E-mail List Archives

You are here: Home > Community > E-mail List Archives > View Thread

Thread: Strike-through Text

Number of posts in this thread: 18 (In chronological order)

From: David Ashleydale
Date: Wed, Mar 27 2013 6:11PM
Subject: Strike-through Text
No previous message | Next message →

Hi,

Have any of you ever come across an accessible solution for text with a
strike-through effect applied to it? I just saw an implementation that used
"text-decoration: line-through" in the CSS, but JAWS 14 just reads the text
as if nothing is different about it at all.

And I think that <strike> and <s> are deprecated in HTML 4.

Would this need to be shored up for screen reading software with some
hidden text explaining that the words are struck out?

The example of this is a page that has a fee for something, but the fee is
struck out and the word "Free!" is placed after it. The page author wants
to show that there used to be a fee, but now it's free.

Thanks,
David Ashleydale

From: Lucy Greco
Date: Wed, Mar 27 2013 7:33PM
Subject: Re: Strike-through Text
← Previous message | Next message →

I have never heard of anything that works to show this.

Lucia Greco
Web Access Analyst
IST-Campus Technology Services
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
Follow me on twitter @accessaces

From: Georg
Date: Wed, Mar 27 2013 8:13PM
Subject: Re: Strike-through Text
← Previous message | Next message →

Would <del> and <ins> work - be announced? In many (most ?) cases that's
the intended meaning anyway.

regards
Georg

From: Mohit Rajan Verma
Date: Wed, Mar 27 2013 8:16PM
Subject: Re: Strike-through Text
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi David,

It is one of the important misses in Screen Reading software, they don't
inform user about the strike through text and read it as it is. The strike
through text is similar to deleted text (same can be viewed using Microsoft
Word Track Changes feature), one of the solution the web developers could
provide is to place the strike through word in between explicit tags such
as <Start Delete> and <End Delete>.

Regards,
Mohit Verma

On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 5:41 AM, David Ashleydale < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Have any of you ever come across an accessible solution for text with a
> strike-through effect applied to it? I just saw an implementation that used
> "text-decoration: line-through" in the CSS, but JAWS 14 just reads the text
> as if nothing is different about it at all.
>
> And I think that <strike> and <s> are deprecated in HTML 4.
>
> Would this need to be shored up for screen reading software with some
> hidden text explaining that the words are struck out?
>
> The example of this is a page that has a fee for something, but the fee is
> struck out and the word "Free!" is placed after it. The page author wants
> to show that there used to be a fee, but now it's free.
>
> Thanks,
> David Ashleydale
> > > >

From: Mohit Rajan Verma
Date: Wed, Mar 27 2013 8:21PM
Subject: Re: Strike-through Text
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Georg,

As I know, Screen Reader doesn't announce these tags and that's why it make
it difficult for the users with the screen readers.

Regards,
Mohit Verma

On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 7:43 AM, Georg < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Would <del> and <ins> work - be announced? In many (most ?) cases that's
> the intended meaning anyway.
>
> regards
> Georg
>
> > > >

From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Wed, Mar 27 2013 9:22PM
Subject: Re: Strike-through Text
← Previous message | Next message →

Mohit wrote: "The strike through text is similar to deleted text (same can
be viewed using Microsoft Word Track Changes feature), one of the solution
the web developers could provide is to place the strike through word in
between explicit tags such as <Start Delete> and <End Delete>."

As an editor, I think there's a subtle difference between deleting text and
striking it.

If the text is deleted, then it should be removed completely from the file.
You won't know that it was ever in the file.

But with strikethrough, I'm letting the reader know that the text has
changed: I'm showing what the original text was (indicated as crossed out
with the strikethrough) and that there is either new text to replace it or
that nothing will replace it.

Strikethrough is also used in creative writing to indicate a change in
thought or message, usually in a humorous way.

I don't think the <del> tag adequately conveys the subtleties of the
message.

-Bevi Chagnon
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
www.PubCom.com - Trainers, Consultants, Designers, Developers.
Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
Accessibility.
New schedule for classes and workshops coming in 2013.

From: Jukka K. Korpela
Date: Thu, Mar 28 2013 12:03AM
Subject: Re: Strike-through Text
← Previous message | Next message →

Chagnon | PubCom wrote:

> As an editor, I think there's a subtle difference between deleting text and
> striking it.

There is an essential difference between deleting text and marking it as
deleted, by striking or otherwise.

> If the text is deleted, then it should be removed completely from the file.
> You won't know that it was ever in the file.

But HTML, or CSS, has no way of actually deleting anything in that
sense. They can be used to mark some text as deleted, in the sense that
the text still appears but in a manner that suggests that it is no more
applicable. Saying that <del> markup means deleted text is thus somewhat
misleading.

If <del> really meant deleted text, we could use a CSS rule like del {
display: none }, at least for speech and Braille medias. This might
actually be better than not doing anything and letting browsers render
the <del> element content as normal content. But it would lose the
information that something is present in the document but indicated as
not applicable.

Consider the following example: "The price is <del>200</del> 150
dollars". Reading it as "The price is 200 150 dollars" would be
confusing, wouldn't it? Reading it as "The price is 150 dollars" would
make much more sense, though it would omit the information that the
price was previously 200 dollars.

> I don't think the <del> tag adequately conveys the subtleties of the
> message.

I don't see subtlety as the problem here. The problem is that <del>, as
well as <strike> and <s>, which effectively mean the same thing, conveys
a relatively clear message in visual rendering, but things go all wrong
in non-visual rendering. What the nuances of the intentions of the
author were are not relevant.

We might consider using CSS code like the following:

@media braille, embossed, speech {
del:before { content: "Deleted: "; }
del:after { content: " (End of deletion.) "; }
}

This would be comparable to "reading quotes", as in "and I quote" and
"end of quote", or simply "quote" and "unquote".

I wonder how clumsy that would sound. But I cannot imagine any better
way to convey the idea.

Yucca

From: Detlev Fischer
Date: Thu, Mar 28 2013 1:30AM
Subject: Re: Strike-through Text
← Previous message | Next message →

Just checked NVDA. here, you can make it annonce <del> and <ins> but not semantically, just presentationally.
Checking "Report font attributes" in Preferences / Document formatting, it will announce <del> as strikethrough and <ins> as underline. Which I guess is better than nothing as you will often know that you are going to look at a document with changes, and can explicitly turn on an output option that may otherwise be annoying.

under <strikethrough>

----- Original Message -----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Date: 28.03.2013 03:21:12
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Strike-through Text

> Hi Georg,
>
> As I know, Screen Reader doesn't announce these tags and that's why it make
> it difficult for the users with the screen readers.
>
> Regards,
> Mohit Verma
>
> On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 7:43 AM, Georg < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> Would <del> and <ins> work - be announced? In many (most ?) cases that's
>> the intended meaning anyway.
>>
>> regards
>> Georg
>>
>> >> >> >>
> > >

From: Mohit Rajan Verma
Date: Thu, Mar 28 2013 1:36AM
Subject: Re: Strike-through Text
← Previous message | Next message →

Dear Mr. Fischer,

Can you please help me to understand what do you exactly mean by
"here, you can make it annonce <del> and <ins> but not semantically, just
presentationally."

I couldn't get the idea.

Thanks in advance.

Regards,
Mohit Verma

On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 1:00 PM, Detlev Fischer < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> wrote:

> Just checked NVDA. here, you can make it annonce <del> and <ins> but not
> semantically, just presentationally.
> Checking "Report font attributes" in Preferences / Document formatting, it
> will announce <del> as strikethrough and <ins> as underline. Which I guess
> is better than nothing as you will often know that you are going to look at
> a document with changes, and can explicitly turn on an output option that
> may otherwise be annoying.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> under <strikethrough>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Date: 28.03.2013 03:21:12
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Strike-through Text
>
>
> > Hi Georg,
> >
> > As I know, Screen Reader doesn't announce these tags and that's why it
> make
> > it difficult for the users with the screen readers.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Mohit Verma
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 7:43 AM, Georg < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> >> Would <del> and <ins> work - be announced? In many (most ?) cases that's
> >> the intended meaning anyway.
> >>
> >> regards
> >> Georg
> >>
> >> > >> > >> > >>
> > > > > > >
> > > >

From: Detlev Fischer
Date: Thu, Mar 28 2013 1:53AM
Subject: Re: Strike-through Text
← Previous message | Next message →

What I meant is that in NVDA, you can change settings so that text marked with <del> is announced es "strikethrough" and text marked up with <ins> is announced as "underline". These announcements express the presentational aspect (that the text is striken out or undelined), not the semantic meaning (that it is was marked as 'deleted' or marked as 'inserted').

I hope it is clearer now!
Best, Detlev

> Dear Mr. Fischer,
>
> Can you please help me to understand what do you exactly mean by
> "here, you can make it annonce <del> and <ins> but not semantically, just
> presentationally."
>
> I couldn't get the idea.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Regards,
> Mohit Verma
>
> On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 1:00 PM, Detlev Fischer < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> wrote:
>
>> Just checked NVDA. here, you can make it annonce <del> and <ins> but not
>> semantically, just presentationally.
>> Checking "Report font attributes" in Preferences / Document formatting, it
>> will announce <del> as strikethrough and <ins> as underline. Which I guess
>> is better than nothing as you will often know that you are going to look at
>> a document with changes, and can explicitly turn on an output option that
>> may otherwise be annoying.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> under <strikethrough>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> Date: 28.03.2013 03:21:12
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Strike-through Text
>>
>>
>> > Hi Georg,
>> >
>> > As I know, Screen Reader doesn't announce these tags and that's why it
>> make
>> > it difficult for the users with the screen readers.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Mohit Verma
>> >
>> > On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 7:43 AM, Georg < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Would <del> and <ins> work - be announced? In many (most ?) cases that's
>> >> the intended meaning anyway.
>> >>
>> >> regards
>> >> Georg
>> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>
>> > >> > >> > >>
>> >> >> >>
> > >

From: Jukka K. Korpela
Date: Thu, Mar 28 2013 2:46AM
Subject: Re: Strike-through Text
← Previous message | Next message →

2013-03-28 9:30, Detlev Fischer wrote:

> Just checked NVDA. here, you can make it annonce <del> and <ins> but
> not semantically, just presentationally. Checking "Report font
> attributes" in Preferences / Document formatting, it will announce
> <del> as strikethrough and <ins> as underline.

Since the option name refers to "font attributes", I presume it also
applies to <s>, <strike>, and <u> as well as to any text for which
overstriking or underlining has been set in CSS. Right? Does the latter
mean that links, too, will be announced as underlined.

> Which I guess is
> better than nothing as you will often know that you are going to look
> at a document with changes, and can explicitly turn on an output
> option that may otherwise be annoying.

I guess so, but from an authoring point of view, it is rather
insufficient. If we think that uttering "strikethrough" before some text
(without indicating where it ends) is sufficient, then I guess the CSS
approach that I outlined in an earlier message could be used as
simplified. That is, simply using del:before { content: "deleted"; } -
though the user may have difficulties in distinguishing this from an
occurrence of the word "deleted" in the text. Maybe an alternate voice
could be asked for in CSS for the generated content?

Yucca

From: Mohit Rajan Verma
Date: Thu, Mar 28 2013 3:25AM
Subject: Re: Strike-through Text
← Previous message | Next message →

Thanks Mr. Fischer, it is very much clear now.

Regards,
Mohit Verma

On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 1:23 PM, Detlev Fischer < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> wrote:

> What I meant is that in NVDA, you can change settings so that text marked
> with <del> is announced es "strikethrough" and text marked up with <ins> is
> announced as "underline". These announcements express the presentational
> aspect (that the text is striken out or undelined), not the semantic
> meaning (that it is was marked as 'deleted' or marked as 'inserted').
>
> I hope it is clearer now!
> Best, Detlev
>
>
> > Dear Mr. Fischer,
> >
> > Can you please help me to understand what do you exactly mean by
> > "here, you can make it annonce <del> and <ins> but not semantically,
> just
> > presentationally."
> >
> > I couldn't get the idea.
> >
> > Thanks in advance.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Mohit Verma
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 1:00 PM, Detlev Fischer <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >> wrote:
> >
> >> Just checked NVDA. here, you can make it annonce <del> and <ins> but
> not
> >> semantically, just presentationally.
> >> Checking "Report font attributes" in Preferences / Document formatting,
> it
> >> will announce <del> as strikethrough and <ins> as underline. Which I
> guess
> >> is better than nothing as you will often know that you are going to
> look at
> >> a document with changes, and can explicitly turn on an output option
> that
> >> may otherwise be annoying.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> under <strikethrough>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >> Date: 28.03.2013 03:21:12
> >> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Strike-through Text
> >>
> >>
> >> > Hi Georg,
> >> >
> >> > As I know, Screen Reader doesn't announce these tags and that's why it
> >> make
> >> > it difficult for the users with the screen readers.
> >> >
> >> > Regards,
> >> > Mohit Verma
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 7:43 AM, Georg < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Would <del> and <ins> work - be announced? In many (most ?) cases
> that's
> >> >> the intended meaning anyway.
> >> >>
> >> >> regards
> >> >> Georg
> >> >>
> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>
> >> > > >> > > >> > > >>
> >> > >> > >> > >>
> > > > > > >
> > > >

From: Kevan Mander
Date: Thu, Mar 28 2013 6:25AM
Subject: Re: Strike-through Text
← Previous message | Next message →

One of the things that I found when working on a document that had a lot of <ins> and <del>s is there was no announcement in JAWS of when the inserted or deleted matter ended and normal text resumed.

Eventually we settled for a span announcing the start and end of the insertions and deletions.

From: Morin, Gary (NIH/OD) [E]
Date: Fri, Mar 29 2013 9:07AM
Subject: Re: Redacted Text (was Strike-through Text)
← Previous message | Next message →

As a related item (in my mind), what recommendations or experience does anyone have in addressing "redacted" text - i.e., text that is blacked-out, such as a person's name in a legal or medical document. It doesn't come up as often as I'd expect, but the issue does surface every now and then. How would you format it in Word, PDF, html, etc.? Is the blacked-out text preserved as characters (e.g., XXXXX) or as an image with an alt-text and, if so, what alt-text is useful without becoming annoying every time it's used, which could be quite frequently in any one document.

Thanks,

Gary M. Morin, Program Analyst
NIH Office of the Chief Information Officer
10401 Fernwood Rd, Room 3G-17
Bethesda, MD 20892, Mail Stop: 4833

(301) 402-3924 Voice, 451-9326 TTY/NTS
New: 240 200 5030 Videophone; (301) 402-4464 Fax

http://508.nih.gov

Section 508 coordinators: http://ocio.od.nih.gov/Accessibility/Sec508coordinators.html

NIH Section 508 Team: mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ?subject=Section 508 Help or, for Section 508 Guidance, http://www.hhs.gov/web/508/index.html

Looking for Training: AT100 - Section 508 Electronic & IT Training - Phase II

Consider the environment. Please don't print this e-mail unless you really need to.

WHAT IF THE FIRST QUESTION WE ASKED WAS, "WHAT IS SO UNIQUE ABOUT THIS SITUATION THAT IT JUSTIFIES EXCLUSION? INSTEAD OF, "HOW MUCH DOES IT COST TO MAKE IT ACCESSIBLE?"

From: Cliff Tyllick
Date: Fri, Mar 29 2013 10:18AM
Subject: Re: Redacted Text (was Strike-through Text)
← Previous message | Next message →

From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Tue, Apr 02 2013 11:57AM
Subject: Re: Redacted Text (was Strike-through Text)
← Previous message | Next message →

Gary,
In acrobat you can redact text. In doing so, the text that is redacted is removed from the tag tree and content tree for the document, so when it is redacted it is gone.

Thanks,
AWK

Andrew Kirkpatrick
Group Product Manager, Accessibility
Adobe Systems

= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://twitter.com/awkawk
http://blogs.adobe.com/accessibility

From: Duff Johnson
Date: Tue, Apr 02 2013 1:30PM
Subject: Re: Redacted Text (was Strike-through Text)
← Previous message | Next message →

Gary,

First: Word and HTML. While some plugins are available (or so I've heard), successful redaction is rare in these formats; they just aren't well-suited to content removal. PDF, wherein each page essentially consists of lots of little drawings, is ideal in the vast majority of cases that don't involve a grease-pen or an Exacto knife (the traditional tools of redaction).

It's true you can redact PDF documents using Acrobat (and it's not the only such tool). There are, however, several things a responsible redactor needs to know that aren't altogether obvious..

1) Acrobat's redaction isn't comprehensive. While it removes content from the page it leaves the tags as-is. Accordingly, the fact of paragraphs, images, lists, etc. (don't forget the alt. text!!) remain in the tags tree even though they're been removed from the document. There's nothing left for AT to voice / zoom on / whatever, but the document structure is *not* redacted along with the content.

This might be fine for many applications, but national security agencies and other professionally paranoid types may feel otherwise. I also loathe Acrobat's selection model for redaction purposes, but I digress... that's not a gripe for this list.

2) The problem with Acrobat's redaction method from the accessibility point of view is that Acrobat by default leaves no indication that a redaction has occurred. A sighted user can see (in most cases) that a chunk of content is missing from the page, but this information is not available to AT users.

Whether redactions are invisible or visible, however, once you do redact using Acrobat you now need to ensure that your redactions (and the remaining content) are still tagged correctly. What if you redacted two items from a list? You'd need to remove those LI tags that used to include the redacted content, right? And so on.

I was thinking of writing a blog-post on this but I may as well spill it now.

How to redact PDF files in Acrobat while ensuring conformance with PDF/UA and WCAG 2.0:

1. Alter Acrobat's "Redaction Properties" to give the redacted area a Fill Color. Black seems to be the general favorite; I'm partial to a semi-transparent gray.

2. Go ahead and Mark areas or content for redaction, then Apply and Save. Now you have a nice PDF with blocks showing your redactions. So far, so good you have a visual indication that a redaction has taken place.

(I'll stop here to say that if your intention is to create *invisible* redactions - i.e. - that the fact of a redaction is *not* apparent to any reader, then leave your Acrobat redaction defaults alone (set to "transparent). You'll still need to do step 4, though).

4. Clean up your tags; remove the tags that once enclosed content now redacted. If you redacted text within a tag you'll need to split that tag into two (enclosing the content "before" and "after" the redaction to allow the redaction mark's tag to go into correct logical reading order.

5. Tag the redaction mark (a "Figure" tag is appropriate in today's PDF) with alt. text: "Redacted content" or other, as you prefer. Depending on how the document was created and the extent of your redactions you may prefer to simply re-tag the whole PDF. This has the advantage that the auto-tagger will find all the redaction blocks and tag them as "Figure" for you (or, it should).

I hope this helps.

Duff Johnson

Independent Consultant
ISO 32000 Intl. Project Co-Leader, US Chairman
ISO 14289 US Chairman
PDF Association Vice-Chairman

p +1.617.283.4226
e = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
w http://duff-johnson.com

On Apr 2, 2013, at 1:57 PM, Andrew Kirkpatrick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Gary,
> In acrobat you can redact text. In doing so, the text that is redacted is removed from the tag tree and content tree for the document, so when it is redacted it is gone.
>
> Thanks,
> AWK
>
> Andrew Kirkpatrick
> Group Product Manager, Accessibility
> Adobe Systems
>
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> http://twitter.com/awkawk
> http://blogs.adobe.com/accessibility
>
>
>

From: Cliff Tyllick
Date: Tue, Apr 02 2013 1:34PM
Subject: Re: Redacted Text (was Strike-through Text)
← Previous message | No next message

Andrew, does Acrobat leave nothing behind to indicate the extent or nature of the redaction? For example, using a screen reader would I be able to tell whether it was one word or a paragraph? Or whether it also happened to be a name or a date?

And, if I wanted to mark up the redaction that way, would I be able to attach tags accordingly?

Cliff

Cliff Tyllick
Senior Business Manager
AT&T Corporate Accessibility Technology Office

From: Andrew Kirkpatrick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Tuesday, April 2, 2013 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Redacted Text (was Strike-through Text)

Gary,
In acrobat you can redact text. In doing so, the text that is redacted is removed from the tag tree and content tree for the document, so when it is redacted it is gone.

Thanks,
AWK

Andrew Kirkpatrick
Group Product Manager, Accessibility
Adobe Systems

= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://twitter.com/awkawk
http://blogs.adobe.com/accessibility