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Thread: UDM from Brothercake for drop-down menus
Number of posts in this thread: 23 (In chronological order)
From: Theresa Hansen
Date: Wed, Oct 12 2005 4:00PM
Subject: UDM from Brothercake for drop-down menus
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I know this is an old topic but I have a site that the project manager
is insisting needs drop-down menus. Does anyone have any experience,
good or bad, with UDM from Brothercake http://www.udm4.com/ ? They
claim WAI-AAA and Section 508 compatibility but I know that doesn't
necessarily mean it is accessible. I have had a friend using JAWS
4.something take a quick look at a project in progress but I would
appreciate any experience any of you may have.
Thanks in advance,
Theresa Hansen
Center for Human develompent
University of Alaska Anchorage
From: Al Sparber
Date: Wed, Oct 12 2005 10:00PM
Subject: Re: UDM from Brothercake for drop-down menus
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Hi Theresa,
Accessibility is not as easy as it seems. This article might be of
value:
http://www.projectseven.com/tutorials/accessibility/pop_integrated/index.htm
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
DW Extensions - Menu Systems - Tutorials - CSS FastPacks
---------------------------------------------------------
Webdev Newsgroup: news://forums.projectseven.com/pviiwebdev/
CSS Newsgroup: news://forums.projectseven.com/css/
RSS/XML Feeds: http://www.projectseven.com/xml/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Theresa Hansen" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 5:37 PM
Subject: [WebAIM] UDM from Brothercake for drop-down menus
>I know this is an old topic but I have a site that the project
>manager is insisting needs drop-down menus. Does anyone have any
>experience, good or bad, with UDM from Brothercake
>http://www.udm4.com/ ? They claim WAI-AAA and Section 508
>compatibility but I know that doesn't necessarily mean it is
>accessible. I have had a friend using JAWS 4.something take a quick
>look at a project in progress but I would appreciate any experience
>any of you may have.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Theresa Hansen
> Center for Human develompent
> University of Alaska Anchorage
>
>
>
>
>
From: Austin, Darrel
Date: Thu, Oct 13 2005 12:40PM
Subject: RE: UDM from Brothercake for drop-down menus
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> I know this is an old topic but I have a site that the
> project manager is insisting needs drop-down menus. Does
> anyone have any experience, good or bad, with UDM from
> Brothercake http://www.udm4.com/ ?
In the last round of debates (when I had to find a drop down menu as
well) I evaluated over a dozen options out there.
In the end, only UDM4 and PVII's products seemed to manage to produce
menus based on good semantic markup with both usability and
accessibility in mind.
So, those are the only two I recommend. UDM4's is a bit more robust,
with several extra bells and whistles, but you pay more for that...both
in cost and size of the scripts one needs to use.
So, *if* you need to use fly-outs, then you can't do much better than
one of the above two products.
IMHO, of course.
-Darrel
From: Austin, Darrel
Date: Thu, Oct 13 2005 2:40PM
Subject: RE: UDM from Brothercake for drop-down menus
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> Can we post the urls for these vendors?
http://www.projectseven.com
http://www.udm4.com
-Darrel
From: Hoffman, Allen
Date: Thu, Oct 13 2005 3:20PM
Subject: RE: UDM from Brothercake for drop-down menus
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Can we post the urls for these vendors?
Allen Hoffman
From: ben morrison
Date: Fri, Oct 14 2005 3:20AM
Subject: Re: UDM from Brothercake for drop-down menus
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On 10/13/05, Austin, Darrel < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > Can we post the urls for these vendors?
>
> http://www.projectseven.com
> http://www.udm4.com
>
I haven't tried this one myself but definitely worth a look:
http://www.onlinetools.org/tools/yadm
(Im sure christian will give more advice on it if needed)
ben
From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Fri, Oct 14 2005 4:40AM
Subject: Re: UDM from Brothercake for drop-down menus
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> > > Can we post the urls for these vendors?
> >
> > http://www.projectseven.com
> > http://www.udm4.com
> >
>
> I haven't tried this one myself but definitely worth a look:
>
> http://www.onlinetools.org/tools/yadm
>
> (Im sure christian will give more advice on it if needed)
Mine doesn't really give the keyboard experience brothercake's menu
gives. You need to tab through invisible links to reach the next main
section.
I still consider a multi level popup menu not a good choice when you
want to be accessible, not because of technical issues (of which there
are a lot), but plainly because of the amount of data displayed. You
cannot give a sitemap as the navigation on every page and expect not
to make it hard for some users to navigate your site. If 80% of the
displayed/offered links are not related to the current section then
they are just dead pageweight and in the way.
A "perfect" solution would be brothercake's with an AJAX layer only
loading the content of the sub sections when you activate a main
section.
Or - here is an idea - make a basic navigation that gives _only what
makes sense in this section_ and *offer* the fancy dropdown menu as an
option!
http://www.icant.co.uk/articles/navigation/
--
Chris Heilmann
Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/
From: Al Sparber
Date: Fri, Oct 14 2005 10:40PM
Subject: Re: UDM from Brothercake for drop-down menus
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From: "Christian Heilmann" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > > Can we post the urls for these vendors?
> >
> > http://www.projectseven.com
> > http://www.udm4.com
> >
>
> I haven't tried this one myself but definitely worth a look:
>
> http://www.onlinetools.org/tools/yadm
>
> (Im sure christian will give more advice on it if needed)
A "perfect" solution would be brothercake's with an AJAX layer only
loading the content of the sub sections when you activate a main
section.
Or - here is an idea - make a basic navigation that gives _only what
makes sense in this section_ and *offer* the fancy dropdown menu as an
option!
http://www.icant.co.uk/articles/navigation/
Can we see an actual example of this :-) Better yet, forget the
example - I think your best advice might be to drop back 10 yards and
dispense with drop-down menus completely. My advice, of course, would
be different and I'd be glad to offer it - offlist only.
Al Sparber
PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
"Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling
mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that
repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday".
From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Sat, Oct 15 2005 8:00AM
Subject: Re: UDM from Brothercake for drop-down menus
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> A "perfect" solution would be brothercake's with an AJAX layer only
> loading the content of the sub sections when you activate a main
> section.
>
> Or - here is an idea - make a basic navigation that gives _only what
> makes sense in this section_ and *offer* the fancy dropdown menu as an
> option!
>
> http://www.icant.co.uk/articles/navigation/
> Can we see an actual example of this :-) Better yet, forget the
> example - I think your best advice might be to drop back 10 yards and
> dispense with drop-down menus completely. My advice, of course, would
> be different and I'd be glad to offer it - offlist only.
How was that email helpful to the issue at hand? As we cannot expect
the dropdown to be useful to all visitors - but be in the way of some
(40 links to tab through where 5 could be enough) how is giving the
dropdown as an option a bad idea?
We do use simple search and advanced search to cater for different
needs, why not simple navigation and advanced navigation? Right now
you see this in some products:
They offer a fancy multi level dropdown navigation as the standard and
an "accessible text version" as the fallback. The text version also
has less navigation (just the one necessary - the main sections, the
current section and a link to the sitemap). But if I were to have
issues using a mouse I don't want to get a text only high contrast
version, all I want is the simplified navigation.
It is not about black and white good or bad, it is about giving the
visitor choice or assuming what we want is what every visitor wants.
From: Al Sparber
Date: Sat, Oct 15 2005 2:00PM
Subject: Re: UDM from Brothercake for drop-down menus
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Christian Heilmann wrote:
Feel free to take up the discussion offlist :-)
Al Sparber
PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
"Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling
mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that
repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday".
From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Sat, Oct 15 2005 5:20PM
Subject: Re: UDM from Brothercake for drop-down menus
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> Feel free to take up the discussion offlist :-)
I didn't ask for your advice. I don't really need it. Cryptic messages
on the list help nobody. If you got something to say about the matter,
say it. If not, just leave the snide remarks for next time and we all
have less noise to signal ratio here.
From: Al Sparber
Date: Sun, Oct 16 2005 12:00AM
Subject: Re: UDM from Brothercake for drop-down menus
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Christian Heilmann wrote:
>> Feel free to take up the discussion offlist :-)
>
> I didn't ask for your advice. I don't really need it. Cryptic
> messages
> on the list help nobody. If you got something to say about the
> matter,
> say it. If not, just leave the snide remarks for next time and we
> all
> have less noise to signal ratio here.
I think you're mistaken. The reason why I've not expounded on list is
to avoid egging you on. Your advice is not good. The original poster
should go ahead and use the Brothercake menu and learn how it can be
integrated into an accessible web site. If I (or someone from
Brothercake) attempted to do so on this list, a debate would likely
rage. Your advice is confusing and your solution vague. I really
wanted to avoid saying that on list, but I don't want to be made a
fool of by the likes of you, either. My apologies to the list in
advance.
Al Sparber
PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
"Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling
mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that
repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday".
From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Sun, Oct 16 2005 3:20AM
Subject: Re: UDM from Brothercake for drop-down menus
← Previous message | Next message →
> >> Feel free to take up the discussion offlist :-)
> >
> > I didn't ask for your advice. I don't really need it. Cryptic
> > messages
> > on the list help nobody. If you got something to say about the
> > matter,
> > say it. If not, just leave the snide remarks for next time and we
> > all
> > have less noise to signal ratio here.
>
> I think you're mistaken. The reason why I've not expounded on list is
> to avoid egging you on. Your advice is not good. The original poster
> should go ahead and use the Brothercake menu and learn how it can be
> integrated into an accessible web site. If I (or someone from
> Brothercake) attempted to do so on this list, a debate would likely
> rage. Your advice is confusing and your solution vague. I really
> wanted to avoid saying that on list, but I don't want to be made a
> fool of by the likes of you, either. My apologies to the list in
> advance.
And you fail to make my advice less confusing by pointing out the
flaws in it. Again, what is wrong about leaving the choice of the
complexity of the menu to the user?
Having developed a menu myself, and being mentioned by another poster
here I was simply pointing out that mine had flaws and approached the
issue in a non-technical manner - which is more confusing and can be
vague but is a lot more about accessibility - as accessibility is
about diverse user groups as much as it is about re-educating
ourselves as developers.
I also pointed out that UDM is a good solution, albeit not perfect yet
and how it could be improved.I don't see how that could be considered
"making them a fool"?
I think we can agree that you will not win clients with less flashy,
but more accessible menu systems with lowest common content. So, if we
want to make the web more accessible, what is wrong by questioning our
own ways of developing? In 1999, you had to create a 5 minute flash
tunnel to sell a site, we stopped doing that, too.
Read the CSS-D or even the archives here. Almost every second day you
get an email of a developer asking for help as the dropdown menu does
not work in one way or another. To me, this looks like we are running
in circles rather than facing the issue that a dropdown menu _does_
need user negotiation. Windows XP had a newly structured start menu
only showing the latest used applications. I have encountered many
users that were confused by that and switched back to the classic
menu. M$ was clever enough to give that option.
From: John Foliot - WATS.ca
Date: Sun, Oct 16 2005 11:20AM
Subject: RE: UDM from Brothercake for drop-down menus
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Al Sparber wrote:
> Your advice is not good.
In Al Sparber's opinion.
> The original poster
> should go ahead and use the Brothercake menu and learn how it can be
> integrated into an accessible web site.
Not so long ago, Mr. Sparber appeared on an accessibility list[1] and
declared that the PVII dropdown menu was "accessible" - halleluiah - and
that users of DreamWeaver should run to his site and download the
solution for a mere $90.00 US (never mind that there are other Open
Source solutions out there...).
At that time, I took Mr. Sparber to task for alluding that using his
solution would solve developers requirements to create Section 508
and/or A, AA or AAA web sites. Nowhere in his declaration did he
mention the accessibility issues of cognitive overload and usability
concerns by presenting 40+ links off of the home page, or worse, off of
every page, by providing a flashy dropdown menu. While his company then
did go and write a "tutorial" covering this issue, it has been
marginalized or sidelined, as his recent responses appear to indicate.
(To be fair and balanced, Mr. Sparber did provide the link to the
tutorial in one of his earliest responses, it can be found at:
http://www.projectseven.com/tutorials/accessibility/pop_integrated/index
.htm)
Chrisitan's response, as well as the extensive articles associated with
his solution, is not wrong (in *my* opinion), despite Mr. Sparber's
assertions. To remind everyone of what Christian said:
<q>
I still consider a multi level popup menu not a good choice when you
want to be accessible, not because of technical issues (of which there
are a lot), but plainly because of the amount of data displayed. You
cannot give a sitemap as the navigation on every page and expect not to
make it hard for some users to navigate your site. If 80% of the
displayed/offered links are not related to the current section then they
are just dead pageweight and in the way.
</q>
Of course Mr. Sparber will argue against this - he has a $90.00 download
in the offing that would be invalidated if he did agree.
For the record, both Brothercake's and Project 7's solutions, as well as
Chrisitan's, meet technical accessibility issues (validation, separation
of content from design via CSS, etc.), so if your client absolutely
insists, take yer pick. ALL OF THE AFOREMENTIONED SOLUTIONS DO ADDRESS
ACCESSIBILITY CONCERNS AT A TECHNICAL LEVEL. But if you really want to
make your site accessible, do not negate the very real and valid points
that Christian has made:
http://www.icant.co.uk/articles/navigation/
http://www.icant.co.uk/forreview/dynamicelements/
> If I (or someone from
> Brothercake) attempted to do so on this list, a debate would likely
> rage. Your advice is confusing and your solution vague. I really
> wanted to avoid saying that on list, but I don't want to be made a
> fool of by the likes of you, either. My apologies to the list in
> advance.
No comment.
JF
--
John Foliot = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Web Accessibility Specialist / Co-founder of WATS.ca
Web Accessibility Testing and Services
http://www.wats.ca
Phone: 1-613-482-7053
[1] As I subscribe to more than one list, and being Sunday morning and
I'm feeling lazy, I can only state that it may be this list, or
another...
From: Al Sparber
Date: Sun, Oct 16 2005 4:00PM
Subject: Re: UDM from Brothercake for drop-down menus
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From: "John Foliot - WATS.ca" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Not so long ago, Mr. Sparber appeared on an accessibility list[1]
> and
> declared that the PVII dropdown menu was "accessible" - halleluiah -
> and
> that users of DreamWeaver should run to his site and download the
> solution for a mere $90.00 US (never mind that there are other Open
> Source solutions out there...)
That is a lie. I am not slandering you or saying anything that should
have the minsiters of this list scold me. I am simply defending myself
from a liar. And that is the truth.
Al Sparber
PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
"Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling
mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that
repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday".
From: John Foliot - WATS.ca
Date: Sun, Oct 16 2005 5:20PM
Subject: RE: UDM from Brothercake for drop-down menus
← Previous message | Next message →
Al Sparber wrote:
> From: "John Foliot - WATS.ca" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> Not so long ago, Mr. Sparber appeared on an accessibility list[1]
>> and
>> declared that the PVII dropdown menu was "accessible" - halleluiah -
>> and
>> that users of DreamWeaver should run to his site and download the
>> solution for a mere $90.00 US (never mind that there are other Open
>> Source solutions out there...)
>
> That is a lie. I am not slandering you or saying anything that should
> have the minsiters of this list scold me. I am simply defending myself
> from a liar. And that is the truth.
http://www.webaim.org/discussion/mail_message.php?id=7121
"...We will continue
to proudly describe our menu system as meeting Section 508 and WAI
checkpoint 3 guidelines and all non-obsessive subjective criteria, as
well...."
http://www.webaim.org/discussion/mail_message.php?id=7136
"...I'm defending my product because an opinion issued by Thatcher was
posted on our public newsgroup and it claimed our menu was not
accessible. I disagree..."
"...A simple look at the number of people who have to use the keyboard
(I
totally discount people who choose not to use a mouse, as they are
primarily over-zealous about something or other) paints a clear
course: Develop for the majority and provide alternate paths for the
minority. If you do it in reverse that's an opinion now, is it not? ..."
Finally:
My response post to Mr. Sparber outlining the accessibility issues of
his dropdown menus, which led, in part, to Project 7 writing their
"tutorial" piece:
http://www.webaim.org/discussion/mail_message.php?id=7150
I'm all done list admins <wink>
Later...
JF
--
John Foliot = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Web Accessibility Specialist / Co-founder of WATS.ca
Web Accessibility Testing and Services
http://www.wats.ca
Phone: 1-613-482-7053
From: Al Sparber
Date: Sun, Oct 16 2005 6:40PM
Subject: Re: UDM from Brothercake for drop-down menus
← Previous message | Next message →
From: "John Foliot - WATS.ca" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> From: "John Foliot - WATS.ca" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>>> Not so long ago, Mr. Sparber appeared on an accessibility list[1]
>>> and
>>> declared that the PVII dropdown menu was "accessible" -
>>> halleluiah -
>>> and
>>> that users of DreamWeaver should run to his site and download the
>>> solution for a mere $90.00 US (never mind that there are other
>>> Open
>>> Source solutions out there...)
>>
>> That is a lie. I am not slandering you or saying anything that
>> should
>> have the minsiters of this list scold me. I am simply defending
>> myself
>> from a liar. And that is the truth.
This is the lie you told:
You wrote:
" that users of DreamWeaver should run to his site and download the
solution for a mere $90.00 US (never mind that there are other Open
Source solutions out there...)"
I never said that. That is an editorial and an extremely rude and
toxic supposition.
I would love to contribute to lists like this, "webstandards", and
"CSS-D", but for the extremist element. Again, I am defending myself
from a lie and would hope that the management can see that. I am out
of this thread and will not waste my time with this nonsense any
longer.
Al Sparber
PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
"Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling
mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that
repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday".
From: Nancy Swenson
Date: Mon, Oct 17 2005 6:40AM
Subject: Re: UDM from Brothercake for drop-down menus (Out of
the Office)
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Hello,
Thank you for your e-mail. I will be out of the office October 17-20, 2005. I will return to the office Friday, October 21, 2005. I look forward to assisting you when I return.
If you need immediate assistance while I am away, please e-mail the Instructional Design Office at: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = .
Below are addtitional resources you may wish to consult for assistance.
Resources:
For Faculty teaching online: Teaching Online Web site: http://teach.ucf.edu
For Students taking online classes: Learning Online Web site:
http://learn.ucf.edu
For answers to our frequently asked questions or to submit a question to CDWS support staff, please check out:
http://ask.ucf.edu
Instructional Design Office's main number:
407-823-3809
Course Development and Web Services' main number:
407-823-3718
Sincerely,
Nancy
Nancy Swenson
Instructional Designer
Course Development and Web Services
University of Central Florida
4000 Central Florida Blvd.
Library Rm 107
Orlando, FL 32816-2810
407-823-4270
FAX: 407-823-3511
Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
From: Joshue O Connor
Date: Mon, Oct 17 2005 7:20AM
Subject: Re: UDM from Brothercake for drop-down menus
← Previous message | Next message →
Just an note - at the risk of sticking my neck out - This is not related
to the technical issues brought up in the thread but on reading, I feel
the need to add something as an aside.
Christian said
I was simply pointing out that mine had flaws and approached the
issue in a non-technical manner
what is wrong by questioning our
own ways of developing?
Hats off to you Christian, as (IMO) this kind of outlook is an important
part of the "spirit" of accessibility. We need to be big enough to look
at ourselves and our work with an eye to always improving it.
Its easy to say you have a perfect solution and then be proved wrong. It
takes courage to say your solution isn't perfect - but it's the best you
could come up with, and then try to make it better.
Joshue O Connor
Web Accessibility Consultant
**Centre for Inclusive Technology (CFIT)* *
National Council for the Blind of Ireland
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = +353 1 8821915
From: Austin, Darrel
Date: Mon, Oct 17 2005 8:40AM
Subject: RE: UDM from Brothercake for drop-down menus
← Previous message | Next message →
> I would love to contribute to lists like this, "webstandards",
> and "CSS-D", but for the extremist element.
This is a list about accessibility. Obviously, folks are going to be
nit-picky about accessibility.
-Darrel
From: Austin, Darrel
Date: Mon, Oct 17 2005 9:20AM
Subject: RE: UDM from Brothercake for drop-down menus
← Previous message | Next message →
Replying to a few comments...
> > I haven't tried this one myself but definitely worth a look:
> >
> > http://www.onlinetools.org/tools/yadm
> >
> > (Im sure christian will give more advice on it if needed)
I hadn't seen the YADM solution. For starters, thanks, Chris, for making
a nice CC-licensed solution.
It seems good, but, from what I can see, lacks two features:
- delayed hide of fly-outs (a usability issue--having a delay
allows one to mouse out of the main link, across others, and
then back into the sub-menu without it disappearing)
- submenus don't seem to appear via keyboard (though you can
get to the links). That might just be my browser configuration.
That said, it seems as if ALL fly-out menu systems lack one feature or
another, so one just needs to evaluate each one based on their
particular site's needs.
> A "perfect" solution would be brothercake's with an AJAX
> layer only loading the content of the sub sections when you
> activate a main section.
That's an interesting idea. Might be a bit slow, but interesting
thinking.
> Or - here is an idea - make a basic navigation that gives
> _only what makes sense in this section_ and *offer* the fancy
> dropdown menu as an option!
>
> http://www.icant.co.uk/articles/navigation/
That's the solution I'm proposing for our new site (IF the powers that
be insist on adding the fly-out to begin with). We'd start with your
basic navigation system only showing the sub-pages of the section you
are in, and then we'd provide a check-box to enable the 'fancier'
fly-out navigation for those that want it. We've found internal folks
really want the fly-out, namely because they're only interested in their
section of the web site.
> Can we see an actual example of this :-) Better yet, forget
> the example - I think your best advice might be to drop back
> 10 yards and dispense with drop-down menus completely.
That sometimes is the best solution. More often than not, fly-out
navigation systems are used for all the wrong reasons and the site could
definitely benefit if they just got rid of them.
The issue between Al and the list (which seems to be a recurring thing
now? ;o) isn't an uncommon debate. It's the issue of 'technical
accessibility' vs. 'practical accessibility' that always pops up when
discussing accessibility issues. It's not an either-or, of course...one
needs to strike a balance between the two on a project by project basis.
-Darrel
-Darrel
From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Mon, Oct 17 2005 10:40AM
Subject: RE: UDM from Brothercake for drop-down menus
← Previous message | Next message →
> > A "perfect" solution would be brothercake's with an AJAX layer only
> > loading the content of the sub sections when you activate a main
> > section.
>
> That's an interesting idea. Might be a bit slow, but
> interesting thinking.
Perfect might be a bit strong here, or a bit premature. Screen readers
will have very different approaches to dealing with dynamic DOM
modifications. Some may require that you start reading from the top of
the page to access the new content, others may require a manual update
of the screen reader's page model. This type of scripted modification
causes more problems than it solves at present. There is lots of work
yet to be done to make sure that screen readers know how to deliver an
equivalent experience...
AWK
From: Joseph O'Connor
Date: Mon, Oct 17 2005 10:00PM
Subject: Re: UDM from Brothercake for drop-down menus
← Previous message | No next message
On Oct 17, 2005, at 5:08:14 AM PDT, Joshue O Connor wrote:
> Its easy to say you have a perfect solution and then be proved
> wrong. It takes courage to say your solution isn't perfect - but
> it's the best you could come up with, and then try to make it better.
>
> Joshue O Connor
I must say... that Joshue has got a point:-)
Joseph O'Connor