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Re: PDF reading order and tag order

for

From: Philip Kiff
Date: Jun 7, 2017 12:30PM

I didn't mean to underplay the importance of making the reading order
make sense to other assistive technology. I honestly didn't know that
the Content order was used for *any* of them! Thanks for the info.

Like Bevi, I strive to get both to sync up wherever possible, and that
is for sure the best practice.

Phil.


On 2017-06-07 14:10, Chagnon | PubCom wrote:
> Yes, good point Jonathan.
>
> Add braille printers to the lineup that use the order panel, not the tags. At least that was the case a couple of years ago when some of our clients with visitors centers were printing braille visitor guides.
>
> Talking with a colleague, it's hard for us to know which technologies use which order and there's no central source of information that covers all of the A.T. on the market today. Plus people might be using older A.T. that could be using the order, not the tags.
>
> Our recommendation: try to get both to synch up, but if you have to compromise, make the tags accurate and the order can slide a bit. Not too much, but a bit.
>
> --Bevi Chagnon
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Jonathan Avila
> Sent: Wednesday, June 7, 2017 1:46 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDF reading order and tag order
>
>> If you were deaf/blind, you'd be using a braille device like a braille keyboard, which most likely would use the Order reading order, not the Tag reading order.
> It is my experience that most refreshable Braille displays are driven by screen readers and that most screen readers use the tag order. The content order does appear to be used by a limited number of tools -- in some situations for the read out loud tool but not other means of navigation with read out loud. It also would likely be used via the reflow option. So both orders are important -- but I'd say the tag order is more often used anything that is in the tag order can be repurposed by other tools more easily such as the VIP Reader and thus is the most important if you couldn't synch them up.
>
> Jonathan
>
> Jonathan Avila
> Chief Accessibility Officer
> SSB BART Group (soon to be Level Access) <EMAIL REMOVED>
> 703.637.8957 (Office)
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>
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>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Chagnon | PubCom
> Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2017 1:07 PM
> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDF reading order and tag order
>
> Quote: "The most important order in an accessible PDF is the tag order viewable in the Tags pane."
>
> I'd say that "most important" is in the mind of the individual!
>
> If you were deaf/blind, you'd be using a braille device like a braille keyboard, which most likely would use the Order reading order, not the Tag reading order.
>
> Many other A.T. for cognitive, neurologic, and mobility disabilities use the Order, too.
>
> Bottom line: both reading orders are important if you want to provide accessibility to all of your users.
>
> --Bevi Chagnon
>
> - - -
> Bevi Chagnon | www.PubCom.com
> Technologists, Consultants, Trainers, Designers, and Developers for publishing & communication
> | Acrobat PDF | Print | EPUBS | Sec. 508 Accessibility |
> - - -
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Philip Kiff
> Sent: Wednesday, June 7, 2017 12:57 PM
> To: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDF reading order and tag order
>
> On 2017-06-07 12:18, Alan Zaitchik wrote:
>> [....]
>> But I have 2 questions.
>> 1. The Acrobat Reading order tool jumps around with little regard (it
>> seems) for my reordering and restructuring the tabs, even though I set
>> my 'Preferences' for reading order to 'Infer from document structure'.
>> Is this bogus? Need I be concerned? When I use the tool to reorder it
>> screws up the tags!
> The Acrobat "Touch Up Reading Order" tool is poorly named and the order shown by the numbers in Acrobat can be misleading until you understand that there is more than one "order" in a PDF.
>
> The most important order in an accessible PDF is the tag order viewable in the Tags pane. The Order pane does not show this order, but instead shows the "Content" order which is based on how the content is actually placed in the file.
>
> Screenreaders use the Tag order. Adobe's built-in Read Aloud feature I think uses the Content order.
>
> To change the Tag order you simply move tags up and down the Tags pane.
> To make the Content order match the Tags order, you can try moving things around in the Order pane or directly in the Content pane itself.
> However, your viewable content and your tags can easily get screwed up if you use the Order pane to move things around, especially if you have any tags nested inside other tags (like Spans or Figures inside P's inside Article's).
>
> The WebAIM site has a pretty good explanation of how to re-order a PDF file here:
> http://webaim.org/techniques/acrobat/acrobat#touchup
>
> I like to think of the Content order as something like the "printing"
> order, because if you start moving these items around you can end up making some items disappear behind others, as though they have been "printed" over by a non-transparent block of text or figure that appears after them in the content order.
>
> If forced to choose, always prioritize getting the tag order right rather than the Order panel order.
>
>> 2. I did indeed create 4 <article> sections but was unsure whether I
>> should group the banner elements in some section or just list them as
>> direct children of <document> ahead of the first <article>. My concern
>> here is to use only well-supported HTML5 tags that will work with JAWS
>> and other screen readers. Is the following structure OK?
>> <Document>
>> <Figure>
>> <H1>
>> <P>
>> <Article>
>> <Article>
>>
>> <Article>
>>
>> <Article>
>>
> Your structure looks okay to me!
>
> Phil.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >