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Re: Trying to find middle ground with a developer

for

From: Sarah Ferguson
Date: Aug 10, 2017 9:58AM


If that sample were real, there wouldn't be a caption like that, it would
just be silly.

Sarah Ferguson
Web Accessibility Specialist
Department of Digital Communications
Brandeis University *|* 781.736.4259
www.brandeis.edu/web-accessibility


On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 11:57 AM, Sarah Ferguson < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:

> Sorry, guys, this is a template, it's dummy text, please don't go by the
> example alt text given. the alt text and the caption are not usually the
> same, so we have both being read. This is a mock up and they duplicated the
> text to save time. The real site won't be like that.
>
> Sarah Ferguson
> Web Accessibility Specialist
> Department of Digital Communications
> Brandeis University *|* 781.736.4259 <(781)%20736-4259>
> www.brandeis.edu/web-accessibility
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 11:55 AM, Karl Brown < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>
>> I don't know if it would count as a decorative image, but it's not good to
>> have the caption and the alt attribute filled out.
>>
>> The guidelines say that there must be a text based alternative for
>> non-text
>> content. In this case we've got two identical text based alternatives, so
>> one shouldn't be used. If the alt text isn't being used the attribute does
>> still need to be there.
>>
>> I'm glad you've found solutions for the issues, Sarah.
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 4:52 PM, Swift, Daniel P. < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Follow the link below for an example of 'decorative' images:
>> > http://webaim.org/techniques/alttext/#decorative
>> >
>> > Dan Swift
>> > Senior Web Specialist
>> > Enterprise Services
>> > West Chester University
>> > 610.738.0589
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On
>> > Behalf Of Sarah Ferguson
>> > Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2017 11:40 AM
>> > To: WebAIM Discussion List
>> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Trying to find middle ground with a developer
>> >
>> > Sorry, what would be decorative?
>> >
>> > As an aside, we've been able to find a solution for both issues.
>> >
>> > Sarah Ferguson
>> > Web Accessibility Specialist
>> > Department of Digital Communications
>> > Brandeis University *|* 781.736.4259
>> > www.brandeis.edu/web-accessibility
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 11:15 AM, Swift, Daniel P. < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > I'm jumping in a little late on this -- is the alt text even needed?
>> > > In this situation, I would interpret this as "decorative" which means
>> > > that the empty alt attribute is sufficient ... right?
>> > >
>> > > Dan Swift
>> > > Senior Web Specialist
>> > > Enterprise Services
>> > > West Chester University
>> > > 610.738.0589
>> > >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On
>> > > Behalf Of Sarah Ferguson
>> > > Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2017 12:08 PM
>> > > To: WebAIM Discussion List
>> > > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Trying to find middle ground with a developer
>> > >
>> > > Hi Ben,
>> > >
>> > > I can't promise she wasn't in the middle of working on this when I
>> > > captured it, but here:
>> > >
>> > > <div class="captioned-image-wrap">
>> > > <figure class="captioned-image left">
>> > >
>> > > <img alt="Students in hallway of Schneider Building"
>> > > src="../../images/upperfordiversitypage.jpg" width="479"/>
>> > > <figcaption>
>> > > <a
>> > > href="../../nrcpd/index.html">
>> > > Students at Heller are
>> > > conversing in the hallway
>> > > </a>
>> > > </figcaption>
>> > > </figure>
>> > >
>> > > Sarah Ferguson
>> > > Web Accessibility Specialist
>> > > Department of Digital Communications
>> > > Brandeis University *|* 781.736.4259
>> > > www.brandeis.edu/web-accessibility
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 12:04 PM, Ben Regis < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Hi Sarah
>> > > >
>> > > > The double alt reading just seems wrong then - can you copy the bit
>> > > > of HTML she's used for the figure and image?
>> > > >
>> > > > Kind regards
>> > > >
>> > > > Ben
>> > > >
>> > > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On
>> > > > Behalf Of Sarah Ferguson
>> > > > Sent: 08 August 2017 16:49
>> > > > To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> > > > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Trying to find middle ground with a developer
>> > > >
>> > > > Hi Ben,
>> > > >
>> > > > She said that the site that reads better (in my opinion) throws HTML
>> > > > code flags. That site is still in development, as well. While she
>> > > > isn't willing to use that code as a solution, she is at least
>> > > > willing to keep tinkering, so at least there is that.
>> > > >
>> > > > I haven't tried the escape key, I will see if that has an effect.
>> > thanks.
>> > > >
>> > > > Regarding the caption, no the caption can be different. The alt text
>> > > > reads as a description of the whole (called figure), then again
>> > > > (same alt text) for the image. Then the caption will read.
>> > > >
>> > > > Sarah
>> > > >
>> > > > Sarah Ferguson
>> > > > Web Accessibility Specialist
>> > > > Department of Digital Communications Brandeis University *|*
>> > > > 781.736.4259 www.brandeis.edu/web-accessibility
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Ben Regis < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> > wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > Hi Sarah
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I'm not a fan of big menus for any site and it sounds like it's
>> > > > > far too difficult to navigate. You said about another of your
>> > > > > sites reading the correct number of items and that "She says that
>> > > > > the code in that site is incorrect, so she won't follow it." - can
>> > > > > you let me know what the address of that site is - it would be
>> > > > > interesting to know what she thought was wrong with it.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > According to http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#menu the
>> > > > > Escape key should allow you to exit the menu - at least that way
>> > > > > the user wouldn't need to navigate back out again.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > With the image issue - are you saying that you can't enter
>> > > > > separate text for the caption? So the caption will just use
>> > > > > whatever is set for
>> > > > alt text?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Kind regards
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Ben
>> > > > >
>> > > > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > > > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]
>> > > > > On Behalf Of Sarah Ferguson
>> > > > > Sent: 08 August 2017 15:51
>> > > > > To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> > > > > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Trying to find middle ground with a
>> > > > > developer
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Sorry, Ben. It's not live and is on a secured server.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Sarah Ferguson
>> > > > > Web Accessibility Specialist
>> > > > > Department of Digital Communications Brandeis University *|*
>> > > > > 781.736.4259 www.brandeis.edu/web-accessibility
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 7:32 AM, Ben Regis < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> > wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > Hi Sarah
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Is it possible to see the website?
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Kind regards
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Ben
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > > > > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> ]
>> > > > > > On Behalf Of Sarah Ferguson
>> > > > > > Sent: 07 August 2017 20:44
>> > > > > > To: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> > > > > > Subject: [WebAIM] Trying to find middle ground with a developer
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Hi all,
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > We have an outside developer working on one of our sites. I've
>> > > > > > done a review of the site and she's done a few rounds of fixes.
>> > > > > > We have a couple of sticking points.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > **Hamburger menu**
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > The desktop site has a hamburger menu. VoiceOver is reading the
>> > > > > > menu as "*Navigation
>> > > > > > 3 items*." The open menu actually has 3 columns with 28 items
>> > total.
>> > > > > > You cannot currently navigate column to column, nor are the
>> > > > > > columns ever differentiated by Voiceover. It's read as one long
>> > > > > > list. To me, the user hears 3 items and expects 3 items. Getting
>> > > > > > 28 items at this point is confusing. Furthermore, I feel that
>> > > > > > someone having to backup through 28 items to close a menu with
>> > > > > > the toggle that opened it, is
>> > > > > asking a lot.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > I would be happy if it either announced 28 items and there was a
>> > > > > > way to close the menu without backing all the way up, or if the
>> > > > > > user could navigate column to column and drill into each column
>> > > > > > (at which point I feel VO should also read the correct number of
>> > > > > > items in each
>> > > > column).
>> > > > > > I've given her another of our sites that reads the actual number
>> > > > > > of items. It is also much shorter than 28 items, so closing the
>> > > > > > menu is less of an issue. She says that the code in that site is
>> > > > > > incorrect, so
>> > > > > she won't follow it.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > The main navigation has a similar issue. It is reading as 1 item
>> > > > > > (being 1 list with several items).
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > *Do you think it is ok to have the navigation menus read the
>> > > > > > number of lists instead of the number of items? Any ideas for
>> > > > > > alternate solutions or examples of sites you feel handle
>> > > > > > hamburger menu very
>> > > > > > well?*
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > ****
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > **Image and caption**
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > The second issue is the way she coded images with captions.
>> > > > > > Right now, she has coded the image and caption as a figure in
>> > HTML5.
>> > > > > > This is causing the "figure" (the image and caption together) to
>> > > > > > read the alt text, followed by hearing the alt text again for
>> > > > > > the image itself and then hearing the caption. I find this
>> > redundant.
>> > > > > > She argues it is better, because this tagging method identifies
>> > > > > > the caption as a caption and not just text. It links the image
>> > > > > > and caption together. I can see that point, but the redundancy
>> > > > > > still
>> > > > bothers me.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > *What are your thoughts? Do you know of any alternate solutions
>> > > > > > for making the caption and image be linked and label the caption
>> > > > > > as such, without the alt text reading twice?*
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > ****
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Thanks!
>> > > > > > Sarah
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Sarah
>> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> > > > > > >> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> > > > > > >> > > > > >
>> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> > > > > >> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> > > > > >> > > > >
>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> > > > >> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> > > > >> > > >
>> > > >> > > >> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> > > >> > >
>> > >> > >> archives
>> > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Karl Brown
>> Twitter: @kbdevelops
>> Skype: kbdevelopment
>>
>> Professional Certificate Web Accessibility Compliance (Distinction),
>> University of South Australia, 2015
>> >> >> >> >>
>
>