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Number of posts in this thread: 13 (In chronological order)

From: Steven Henderson
Date: Wed, Jan 20 2010 2:57AM
Subject: Re: Good page titles - friendly SEO
No previous message | Next message →

Hope people don't mind me bringing up a previous post, but I was interested
in what Geof Collis was saying about using search engines, particularly the
following:

"Personally long titles don't bother me as a screen reader, the more
descriptive the better and I really don't need any company names cluttering
up the beginning of it, its easy enough to find out the company's name from
the site if I need to."

"When I get to the page I start with my JAWS heading commands, if I cant
find it that way then I use the on screen find function, type in some words
that were relevant and go from there."

If a page title is giving a page most of it's SERP weight, as opposed to the
page content or external reference, then I can see how on many occasions the
SEO developer is going to have a tough job attracting click-through against
competitors who's titles can be more attractive thanks to the lower SERP
weight of the page title itself.

This is where I am getting frustrated with the page title. I use the page
title a lot for saving pages and bookmarks (I recall somebody else
mentioning this point too - apologies for not recalling who it was) so am
really annoyed at how in most cases, I will need to compromise the page
title because of client's expectations of the page title in SEO.

For example,

Searching for 'vintage wine' in Google returns vintagewinegifts.co.uk as the
first result. It happens to have a horrible page title: "Vintage wine gifts.
Fine & Rare wine gifts. vintage wine, port, champagne, cognac, Armagnac".

I myself wouldn't want to click on it personally, even if it is the highest
ranking SEO result. Great for SERP, but a monster of a page title in my
browser bookmarks or history. However, antique-wine.com is second in the
SERP and comes across considerably more appealing and makes me want to click
it, using the title: "The Antique Wine Company".

Surprise, the page title matches just one of the SEO keywords, likely due to
other on-page or external SEO weight, but something I can definitely
bookmark, and more likely candidate to persue.

Am I being too picky? Do I undervalue the SERP description because of a
badly received SERP title? Do I have to put up with it, because my client
website requires that god-awful SEO title?

I am very interested in people's comments on my ranting.

Steven










At 08:47 AM 10/14/2009, you wrote:
>Hi Geof,
>
>When you say you 'like the title to match the content heading' do you
>actually find that to be the case of most websites? As I don't recall that
>to be the case and am presently of the opinion that would be duplicate
>content (in so far as sifting through all the other content on a given
page,
>that also wants my attention).
>
>In your case, if I were to place the main heading (which is perhaps
>'similar' to the page title) at the top of the page, would it really be
>inconvenient that it differ from the title? And what if I place a few quick
>links above that too, one of which linked to the main content? In the case
>of a heading being identical to the page title, would you not prefer that
>there was no heading and could get straight to the main content directly
>(effectively treating the page title as your page heading)?
>
>
>Steven
>
>
>
>
>

From: ckrugman
Date: Wed, Jan 20 2010 3:30AM
Subject: Re: Good page titles - friendly SEO
← Previous message | Next message →

I actually prefer the name of the company or web site in title as if I
bookmark the page or choose to go there I want to know whose site it is.
There are some companies that I don't patronize for political reasons and I
will most likely look at the web address to ascertain the domain name of the
site or what company it belongs to.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Henderson" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "'WebAIM Discussion List'" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 1:55 AM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Good page titles - friendly SEO


> Hope people don't mind me bringing up a previous post, but I was
> interested
> in what Geof Collis was saying about using search engines, particularly
> the
> following:
>
> "Personally long titles don't bother me as a screen reader, the more
> descriptive the better and I really don't need any company names
> cluttering
> up the beginning of it, its easy enough to find out the company's name
> from
> the site if I need to."
>
> "When I get to the page I start with my JAWS heading commands, if I cant
> find it that way then I use the on screen find function, type in some
> words
> that were relevant and go from there."
>
> If a page title is giving a page most of it's SERP weight, as opposed to
> the
> page content or external reference, then I can see how on many occasions
> the
> SEO developer is going to have a tough job attracting click-through
> against
> competitors who's titles can be more attractive thanks to the lower SERP
> weight of the page title itself.
>
> This is where I am getting frustrated with the page title. I use the page
> title a lot for saving pages and bookmarks (I recall somebody else
> mentioning this point too - apologies for not recalling who it was) so am
> really annoyed at how in most cases, I will need to compromise the page
> title because of client's expectations of the page title in SEO.
>
> For example,
>
> Searching for 'vintage wine' in Google returns vintagewinegifts.co.uk as
> the
> first result. It happens to have a horrible page title: "Vintage wine
> gifts.
> Fine & Rare wine gifts. vintage wine, port, champagne, cognac, Armagnac".
>
> I myself wouldn't want to click on it personally, even if it is the
> highest
> ranking SEO result. Great for SERP, but a monster of a page title in my
> browser bookmarks or history. However, antique-wine.com is second in the
> SERP and comes across considerably more appealing and makes me want to
> click
> it, using the title: "The Antique Wine Company".
>
> Surprise, the page title matches just one of the SEO keywords, likely due
> to
> other on-page or external SEO weight, but something I can definitely
> bookmark, and more likely candidate to persue.
>
> Am I being too picky? Do I undervalue the SERP description because of a
> badly received SERP title? Do I have to put up with it, because my client
> website requires that god-awful SEO title?
>
> I am very interested in people's comments on my ranting.
>
> Steven
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> At 08:47 AM 10/14/2009, you wrote:
>>Hi Geof,
>>
>>When you say you 'like the title to match the content heading' do you
>>actually find that to be the case of most websites? As I don't recall that
>>to be the case and am presently of the opinion that would be duplicate
>>content (in so far as sifting through all the other content on a given
> page,
>>that also wants my attention).
>>
>>In your case, if I were to place the main heading (which is perhaps
>>'similar' to the page title) at the top of the page, would it really be
>>inconvenient that it differ from the title? And what if I place a few
>>quick
>>links above that too, one of which linked to the main content? In the case
>>of a heading being identical to the page title, would you not prefer that
>>there was no heading and could get straight to the main content directly
>>(effectively treating the page title as your page heading)?
>>
>>
>>Steven
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

From: Steven Henderson
Date: Wed, Jan 20 2010 3:45AM
Subject: Re: Good page titles - friendly SEO
← Previous message | Next message →

I totally agree about taking the domain name or company name into account,
Chuck. I generally do this for familiar searches however, where I don't have
sufficient experience to choose one over another using those criteria.

That said, I actually do prefer to see a company name in a title for the
same reasons, but generally if it is company I am not familiar with.
Otherwise, I find myself manually removing the company name from bookmarks
that I make from a website regularly (likely because I will have a folder
named accordingly, anyways). I particularly use domains to filter results
that I will never click on, such as those annoying listing directories
(particularly the ones that dynamically capture your search query to appear
relatively useful) ... who wants to return a search listing from a search
listing? Kinda defeats the point .... thankfully, once you become familiar
with the main ones, you can dismiss them in an instant. I would prefer them
not to be listed at all though.

Steven

From: Simius Puer
Date: Wed, Jan 20 2010 4:18AM
Subject: Re: Good page titles - friendly SEO
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Hi Steven

The homepage and other key high-level pages of a website do benefit from
having the company name in them...you just don't want every single page to
begin with it for a number of reasons:

1. When you bookmark a page often you see only the first few words in
your bookmarks folder - having multiple pages bookmarked on a site that all
start with the same thing means your bookmarks are pretty hopeless
2. Pages do *not* get most of their page weight from the title tag
although you should include keywords here. Also, the further away from the
beginning of a title your keyword is the less weight search engines will
give it so keyword stuffing does not work.

The click-through rate is far more important than stuffing every last
keyword you have into a title.

In terms of using the company name in the title, I agree with you - but only
for high level pages....

The homepage should be something like:
[Company Name], [brief description including keywords], [location or area
served (if appropriate)]

Other high-level pages need the company name but their purpose (or
product/service) should be put first, e.g.:
Customer service policy | [Company Name]

...of course this is a little bit of a simplistic overview and should be
considered on a case by case basis, but the basic idea remains.

Writing good clear titles meets all your requirements for SEO, SERPs,
accessibility, and UX (e.g. bookmark quality) in one go...there is not
"clash of interest". There is little point in compromising any one of these
aspects for a small gain elsewhere.

Don't forget to write good meta descriptions too - these don't carry any SEO
weight but add quality to your SERPs making them a little more
accessibility-friendly.

Funnily enough I've been reading a similar discussion over on SEOmoz which
has not considered the accessibility of titles, and yet it comes to the same
conclusions - good practice is good practice :]

From: Steven Henderson
Date: Wed, Jan 20 2010 5:00AM
Subject: Re: Good page titles - friendly SEO
← Previous message | Next message →

I think I have read the same article, Simius.

In principal I agree with the methods discussed, but in the case of the
following listing for 'womens clothing london', how is a business to compete
on equal application of the page title if they appear in the top 5 SERPs
with equal SEM and SEO?

1. womens clothing in street in London, girlie shop
2. The Lady in a hat, Street in London
3. Burtons | Women's Clothing, Street in London
4. Clothing > Women | Next, Street in London
5. Anne Summers

The above is how a typical SERP listing could look without the clutter of
meta descriptions or other data ... not really useful if the value of brands
is taken out of the equation. Often a high ranking page's title is just the
brand name, so serves little value as a functional title. That said, when
one sees so many equally ranking and descriptive SERPs, choosing one over
another is even more problematic.

In the magazine world, people either look for a known brand and pick it up,
or are attracted to something that stands out from the crowd. Why is it that
the SERP titles are being hyped to be a particular way, when in practice,
when everyone does it nobody actually stands out? Shouldn't a good title in
fact 'STAND OUT', particularly where brand is not an attractive keyword?
Therefore making it simply difficult to keep up with the competition, thus
most people are sucking up the over-crowded consensus of what a title should
be? Rather than actively keeping it competitive, perhaps for the fear that
it will not rank as highly?

Maybe I am just seeing too much into something that is perhaps unimportant?
Although if we agree that a page title isn't accountable for the SERP rank,
then perhaps once a page has a good rank we must then make efforts to ensure
that the title stands out? Thus begging the question of why conformance is
important at all?

Steven

From: ckrugman
Date: Wed, Jan 20 2010 1:09PM
Subject: Re: Good page titles - friendly SEO
← Previous message | Next message →

Yes, I agree and will frequently rename my book marks to make them more
relevant.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Henderson" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "'WebAIM Discussion List'" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 2:45 AM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Good page titles - friendly SEO


>I totally agree about taking the domain name or company name into account,
> Chuck. I generally do this for familiar searches however, where I don't
> have
> sufficient experience to choose one over another using those criteria.
>
> That said, I actually do prefer to see a company name in a title for the
> same reasons, but generally if it is company I am not familiar with.
> Otherwise, I find myself manually removing the company name from bookmarks
> that I make from a website regularly (likely because I will have a folder
> named accordingly, anyways). I particularly use domains to filter results
> that I will never click on, such as those annoying listing directories
> (particularly the ones that dynamically capture your search query to
> appear
> relatively useful) ... who wants to return a search listing from a search
> listing? Kinda defeats the point .... thankfully, once you become familiar
> with the main ones, you can dismiss them in an instant. I would prefer
> them
> not to be listed at all though.
>
> Steven
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

From: Iza Bartosiewicz
Date: Wed, Jan 20 2010 6:00PM
Subject: Re: Good page titles - friendly SEO
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Steven,

This topic is definitely worth revisiting. Recently, Dey Alexander
wrote an article: 'The trouble with page titles'
http://www.deyalexander.com.au/blog/2009/10/the-trouble-with-page-titles/,
which makes it clear why we still have so many poorly written titles.
There are many general guidelines that recommend writing meaningful and
descriptive titles; perhaps we also need is a list of recommended
formats for page titles that are SEO, bookmark, browser tabs and
assistive technologies-friendly.

My purely personal favourites are the ones that go from specific to
broad:

Page title – Department name – Organisation
Article title – Publication title – Publisher
Article title – Blog title

These are the ones that I found to be most usable in my bookmark lists
and in the browser tabs.

cheers
Iza


>>> On 20/01/10 at 20:55, "Steven Henderson"
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:
> Hope people don't mind me bringing up a previous post, but I was
interested
> in what Geof Collis was saying about using search engines,
particularly the
> following:
>
> "Personally long titles don't bother me as a screen reader, the more
> descriptive the better and I really don't need any company names
cluttering
> up the beginning of it, its easy enough to find out the company's
name from
> the site if I need to."
>
> "When I get to the page I start with my JAWS heading commands, if I
cant
> find it that way then I use the on screen find function, type in some
words
> that were relevant and go from there."
>
> If a page title is giving a page most of it's SERP weight, as opposed
to the
> page content or external reference, then I can see how on many
occasions the
> SEO developer is going to have a tough job attracting click-through
against
> competitors who's titles can be more attractive thanks to the lower
SERP
> weight of the page title itself.
>
> This is where I am getting frustrated with the page title. I use the
page
> title a lot for saving pages and bookmarks (I recall somebody else
> mentioning this point too - apologies for not recalling who it was)
so am
> really annoyed at how in most cases, I will need to compromise the
page
> title because of client's expectations of the page title in SEO.
>
> For example,
>
> Searching for 'vintage wine' in Google returns vintagewinegifts.co.uk
as the
> first result. It happens to have a horrible page title: "Vintage wine
gifts.
> Fine & Rare wine gifts. vintage wine, port, champagne, cognac,
Armagnac".
>
> I myself wouldn't want to click on it personally, even if it is the
highest
> ranking SEO result. Great for SERP, but a monster of a page title in
my
> browser bookmarks or history. However, antique-wine.com is second in
the
> SERP and comes across considerably more appealing and makes me want
to click
> it, using the title: "The Antique Wine Company".
>
> Surprise, the page title matches just one of the SEO keywords, likely
due to
> other on-page or external SEO weight, but something I can definitely
> bookmark, and more likely candidate to persue.
>
> Am I being too picky? Do I undervalue the SERP description because of
a
> badly received SERP title? Do I have to put up with it, because my
client
> website requires that god-awful SEO title?
>
> I am very interested in people's comments on my ranting.
>
> Steven

From: Jared Smith
Date: Wed, Jan 20 2010 6:27PM
Subject: Re: Good page titles - friendly SEO
← Previous message | Next message →

Just a quick thought:

If search engines are favoring page titles that, if implemented,
result in worse user experiences, why not simply motivate search
engines to instead favor page titles that are also highly accessible.
It's a simple solution that solves the problem and also results in the
creation of better page titles up the road. Or am I missing something
very obvious here? It seems we're trying to solve the SEO issue when
we should be solving the SE issue.

Jared

From: Simius Puer
Date: Thu, Jan 21 2010 1:51AM
Subject: Re: Good page titles - friendly SEO
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Jared

Search engines do not favor page titles that are poorly written (e.g.
key-word stuffed or use techniques such as ">>>>> OUR BRAND <<<<<").
Thankfully the people who create search engine algorithms are a little more
educated than that.

Of course, no algorithm is perfect but as I tried to explain to Steven there
is no real difference between the needs of SEO and accessibility (and SERPs,
and bookmarking, and browser tabs) when it comes to page titles.

Putting key information (i.e. accurate and specific page descriptions) *
before* the generic brand/company has the following beneficial effects:

1. SEO - the earlier in the title the keyword(s) is/are the more weight
they will get. Note: the keyword should be an accurate descriptor for the
page and not 'marketing-speak', e.g. "Antique" not "Beautifully aged
relics". This will boost your *rank* for given terms.

2. Accessibility - Putting the unique information first is essential to
avoid having to listen to long repeated phrases - just cut to the chase.
The brand can still be there at the end if the user wants to listen to the
whole thing. Think of this the same way as a "skip to content" but for
titles. This allows users of AT to 'scan-read' pages easier as most regular
users do.

3. SERPs - Key word stuffing is ugly, does not boost your SEO
significantly and it will dramatically lower your SERPs click-through. It
is not a matter of 'standing out' by shouting your message at people. Well
written, clear titles (and descriptions) are easier to read, less aggressive
and far more likely to attract that click.

Steven - SERPs are a little different to a newsagent stand selling
women's mags! The user controls what they want to see in terms of search
criteria and the search engine controls how they are to display...and 'other
data' (URL, description etc) is displayed (not sure why you feel titles need
to be taken out of context!) enabling better selection choice. Trying to
stand out by being bolder or louder or more in-your-face simply does not
work. Well written, quality titles do.

4. Bookmarks / browser tabs info - easy one this...do you want to see

[brand xyz123...]
[brand xyz123...]
[brand xyz123...]

as your bookmark text or

[Mens clothing]
[Womens clothing]
[Sports equipment]?

Anyone still thinking 'what about my brand' at this stage needs to go and
look at favicons!


Writing good page titles is a tricky business and does require quite some
considerably thought, but its role in SEO does not clash with its role in
accessibility.

From: Steven Henderson
Date: Thu, Jan 21 2010 3:09AM
Subject: Re: Good page titles - friendly SEO
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Simius,

I'm really digesting what you are saying, but the part that I either am not
getting or am having trouble agreeing with (not sure yet), is if SERPs
listed say 20 competitors on the first page, and each used the same
title/description formula (as being suggested), then how does one really
compete for that all-important custom over the others in a SERP?

I took brand out of the equation for the purposes of non-brand search
criteria. Otherwise, it would be expected that someone looking for a
product/article or even be convinced by a website they are already familiar
with, would likely pick out criteria such as the store/brand/website name in
either the title, description, url or all three. By doing this, it made it
fair for a large portion of websites out there that people will be trying to
find through a search engine, where a brand or particular store would make
no difference in decision making.

This is where I posed the idea of titles in a SERP by my understanding, to
be actually competing against others. Hence why I wondered why SEO articles
and the like never actually cover this aspect of the page title. I think
this is where I am not sure how SERPs are in any way different to a
newsagent selling a magazine, as the user does not control the page titles
or descriptions of the SERP listing as far as I am aware. Is there something
that I am still missing?

Steven

From: Steven Henderson
Date: Thu, Jan 21 2010 3:33AM
Subject: Re: Good page titles - friendly SEO
← Previous message | Next message →

2. Accessibility - Putting the unique information first is essential to
avoid having to listen to long repeated phrases - just cut to the chase.

I am looking into this point more and more, Simius. I really don't want to
dismiss users in general.


3. SERPs - Key word stuffing is ugly, does not boost your SEO
significantly and it will dramatically lower your SERPs click-through.
It
is not a matter of 'standing out' by shouting your message at people.
Well
written, clear titles (and descriptions) are easier to read, less
aggressive
and far more likely to attract that click.

I think this is where I actually disagree with you, Simius. If a SERP
listing returned equally well-written titles and descriptions, you need
'something else' to attract that ever-so important click-through.


As Jared suggested, and I agree, all too often I do a search and top of the
SERP list is a load of spam-looking titles (more often than not, they have
even more suspiscious urls). So I agree that this is perhaps an SE issue
that needs to be properly approached. I'm all for finding a solution to help
my client get the click-through in a SEPR listing, but I don't think people
should have to sift through those spam entries in either case ... they just
clog and slow down our search queries, along with our ability to quickly
pick out what is of value.

From: Steven Henderson
Date: Thu, Jan 21 2010 4:57AM
Subject: Re: Good page titles - friendly SEO
← Previous message | Next message →

Thanks for the link, Iza. I am interested in the comment about screen reader users relying on well-written page titles as opposed to breadcrumb-like titles. Can anyone confirm if this is true?

Steven

From: Moore,Michael (DARS)
Date: Thu, Jan 21 2010 9:21AM
Subject: Re: Good page titles - friendly SEO
← Previous message | No next message

Steven wrote:

" I am interested in the comment about screen reader users relying on well-written page titles as opposed to breadcrumb-like titles. Can anyone confirm if this is true?"

Mike replies:

Sounds like a good question for the next WebAIM screen reader user survey, how about it Jared?

My gut feeling is that the majority of screen reader users don't rely too much on well written page titles since they are even more uncommon than well written and properly coded page headings.

Mike Moore