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Re: WCAG and role="presentation"

for

From: Sailesh Panchang
Date: Aug 23, 2017 9:35AM

Yes but that's a validation issue not within the scope of SC 4.1.1 ...
just like using scope attribute on a TD. Not good practice from HTML5
code quality point of view.
Thanks,

On 8/23/17, Steve Faulkner < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> Note: It is a HTML5 conformance error
>
> If a table is to be used for layout it must be marked with the attribute
>> role="presentation" for a user agent to properly represent the table to
>> an assistive technology and to properly convey the intent of the author to
>> tools that wish to extract tabular data from the document.
>>
> http://w3c.github.io/html/tabular-data.html#the-table-element
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Regards
>
> SteveF
> Current Standards Work @W3C
> <http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2015/03/current-standards-work-at-w3c/>;
>
> On 23 August 2017 at 15:37, Sailesh Panchang < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> wrote:
>
>> This does not fail WCAG 2.0 as others before me point out. I term it
>> as a best practice that enhance user experience for SR users. This was
>> one of the examples in my CSUN 2016 presentation that attempted to
>> define the term accessibility best practices.
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> On 8/23/17, Jonathan Avila < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>> >> Let's also keep in mind that using role="presentation" is easy.
>> >
>> > While I think we'd all agree that it is best to use role presentation --
>> the
>> > question is whether it is a violation of WCAG. If table markup is not
>> used
>> > with TH, scope or other header association markup then the table is not
>> > identifying header cells and it can be programmatically determined that
>> the
>> > table is a layout table. Since WCAG 2 was written without relying on
>> ARIA
>> > and was written before the ARIA spec was finalized -- the supporting
>> > document seem to indicate that it's not a failure of WCAG as long as not
>> > using role presentation is accessibility supported. However we don't
>> have
>> > specific guidance on this and others are likely to disagree.
>> >
>> > Ideally these are the types of things that need to be clearly defined in
>> > supporting documents so we can achieve consistency with testing tools
>> > and
>> > with conformance evaluations. Questions such as this can be raised
>> > with
>> > the Accessibility Guidelines Working Group on Github
>> > (https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues). If you feel strongly about
>> something
>> > it might be helpful to put together a suggested failure technique --
>> > although getting failure techniques accepted has been proven difficult.
>> >
>> > Jonathan
>> >
>> > Jonathan Avila
>> > Chief Accessibility Officer
>> > Level Access, inc. (formerly SSB BART Group, inc.)
>> > (703) 637-8957
>> > <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> > Visit us online: Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog
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>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On
>> Behalf
>> > Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
>> > Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 9:28 AM
>> > To: Lovely, Brian (CONT) < <EMAIL REMOVED> >; WebAIM
>> Discussion
>> > List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] WCAG and role="presentation"
>> >
>> > Well put Brian.
>> > Let's also keep in mind that using role="presentation" is easy.
>> > You add this attribute where appropriate. It does not trigger additional
>> > functionality testing(except with a screen reader) and it does not
>> > change
>> > the webpage appearance so you don't have to get designers involved.
>> >
>> > And if you are consistently using a semantic element to achieve a
>> > certain
>> > appearance (or for other non semantic purposes), you really should take
>> > a
>> > look at the design in general (if you have that luxury) to figure out
>> why.
>> > It may have other consequences, or break after user agent updates.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 8/23/17, Lovely, Brian (CONT) via WebAIM-Forum
>> > < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>> >> I would call out a page for a table containing non-tabular data.
>> >>
>> >> The role of presentation strips an element of its semantic meaning
>> >> (essentially converting it to the equivalent of a non-semantic
>> >> container like a div or span). The semantic meaning of elements is an
>> >> important part of accessibility, particularly actionable elements. Use
>> >> of the correct semantic element provides information about the type of
>> >> information presented, and how the element can be successfully
>> >> interacted with. I'm not always a "slippery slope" kind of guy, but
>> >> once you start to erode the trust in the semantic information you
>> >> present, the user really doesn't know what to expect and must take the
>> >> extra time and energy to determine if elements are actually what they
>> >> are presenting themselves to be, and if those elements actually behave
>> as
>> >> expected.
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On
>> >> Behalf Of Peter Shikli
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2017 5:33 PM
>> >> To: WebAIM Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> >> Subject: [WebAIM] WCAG and role="presentation"
>> >>
>> >> My question is whether it is a violation to not use
>> >> role="presentation" on elements which are used for presentation
>> >> purposes only, such as tables. I realize we should use it for
>> >> decorative tables, but is it a requirement for a Level AA rating per
>> >> WCAG Success Guideline 1.3.1 "Info and Relationships"?
>> >>
>> >> Understanding WCAG 2.0, http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/
>> >> states that when possible, information presented visually should also
>> >> be made available programmatically. Many examples are given, but I
>> >> would like some clarification specifically on the use of WAI-ARIA's
>> >> role="presentation."
>> >>
>> >> Sincerely,
>> >> Peter Shikli
>> >> <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> >> 503-570-6831
>> >> FAX: 213-337-7029
>> >> Access2online
>> >> 29030 SW Town Center Loop East
>> >> Suite 202-187
>> >> Wilsonville, OR 97070
>> >> www.Access2online.com
>> >> Prison inmates helping websites become accessible
>> >>
>> >>
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>> >> >> >> >> >>
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>> > --
>> > Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
>> > >> > >> archives at
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>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sailesh Panchang
>> Principal Accessibility Consultant
>> Deque Systems Inc
>> Phone 703-225-0380 ext 105
>> Mobile: 571-344-1765
>> >> >> >> >>
> > > > >


--
Sailesh Panchang
Principal Accessibility Consultant
Deque Systems Inc
Phone 703-225-0380 ext 105
Mobile: 571-344-1765