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Thread: Titles for iframes
Number of posts in this thread: 16 (In chronological order)
From: Dona Patrick
Date: Tue, Feb 10 2015 9:37AM
Subject: Titles for iframes
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I know that frames on Web pages must be titled to be accessible but I
thought that inline frames did not need to be. The titles can't hurt, I am
sure, but from what I have read they are unnecessary.
Dona
From: Paul J. Adam
Date: Tue, Feb 10 2015 10:00AM
Subject: Re: Titles for iframes
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All iframes need a title to serve as the accessible name otherwise they say "frame, frame, frame, etc." with no useful name as to what the frames are.
Paul J. Adam
Accessibility Evangelist
www.deque.com <http://www.deque.com/>;
> On Feb 10, 2015, at 10:37 AM, Dona Patrick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> I know that frames on Web pages must be titled to be accessible but I
> thought that inline frames did not need to be. The titles can't hurt, I am
> sure, but from what I have read they are unnecessary.
>
> Dona
> > >
From: Dona Patrick
Date: Tue, Feb 10 2015 10:18AM
Subject: Re: Titles for iframes
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Thanks Paul. I was going on something I read on the WebAim site but will
now make sure to flag iframes with no titles on my audits.
Dona
On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 12:00 PM, Paul J. Adam < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> All iframes need a title to serve as the accessible name otherwise they
> say "frame, frame, frame, etc." with no useful name as to what the frames
> are.
>
>
> Paul J. Adam
> Accessibility Evangelist
> www.deque.com <http://www.deque.com/>;
> > On Feb 10, 2015, at 10:37 AM, Dona Patrick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> > I know that frames on Web pages must be titled to be accessible but I
> > thought that inline frames did not need to be. The titles can't hurt, I
> am
> > sure, but from what I have read they are unnecessary.
> >
> > Dona
> > > > > > >
> > > >
From: Paul J. Adam
Date: Tue, Feb 10 2015 10:26AM
Subject: Re: Titles for iframes
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Sometimes they'll also read the name attribute of the frame which is often useless like this LinkedIn widget I put on my website which reads as "li_gen_1423588939286_0 frame" to VoiceOver for OS X.
This is the beginning of the code it finds that from.
<iframe id="li_gen_1423588939286_0" name="li_gen_1423588939286_0"
I can't actually fix this problem with JS it seems because it's an iframe within an iframe that's an https:// iframe so I can't access it to modify the attributes with JavaScript :(
Paul J. Adam
Accessibility Evangelist
www.deque.com <http://www.deque.com/>;
> On Feb 10, 2015, at 11:18 AM, Dona Patrick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Thanks Paul. I was going on something I read on the WebAim site but will
> now make sure to flag iframes with no titles on my audits.
>
> Dona
>
> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 12:00 PM, Paul J. Adam < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> All iframes need a title to serve as the accessible name otherwise they
>> say "frame, frame, frame, etc." with no useful name as to what the frames
>> are.
>>
>>
>> Paul J. Adam
>> Accessibility Evangelist
>> www.deque.com <http://www.deque.com/>;
>>> On Feb 10, 2015, at 10:37 AM, Dona Patrick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>>
>>> I know that frames on Web pages must be titled to be accessible but I
>>> thought that inline frames did not need to be. The titles can't hurt, I
>> am
>>> sure, but from what I have read they are unnecessary.
>>>
>>> Dona
>>> >>> >>> >>
>> >> >> >>
> > >
From: Jared Smith
Date: Tue, Feb 10 2015 10:41AM
Subject: Re: Titles for iframes
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The purpose of the frame title is to convey the content or function of
the frame as would be available to sighted users. It is required in
WCAG under the alternative text for non-text elements success criteria
- the idea being that the iframe is a non-text element.
If the iframe has distinct content or a function, it should be
conveyed via title. Examples might be that the iframe is an
advertisement or the title of the movie for an embedded video player
or, as in Paul's case, that it's a LinkedIn widget.
However, sometimes iframes don't have a distinct visual purpose or
function. Sometimes the fact an iframe is used in the markup is
entirely transparent to sighted users. In these cases, adding a title
to the iframe should not be required. Certainly WCAG doesn't require
adding alternative text for something that is not a non-text element.
Doing so would provide unnecessary and extraneous information just for
screen reader users.
Unfortunately, as Paul has described, many screen readers read extra
stuff for iframes that do not have titles. This behavior is (I
believe) incorrect, but is the reality. As such, a very concise
descriptor of the iframe is likely the best alternative.
Jared
From: Sailesh Panchang
Date: Tue, Feb 10 2015 10:45AM
Subject: Re: Titles for iframes
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Surely iframe with no meaningful value for the title attribute should
be flagged. But make sure the iframes are actually rendered in the
browser. Else the finding will be dismissed as a false positive.
An enhancement to JAWS a couple of versions ago helped users: JAWS can
skip empty iframes / frames. But not all SRs do this.
Regards,
Sailesh
On 2/10/15, Paul J. Adam < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Sometimes they'll also read the name attribute of the frame which is often
> useless like this LinkedIn widget I put on my website which reads as
> "li_gen_1423588939286_0 frame" to VoiceOver for OS X.
>
> This is the beginning of the code it finds that from.
>
> <iframe id="li_gen_1423588939286_0" name="li_gen_1423588939286_0"
>
> I can't actually fix this problem with JS it seems because it's an iframe
> within an iframe that's an https:// iframe so I can't access it to modify
> the attributes with JavaScript :(
>
> Paul J. Adam
> Accessibility Evangelist
> www.deque.com <http://www.deque.com/>;
>> On Feb 10, 2015, at 11:18 AM, Dona Patrick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Paul. I was going on something I read on the WebAim site but will
>> now make sure to flag iframes with no titles on my audits.
>>
>> Dona
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 12:00 PM, Paul J. Adam < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> All iframes need a title to serve as the accessible name otherwise they
>>> say "frame, frame, frame, etc." with no useful name as to what the
>>> frames
>>> are.
>>>
>>>
>>> Paul J. Adam
>>> Accessibility Evangelist
>>> www.deque.com <http://www.deque.com/>;
>>>> On Feb 10, 2015, at 10:37 AM, Dona Patrick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I know that frames on Web pages must be titled to be accessible but I
>>>> thought that inline frames did not need to be. The titles can't hurt, I
>>> am
>>>> sure, but from what I have read they are unnecessary.
>>>>
>>>> Dona
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>
>>> >>> >>> >>>
>> >> >> >
> > > >
From: Dona Patrick
Date: Tue, Feb 10 2015 10:58AM
Subject: Re: Titles for iframes
← Previous message | Next message →
Okay, thanks Jared. I misunderstood the bit about iframes and titles on
your site. Our iframes are usually embedded videos so they should have
titles. Glad to know this.
Love this list.
Dona
On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 12:45 PM, Sailesh Panchang <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Surely iframe with no meaningful value for the title attribute should
> be flagged. But make sure the iframes are actually rendered in the
> browser. Else the finding will be dismissed as a false positive.
> An enhancement to JAWS a couple of versions ago helped users: JAWS can
> skip empty iframes / frames. But not all SRs do this.
> Regards,
> Sailesh
> On 2/10/15, Paul J. Adam < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > Sometimes they'll also read the name attribute of the frame which is
> often
> > useless like this LinkedIn widget I put on my website which reads as
> > "li_gen_1423588939286_0 frame" to VoiceOver for OS X.
> >
> > This is the beginning of the code it finds that from.
> >
> > <iframe id="li_gen_1423588939286_0" name="li_gen_1423588939286_0"
> >
> > I can't actually fix this problem with JS it seems because it's an iframe
> > within an iframe that's an https:// iframe so I can't access it to
> modify
> > the attributes with JavaScript :(
> >
> > Paul J. Adam
> > Accessibility Evangelist
> > www.deque.com <http://www.deque.com/>;
> >> On Feb 10, 2015, at 11:18 AM, Dona Patrick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >>
> >> Thanks Paul. I was going on something I read on the WebAim site but will
> >> now make sure to flag iframes with no titles on my audits.
> >>
> >> Dona
> >>
> >> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 12:00 PM, Paul J. Adam < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> All iframes need a title to serve as the accessible name otherwise they
> >>> say "frame, frame, frame, etc." with no useful name as to what the
> >>> frames
> >>> are.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Paul J. Adam
> >>> Accessibility Evangelist
> >>> www.deque.com <http://www.deque.com/>;
> >>>> On Feb 10, 2015, at 10:37 AM, Dona Patrick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I know that frames on Web pages must be titled to be accessible but I
> >>>> thought that inline frames did not need to be. The titles can't hurt,
> I
> >>> am
> >>>> sure, but from what I have read they are unnecessary.
> >>>>
> >>>> Dona
> >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>
> >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>
> >> > >> > >> > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > >
From: Steve Faulkner
Date: Tue, Feb 10 2015 11:42AM
Subject: Re: Titles for iframes
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On 10 February 2015 at 17:41, Jared Smith < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Unfortunately, as Paul has described, many screen readers read extra
> stuff for iframes that do not have titles. This behavior is (I
> believe) incorrect, but is the reality. As such, a very concise
> descriptor of the iframe is likely the best alternative.
>
I this case role="presentation" could be used to remove the semantics of
the frame, need to check AT support.
I wrote an article about hidden iframes that may be helpful
http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2010/04/making-sure-hidden-frames-are-hidden/
though probably needs an update :-)
--
Regards
SteveF
HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>;
From: Jared Smith
Date: Tue, Feb 10 2015 12:59PM
Subject: Re: Titles for iframes
← Previous message | Next message →
Steve Faulkner wrote:
> I this case role="presentation" could be used to remove the semantics of
> the frame, need to check AT support.
Not surprisingly, this does nothing in VoiceOver. VoiceOver reads the
iframe's name attribute value, if present, otherwise it reads "Frame
0" for each untitled iframe.
> I wrote an article about hidden iframes that may be helpful
> http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2010/04/making-sure-hidden-frames-are-hidden/
> though probably needs an update :-)
Of note is that this is only relevant for hiding the iframe content,
not for hiding the iframe name or other stuff being read if a title is
not present.
Jared
From: Brooks Newton
Date: Wed, Feb 11 2015 12:07PM
Subject: Re: Titles for iframes
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Hi All,
For iframes with content that isn't intended for consumption by any user, such as iframes that hold third-party tracking tags, how about using the HTML5 hidden attribute and / or the CSS display:none declaration? Doesn't using aria-hidden="true" on the iframe element also make sense in this case? Seems to me that the semantic relevance of setting role="presentation" belies the page author's intended purpose - especially when you consider the specific context of the tracking tag iframe example I brought up... which is that no page user is supposed to know the hidden iframe content exists on the page. What are others thoughts?
Credit to one of Steve's past posts for discussing the use of the three aforementioned techniques for hiding content from AT users
- http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2012/05/html5-accessibility-chops-hidden-and-aria-hidden/
Brooks Newton
From: Paul Bohman
Date: Wed, Feb 11 2015 4:53PM
Subject: Re: Titles for iframes
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One thing also worth noting: JAWS does not read the iframe's title
attribute at all. Instead, it reads the <title> element of the included
page. That's not what screen readers are "supposed to" do, but that's what
JAWS does, and it sort of makes sense, but the problem with that approach
is that you have no control over the iframe title when you're including
third party content.
Paul Bohman, PhD
Director of Training
Deque Systems, Inc
www.deque.com
703-225-0380, ext.121
On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 2:07 PM, Brooks Newton < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> For iframes with content that isn't intended for consumption by any user,
> such as iframes that hold third-party tracking tags, how about using the
> HTML5 hidden attribute and / or the CSS display:none declaration? Doesn't
> using aria-hidden="true" on the iframe element also make sense in this
> case? Seems to me that the semantic relevance of setting
> role="presentation" belies the page author's intended purpose - especially
> when you consider the specific context of the tracking tag iframe example I
> brought up... which is that no page user is supposed to know the hidden
> iframe content exists on the page. What are others thoughts?
>
> Credit to one of Steve's past posts for discussing the use of the three
> aforementioned techniques for hiding content from AT users
> -
> http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2012/05/html5-accessibility-chops-hidden-and-aria-hidden/
>
> Brooks Newton
>
>
From: Sailesh Panchang
Date: Wed, Feb 18 2015 10:33AM
Subject: Re: Titles for iframes
← Previous message | Next message →
While looking at an example of no-CAPTCHA on
https://wordpress.org/support/register.php
I noticed JAWS does read the title for the iframe (recaptcha) both In
FF and IE.
NVDA also reads this title.
In addition, JAWS detects the title as part of advanced element info
for the Twitter and FB iframes as well and reads them:
title=Twitter Follow Button
title=Facebook
Sailesh
On 2/11/15, Paul Bohman < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> One thing also worth noting: JAWS does not read the iframe's title
> attribute at all. Instead, it reads the <title> element of the included
> page. That's not what screen readers are "supposed to" do, but that's what
> JAWS does, and it sort of makes sense, but the problem with that approach
> is that you have no control over the iframe title when you're including
> third party content.
>
>
> Paul Bohman, PhD
> Director of Training
> Deque Systems, Inc
> www.deque.com
> 703-225-0380, ext.121
>
> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 2:07 PM, Brooks Newton < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> For iframes with content that isn't intended for consumption by any user,
>> such as iframes that hold third-party tracking tags, how about using the
>> HTML5 hidden attribute and / or the CSS display:none declaration?
>> Doesn't
>> using aria-hidden="true" on the iframe element also make sense in this
>> case? Seems to me that the semantic relevance of setting
>> role="presentation" belies the page author's intended purpose -
>> especially
>> when you consider the specific context of the tracking tag iframe example
>> I
>> brought up... which is that no page user is supposed to know the hidden
>> iframe content exists on the page. What are others thoughts?
>>
>> Credit to one of Steve's past posts for discussing the use of the three
>> aforementioned techniques for hiding content from AT users
>> -
>> http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2012/05/html5-accessibility-chops-hidden-and-aria-hidden/
>>
>> Brooks Newton
>>
>>
From: Lynn Holdsworth
Date: Wed, Feb 18 2015 2:50PM
Subject: Re: Titles for iframes
← Previous message | Next message →
If a non-functional iFrame were given a role of "presentation" would that hide its existence from screenreaders?
> On 10 Feb 2015, at 17:41, Jared Smith < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> The purpose of the frame title is to convey the content or function of
> the frame as would be available to sighted users. It is required in
> WCAG under the alternative text for non-text elements success criteria
> - the idea being that the iframe is a non-text element.
>
> If the iframe has distinct content or a function, it should be
> conveyed via title. Examples might be that the iframe is an
> advertisement or the title of the movie for an embedded video player
> or, as in Paul's case, that it's a LinkedIn widget.
>
> However, sometimes iframes don't have a distinct visual purpose or
> function. Sometimes the fact an iframe is used in the markup is
> entirely transparent to sighted users. In these cases, adding a title
> to the iframe should not be required. Certainly WCAG doesn't require
> adding alternative text for something that is not a non-text element.
> Doing so would provide unnecessary and extraneous information just for
> screen reader users.
>
> Unfortunately, as Paul has described, many screen readers read extra
> stuff for iframes that do not have titles. This behavior is (I
> believe) incorrect, but is the reality. As such, a very concise
> descriptor of the iframe is likely the best alternative.
>
> Jared
> > >
From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Thu, Feb 19 2015 9:11AM
Subject: Re: Titles for iframes
← Previous message | Next message →
> If a non-functional iFrame were given a role of "presentation" would that hide its existence from screenreaders?
The role of presentation is meant to hide the semantics of the element and any required descendant elements not hide the contents of the frame. So, while this might work for frames with no visible content aria-hidden might be a more appropriate attribute. Also iframes may be placed in the focus order by the browser so non-interactive frames may use tabindex=-1. However, be careful about applying tabindex=-1 to frames -- when a frame does contain interactive content applying this will prevent keyboard access into the interactive controls within the frame.
Jonathan
--
Jonathan Avila
Chief Accessibility Officer
SSB BART Group
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Phone 703.637.8957
Follow us: Facebook | Twitter | LinkedIn | Blog | Newsletter
From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Thu, Feb 19 2015 11:57AM
Subject: Re: Titles for iframes
← Previous message | Next message →
> I noticed JAWS does read the title for the iframe (recaptcha) both In FF and IE.
In my experience JAWS 16 will read the frame document's title element in IE if it exists. If it does not exist it will use the title attribute on the iFrame. In Firefox it will use the title attribute of the iFrame. This behavior has been like this for several versions.
Jonathan
--
Jonathan Avila
Chief Accessibility Officer
SSB BART Group
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Phone 703.637.8957
Follow us: Facebook | Twitter | LinkedIn | Blog | Newsletter
From: Sailesh Panchang
Date: Thu, Feb 19 2015 1:35PM
Subject: Re: Titles for iframes
← Previous message | No next message
Jon,
Sure that has been the behavior for several versions. My statement
was a response to the prior email that seemed to suggest otherwise.
Sailesh
On 2/19/15, Jonathan Avila < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> I noticed JAWS does read the title for the iframe (recaptcha) both In FF
>> and IE.
>
> In my experience JAWS 16 will read the frame document's title element in IE
> if it exists. If it does not exist it will use the title attribute on the
> iFrame. In Firefox it will use the title attribute of the iFrame. This
> behavior has been like this for several versions.
>
> Jonathan
>
> --
> Jonathan Avila
> Chief Accessibility Officer
> SSB BART Group
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Phone 703.637.8957
> Follow us: Facebook | Twitter | LinkedIn | Blog | Newsletter
>
>
>