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Thread: text links on a separate page - compliant with 508?

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From: Schuffman, Jan (General Services - ADA)
Date: Mon, Jan 10 2005 1:35PM
Subject: text links on a separate page - compliant with 508?
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I've been working with a webmaster on a particular site, trying to help
him get it into compliance with Section 508. One problem it had was that
the navigation was done with Javascript, and we had at least one blind
user who called to complain that there were no navigation links on the
page (her screenreader didn't recognize them).

I talked with that webmaster about adding text links to the bottom of
the page, with a link to them at the top. He understood the idea. What
he's done, however, is create a page with content that's just a
collection of text links to the various pages on the site (not quite a
site map page, but close). Each page on his site now has "Access Text
Links" in an appropriate place at the top, and it goes to that new page.

This is the first time I've seen it done this way, as opposed to a
collection of text links on each page. Does anyone have any experience,
educated guesses, intuition, etc., as to whether this would pass muster,
especially with 508? Paragraph (l) [lower case L] says: "...if a web
page uses a script to create a graphic map of menu choices when the user
moves the pointer over an icon, the web site designer may be required to
incorporate "redundant text links" that match the menu choices because
functional text for each menu choice cannot be rendered to the assistive
technology." But it doesn't appear to address whether those redundant
text links must appear on each page or would be acceptable on a page of
their own.

What do you think?
-Jan

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Mon, Jan 10 2005 1:45PM
Subject: Re: text links on a separate page - compliant with 508?
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jan.schuffman wrote:
> I've been working with a webmaster on a particular site, trying to help
> him get it into compliance with Section 508. One problem it had was that
> the navigation was done with Javascript,

Crikey, I thought javascript based navigation systems died sometime
around 1998...

Seriously though, this webmaster may want to look at better, more
modern, and gracefully degrading alternatives like Brothercake's UDM
http://www.brothercake.com/site/products/menu/ (commercial), Suckerfish
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/dropdowns/ or Son of Suckerfish
http://www.htmldog.com/articles/suckerfish/dropdowns/

--
Patrick H. Lauke
_____________________________________________________
re

From: Austin, Darrel
Date: Mon, Jan 10 2005 3:53PM
Subject: Re: text links on a separate page - compliant with 508?
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> Crikey, I thought javascript based navigation systems died sometime
> around 1998...

As long as Macromedia keeps releasing Dreamweaver and Firefox with their
bloated, inaccssible javscript-based fly-out menu creation wizards, I don't
think we'll be seeing an end to them anytime soon.

Also, people tend to forget that they can not only be inaccessible to screen
readers, but also PDA users, text browser users, keyboard users and those
with motor control issues.

> Seriously though, this webmaster may want to look at better, more
> modern, and gracefully degrading alternatives like Brothercake's UDM
> http://www.brothercake.com/site/products/menu/ (commercial),
> Suckerfish http://www.alistapart.com/articles/dropdowns/ or Son of
> Suckerfish http://www.htmldog.com/articles/suckerfish/dropdowns/

Just to add to the list, this is another option:

http://projectseven.com/

Point being javascript fly-out menus aren't by default inaccessible, it's
just that there's a lot of poorly built ones out there that are.

I do agree with you, though, that a list of text links at the bottom of the
page would make things better than they currently are. By putting them on
every page, it'd be one less page people have to jump to to get through the
site.

-Darrel

From: reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references;
Date: Wed, Mar 02 2005 3:55AM
Subject: Re: text links on a separate page - compliant with 508?
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Javascript flyout menus are still very popular. Another way to help
make them accessible is to place all the the child links on a seperate
page when the parent is clicked on.
-Lisa

On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:47:59 -0600, darrel.austin
wrote:
>
> > Crikey, I thought javascript based navigation systems died sometime
> > around 1998...
>
> As long as Macromedia keeps releasing Dreamweaver and Firefox with their
> bloated, inaccssible javscript-based fly-out menu creation wizards, I don't
> think we'll be seeing an end to them anytime soon.
>
> Also, people tend to forget that they can not only be inaccessible to screen
> readers, but also PDA users, text browser users, keyboard users and those
> with motor control issues.
>
> > Seriously though, this webmaster may want to look at better, more
> > modern, and gracefully degrading alternatives like Brothercake's UDM
> > http://www.brothercake.com/site/products/menu/ (commercial),
> > Suckerfish http://www.alistapart.com/articles/dropdowns/ or Son of
> > Suckerfish http://www.htmldog.com/articles/suckerfish/dropdowns/
>
> Just to add to the list, this is another option:
>
> http://projectseven.com/
>
> Point being javascript fly-out menus aren't by default inaccessible, it's
> just that there's a lot of poorly built ones out there that are.
>
> I do agree with you, though, that a list of text links at the bottom of the
> page would make things better than they currently are. By putting them on
> every page, it'd be one less page people have to jump to to get through the
> site.
>
> -Darrel
>
> ----
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>

From: Chris Heilmann
Date: Wed, Mar 02 2005 4:16AM
Subject: Re: text links on a separate page - compliant with 508?
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> Javascript flyout menus are still very popular. Another way to help
> make them accessible is to place all the the child links on a seperate
> page when the parent is clicked on.
> -Lisa

Well, that makes them better, but still not really accessible. Technical
accessibility is one thing, usable accessibility is another.

I did my own script http://www.onlinetools.org/tools/yadm/ which takes a
simple nested list and turns it into these navigations - both keyboard
and mouse accessible - something the CSS-only solutions lack.

In any case, these menus all cater for the high end user, as

1) Non-Javascript users get all the navigation of the site on each page -
this can be confusing and is useless markup. An example is
http://www.dabs.com/uk - Do you feel like tabbing through 230 links?

2) They don't have a "you are here" state in the navigation, especially
when they are multi level.

3) Generally, they make the current page link to itself, which is a bad idea.

There is a lot more, collected here:
http://www.icant.co.uk/forreview/dynamicelements/

Ironically, a really clever dynamic navigation should only give the
necessary navigation to the low end user and add the other only when
JavaScript is available, this will offer high end users the shortcut
functionality these navigations are meant to offer and not overwhelm the
low end users with lots of links they don't need.

Sadly enough it seems to be more important for a lot of developers to make
their navigations look flashy rather than usable.

--
Chris Heilmann
Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/

From: Michael D. Roush
Date: Wed, Mar 02 2005 12:19PM
Subject: Re: text links on a separate page - compliant with 508?
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: Ironically, a really clever dynamic navigation should only give the
: necessary navigation to the low end user and add the other only when
: JavaScript is available, this will offer high end users the shortcut
: functionality these navigations are meant to offer and not overwhelm the
: low end users with lots of links they don't need.

....or perhaps better, a really clever dynamic navigation should make the
'necessary' navigation come first, and make the other skippable, not wholly
eliminated based on whether or not JavaScript is available?

Michael Roush,
Hopewell SERRC

From: Michael D. Roush
Date: Wed, Mar 02 2005 12:19PM
Subject: Re: text links on a separate page - compliant with 508?
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From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Wed, Mar 02 2005 1:50PM
Subject: Re: text links on a separate page - compliant with 508?
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mroush wrote:

>: Ironically, a really clever dynamic navigation should only give the
>: necessary navigation to the low end user and add the other only when
>: JavaScript is available, this will offer high end users the shortcut
>: functionality these navigations are meant to offer and not overwhelm the
>: low end users with lots of links they don't need.
>
>...or perhaps better, a really clever dynamic navigation should make the
>'necessary' navigation come first, and make the other skippable, not wholly
>eliminated based on whether or not JavaScript is available?
>
>
>
That'll make it hard to keep a connection between the links though. A
nested list tells me which links belong to which main section, listing
the main sections first and the sub sections later will make it more
confusing.

From: Michael D. Roush
Date: Wed, Mar 02 2005 2:23PM
Subject: Re: text links on a separate page - compliant with 508?
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----- Original Message -----
From: "lists38"
To: "WebAIM Discussion List"
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 4:24 PM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] text links on a separate page - compliant with 508?

:
: mroush wrote:
:
: >: Ironically, a really clever dynamic navigation should only give the
: >: necessary navigation to the low end user and add the other only when
: >: JavaScript is available, this will offer high end users the shortcut
: >: functionality these navigations are meant to offer and not overwhelm
the
: >: low end users with lots of links they don't need.
: >
: >...or perhaps better, a really clever dynamic navigation should make the
: >'necessary' navigation come first, and make the other skippable, not
wholly
: >eliminated based on whether or not JavaScript is available?
: >
: >
: >
: That'll make it hard to keep a connection between the links though. A
: nested list tells me which links belong to which main section, listing
: the main sections first and the sub sections later will make it more
: confusing.

True, that is a potential problem. Given that we are talking about a
situation where there are 100 links or more, and let's say, grouped into 10
groups of 10. How about this....?

The first list is of the 10 groups. The next 10 lists are each of the 10
groups. The first group is named "top", each subsequent group is named
something like the group it is in. In the "top" list, each list item is one
of the 10 groups, and the text is a link to that group.

In each of the 10 "group" lists, the first 10 list items are the links that
belong in the group. Then, the final list item(s) are navigational in
nature ("Previous Group (named)", "Top", "Next Group (named)").

I'm just sorta brainstorming, but it seems like a reasonable way to go for a
very large group of links.

From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Wed, Mar 02 2005 2:35PM
Subject: Re: text links on a separate page - compliant with 508?
← Previous message | Next message →

>: That'll make it hard to keep a connection between the links though. A
>: nested list tells me which links belong to which main section, listing
>: the main sections first and the sub sections later will make it more
>: confusing.
>
>True, that is a potential problem. Given that we are talking about a
>situation where there are 100 links or more, and let's say, grouped into 10
>groups of 10. How about this....?
>
>The first list is of the 10 groups. The next 10 lists are each of the 10
>groups. The first group is named "top", each subsequent group is named
>something like the group it is in. In the "top" list, each list item is one
>of the 10 groups, and the text is a link to that group.
>
>In each of the 10 "group" lists, the first 10 list items are the links that
>belong in the group. Then, the final list item(s) are navigational in
>nature ("Previous Group (named)", "Top", "Next Group (named)").
>
>I'm just sorta brainstorming, but it seems like a reasonable way to go for a
>very large group of links.
>
>
How usable is a very very large group of links though? What you are
talking about is a portal/catalogue yahoo style.
Yes, the way you described it does make sense. However, a search is in
this case a much better option, or a drill down into categories.
I'd really like to see user numbers on links in catalogues compared to
search engine users. Personally I can never be bothered searching for
links, I either try type-ahead or the search directly.

A lot of "we need this navigation" works together with "we need to add
all that onto the page", whereas the "as a visitor, I want this" is
another issue.

Currently I am working on a redesign of a council web sites. Councils
are required by their own guidelines to offer 152 different services and
make information about them available on the web site. A lot of
council web sites list the top 29 categories as the navigation,
including the one we redesign. The user numbers are abysmal and the
calls by phone many. Our first step was to ditch the 29 categories and
offer group-oriented navigation: "council xyz for seniors, for teens,
for parents" and so on, and voila, the first two rounds of usability
testing showed 90% satisfactory results in tasks.

It is tempting to go technical with navigation, but the most important
thing is to realise who it is for.

From: Michael D. Roush
Date: Wed, Mar 02 2005 3:46PM
Subject: Re: text links on a separate page - compliant with 508?
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----- Original Message -----
From: "lists38"
To: "WebAIM Discussion List"
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 5:09 PM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] text links on a separate page - compliant with 508?
: >
: How usable is a very very large group of links though? What you are
: talking about is a portal/catalogue yahoo style.
: Yes, the way you described it does make sense. However, a search is in
: this case a much better option, or a drill down into categories.
: I'd really like to see user numbers on links in catalogues compared to
: search engine users. Personally I can never be bothered searching for
: links, I either try type-ahead or the search directly.

Absolutely. I'm right with you on this. A very very large group of links
is, by itself, cumbersome. However, a text-based site map can often be a
great help - not only for users who like to get a layout of all the pages on
a site and find the one they want to go to from there, but for designers who
are forced to ask themselves "Where does this new page I just created fit in
the logical scheme of my site?" The site map would be the ONLY page on a
site that I can see myself ever thinking should have such a huge number of
links on it. Tons of links will never be easy to manage or navigate, but at
least some steps can be taken to make them easier to work with.

Having a site-wide search function available on your site (on every page,
too) is also, imho, at least a potential benefit in regards to accessibility
and usability. Quality site-wide search functions are few and far between,
however, and thus aren't necessarily easily recognized. I don't like the
site-wide search functions that just say "Search" above the input box,
instead of "Search this Site". The first few I saw (such as the ones
powered by Google), I mistook for Internet-wide search boxes incorporated
into other pages.

Michael Roush,
Hopewell SERRC

From: Robinson, Norman B - Washington, DC
Date: Thu, Mar 03 2005 7:04AM
Subject: Re: text links on a separate page - compliant with 508?
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All,
From the most recent "Javascript flyout menus are still very
popular. Another way to help make them accessible is to place all the
child links on a separate page when the parent is clicked on. -Lisa"
comment, I just wanted to mention I recommend that developers always use
a navigation system or technology that is most accessible.

A view from the U.S. Section 508:

1. You should always include information in the scripting itself
that indicates what it does.
(Subpart B -- Technical Standards 1194.22 Web-based
intranet and internet information and applications "When pages
utilize scripting languages to display content, or to create interface
elements, the information provided by the script shall be identified
with functional text that can be read by assistive technology."

2. You should use caution when thinking about an alternate text
version; an alternate shouldn't be necessary if you have made your
primary content accessible! Specifically I'll draw your attention to
"when compliance cannot be accomplished IN ANY OTHER WAY", which is
sometimes incorrectly interpreted to be "create a text version to solve
your accessibility problems".
(Subpart B -- Technical Standards (1194.22) Web-based intranet
and internet information and applications, Paragraph (k): "A text-only
page, with equivalent information or functionality, shall be provided to
make a web site comply with the provisions of this part, when compliance
cannot be accomplished in any other way. The content of the text-only
page shall be updated whenever the primary page changes.")

I know Lisa didn't mention specifics, just a caution when
providing "alternates" to ensure you've figured out the technology and
know how to best apply it before going to a separate 'duplicate'
process.

Regards,

Norman B. Robinson
Section 508 Coordinator
IT Governance, US Postal Service
--------------------------------
AS-508, Section 508 Handbook in HTML:
http://www.usps.com/cpim/ftp/hand/as508/welcome.htm
AS-508-A, Section 508 Technical Reference Guide in HTML:
http://www.usps.com/cpim/ftp/hand/as508a/welcome.htm

From: Terence de Giere
Date: Thu, Mar 03 2005 8:15PM
Subject: Re: text links on a separate page - compliant with 508?
← Previous message | Next message →

Lisa at = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:

Javascript flyout menus are still very popular. Another way to help make them accessible is to place all the the child links on a seperate page when the parent is clicked on. (The original post of this thread was in January)

----

When deciding on a navigation scheme, JavaScript or not, there are other
factors in the choice besides accessibility. About a year and a half ago
Dr. Kath Straub at Human Factors International collected and summarized
a number of research papers on site navigation design.

While these studies focus on visual design and navigation, the summaries
following seem to indicate for the most part that sequential rather than
expandable menus would be the best solution for both accessibility and
general navigation, because navigation is essentially sequential for
aural rendition of web pages, and sequential menus would appear to have
the edge for general navigation by typical users.

One problem with expandable menus which are accessible, is the number of
links presented to the impaired user can be overwhelming, making it
difficult to get to the next level of the site. One certainly expects
lots of links on a site map page, but it is usually less appropriate for
home pages on public sites that will likely have many first-time visitors.

Dr. Straub's summaries of research on site navigation:

1. Although deeper sites tend to be more challenging for users to
navigate, there is a tradeoff between depth and breadth (number of
choices per level) in speed of finding. (Bernard, 2002)
2. Structures that have multiple levels should concentrate site
navigation information at the first level and at the level closest
to the ultimate content pages (or terminal nodes). (Bernard, 2002)
3. Providing a visible sitemap facilitates site learning and
encourages comprehensive exploration of a site. (Danielson, 2002)
4. Less than half of users take advantage of breadcrumbs (even when
most report having noticed them). (Lida, Hull and Pilcher, 2002)
5. Under click-stream analysis, breadcrumbs are not more efficient
than other approaches to navigation. (Lida, Hull and Pilcher, 2002)

6. Expandable menus are slower to navigate than sequential menus.
This is particularly true when users are deeper in a site.
(Zaphiris, Schneiderman & Norman, 2002)
7. Sequential menus helps users develop a better sense of orientation
within a site. (Zaphiris, Schneiderman & Norman, 2002)
8. Users scan group labels within indexed content. (Hornoff and
Halverson, 2003)
9. When users have expectations about where desired information will
appear on the next screen, they move their eyes there in
anticipation while the screen paints. (Hornoff and Halverson, 2003)
10. Indexed menus and vertical menus are preferred over horizontal
menus (in absolute, not statistically significant, terms).
(Bernard and Habmlin, 2002)

11. Users preference tends toward indexed menus over vertical or
horizontal menus. (Bernard and Habmlin, 2002)
12. For searching tasks, pull-down menus provide fastest performance
[presumably sighted users without coordination problems]. For
browsing tasks, combined global / local navigation provides
fastest performance. (Yu and Roth, 2002)
13. Presenting short summaries with text links helps users understand
and predict the content associated with the link. (Baker, Bernard
& Riley, 2002)
14. Users only perceive / encode (change in) elements of the display
that they are directly focused on. (Simon & Chabris, 1999)
15. Research comparing navigation efficiency through sites of varying
depths and breadths broadly converges on the findings that users
find roughly 16 (ungrouped) top-level links leading into 2-3
subsequent menus the most efficient, learnable and least error
prone. [Dr. Straub's comment on this research]

Whether or not JavaScript menus ultimately legally comply with Section
508 is just part of the conumdrum in designing effective, easy-to-use
navigation for a site.

Terence de Giere

= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references;
Date: Sun, Mar 06 2005 9:47PM
Subject: Re: text links on a separate page - compliant with 508?
← Previous message | No next message

I would avoid using javascript for anything personally, but
unfortunately, not all developers see it that way, and at the end of
the day "the customer is always right". All you can do is advise them
on the best approach.

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:14:47 -0500, terence wrote:
>
> Lisa at = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:
>
> Javascript flyout menus are still very popular. Another way to help make them accessible is to place all the the child links on a seperate page when the parent is clicked on. (The original post of this thread was in January)
>
> ----
>
> When deciding on a navigation scheme, JavaScript or not, there are other
> factors in the choice besides accessibility. About a year and a half ago
> Dr. Kath Straub at Human Factors International collected and summarized
> a number of research papers on site navigation design.
>
> While these studies focus on visual design and navigation, the summaries
> following seem to indicate for the most part that sequential rather than
> expandable menus would be the best solution for both accessibility and
> general navigation, because navigation is essentially sequential for
> aural rendition of web pages, and sequential menus would appear to have
> the edge for general navigation by typical users.
>
> One problem with expandable menus which are accessible, is the number of
> links presented to the impaired user can be overwhelming, making it
> difficult to get to the next level of the site. One certainly expects
> lots of links on a site map page, but it is usually less appropriate for
> home pages on public sites that will likely have many first-time visitors.
>
> Dr. Straub's summaries of research on site navigation:
>
> 1. Although deeper sites tend to be more challenging for users to
> navigate, there is a tradeoff between depth and breadth (number of
> choices per level) in speed of finding. (Bernard, 2002)
> 2. Structures that have multiple levels should concentrate site
> navigation information at the first level and at the level closest
> to the ultimate content pages (or terminal nodes). (Bernard, 2002)
> 3. Providing a visible sitemap facilitates site learning and
> encourages comprehensive exploration of a site. (Danielson, 2002)
> 4. Less than half of users take advantage of breadcrumbs (even when
> most report having noticed them). (Lida, Hull and Pilcher, 2002)
> 5. Under click-stream analysis, breadcrumbs are not more efficient
> than other approaches to navigation. (Lida, Hull and Pilcher, 2002)
>
> 6. Expandable menus are slower to navigate than sequential menus.
> This is particularly true when users are deeper in a site.
> (Zaphiris, Schneiderman & Norman, 2002)
> 7. Sequential menus helps users develop a better sense of orientation
> within a site. (Zaphiris, Schneiderman & Norman, 2002)
> 8. Users scan group labels within indexed content. (Hornoff and
> Halverson, 2003)
> 9. When users have expectations about where desired information will
> appear on the next screen, they move their eyes there in
> anticipation while the screen paints. (Hornoff and Halverson, 2003)
> 10. Indexed menus and vertical menus are preferred over horizontal
> menus (in absolute, not statistically significant, terms).
> (Bernard and Habmlin, 2002)
>
> 11. Users preference tends toward indexed menus over vertical or
> horizontal menus. (Bernard and Habmlin, 2002)
> 12. For searching tasks, pull-down menus provide fastest performance
> [presumably sighted users without coordination problems]. For
> browsing tasks, combined global / local navigation provides
> fastest performance. (Yu and Roth, 2002)
> 13. Presenting short summaries with text links helps users understand
> and predict the content associated with the link. (Baker, Bernard
> & Riley, 2002)
> 14. Users only perceive / encode (change in) elements of the display
> that they are directly focused on. (Simon & Chabris, 1999)
> 15. Research comparing navigation efficiency through sites of varying
> depths and breadths broadly converges on the findings that users
> find roughly 16 (ungrouped) top-level links leading into 2-3
> subsequent menus the most efficient, learnable and least error
> prone. [Dr. Straub's comment on this research]
>
> Whether or not JavaScript menus ultimately legally comply with Section
> 508 is just part of the conumdrum in designing effective, easy-to-use
> navigation for a site.
>
> Terence de Giere
>
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
> ----
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>