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Re: Trying to find middle ground with a developer

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From: Karl Brown
Date: Aug 10, 2017 9:55AM

I don't know if it would count as a decorative image, but it's not good to
have the caption and the alt attribute filled out.

The guidelines say that there must be a text based alternative for non-text
content. In this case we've got two identical text based alternatives, so
one shouldn't be used. If the alt text isn't being used the attribute does
still need to be there.

I'm glad you've found solutions for the issues, Sarah.

On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 4:52 PM, Swift, Daniel P. < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:

> Follow the link below for an example of 'decorative' images:
> http://webaim.org/techniques/alttext/#decorative
>
> Dan Swift
> Senior Web Specialist
> Enterprise Services
> West Chester University
> 610.738.0589
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On
> Behalf Of Sarah Ferguson
> Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2017 11:40 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Trying to find middle ground with a developer
>
> Sorry, what would be decorative?
>
> As an aside, we've been able to find a solution for both issues.
>
> Sarah Ferguson
> Web Accessibility Specialist
> Department of Digital Communications
> Brandeis University *|* 781.736.4259
> www.brandeis.edu/web-accessibility
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 11:15 AM, Swift, Daniel P. < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> wrote:
>
> > I'm jumping in a little late on this -- is the alt text even needed?
> > In this situation, I would interpret this as "decorative" which means
> > that the empty alt attribute is sufficient ... right?
> >
> > Dan Swift
> > Senior Web Specialist
> > Enterprise Services
> > West Chester University
> > 610.738.0589
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On
> > Behalf Of Sarah Ferguson
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2017 12:08 PM
> > To: WebAIM Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Trying to find middle ground with a developer
> >
> > Hi Ben,
> >
> > I can't promise she wasn't in the middle of working on this when I
> > captured it, but here:
> >
> > <div class="captioned-image-wrap">
> > <figure class="captioned-image left">
> >
> > <img alt="Students in hallway of Schneider Building"
> > src="../../images/upperfordiversitypage.jpg" width="479"/>
> > <figcaption>
> > <a
> > href="../../nrcpd/index.html">
> > Students at Heller are
> > conversing in the hallway
> > </a>
> > </figcaption>
> > </figure>
> >
> > Sarah Ferguson
> > Web Accessibility Specialist
> > Department of Digital Communications
> > Brandeis University *|* 781.736.4259
> > www.brandeis.edu/web-accessibility
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 12:04 PM, Ben Regis < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Sarah
> > >
> > > The double alt reading just seems wrong then - can you copy the bit
> > > of HTML she's used for the figure and image?
> > >
> > > Kind regards
> > >
> > > Ben
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On
> > > Behalf Of Sarah Ferguson
> > > Sent: 08 August 2017 16:49
> > > To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Trying to find middle ground with a developer
> > >
> > > Hi Ben,
> > >
> > > She said that the site that reads better (in my opinion) throws HTML
> > > code flags. That site is still in development, as well. While she
> > > isn't willing to use that code as a solution, she is at least
> > > willing to keep tinkering, so at least there is that.
> > >
> > > I haven't tried the escape key, I will see if that has an effect.
> thanks.
> > >
> > > Regarding the caption, no the caption can be different. The alt text
> > > reads as a description of the whole (called figure), then again
> > > (same alt text) for the image. Then the caption will read.
> > >
> > > Sarah
> > >
> > > Sarah Ferguson
> > > Web Accessibility Specialist
> > > Department of Digital Communications Brandeis University *|*
> > > 781.736.4259 www.brandeis.edu/web-accessibility
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Ben Regis < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Sarah
> > > >
> > > > I'm not a fan of big menus for any site and it sounds like it's
> > > > far too difficult to navigate. You said about another of your
> > > > sites reading the correct number of items and that "She says that
> > > > the code in that site is incorrect, so she won't follow it." - can
> > > > you let me know what the address of that site is - it would be
> > > > interesting to know what she thought was wrong with it.
> > > >
> > > > According to http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#menu the
> > > > Escape key should allow you to exit the menu - at least that way
> > > > the user wouldn't need to navigate back out again.
> > > >
> > > > With the image issue - are you saying that you can't enter
> > > > separate text for the caption? So the caption will just use
> > > > whatever is set for
> > > alt text?
> > > >
> > > > Kind regards
> > > >
> > > > Ben
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]
> > > > On Behalf Of Sarah Ferguson
> > > > Sent: 08 August 2017 15:51
> > > > To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > > > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Trying to find middle ground with a
> > > > developer
> > > >
> > > > Sorry, Ben. It's not live and is on a secured server.
> > > >
> > > > Sarah Ferguson
> > > > Web Accessibility Specialist
> > > > Department of Digital Communications Brandeis University *|*
> > > > 781.736.4259 www.brandeis.edu/web-accessibility
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 7:32 AM, Ben Regis < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Sarah
> > > > >
> > > > > Is it possible to see the website?
> > > > >
> > > > > Kind regards
> > > > >
> > > > > Ben
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]
> > > > > On Behalf Of Sarah Ferguson
> > > > > Sent: 07 August 2017 20:44
> > > > > To: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> > > > > Subject: [WebAIM] Trying to find middle ground with a developer
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi all,
> > > > >
> > > > > We have an outside developer working on one of our sites. I've
> > > > > done a review of the site and she's done a few rounds of fixes.
> > > > > We have a couple of sticking points.
> > > > >
> > > > > **Hamburger menu**
> > > > >
> > > > > The desktop site has a hamburger menu. VoiceOver is reading the
> > > > > menu as "*Navigation
> > > > > 3 items*." The open menu actually has 3 columns with 28 items
> total.
> > > > > You cannot currently navigate column to column, nor are the
> > > > > columns ever differentiated by Voiceover. It's read as one long
> > > > > list. To me, the user hears 3 items and expects 3 items. Getting
> > > > > 28 items at this point is confusing. Furthermore, I feel that
> > > > > someone having to backup through 28 items to close a menu with
> > > > > the toggle that opened it, is
> > > > asking a lot.
> > > > >
> > > > > I would be happy if it either announced 28 items and there was a
> > > > > way to close the menu without backing all the way up, or if the
> > > > > user could navigate column to column and drill into each column
> > > > > (at which point I feel VO should also read the correct number of
> > > > > items in each
> > > column).
> > > > > I've given her another of our sites that reads the actual number
> > > > > of items. It is also much shorter than 28 items, so closing the
> > > > > menu is less of an issue. She says that the code in that site is
> > > > > incorrect, so
> > > > she won't follow it.
> > > > >
> > > > > The main navigation has a similar issue. It is reading as 1 item
> > > > > (being 1 list with several items).
> > > > >
> > > > > *Do you think it is ok to have the navigation menus read the
> > > > > number of lists instead of the number of items? Any ideas for
> > > > > alternate solutions or examples of sites you feel handle
> > > > > hamburger menu very
> > > > > well?*
> > > > >
> > > > > ****
> > > > >
> > > > > **Image and caption**
> > > > >
> > > > > The second issue is the way she coded images with captions.
> > > > > Right now, she has coded the image and caption as a figure in
> HTML5.
> > > > > This is causing the "figure" (the image and caption together) to
> > > > > read the alt text, followed by hearing the alt text again for
> > > > > the image itself and then hearing the caption. I find this
> redundant.
> > > > > She argues it is better, because this tagging method identifies
> > > > > the caption as a caption and not just text. It links the image
> > > > > and caption together. I can see that point, but the redundancy
> > > > > still
> > > bothers me.
> > > > >
> > > > > *What are your thoughts? Do you know of any alternate solutions
> > > > > for making the caption and image be linked and label the caption
> > > > > as such, without the alt text reading twice?*
> > > > >
> > > > > ****
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks!
> > > > > Sarah
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Sarah
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >
> > >
> > > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >
> > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >
> > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >



--
Karl Brown
Twitter: @kbdevelops
Skype: kbdevelopment

Professional Certificate Web Accessibility Compliance (Distinction),
University of South Australia, 2015