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Thread: Simple layout tables
Number of posts in this thread: 12 (In chronological order)
From: ben morrison
Date: Fri, Jul 08 2005 3:59AM
Subject: Simple layout tables
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Im a CSS developer and always build sites with CSS positioning.
However there are occasions when the design/budget would suit a very
simple 3 column table - due to flexible column designs (min-max
width). Whats the general consensus on using such a table and does
that affect accessibility. I know there are javascript workarounds for
min-max width in IE.
ben
From: Pat Richard
Date: Fri, Jul 08 2005 7:46AM
Subject: RE: Simple layout tables
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For me, I would try NOT to use tables. One of the things I did not too
long ago was create a bare-bones three column template using CSS. I keep
it handy in case I need to whip something up quick.
However, I can certainly see where budget and time constraints would
push you in that direction.....
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of ben morrison
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 6:00 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: [WebAIM] Simple layout tables
Im a CSS developer and always build sites with CSS positioning.
However there are occasions when the design/budget would suit a very
simple 3 column table - due to flexible column designs (min-max width).
Whats the general consensus on using such a table and does that affect
accessibility. I know there are javascript workarounds for min-max width
in IE.
ben
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From: CFIT@list.webaim.org:Joshue O Connor
Date: Fri, Jul 08 2005 7:55AM
Subject: Re: Simple layout tables
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Hi Ben,
I agree with Pat and if you are stuck and in need of a quick solution
have a look at
http://www.glish.com/css/home.asp
Check out the "Quick Links to the Layouts" section - Its great.
HTH
Joshue O Connor
Web Accessibility Consultant
**Centre for Inclusive Technology (CFIT)* * National Council for the
Blind of Ireland
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = +353 1 8821915
From: Pat Richard
Date: Fri, Jul 08 2005 8:02AM
Subject: RE: Simple layout tables
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Yep - Glish stuff is way cool. In fact, the template I created uses his
three column Holy Grail.
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Joshue O
Connor
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 9:55 AM
To: ben morrison; WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Simple layout tables
Hi Ben,
I agree with Pat and if you are stuck and in need of a quick solution
have a look at
http://www.glish.com/css/home.asp
Check out the "Quick Links to the Layouts" section - Its great.
HTH
Joshue O Connor
Web Accessibility Consultant
**Centre for Inclusive Technology (CFIT)* * National Council for the
Blind of Ireland
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = +353 1 8821915
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From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Fri, Jul 08 2005 8:11AM
Subject: Re: Simple layout tables
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On 7/8/05, Pat Richard < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Yep - Glish stuff is way cool. In fact, the template I created uses his
> three column Holy Grail.
It uses absolute positioning though, which can lead to overlaps when
you resize the page. That is why a lot of designers prefer using
floating for layouts.
A lot there:
http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CssLayouts
--
Chris Heilmann
Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/
From: ben morrison
Date: Fri, Jul 08 2005 8:13AM
Subject: Re: Simple layout tables
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> I agree with Pat and if you are stuck and in need of a quick solution
> have a look at
>
> http://www.glish.com/css/home.asp
The CSS isnt a problem for me.
Its more to do with how well CSS behaves sometimes.
If you look at the RNID page, you will see a simple 3 column table being used.
http://www.rnid.org.uk/
ben
From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Fri, Jul 08 2005 8:17AM
Subject: Re: Simple layout tables
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> > I agree with Pat and if you are stuck and in need of a quick solution
> > have a look at
> >
> > http://www.glish.com/css/home.asp
>
> The CSS isnt a problem for me.
> Its more to do with how well CSS behaves sometimes.
>
> If you look at the RNID page, you will see a simple 3 column table being used.
>
> http://www.rnid.org.uk/
And if you consider low vision people you will soon realise that
column layouts are a bad idea anyway :-) This is a p******** contest
nobody can win.
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/lowvision/
At least you can define a CSS layout to break into one column, where a
table will cause horizontal scrolling
--
Chris Heilmann
Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/
From: ben morrison
Date: Fri, Jul 08 2005 8:25AM
Subject: Re: Simple layout tables
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> http://www.alistapart.com/articles/lowvision/
>
> At least you can define a CSS layout to break into one column, where a
> table will cause horizontal scrolling
Douglas Bowman recently did a version following Joe Clarks talk from @media:
http://www.stopdesign.com/log/2005/06/24/zoom-layout.html
ben
From: CFIT@list.webaim.org:Joshue O Connor
Date: Fri, Jul 08 2005 8:30AM
Subject: Re: Simple layout tables
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I see what you mean. And I also have an issue with CSS behaviour, or
maybe I should rephrase that - I have an issue with the unpredictable
way UA's (step up IE in all your forms) renders it. I know this is not
strictly an accessibility issue but a design issue (Are things that
clearcut anymore anyway??). Is there anything wrong with using a
table, as on the RNIB site and coding thus
<table width="100%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0" summary="layout table">
The text resizes pretty well, even when the text is enlarged quite a
lot. So I can see it could be a useful technique and also its not
difficult to code and there would be no wildly varying differences in
the way it renders in different browsers.
But is it going backwards using tables??
Josh
From: Pat Richard
Date: Fri, Jul 08 2005 10:02AM
Subject: RE: Simple layout tables
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I tend to follow these issues:
Top seven reasons to avoid tables:
http://www.workingwith.me.uk/tablefree/why/
YMMV
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Joshue O
Connor
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 10:30 AM
To: ben morrison; WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Simple layout tables
I see what you mean. And I also have an issue with CSS behaviour, or
maybe I should rephrase that - I have an issue with the unpredictable
way UA's (step up IE in all your forms) renders it. I know this is not
strictly an accessibility issue but a design issue (Are things that
clearcut anymore anyway??). Is there anything wrong with using a
table, as on the RNIB site and coding thus
<table width="100%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0"
summary="layout table">
The text resizes pretty well, even when the text is enlarged quite a
lot. So I can see it could be a useful technique and also its not
difficult to code and there would be no wildly varying differences in
the way it renders in different browsers.
But is it going backwards using tables??
Josh
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From: James Pickering
Date: Tue, Jul 12 2005 9:19PM
Subject: Re: Simple layout tables
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The W3C has two excellent tutorials:
http://www.w3.org/2002/11/homepage
http://www.w3.org/2002/03/csslayout-howto
I have produced a couple of CSS Table-less pages quite easily using the
methodology outlined.
----- Original Message -----
From: "ben morrison" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 3:00 AM
Subject: [WebAIM] Simple layout tables
Im a CSS developer and always build sites with CSS positioning.
However there are occasions when the design/budget would suit a very
simple 3 column table - due to flexible column designs (min-max
width). Whats the general consensus on using such a table and does
that affect accessibility. I know there are javascript workarounds for
min-max width in IE.
ben
From: James Pickering
Date: Fri, Jul 15 2005 9:34AM
Subject: Re: Simple layout tables
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The following article goes a long way toward explaining alignment and
positioning problems using tables for layout:
http://developer-test.mozilla.org/en/docs/Images%2C_Tables%2C_and_Mysterious_Gaps
James Pickering
http://www.jp29.org/
----- Original Message -----
From: "ben morrison" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 7:13 AM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Simple layout tables
> I agree with Pat and if you are stuck and in need of a quick solution
> have a look at
>
> http://www.glish.com/css/home.asp
The CSS isnt a problem for me.
Its more to do with how well CSS behaves sometimes.
If you look at the RNID page, you will see a simple 3 column table being
used.
http://www.rnid.org.uk/
ben