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Thread: Usage of title attribute or hidden label
Number of posts in this thread: 25 (In chronological order)
From: jyothi gogireddy
Date: Wed, Nov 06 2013 6:23AM
Subject: Usage of title attribute or hidden label
No previous message | Next message →
Hi All,
I have a scenario where I can't use visual text label does title attribute to input field or a hidden label will be a better option to implement as per accessibility guideline.
Thanks in advance.
Regards,
Jyothi
Accessibility Consultant
From: Alastair Campbell
Date: Wed, Nov 06 2013 7:00AM
Subject: Re: Usage of title attribute or hidden label
← Previous message | Next message →
I would default to hidden label in that situation: It tends to be more
robust in different situations, and doesn't cause mouse-over text to appear
which can confuse the purpose of it.
-Alastair
From: Paul J. Adam
Date: Wed, Nov 06 2013 7:44AM
Subject: Re: Usage of title attribute or hidden label
← Previous message | Next message →
Title attribute, if you want a visible tooltip, can work as an accessible name or aria-label if you dont want a visible tooltip. Visually hidden labels work too, though Ive seen that if theyre positioned off screen VoiceOver for iOS focus gets messed up visually. Test on your target devices.
Paul J. Adam
Accessibility Evangelist
www.deque.com
On Nov 6, 2013, at 8:00 AM, Alastair Campbell < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> I would default to hidden label in that situation: It tends to be more
> robust in different situations, and doesn't cause mouse-over text to appear
> which can confuse the purpose of it.
>
> -Alastair
> > >
From: Don Mauck
Date: Wed, Nov 06 2013 8:05AM
Subject: Re: Usage of title attribute or hidden label
← Previous message | Next message →
I would think that the title attribute should work.
-----Original Message-----
From: jyothi gogireddy [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 6:23 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Usage of title attribute or hidden label
Hi All,
I have a scenario where I can't use visual text label does title attribute to input field or a hidden label will be a better option to implement as per accessibility guideline.
Thanks in advance.
Regards,
Jyothi
Accessibility Consultant
From: Jennifer Sutton
Date: Wed, Nov 06 2013 9:07AM
Subject: Re: Usage of title attribute or hidden label
← Previous message | Next message →
So, to those who are recommending the title attribute, I'm wondering
whether this article from the Paciello Group is relevant, so may be
worth considering. It's from January of this year:
http://blog.paciellogroup.com/2013/01/using-the-html-title-attribute-updated/
At 07:05 AM 11/6/2013, Don Mauck wrote:
>I would think that the title attribute should work.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: jyothi gogireddy [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
>Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 6:23 AM
>To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>Subject: [WebAIM] Usage of title attribute or hidden label
>
>Hi All,
>
>I have a scenario where I can't use visual text label does title
>attribute to input field or a hidden label will be a better option
>to implement as per accessibility guideline.
>
>Thanks in advance.
>
>Regards,
>Jyothi
>Accessibility Consultant
>>>>>>
From: Paul J. Adam
Date: Wed, Nov 06 2013 9:12AM
Subject: Re: Usage of title attribute or hidden label
← Previous message | Next message →
Hey Jennifer, so thats one article from a TPG employee saying dont use the title attribute.
Heres an article from another TPG employee saying DO use the title attribute ;) http://juicystudio.com/article/hidden-label-firefox-bug.php
I also disagree that the title attribute is bad and posted that comment on Steves article you linked to.
Paul J. Adam
Accessibility Evangelist
www.deque.com
On Nov 6, 2013, at 10:07 AM, Jennifer Sutton < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> So, to those who are recommending the title attribute, I'm wondering
> whether this article from the Paciello Group is relevant, so may be
> worth considering. It's from January of this year:
> http://blog.paciellogroup.com/2013/01/using-the-html-title-attribute-updated/
>
> At 07:05 AM 11/6/2013, Don Mauck wrote:
>> I would think that the title attribute should work.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: jyothi gogireddy [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 6:23 AM
>> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> Subject: [WebAIM] Usage of title attribute or hidden label
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I have a scenario where I can't use visual text label does title
>> attribute to input field or a hidden label will be a better option
>> to implement as per accessibility guideline.
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Jyothi
>> Accessibility Consultant
>> >> >> >> >> >> >
> > >
From: Gunderson, Jon R
Date: Wed, Nov 06 2013 9:13AM
Subject: Re: Usage of title attribute or hidden label
← Previous message | Next message →
Another option is to use the aria-label attribute:
http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/states_and_properties#aria-label
It works just like the title attribute, but produces no tooltip.
Example:
<input type="text" name="firstname" size="15" aria-label="First Name">
Jon
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of jyothi gogireddy
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 7:23 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Usage of title attribute or hidden label
Hi All,
I have a scenario where I can't use visual text label does title attribute to input field or a hidden label will be a better option to implement as per accessibility guideline.
Thanks in advance.
Regards,
Jyothi
Accessibility Consultant
From: Holli Smith
Date: Wed, Nov 06 2013 9:16AM
Subject: Re: Usage of title attribute or hidden label
← Previous message | Next message →
I believe the recommendation at the deque conference was to use both title
attribute and an aria label to support the maximum combination of browsers
and screenreaders
On Nov 6, 2013 11:14 AM, "Gunderson, Jon R" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Another option is to use the aria-label attribute:
>
> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/states_and_properties#aria-label
>
> It works just like the title attribute, but produces no tooltip.
>
> Example:
>
> <input type="text" name="firstname" size="15" aria-label="First Name">
>
> Jon
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto:
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of jyothi gogireddy
> Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 7:23 AM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: [WebAIM] Usage of title attribute or hidden label
>
> Hi All,
>
> I have a scenario where I can't use visual text label does title attribute
> to input field or a hidden label will be a better option to implement as
> per accessibility guideline.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Regards,
> Jyothi
> Accessibility Consultant
> > > messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > >
From: Gunderson, Jon R
Date: Wed, Nov 06 2013 9:22AM
Subject: Re: Usage of title attribute or hidden label
← Previous message | Next message →
Holli,
What legacy browser/screen reader combination was Deque concerned about not supporting aria-label?
Jon
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Holli Smith
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 10:17 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Usage of title attribute or hidden label
I believe the recommendation at the deque conference was to use both title attribute and an aria label to support the maximum combination of browsers and screenreaders On Nov 6, 2013 11:14 AM, "Gunderson, Jon R" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Another option is to use the aria-label attribute:
>
> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/states_and_properties#aria-label
>
> It works just like the title attribute, but produces no tooltip.
>
> Example:
>
> <input type="text" name="firstname" size="15" aria-label="First Name">
>
> Jon
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto:
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of jyothi gogireddy
> Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 7:23 AM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: [WebAIM] Usage of title attribute or hidden label
>
> Hi All,
>
> I have a scenario where I can't use visual text label does title
> attribute to input field or a hidden label will be a better option to
> implement as per accessibility guideline.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Regards,
> Jyothi
> Accessibility Consultant
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
From: Jennifer Sutton
Date: Wed, Nov 06 2013 9:27AM
Subject: Re: Usage of title attribute or hidden label
← Previous message | Next message →
Paul, et al:
Paul, thanks for your post. Now, it seems to me, the original
poster has a range of articles and opinions upon which to base this decision.
I was simply seeking to present a wider perspective; your response
feels like you're aiming for more of a personal debate than I am.
Jennifer
At 08:12 AM 11/6/2013, Paul J. Adam wrote:
>Hey Jennifer, so that's one article from a TPG employee saying don't
>use the title attribute.
>
>Here's an article from another TPG employee saying DO use the title
>attribute ;) http://juicystudio.com/article/hidden-label-firefox-bug.php
>
>I also disagree that the title attribute is bad and posted that
>comment on Steve's article you linked to.
>
>Paul J. Adam
>Accessibility Evangelist
>www.deque.com
>
>On Nov 6, 2013, at 10:07 AM, Jennifer Sutton < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > So, to those who are recommending the title attribute, I'm wondering
> > whether this article from the Paciello Group is relevant, so may be
> > worth considering. It's from January of this year:
> >
> http://blog.paciellogroup.com/2013/01/using-the-html-title-attribute-updated/
From: Holli Smith
Date: Wed, Nov 06 2013 9:33AM
Subject: Re: Usage of title attribute or hidden label
← Previous message | Next message →
I would have to test it to be sure but I think jaws and IE
On Nov 6, 2013 11:23 AM, "Gunderson, Jon R" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Holli,
>
> What legacy browser/screen reader combination was Deque concerned about
> not supporting aria-label?
>
> Jon
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto:
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Holli Smith
> Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 10:17 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Usage of title attribute or hidden label
>
> I believe the recommendation at the deque conference was to use both title
> attribute and an aria label to support the maximum combination of browsers
> and screenreaders On Nov 6, 2013 11:14 AM, "Gunderson, Jon R" <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Another option is to use the aria-label attribute:
> >
> > http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/states_and_properties#aria-label
> >
> > It works just like the title attribute, but produces no tooltip.
> >
> > Example:
> >
> > <input type="text" name="firstname" size="15" aria-label="First Name">
> >
> > Jon
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto:
> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of jyothi gogireddy
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 7:23 AM
> > To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > Subject: [WebAIM] Usage of title attribute or hidden label
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I have a scenario where I can't use visual text label does title
> > attribute to input field or a hidden label will be a better option to
> > implement as per accessibility guideline.
> >
> > Thanks in advance.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Jyothi
> > Accessibility Consultant
> > > > > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > > > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >
> > > messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > >
From: Gunderson, Jon R
Date: Wed, Nov 06 2013 9:38AM
Subject: Re: Usage of title attribute or hidden label
← Previous message | Next message →
JAWS has support aria-label for quite a while, I think as early as Jaws 12.
JAWS will use aria-label even if IE ignores it.
Jon
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Holli Smith
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 10:34 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Usage of title attribute or hidden label
I would have to test it to be sure but I think jaws and IE On Nov 6, 2013 11:23 AM, "Gunderson, Jon R" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Holli,
>
> What legacy browser/screen reader combination was Deque concerned
> about not supporting aria-label?
>
> Jon
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto:
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Holli Smith
> Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 10:17 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Usage of title attribute or hidden label
>
> I believe the recommendation at the deque conference was to use both
> title attribute and an aria label to support the maximum combination
> of browsers and screenreaders On Nov 6, 2013 11:14 AM, "Gunderson, Jon
> R" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Another option is to use the aria-label attribute:
> >
> > http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/states_and_properties#aria-label
> >
> > It works just like the title attribute, but produces no tooltip.
> >
> > Example:
> >
> > <input type="text" name="firstname" size="15" aria-label="First
> > Name">
> >
> > Jon
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto:
> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of jyothi gogireddy
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 7:23 AM
> > To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > Subject: [WebAIM] Usage of title attribute or hidden label
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I have a scenario where I can't use visual text label does title
> > attribute to input field or a hidden label will be a better option
> > to implement as per accessibility guideline.
> >
> > Thanks in advance.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Jyothi
> > Accessibility Consultant
> > > > > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > > > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
From: Paul J. Adam
Date: Wed, Nov 06 2013 10:01AM
Subject: Re: Usage of title attribute or hidden label
← Previous message | Next message →
Hey Jennifer, no Im not aiming for a personal debate. Im just trying to point out that all Accessibility experts, even those in the same company have differing opinions/evidence for why to use or not use the title attribute.
Im always open for a good Accessibility debate however :)
On Nov 6, 2013, at 10:27 AM, Jennifer Sutton < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Paul, et al:
>
> Paul, thanks for your post. Now, it seems to me, the original
> poster has a range of articles and opinions upon which to base this decision.
>
> I was simply seeking to present a wider perspective; your response
> feels like you're aiming for more of a personal debate than I am.
>
> Jennifer
>
>
> At 08:12 AM 11/6/2013, Paul J. Adam wrote:
>> Hey Jennifer, so that's one article from a TPG employee saying don't
>> use the title attribute.
>>
>> Here's an article from another TPG employee saying DO use the title
>> attribute ;) http://juicystudio.com/article/hidden-label-firefox-bug.php
>>
>> I also disagree that the title attribute is bad and posted that
>> comment on Steve's article you linked to.
>>
>> Paul J. Adam
>> Accessibility Evangelist
>> www.deque.com
>>
>> On Nov 6, 2013, at 10:07 AM, Jennifer Sutton < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>
>>> So, to those who are recommending the title attribute, I'm wondering
>>> whether this article from the Paciello Group is relevant, so may be
>>> worth considering. It's from January of this year:
>>>
>> http://blog.paciellogroup.com/2013/01/using-the-html-title-attribute-updated/
>
> > >
From: Paul J. Adam
Date: Wed, Nov 06 2013 10:05AM
Subject: Re: Usage of title attribute or hidden label
← Previous message | Next message →
Hey Jon, I recommend using both attributes if you want the visual tooltip reinforcement for low vision magnification users and other sighted users. Does aria-label work with other screen readers besides JAWS, NVDA, and VoiceOver? E.g. Window Eyes? Also aria-label will not work for Dragon Naturally Speaking, not sure it title attribute works well their either.
Theres no harm in using both aria-label and title, the UA/AT should only pick one as the accessible name.
Paul J. Adam
Accessibility Evangelist
www.deque.com
On Nov 6, 2013, at 10:22 AM, Gunderson, Jon R < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Holli,
>
> What legacy browser/screen reader combination was Deque concerned about not supporting aria-label?
>
> Jon
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Holli Smith
> Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 10:17 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Usage of title attribute or hidden label
>
> I believe the recommendation at the deque conference was to use both title attribute and an aria label to support the maximum combination of browsers and screenreaders On Nov 6, 2013 11:14 AM, "Gunderson, Jon R" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> Another option is to use the aria-label attribute:
>>
>> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/states_and_properties#aria-label
>>
>> It works just like the title attribute, but produces no tooltip.
>>
>> Example:
>>
>> <input type="text" name="firstname" size="15" aria-label="First Name">
>>
>> Jon
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto:
>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of jyothi gogireddy
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 7:23 AM
>> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> Subject: [WebAIM] Usage of title attribute or hidden label
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I have a scenario where I can't use visual text label does title
>> attribute to input field or a hidden label will be a better option to
>> implement as per accessibility guideline.
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Jyothi
>> Accessibility Consultant
>> >> >> list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> >> >> list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>
> > > > >
From: Gunderson, Jon R
Date: Wed, Nov 06 2013 10:33AM
Subject: Re: Usage of title attribute or hidden label
← Previous message | Next message →
Paul,
Thank you for your response.
If you use title attribute there is no reason to use aria-label, since the title attribute is part of the accessible name calculation for aria enabled technologies, and technologies that are not supporting aria would ignore the aria-label attribute anyway.
http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/roles#namecalculation
Some developers don't want the tooltip for various reasons, so aria-label attribute hopefully makes adding a label easier for them, or the tooltip (title attribute) content is really providing additional information beyond what the label is providing.
Jon
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Paul J. Adam
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 11:05 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Usage of title attribute or hidden label
Hey Jon, I recommend using both attributes if you want the visual tooltip reinforcement for low vision magnification users and other sighted users. Does aria-label work with other screen readers besides JAWS, NVDA, and VoiceOver? E.g. Window Eyes? Also aria-label will not work for Dragon Naturally Speaking, not sure it title attribute works well their either.
There's no harm in using both aria-label and title, the UA/AT should only pick one as the accessible name.
Paul J. Adam
Accessibility Evangelist
www.deque.com
On Nov 6, 2013, at 10:22 AM, Gunderson, Jon R < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Holli,
>
> What legacy browser/screen reader combination was Deque concerned about not supporting aria-label?
>
> Jon
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Holli Smith
> Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 10:17 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Usage of title attribute or hidden label
>
> I believe the recommendation at the deque conference was to use both title attribute and an aria label to support the maximum combination of browsers and screenreaders On Nov 6, 2013 11:14 AM, "Gunderson, Jon R" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> Another option is to use the aria-label attribute:
>>
>> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/states_and_properties#aria-label
>>
>> It works just like the title attribute, but produces no tooltip.
>>
>> Example:
>>
>> <input type="text" name="firstname" size="15" aria-label="First
>> Name">
>>
>> Jon
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto:
>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of jyothi gogireddy
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 7:23 AM
>> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> Subject: [WebAIM] Usage of title attribute or hidden label
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I have a scenario where I can't use visual text label does title
>> attribute to input field or a hidden label will be a better option to
>> implement as per accessibility guideline.
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Jyothi
>> Accessibility Consultant
>> >> >> list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> >> >> list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
From: Paul Adam
Date: Wed, Nov 06 2013 10:55AM
Subject: Re: Usage of title attribute or hidden label
← Previous message | Next message →
Also usually the title is treated as a hint or help text so it should
usually be different than the short, concise aria-label.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Nov 6, 2013, at 11:34 AM, "Gunderson, Jon R" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Paul,
>
> Thank you for your response.
>
> If you use title attribute there is no reason to use aria-label, since the title attribute is part of the accessible name calculation for aria enabled technologies, and technologies that are not supporting aria would ignore the aria-label attribute anyway.
>
> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/roles#namecalculation
>
> Some developers don't want the tooltip for various reasons, so aria-label attribute hopefully makes adding a label easier for them, or the tooltip (title attribute) content is really providing additional information beyond what the label is providing.
>
> Jon
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Paul J. Adam
> Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 11:05 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Usage of title attribute or hidden label
>
> Hey Jon, I recommend using both attributes if you want the visual tooltip reinforcement for low vision magnification users and other sighted users. Does aria-label work with other screen readers besides JAWS, NVDA, and VoiceOver? E.g. Window Eyes? Also aria-label will not work for Dragon Naturally Speaking, not sure it title attribute works well their either.
>
> There's no harm in using both aria-label and title, the UA/AT should only pick one as the accessible name.
>
> Paul J. Adam
> Accessibility Evangelist
> www.deque.com
>
>> On Nov 6, 2013, at 10:22 AM, Gunderson, Jon R < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>
>> Holli,
>>
>> What legacy browser/screen reader combination was Deque concerned about not supporting aria-label?
>>
>> Jon
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Holli Smith
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 10:17 AM
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Usage of title attribute or hidden label
>>
>> I believe the recommendation at the deque conference was to use both title attribute and an aria label to support the maximum combination of browsers and screenreaders On Nov 6, 2013 11:14 AM, "Gunderson, Jon R" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>
>>> Another option is to use the aria-label attribute:
>>>
>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/states_and_properties#aria-label
>>>
>>> It works just like the title attribute, but produces no tooltip.
>>>
>>> Example:
>>>
>>> <input type="text" name="firstname" size="15" aria-label="First
>>> Name">
>>>
>>> Jon
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto:
>>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of jyothi gogireddy
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 7:23 AM
>>> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>> Subject: [WebAIM] Usage of title attribute or hidden label
>>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I have a scenario where I can't use visual text label does title
>>> attribute to input field or a hidden label will be a better option to
>>> implement as per accessibility guideline.
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Jyothi
>>> Accessibility Consultant
>>> >>> >>> list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>> >>> >>> list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> >> >> list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> >> >> list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
> > > > >
From: Léonie Watson
Date: Wed, Nov 06 2013 1:53PM
Subject: Re: Usage of title attribute or hidden label
← Previous message | Next message →
Paul J Adam wrote:
"Im just trying to point out that all Accessibility experts, even those in
the same company have differing opinions/evidence for why to use or not use
the title attribute."
That's often the case, but unless I'm missing something (quite possible) the
advice in both these articles seems fairly consistent with regard to the
title attribute on form controls.
In providing an alternative to a hidden label (because of a Firefox CSS
bug), Gez's article says:
"We generally recommend the title attribute or the aria-label attribute if
there is no visible label at all (such as checkboxes arranged in grids that
make sense visually)."
In a list of exceptions where the title attribute is helpful, Steve's
article includes:
"Providing a programmatically associated label for a control in situations
where a visible text label would be redundant."
Léonie.
From: Paul J. Adam
Date: Wed, Nov 06 2013 2:00PM
Subject: Re: Usage of title attribute or hidden label
← Previous message | Next message →
I think Steves article is just a bit more anti title attribute.
E.g. the tl;dr says:
If you want to hide content from mobile and tablet users as well as assistive tech users and keyboard only users, use the title attribute.
So I dont want people to be scared away from the title attribute. Ive heard many times that the title attribute should NEVER be used so Im tying to dispel that myth a bit :)
On Nov 6, 2013, at 2:53 PM, Léonie Watson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Paul J Adam wrote:
> "Im just trying to point out that all Accessibility experts, even those in
> the same company have differing opinions/evidence for why to use or not use
> the title attribute."
>
> That's often the case, but unless I'm missing something (quite possible) the
> advice in both these articles seems fairly consistent with regard to the
> title attribute on form controls.
>
> In providing an alternative to a hidden label (because of a Firefox CSS
> bug), Gez's article says:
>
> "We generally recommend the title attribute or the aria-label attribute if
> there is no visible label at all (such as checkboxes arranged in grids that
> make sense visually)."
>
> In a list of exceptions where the title attribute is helpful, Steve's
> article includes:
>
> "Providing a programmatically associated label for a control in situations
> where a visible text label would be redundant."
>
> Léonie.
>
>
>
>
> > >
From: Steve Faulkner
Date: Thu, Nov 07 2013 12:11AM
Subject: Re: Usage of title attribute or hidden label
← Previous message | Next message →
There is no disagreement between Gez and I on when to use a title
attribute, as stated in my article (
http://blog.paciellogroup.com/2013/01/using-the-html-title-attribute-updated/
):
Examples of title attribute use that are USEFUL:
- Labelling frame or iframe elements:
- <frame *title="navigation"*>
- Providing a programmatically associated label for a control in
situations where a visible text label would be redundant:
- <input type="text" *title="search"*> <input type="submit"
value="search">
- labelling controls in data
tables<http://www.paciellogroup.com/presentations/techshare07/?slideSelect=0#slide28>;
.
--
Regards
SteveF
HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>;
On 6 November 2013 16:12, Paul J. Adam < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hey Jennifer, so thats one article from a TPG employee saying dont use
> the title attribute.
>
> Heres an article from another TPG employee saying DO use the title
> attribute ;) http://juicystudio.com/article/hidden-label-firefox-bug.php
>
> I also disagree that the title attribute is bad and posted that comment on
> Steves article you linked to.
>
> Paul J. Adam
> Accessibility Evangelist
> www.deque.com
>
> On Nov 6, 2013, at 10:07 AM, Jennifer Sutton < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > So, to those who are recommending the title attribute, I'm wondering
> > whether this article from the Paciello Group is relevant, so may be
> > worth considering. It's from January of this year:
> >
> http://blog.paciellogroup.com/2013/01/using-the-html-title-attribute-updated/
> >
> > At 07:05 AM 11/6/2013, Don Mauck wrote:
> >> I would think that the title attribute should work.
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: jyothi gogireddy [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> >> Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 6:23 AM
> >> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >> Subject: [WebAIM] Usage of title attribute or hidden label
> >>
> >> Hi All,
> >>
> >> I have a scenario where I can't use visual text label does title
> >> attribute to input field or a hidden label will be a better option
> >> to implement as per accessibility guideline.
> >>
> >> Thanks in advance.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Jyothi
> >> Accessibility Consultant
> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
From: Steve Faulkner
Date: Thu, Nov 07 2013 12:57AM
Subject: Re: Usage of title attribute or hidden label
← Previous message | Next message →
HI Holli, this is not good advice as the title attribute only maps to the
accessible name in accessibility APIs when there is no other source of an
accessible name [1], when there is it will be mapped to the accessible
description, so in this case
<input title="poot" type="text" aria-label="poot">
you end up with
accessible name from aria-label = poot
accessible description from title = poot
which can lead to duplicate announcement.
[1]
http://rawgithub.com/w3c/html-api-map/master/index.html#accessible-name-and-description-calculation
--
Regards
SteveF
HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>;
On 6 November 2013 16:16, Holli Smith < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> I believe the recommendation at the deque conference was to use both title
> attribute and an aria label to support the maximum combination of browsers
> and screenreaders
> On Nov 6, 2013 11:14 AM, "Gunderson, Jon R" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Another option is to use the aria-label attribute:
> >
> > http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/states_and_properties#aria-label
> >
> > It works just like the title attribute, but produces no tooltip.
> >
> > Example:
> >
> > <input type="text" name="firstname" size="15" aria-label="First Name">
> >
> > Jon
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto:
> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of jyothi gogireddy
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 7:23 AM
> > To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > Subject: [WebAIM] Usage of title attribute or hidden label
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I have a scenario where I can't use visual text label does title
> attribute
> > to input field or a hidden label will be a better option to implement as
> > per accessibility guideline.
> >
> > Thanks in advance.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Jyothi
> > Accessibility Consultant
> > > > > > messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > > > > > >
> > > >
From: Steve Faulkner
Date: Thu, Nov 07 2013 1:05AM
Subject: Re: Usage of title attribute or hidden label
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi Paul,
"Im just trying to point out that all Accessibility experts, even those in
the same company have differing opinions/evidence for why to use or not use
the title attribute."
While I don't claim to be an expert what I do claim is that when I publish
advice it is based on data and research of browser and AT implementations
of features and the standards defining the implementations of those
features.
--
Regards
SteveF
HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>;
On 6 November 2013 17:01, Paul J. Adam < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hey Jennifer, no Im not aiming for a personal debate. Im just trying to
> point out that all Accessibility experts, even those in the same company
> have differing opinions/evidence for why to use or not use the title
> attribute.
>
> Im always open for a good Accessibility debate however :)
>
> On Nov 6, 2013, at 10:27 AM, Jennifer Sutton < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Paul, et al:
> >
> > Paul, thanks for your post. Now, it seems to me, the original
> > poster has a range of articles and opinions upon which to base this
> decision.
> >
> > I was simply seeking to present a wider perspective; your response
> > feels like you're aiming for more of a personal debate than I am.
> >
> > Jennifer
> >
> >
> > At 08:12 AM 11/6/2013, Paul J. Adam wrote:
> >> Hey Jennifer, so that's one article from a TPG employee saying don't
> >> use the title attribute.
> >>
> >> Here's an article from another TPG employee saying DO use the title
> >> attribute ;)
> http://juicystudio.com/article/hidden-label-firefox-bug.php
> >>
> >> I also disagree that the title attribute is bad and posted that
> >> comment on Steve's article you linked to.
> >>
> >> Paul J. Adam
> >> Accessibility Evangelist
> >> www.deque.com
> >>
> >> On Nov 6, 2013, at 10:07 AM, Jennifer Sutton < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> So, to those who are recommending the title attribute, I'm wondering
> >>> whether this article from the Paciello Group is relevant, so may be
> >>> worth considering. It's from January of this year:
> >>>
> >>
> http://blog.paciellogroup.com/2013/01/using-the-html-title-attribute-updated/
> >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
From: Alastair Campbell
Date: Thu, Nov 07 2013 3:43AM
Subject: Re: Usage of title attribute or hidden label
← Previous message | Next message →
Steve Faulkner wrote:
> While I don't claim to be an expert what I do claim is that when I publish
> advice it is based on data and research of browser and AT implementations
> of features and the standards defining the implementations of those
> features.
Knowing the research on a topic is always the best start for expert-hood,
you might not claim it, but I would on your behalf ;-)
So overall it looks like there are a couple of options for hidden labels
then:
1. Having a label and hiding it off-screen, but avoiding the Firefox bug.
This isn't a good option if you need to cater for right-to-left languages
or notice performance issues on mobile devices.
2. Using title on the input.
I think we've generally done the first and not triggered the bug because we
use overflow, we just moved it way off screen. We haven't had to cater for
RTL languages though, or use it enough per page to trigger performance
issues.
Perhaps in future when we can rely on user agents understanding aria-label,
and then use title for explanatory text? e.g. <input type="text"
aria-label="First name" title="Required">
Cheers,
-Alastair
From: Sailesh Panchang
Date: Thu, Nov 07 2013 7:35AM
Subject: Re: Usage of title attribute or hidden label
← Previous message | Next message →
One might wish to also review this write-up:
http://www.deque.com/techniques-labeling-standard-html-form-controls
Regards,
Sailesh Panchang
On 11/7/13, Alastair Campbell < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Steve Faulkner wrote:
>
>> While I don't claim to be an expert what I do claim is that when I
>> publish
>> advice it is based on data and research of browser and AT implementations
>> of features and the standards defining the implementations of those
>> features.
>
>
> Knowing the research on a topic is always the best start for expert-hood,
> you might not claim it, but I would on your behalf ;-)
>
> So overall it looks like there are a couple of options for hidden labels
> then:
>
> 1. Having a label and hiding it off-screen, but avoiding the Firefox bug.
> This isn't a good option if you need to cater for right-to-left languages
> or notice performance issues on mobile devices.
>
> 2. Using title on the input.
>
> I think we've generally done the first and not triggered the bug because we
> use overflow, we just moved it way off screen. We haven't had to cater for
> RTL languages though, or use it enough per page to trigger performance
> issues.
>
> Perhaps in future when we can rely on user agents understanding aria-label,
> and then use title for explanatory text? e.g. <input type="text"
> aria-label="First name" title="Required">
>
> Cheers,
>
> -Alastair
> > > >
From: Paul J. Adam
Date: Thu, Nov 07 2013 8:01AM
Subject: Re: Usage of title attribute or hidden label
← Previous message | Next message →
Hey Steve, sorry I made the wrong assumption about yours and Gezs opinions on the title attribute. I did want to link to his articled because it shows how much easier and less buggy it is to use a title attribute or aria-label as the accessible name. Im not really seeing the benefit of visually hidden explicit labels any longer.
Good point that the title will turn into the accessible description if used with an aria-label. So it makes more sense to not duplicate the title and aria-label values but instead make the aria-label short and concise since its the name and make the title more like a hint or help text that is a bit longer and explains what the control does.
Another way Ive used the title attribute recently, not related to form inputs, is to handle the fact that iOS does not read aria-expanded.
So for a UI control that expands and collapses a section the code is something like:
<a href=# aria-expanded=false title=Expands the section>Blah</a>
&
<a href=# aria-expanded=true title=Collapses the section>Blah</a>
This way most ARIA enabled screen readers will speak Collapsed or Expanded, all will speak the title, iOS will only speak the title not the expanded attribute.
Something to think about.
Thanks!
Paul J. Adam
Accessibility Evangelist
www.deque.com
On Nov 7, 2013, at 1:11 AM, Steve Faulkner < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> There is no disagreement between Gez and I on when to use a title
> attribute, as stated in my article (
> http://blog.paciellogroup.com/2013/01/using-the-html-title-attribute-updated/
> ):
>
> Examples of title attribute use that are USEFUL:
>
> - Labelling frame or iframe elements:
> - <frame *title="navigation"*>
> - Providing a programmatically associated label for a control in
> situations where a visible text label would be redundant:
> - <input type="text" *title="search"*> <input type="submit"
> value="search">
> - labelling controls in data
> tables<http://www.paciellogroup.com/presentations/techshare07/?slideSelect=0#slide28>;
> .
>
>
>
> --
>
> Regards
>
> SteveF
> HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>;
>
>
> On 6 November 2013 16:12, Paul J. Adam < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> Hey Jennifer, so thats one article from a TPG employee saying dont use
>> the title attribute.
>>
>> Heres an article from another TPG employee saying DO use the title
>> attribute ;) http://juicystudio.com/article/hidden-label-firefox-bug.php
>>
>> I also disagree that the title attribute is bad and posted that comment on
>> Steves article you linked to.
>>
>> Paul J. Adam
>> Accessibility Evangelist
>> www.deque.com
>>
>> On Nov 6, 2013, at 10:07 AM, Jennifer Sutton < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>
>>> So, to those who are recommending the title attribute, I'm wondering
>>> whether this article from the Paciello Group is relevant, so may be
>>> worth considering. It's from January of this year:
>>>
>> http://blog.paciellogroup.com/2013/01/using-the-html-title-attribute-updated/
>>>
>>> At 07:05 AM 11/6/2013, Don Mauck wrote:
>>>> I would think that the title attribute should work.
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: jyothi gogireddy [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 6:23 AM
>>>> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>> Subject: [WebAIM] Usage of title attribute or hidden label
>>>>
>>>> Hi All,
>>>>
>>>> I have a scenario where I can't use visual text label does title
>>>> attribute to input field or a hidden label will be a better option
>>>> to implement as per accessibility guideline.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Jyothi
>>>> Accessibility Consultant
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>
>>> >>> >>> >>
>> >> >> >>
> > >
From: jyothi gogireddy
Date: Thu, Nov 07 2013 10:01AM
Subject: Re: Usage of title attribute or hidden label
← Previous message | No next message
Hi All,
Thanks for everybody's views and appreciate the time spent to provide me a solution. Working on to implement the suitable solution for my scenario and will post as soon i succeed.
Thanks,
Jyothi
Accessibility Consultant
On Wednesday, 6 November 2013 9:43 PM, "Gunderson, Jon R" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
Another option is to use the aria-label attribute:
http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/states_and_properties#aria-label
It works just like the title attribute, but produces no tooltip.
Example:
<input type="text" name="firstname" size="15" aria-label="First Name">
Jon
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of jyothi gogireddy
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 7:23 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Usage of title attribute or hidden label
Hi All,
I have a scenario where I can't use visual text label does title attribute to input field or a hidden label will be a better option to implement as per accessibility guideline.
Thanks in advance.
Regards,
Jyothi
Accessibility Consultant