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Thread: CAPTCHA Question
Number of posts in this thread: 21 (In chronological order)
From: Susan Grossman
Date: Thu, Apr 01 2010 12:57PM
Subject: CAPTCHA Question
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Was asked if having linked email address to request assistance was enough to
meet 502.2.2.1 CAPTCHA if email was a 24 hour responder?
Wasn't sure how to answer this, and would appreciate responses.
Thanks
--
Susan R. Grossman
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
"Have I succeeded in reversing a 30-year trend of skepticism and cynicism
about government? I confess that I have not. Maybe next year."
-- White House political adviser David Axelrod
From: Geof Collis
Date: Thu, Apr 01 2010 1:03PM
Subject: Re: CAPTCHA Question
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi Susan
I'm barely patient with the audible CAPTCHA's I wouldn't even wait
one minute for a response. :O)
cheers
Geof
At 01:58 PM 4/1/2010, you wrote:
>Was asked if having linked email address to request assistance was enough to
>meet 502.2.2.1 CAPTCHA if email was a 24 hour responder?
>
>Wasn't sure how to answer this, and would appreciate responses.
>
>Thanks
>
>--
>Susan R. Grossman
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
>"Have I succeeded in reversing a 30-year trend of skepticism and cynicism
>about government? I confess that I have not. Maybe next year."
>
>-- White House political adviser David Axelrod
>
From: Randi
Date: Thu, Apr 01 2010 1:33PM
Subject: Re: CAPTCHA Question
← Previous message | Next message →
I have to agree with Jeff. I can't answer the complience question, but
as a screen reader user, it would drive me nuts to have to ask for
assistence for a CAPTCHA.
~Randi and Guide Dog Jayden
For me, acceptance was the first step towards recovery.
On Apr 1, 2010, at 11:01 AM, Geof Collis wrote:
> Hi Susan
>
> I'm barely patient with the audible CAPTCHA's I wouldn't even wait
> one minute for a response. :O)
>
> cheers
>
> Geof
>
> At 01:58 PM 4/1/2010, you wrote:
>> Was asked if having linked email address to request assistance was
>> enough to
>> meet 502.2.2.1 CAPTCHA if email was a 24 hour responder?
>>
>> Wasn't sure how to answer this, and would appreciate responses.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> --
>> Susan R. Grossman
>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>
>> "Have I succeeded in reversing a 30-year trend of skepticism and
>> cynicism
>> about government? I confess that I have not. Maybe next year."
>>
>> -- White House political adviser David Axelrod
>>
From: Karlen Communications
Date: Thu, Apr 01 2010 1:39PM
Subject: Re: CAPTCHA Question
← Previous message | Next message →
This is why I don't have a g-mail account...I spent 45 minutes trying to
figure out the various combinations both visually and using the
audio...visually with screen magnification and using the audio with JAWS.
At first I thought I was getting old.....
Cheers, Karen
From: Nelson-Brooks, Carolyn
Date: Thu, Apr 01 2010 1:51PM
Subject: Re: CAPTCHA Question
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Yep, I have to agree with Randy. I HATE CAPTCHA SITES.
From: Susan Grossman
Date: Thu, Apr 01 2010 2:03PM
Subject: Re: CAPTCHA Question
← Previous message | Next message →
I have to agree with Jeff. I can't answer the complience question, but
> as a screen reader user, it would drive me nuts to have to ask for
> assistence for a CAPTCHA.
>
> ~Randi and Guide Dog Jayden
>
Thanks - I'll take real user feedback over "letter-of-the-requirement" any
day, and make sure I apply this to all sites where clients insist on using
CAPTCHA
Thanks again to all - Susan
From: ckrugman
Date: Fri, Apr 02 2010 3:00AM
Subject: Re: CAPTCHA Question
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I have run across a couple of sites where the captia is presented as text or
solving a math problem that is shown in text and not an image. This works
very well. I also use Web Visum in Firefox but Firefox is not my preferred
browser and I need to be able to copy and paste the link of the site in
question to use this feature or temporarily make Firefox the default browser
if the link is not clearly identified. Audible captcha is hit or miss
ranging from it sounding like people have foreign accents or speech
impediments when reading letters or numbers or having selected words not
clearly enunciated or separated from the audible phrase to type. You might
want to elaborate on how the captcha assistance would be provided.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randi" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 11:33 AM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] CAPTCHA Question
>I have to agree with Jeff. I can't answer the complience question, but
> as a screen reader user, it would drive me nuts to have to ask for
> assistence for a CAPTCHA.
>
> ~Randi and Guide Dog Jayden
>
> For me, acceptance was the first step towards recovery.
>
> On Apr 1, 2010, at 11:01 AM, Geof Collis wrote:
>
>> Hi Susan
>>
>> I'm barely patient with the audible CAPTCHA's I wouldn't even wait
>> one minute for a response. :O)
>>
>> cheers
>>
>> Geof
>>
>> At 01:58 PM 4/1/2010, you wrote:
>>> Was asked if having linked email address to request assistance was
>>> enough to
>>> meet 502.2.2.1 CAPTCHA if email was a 24 hour responder?
>>>
>>> Wasn't sure how to answer this, and would appreciate responses.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> --
>>> Susan R. Grossman
>>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>
>>> "Have I succeeded in reversing a 30-year trend of skepticism and
>>> cynicism
>>> about government? I confess that I have not. Maybe next year."
>>>
>>> -- White House political adviser David Axelrod
>>>
From: Moore,Michael (DARS)
Date: Fri, Apr 02 2010 10:03AM
Subject: Re: CAPTCHA Question
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Personally I would like to see visual and audio captcha eliminated entirely. As Jared has pointed out many times there are other methods that can be employed that are at least as effective. I recently (last weekend) attempted a password recovery for a popular web service and it took me 5 tries with the visual captcha before I was presented with one that I could actually make out, and my vision is 20-20 when wearing my glasses. After the third try I attempted the audio version and could not make that out at all. Of course too much rock and roll may have affected my hearing.
In my own personal warped opinion visual and auditory captcha are security snake sold to unwitting clients.
Finally to answer the original question, no a link to request access is not equivalent access and is therefore not accessible. It is also just bad business, equivalent to telling someone that they and anyone like them need to sit in the the back of the bus.
Mike Moore
From: J. B-Vincent
Date: Fri, Apr 02 2010 10:24AM
Subject: Re: CAPTCHA Question
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The only thing I would add to Michael's excellent summary is that some of the task-based CAPTCHAs (e.g., those requiring completion of an addition problem) can be problematic for people with various types of cognitive disabilities, people who are not fluent in the language in which the CAPTCHA is provided, and so on.
--Jane Vincent, Center for Accessible Technology
--- On Fri, 4/2/10, Moore,Michael (DARS) < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
From: Moore,Michael (DARS) < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] CAPTCHA Question
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Date: Friday, April 2, 2010, 8:04 AM
Personally I would like to see visual and audio captcha eliminated entirely. As Jared has pointed out many times there are other methods that can be employed that are at least as effective. I recently (last weekend) attempted a password recovery for a popular web service and it took me 5 tries with the visual captcha before I was presented with one that I could actually make out, and my vision is 20-20 when wearing my glasses. After the third try I attempted the audio version and could not make that out at all. Of course too much rock and roll may have affected my hearing.
In my own personal warped opinion visual and auditory captcha are security snake sold to unwitting clients.
Finally to answer the original question, no a link to request access is not equivalent access and is therefore not accessible. It is also just bad business, equivalent to telling someone that they and anyone like them need to sit in the the back of the bus.
Mike Moore
From: Simius Puer
Date: Fri, Apr 02 2010 1:33PM
Subject: Re: CAPTCHA Question
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Agreed, in many cases there is a far superior solution than CAPTCHA and it
is often mis-sold as a solution due to the lack of understanding about the
alternatives and the problems associated with it.
Accessibility aside for a moment, forms that use CAPTCHA are less likely to
be filled in & submitted as it is an extra chore for the user. Some people
*choose *not to complete the form, whilst others with no real disability
still *struggle *to do so. So there is a business case for not using them.
I wrote a non-teccie based article "Preventing spam in Web forms without
CAPTCHAs <http://www.simiusweb.ie/formspam>;" aimed at business decision
makers to help them understand the issue better last year: [
http://www.simiusweb.ie/formspam]
Finally to answer the original question, no a link to request access is not
> equivalent access and is therefore not accessible. It is also just bad
> business, equivalent to telling someone that they and anyone like them need
> to sit in the the back of the bus.
>
Not sure I would agree with this. Sure, it's shoddy practice and there are
alternatives, including getting rid of the CAPTCHA (yay), but there is a
section in the WCAG that mentions "if all else fails provide an accessible
alternative". I'm not sure how this would be not "equivalent access". I
guess some of that would depend on how it was implemented, but if it got the
same result, albeit via a different (and hopefully accessible) route, then
there isn't discrimination. Even the laws that enforce accessibility only
require "reasonable steps" to be taken....just playing Devil's advocate
here!
Personally though, I'm with you on ditching CAPTCHA where feasibly possible
as I'm not disabled and I struggle with them (and know plenty more people
who do) too.
From: John Foliot
Date: Fri, Apr 02 2010 1:36PM
Subject: Re: CAPTCHA Question
← Previous message | Next message →
Moore,Michael wrote:
>
> Personally I would like to see visual and audio captcha eliminated
> entirely.
Hi All,
Last week, while attending CSUN, I more than once brought up the topic of
CAPTCHA, laughingly saying that we should solve the problem by Sunday. (I
was fuzzy on *which* Sunday, but it got the discussion rolling...)
In seriousness though, to eliminate CAPTCHA, an alternative must be
presented to replace the need for CAPTCHA - to thwart spam-bots. I chatted
up the idea of using OpenID (http://openid.net/) as a replacement for
CAPTCHA, and overall the reception I received was generally positive.
Increasingly, we are all gathering up at least one OpenID 'key', which can
be used to log into a myriad of sites already: OpenId keys/providers
include Google (Gmail, GoogleDocs, etc.), Yahoo!, Flickr, MySpace,
Facebook, WordPress, AOL, Verisign and Six Apart to name but a few. Given
this impressive list of high-profile providers, penetration of OpenID keys
*should* be pretty good already (although getting stats on this is
virtually impossible).
Those of us who've spent any time looking at the CAPTCHA issue know that
as far as security is concerned, CAPTCHAs are the equivalent to those
cheap little locks we can buy for our suitcases - they keep the cases
closed, but not much more; one swift knock with a hammer and they are
done. CAPTCHA's can be deciphered by low-wage humans in locations such as
India, China and parts of Africa, and 'cracked' CAPTCHAs are now being
provided by bots as well
(http://arstechnica.com/security/news/2008/04/gone-in-60-seconds-spambot-c
racks-livehotmail-captcha.ars)
I believe that what we need to do is 'encourage' sites that are using
CAPTCHAs to *also* provide access to the _whatever_ using EITHER the
CAPTCHA or an OpenID. The key here is to get some critical mass behind
the idea, to have everyday site owners start to ask themselves if using
something other than, or in tandem with, CAPTCHA is something that they
should consider. If enough people ask, they will begin to consider it
seriously. (I hopefully planted this idea in the minds of some well placed
Googlers, Google being the current folks behind the reCAPTCHA service)
I want to follow up on this more, but currently am swamped with other
stuff that is more pressing. However, if somebody wants to run with the
ball, that would be cool. If you are too busy to do much, consider as a
minimum that the next time you encounter a CAPTCHA that you take the 30
seconds it will take to email (or use the form/comment box) to ask the
site owner who forced you through that hell to consider offering OpenID
sign-in _along with_ the CAPTCHA. Every tidal wave starts with the first
drop of water, so collectively we need to do this together.
Tweet the idea, pass this email on to friends, relatives, colleagues and
anyone else you can think of.
Let's bury CAPTCHAs in the same coffin as IE6 - we can do it!
JF
From: Carin Headrick
Date: Fri, Apr 02 2010 2:00PM
Subject: Re: CAPTCHA Question
← Previous message | Next message →
If you are too busy to do much, consider as a
minimum that the next time you encounter a CAPTCHA that you take the 30 seconds it will take to email (or use the form/comment box) to ask the site owner who forced you through that hell to consider offering OpenID
sign-in _along with_ the CAPTCHA.
That is, if you can submit comments without *another* captcha.
Carin
From: John Foliot
Date: Fri, Apr 02 2010 2:03PM
Subject: Re: CAPTCHA Question
← Previous message | Next message →
LOL, I didn't say it was perfect, but if we don't *TRY* then we're guilty
of letting it continue...
JF
>
From: Carin Headrick
Date: Fri, Apr 02 2010 2:21PM
Subject: Re: CAPTCHA Question
← Previous message | Next message →
Tis true. I just know I've tried to contact people before, and I've seen some pretty unsolvable ones even on the contact form. By unsolvable, I mean unsolvable by WebVisum and/or Solona.
Carin
----- Original Message -----
From: John Foliot
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 3:03 PM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] CAPTCHA Question
LOL, I didn't say it was perfect, but if we don't *TRY* then we're guilty
of letting it continue...
JF
>
From: ckrugman
Date: Sat, Apr 03 2010 8:18PM
Subject: Re: CAPTCHA Question
← Previous message | Next message →
One way to deal with this issue is to research the owners of the domain and
contact them through other channels to address this issue. When doing a
Woisy search it usually shown the registered address and telephone number of
the domain owner.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Foliot" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "'WebAIM Discussion List'" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] CAPTCHA Question
> LOL, I didn't say it was perfect, but if we don't *TRY* then we're guilty
> of letting it continue...
>
> JF
>
>
>>
From: Kevin Miller
Date: Mon, Apr 05 2010 5:15PM
Subject: Re: CAPTCHA Question
← Previous message | Next message →
We chose to filter comments and forms on our site using Mollom (mollom.com)
for spam prevention. While the service does fall back on CAPTCHAs, you'll
only get them if the system thinks your submission is spam.
Mollom is free to a certain point, and their audio CAPTCHAs are better than
most.
On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 6:17 PM, < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> One way to deal with this issue is to research the owners of the domain and
> contact them through other channels to address this issue. When doing a
> Woisy search it usually shown the registered address and telephone number
> of
> the domain owner.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Foliot" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: "'WebAIM Discussion List'" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 12:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] CAPTCHA Question
>
>
> > LOL, I didn't say it was perfect, but if we don't *TRY* then we're guilty
> > of letting it continue...
> >
> > JF
> >
> >
> >>
From: ckrugman
Date: Tue, Apr 06 2010 3:15AM
Subject: Re: CAPTCHA Question
← Previous message | Next message →
could you furnish a link to this audio captcha? I would like to try it.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Miller" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 3:14 PM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] CAPTCHA Question
> We chose to filter comments and forms on our site using Mollom
> (mollom.com)
> for spam prevention. While the service does fall back on CAPTCHAs, you'll
> only get them if the system thinks your submission is spam.
>
> Mollom is free to a certain point, and their audio CAPTCHAs are better
> than
> most.
>
> On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 6:17 PM, < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> One way to deal with this issue is to research the owners of the domain
>> and
>> contact them through other channels to address this issue. When doing a
>> Woisy search it usually shown the registered address and telephone number
>> of
>> the domain owner.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John Foliot" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> To: "'WebAIM Discussion List'" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 12:03 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] CAPTCHA Question
>>
>>
>> > LOL, I didn't say it was perfect, but if we don't *TRY* then we're
>> > guilty
>> > of letting it continue...
>> >
>> > JF
>> >
>> >
>> >>
From: Kevin Miller
Date: Tue, Apr 06 2010 11:15AM
Subject: Re: CAPTCHA Question
← Previous message | Next message →
If you go to the registration page on Mollom's site:
http://mollom.com/user/register
You can see the captcha on the bottom of the form with an audio link to play
with.
On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 1:17 AM, < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> could you furnish a link to this audio captcha? I would like to try it.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kevin Miller" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 3:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] CAPTCHA Question
>
>
> > We chose to filter comments and forms on our site using Mollom
> > (mollom.com)
> > for spam prevention. While the service does fall back on CAPTCHAs, you'll
> > only get them if the system thinks your submission is spam.
> >
> > Mollom is free to a certain point, and their audio CAPTCHAs are better
> > than
> > most.
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 6:17 PM, < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> >> One way to deal with this issue is to research the owners of the domain
> >> and
> >> contact them through other channels to address this issue. When doing a
> >> Woisy search it usually shown the registered address and telephone
> number
> >> of
> >> the domain owner.
> >> Chuck
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "John Foliot" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> >> To: "'WebAIM Discussion List'" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> >> Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 12:03 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] CAPTCHA Question
> >>
> >>
> >> > LOL, I didn't say it was perfect, but if we don't *TRY* then we're
> >> > guilty
> >> > of letting it continue...
> >> >
> >> > JF
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>
From: Nelson-Brooks, Carolyn
Date: Tue, Apr 06 2010 12:57PM
Subject: Re: CAPTCHA Question
← Previous message | Next message →
Yea!!! I'm all for burying CAPTCHA IN ANY COFFIN!
From: ckrugman
Date: Wed, Apr 07 2010 2:09AM
Subject: Re: CAPTCHA Question
← Previous message | Next message →
for some reason the link to the audio captcha wouldn't play.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Miller" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] CAPTCHA Question
> If you go to the registration page on Mollom's site:
>
> http://mollom.com/user/register
>
> You can see the captcha on the bottom of the form with an audio link to
> play
> with.
>
> On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 1:17 AM, < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> could you furnish a link to this audio captcha? I would like to try it.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Kevin Miller" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 3:14 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] CAPTCHA Question
>>
>>
>> > We chose to filter comments and forms on our site using Mollom
>> > (mollom.com)
>> > for spam prevention. While the service does fall back on CAPTCHAs,
>> > you'll
>> > only get them if the system thinks your submission is spam.
>> >
>> > Mollom is free to a certain point, and their audio CAPTCHAs are better
>> > than
>> > most.
>> >
>> > On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 6:17 PM, < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> >
>> >> One way to deal with this issue is to research the owners of the
>> >> domain
>> >> and
>> >> contact them through other channels to address this issue. When doing
>> >> a
>> >> Woisy search it usually shown the registered address and telephone
>> number
>> >> of
>> >> the domain owner.
>> >> Chuck
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "John Foliot" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> >> To: "'WebAIM Discussion List'" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> >> Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 12:03 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] CAPTCHA Question
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > LOL, I didn't say it was perfect, but if we don't *TRY* then we're
>> >> > guilty
>> >> > of letting it continue...
>> >> >
>> >> > JF
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >>
From: Randall Pope
Date: Fri, Apr 09 2010 7:18AM
Subject: Re: CAPTCHA Question
← Previous message | No next message
More of the reason to kill the CAPTCHA, the deaf-blind people cannot access
the CAPTCHA by vision or audio of any form.
With Warm Regards,
Randall "Randy" Pope
American Association of the Deaf-Blind
Website: http://www.aadb.org
301 495-4402 VP/TTY
301 495-4403 Voice
301 495-4404 Fax
AIM: RandyAADB
Want to keep up with the latest news in the Deaf-Blind Community? Consider
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