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Thread: Office 365 for authoring accessible documents
Number of posts in this thread: 21 (In chronological order)
From: Whitney Quesenbery
Date: Tue, Nov 03 2015 10:39PM
Subject: Office 365 for authoring accessible documents
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Does anyone have any experience with how well Office 365 supports creating
accessible Word and PPT files and whether it makes a difference what
platform you are on?
I've looked at the Accessible Digital Office Documents project -
http://adod.idrc.ocad.ca/ - didn't see Office 365 listed (or what seems be
called Office 2016 Mac)
From: rjaquiss
Date: Tue, Nov 03 2015 11:32PM
Subject: Re: Office 365 for authoring accessible documents
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Hello:
I have used both Office 2013 and Office 365. The Word and Excel files work just fine. I don't use PowerPoint. For Office 365, you have a choice of installing the applications on a PC or using them in the Cloud. I had no trouble making accessible documents with the Office 365 application installed on a PC. One problem I have had with both Office 2013 and Office 365 is that JAWS tends to crash when I exit Word. It's a long story, but I had to replace my Office software on my PC. I opted to purchase Office 2010 Professional. The price was right at $89.99 and it has proven much more stable. I briefly tried Office 2016. I didn't find it as usable especially Outlook. I think FS may need to update the JAWS scripts. Hope this helps.
Regards,
Robert
From: Karlen Communications
Date: Wed, Nov 04 2015 3:27AM
Subject: Re: Office 365 for authoring accessible documents
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I just installed both Office 2016 for the Mac and Office 2016 for Windows on my Mac and Windows 10 computers respectively. The desktop applications are more robust in features than the web apps or tablet versions.
I know that Microsoft is moving toward a uniform interface between their Windows and Mac versions of Office so 2016 for Mac has more features to make documents accessible and I'll be trying those out over the next few months to see what the improvements are Office 2016 for Mac now has Ribbons..
Here are some of the resources for using Office 2016 for Mac in terms of general accessibility:
Accessibility in PowerPoint 2016 for Mac: https://support.office.com/en-ca/article/Accessibility-in-PowerPoint-2016-for-Mac-fdff2074-bbd9-4c7a-8f55-d2885d58c0da?ui=en-US&rs=en-CA&adÊ&fromAR=1
Accessibility in Excel 2016 for Mac: https://support.office.com/en-ca/article/Accessibility-in-Excel-2016-for-Mac-1d014a46-3416-413d-909d-51c817e83580
Accessibility in Word 2016 for Mac: https://support.office.com/en-ca/article/Accessibility-in-Word-2016-for-Mac-f8d605c2-24e9-44b7-9cf6-4b226e6172d0
Access World - a First look at Office 2016 accessibility: http://www.afb.org/afbpress/pub.asp?DocID=aw160902
So far in editing and writing documents using JAWS 16 and 17 on my Win 10 desktop I don't notice much difference. There are the usual JAWS bugs/features but aside from that, there is no difference between Office 2013 or 2016. I suspect that the biggest difference I'll see is in being able to add more accessibility in the Mac versions although I Haven't delved into those desktop applications yet.
In purchasing Office 365 you also have access to the "advanced editing tools" on an iOS device which should give you some tools related to accessible document editing. Not sure about things like adding Alt text but this is something else to add to my list of "things to do." LOL
Cheers, Karen
Microsoft MVP for Word
Microsoft Accessibility MVP
From: Joseph Sherman
Date: Wed, Nov 04 2015 8:03AM
Subject: Re: Office 365 for authoring accessible documents
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I'd be interested in knowing if Office 2016 for Mac can finally create tagged pdf files?
Joseph Sherman
From: Moore,Michael (Accessibility) (HHSC)
Date: Wed, Nov 04 2015 8:13AM
Subject: Re: Office 365 for authoring accessible documents
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You really need a more robust tool than MS office to create accessible PDFs reliably. Tables will only have column headers, the tag order may be incorrect if either the images are floated or if the file is docx file type. MS office does not have a tool that you can use to inspect and repair the PDF document as needed.
If you cannot afford a robust PDF tool, I recommend publishing the content as HTML. There are a large number of free text and html editors available. You can publish the PDF content along-side of the HTML content.
Mike Moore
Accessibility Coordinator
Texas Health and Human Services Commission
Civil Rights Office
(512) 438-3431 (Office)
From: Karlen Communications
Date: Wed, Nov 04 2015 8:29AM
Subject: Re: Office 365 for authoring accessible documents
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But the PDF still has to be accessible.
Cheers, Karen
From: Karlen Communications
Date: Wed, Nov 04 2015 8:29AM
Subject: Re: Office 365 for authoring accessible documents
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Will let you know.
Cheers, Karen
From: Joseph Sherman
Date: Wed, Nov 04 2015 8:30AM
Subject: Re: Office 365 for authoring accessible documents
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Of course; I assume everybody knows that.
Joseph Sherman
From: Olaf Drümmer
Date: Wed, Nov 04 2015 10:15AM
Subject: Re: Office 365 for authoring accessible documents
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> On 04.11.2015, at 16:13, Moore,Michael (Accessibility) (HHSC) < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> [...] I recommend publishing the content as HTML. There are a large number of free text and html editors available […]
I'd be interested to learn about HTML editors that are usable and tend to produce accessible HTML.
I have tried
- SeaMonkey: horrible user experience
- TypeMetal on Mac: much better user experience than SeaMonkey, but still a pain to use for all the documents I deal with.
- Dreamweaver and similar tools: from my POV not intended/suitable for everyday documents 9rather tools for designers, website creators etc.)
What else should I look at? Who is writing their memos, product infos, white papers, in HTML, rather than Word, and can recommend a tool that one could use like one uses Word?
Olaf
From: Duff Johnson
Date: Wed, Nov 04 2015 10:32AM
Subject: Re: Office 365 for authoring accessible documents
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> You really need a more robust tool than MS office to create accessible PDFs reliably.
Today - yes. But tomorrow is up to you.
Microsoft can decide, at any time, to resolve each of these issues in Word, and provide software that makes fully accessible PDF documents and deserves a PDF/UA conformance claim (and WCAG 2.0 conformance claim, for that matter) without *any* additional tweaking.
> Tables will only have column headers, the tag order may be incorrect if either the images are floated or if the file is docx file type. MS office does not have a tool that you can use to inspect and repair the PDF document as needed.
Today - yes. But these things shouldn't have to be fixed in the PDF at all. The DOCX format, so far as I am aware, allows for table row-headers, and to fix the logical ordering of floating objects, etc. Microsoft just hasn't gotten around to supporting these features yet.
It's just software; it can be improved.
> If you cannot afford a robust PDF tool, I recommend publishing the content as HTML. There are a large number of free text and html editors available. You can publish the PDF content along-side of the HTML content.
If HTML is appropriate, use HTML. If PDF (a fixed rendering) is appropriate, then you can solve your problem (over time) by asking Microsoft to improve their product in specific ways to address your needs.
Duff.
From: Chaals McCathie Nevile
Date: Wed, Nov 04 2015 11:02AM
Subject: Re: Office 365 for authoring accessible documents
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On Wed, 04 Nov 2015 18:15:04 +0100, Olaf Drümmer < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:
>> On 04.11.2015, at 16:13, Moore,Michael (Accessibility) (HHSC)
>> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>
>> [...] I recommend publishing the content as HTML. There are a large
>> number of free text and html editors available […]
>
> I'd be interested to learn about HTML editors that are usable and tend
> to produce accessible HTML.
>
> I have tried
> - SeaMonkey: horrible user experience
> - TypeMetal on Mac: much better user experience than SeaMonkey, but
> still a pain to use for all the documents I deal with.
> - Dreamweaver and similar tools: from my POV not intended/suitable for
> everyday documents 9rather tools for designers, website creators etc.)
>
> What else should I look at? Who is writing their memos, product infos,
> white papers, in HTML, rather than Word, and can recommend a tool that
> one could use like one uses Word?
Me. I use BlueGriffon, which is generally pretty good for editing and
gives me good control over the HTML it creates which is generally
semantically clean and lovely (except if I paste stuff, then it gives me a
rich Mac paste with a monstruous pile of span-style, but that's a Mac
"feature" I believe).
I don't think it has been updated for a while and wonder if it is still in
development.
cheers
--
Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = - - - Find more at http://yandex.com
From: Markus Erle
Date: Thu, Nov 05 2015 6:40AM
Subject: Re: Office 365 for authoring accessible documents
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Dear collegues,
in the field of accessible PDF authoring with Word (2010 and above) all mentioned issues are solved by using the add-in axesPDF for Word (for example table headers, floating images). You can prepare all accessibility requirements in Word. No re-working of the PDF is necessary.
We are the developer of that tool. Since that summer the final version is released.
It is developed to solve all the Word-to-PDF/UA issues - at least for all using Word on Windows.
Maybe it is worth for checking it out: https://www.axes4.com/axespdf-for-word-overview.html
I am really thrilled to hear some feedback from you.
Sorry for that shameless tip.
Best wishes
Markus
--
Markus Erle
Phone: +49 70 71 5 49 89 24
Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
axes4 GmbH
Frauentalweg 117
CH-8045 Zurich
Twitter: @axespdf
Blog: blog.axespdf.com
Web: www.axes4.com
From: Karlen Communications
Date: Thu, Nov 05 2015 8:18AM
Subject: Re: Office 365 for authoring accessible documents
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Is this the new Accessibil-IT tool? The spelling seems the same?
Cheers, Karen
From: Markus Erle
Date: Thu, Nov 05 2015 9:10AM
Subject: Re: Office 365 for authoring accessible documents
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axes4 is developer and publisher of all axesPDF software.
Of course we are talking to partners to distribute our products.
Best wishes
Markus
--
Markus Erle
Telefon: +49 70 71 5 49 89 24
E-Mail: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
axes4 GmbH
Frauentalweg 117
CH-8045 Zürich
Twitter: @axespdf
Blog: blog.axespdf.com
Web: www.axes4.com
> Am 05.11.2015 um 16:18 schrieb Karlen Communications < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:
>
> Is this the new Accessibil-IT tool? The spelling seems the same?
>
> Cheers, Karen
>
>
>
>
From: Karlen Communications
Date: Thu, Nov 05 2015 9:41AM
Subject: Re: Office 365 for authoring accessible documents
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OK, thanks.
From: Minnery, Bob (EDU)
Date: Thu, Nov 05 2015 12:34PM
Subject: Re: Office 365 for authoring accessible documents
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Hi Markus
A webinar demonstration may be useful
Go Bold'n
bob Minnery
Manager
Alternative Educational Resources Ontario
W. Ross Macdonald School for the Visually Impaired and Deafblind
350 Brant Ave. Brantford On.,
N3T 3J9
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://alternativeresources.ca
1-519-759-2522 ext.288
519-865-2772
From: John E Brandt
Date: Thu, Nov 05 2015 3:16PM
Subject: Re: Office 365 for authoring accessible documents
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My test - for what it's worth:
If you are in a hurry, jump to the Summary/Conclusions.
Method
Using Office 365, I have installed MS Office for Mac 2016 on a brand new MacBook Pro (running El Capitan) and MS Office 2016 on an older HP Pavilion running Windows 7. I created a simple document using the Mac that contained three levels of Headings, an image with Alt Description and a simple 3x3 cell table. I made sure the Table had an Alternative Description and checked off that the top row was a Header row.
I then opened the test file with the Windows version of MS Office 2016 and was able to check the document with the Accessibility Checker in MS Office for Windows - there is (still) no Accessibility Checker in MS Office for Mac. The only accessibility error noted was an indication that there was no Heading Row in the table. It is very possible that I did not create the table correctly - will test further.
I then created another document in MS Office for Mac with the same content and saved it using the "Save as" PDF. I then opened this second test document with Adobe Acrobat Pro DC for the Mac, and test the document using the accessibility checker. The new PDF completely failed and was shown as having NO TAGS at all.
I then took the original document created on the Mac, opened it on the PC and "Saved as" a PDF on the PC. I then tested using the Accessibility Checker in Adobe Acrobat Pro on the PC and the file passed completely as an "accessible" PDF.
Summary/Conclusions
You can make fairly accessible Word documents with MS Office 2016 for Mac or PC. The error discovered had to do with headings in Tables - but in all fairness, I may have done this incorrectly so I will have to test further.
Presumably accessible documents created in MS Office 2016 for the Mac could NOT be successfully converted (by MS Office for the Mac) into an accessible and tagged PDF.
A generally accessible document created with MS Office 2016 for the Mac, when opened in MS Office 2016 for Windows and converted to PDF - was found to be accessible and correctly tagged PDF.
I will test PowerPoint when I get a chance.
~j
John E. Brandt
jebswebs: accessible and universal web design,
development and consultation
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
207-622-7937
Augusta, Maine, USA
@jebswebs
www.jebswebs.com
From: Chaals McCathie Nevile
Date: Thu, Nov 05 2015 4:03PM
Subject: Re: Office 365 for authoring accessible documents
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On Wed, 04 Nov 2015 19:02:39 +0100, Chaals McCathie Nevile
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Nov 2015 18:15:04 +0100, Olaf Drümmer
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>>> On 04.11.2015, at 16:13, Moore,Michael (Accessibility) (HHSC)
>>> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>>
>>> [...] I recommend publishing the content as HTML. There are a large
>>> number of free text and html editors available […]
>>
>> I'd be interested to learn about HTML editors that are usable and tend
>> to produce accessible HTML.
>>
>> I have tried
>> - SeaMonkey: horrible user experience
>> - TypeMetal on Mac: much better user experience than SeaMonkey, but
>> still a pain to use for all the documents I deal with.
>> - Dreamweaver and similar tools: from my POV not intended/suitable for
>> everyday documents 9rather tools for designers, website creators etc.)
>>
>> What else should I look at? Who is writing their memos, product infos,
>> white papers, in HTML, rather than Word, and can recommend a tool that
>> one could use like one uses Word?
>
> Me. I use BlueGriffon, which is generally pretty good for editing and
> gives me good control over the HTML it creates which is generally
> semantically clean and lovely (except if I paste stuff, then it gives me
> a rich Mac paste with a monstruous pile of span-style, but that's a Mac
> "feature" I believe).
>
> I don't think it has been updated for a while and wonder if it is still
> in development.
And of course because I haven't looked for a couple of weeks (being busy
with other stuff) I missed a big upgrade.
Yes, it is still in development.
cheers
--
Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = - - - Find more at http://yandex.com
From: Whitney Quesenbery
Date: Sat, Nov 07 2015 8:31AM
Subject: Re: Office 365 for authoring accessible documents
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Thanks for the great discussion. Very helpful.
No you still cannot create a tagged PDF on a Mac and without that...
I asked this question of Rob Sinclair of Microsoft at IAAP and he said
something like "It's getting better...look for new features soon." But no
promises.
<rant>I think we should all shout about this loudly enough that someone
hears our pain. Not to be able to create even a simple "text and a few
headings" document to a tagged PDF is unspeakable. It's not like the code
doesn't exist. It makes everything we do just that much harder. How long do
we have to wait?</rant>
On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 6:04 PM Chaals McCathie Nevile < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Nov 2015 19:02:39 +0100, Chaals McCathie Nevile
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 04 Nov 2015 18:15:04 +0100, Olaf Drümmer
> > < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> >>> On 04.11.2015, at 16:13, Moore,Michael (Accessibility) (HHSC)
> >>> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >>>
> >>> [...] I recommend publishing the content as HTML. There are a large
> >>> number of free text and html editors available […]
> >>
> >> I'd be interested to learn about HTML editors that are usable and tend
> >> to produce accessible HTML.
> >>
> >> I have tried
> >> - SeaMonkey: horrible user experience
> >> - TypeMetal on Mac: much better user experience than SeaMonkey, but
> >> still a pain to use for all the documents I deal with.
> >> - Dreamweaver and similar tools: from my POV not intended/suitable for
> >> everyday documents 9rather tools for designers, website creators etc.)
> >>
> >> What else should I look at? Who is writing their memos, product infos,
> >> white papers, in HTML, rather than Word, and can recommend a tool that
> >> one could use like one uses Word?
> >
> > Me. I use BlueGriffon, which is generally pretty good for editing and
> > gives me good control over the HTML it creates which is generally
> > semantically clean and lovely (except if I paste stuff, then it gives me
> > a rich Mac paste with a monstruous pile of span-style, but that's a Mac
> > "feature" I believe).
> >
> > I don't think it has been updated for a while and wonder if it is still
> > in development.
>
> And of course because I haven't looked for a couple of weeks (being busy
> with other stuff) I missed a big upgrade.
>
> Yes, it is still in development.
>
> cheers
>
>
> --
> Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = - - - Find more at http://yandex.com
> > > > >
From: Chagnon | PubCom.com
Date: Sat, Nov 07 2015 11:27AM
Subject: Re: Office 365 for authoring accessible documents
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RE: the rant, please include Apple in the rant, not just Microsoft and Adobe.
Being from the graphic arts and publishing fields, we've been dealing with this shortcoming since forever. Insiders have told me that the problem is due to Apple's operating systems, which are preventing Microsoft and Adobe from completing the task.
So please rant away to all of these key players.
All 3 have to step up the plate and do the right thing.
âBevi Chagnon
From: Whitney Quesenbery
Date: Sat, Nov 07 2015 3:28PM
Subject: Re: Office 365 for authoring accessible documents
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Hi Bevi. Right you are.
On 1:27PM, Sat, Nov 7, 2015 Chagnon | PubCom.com < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> RE: the rant, please include Apple in the rant, not just Microsoft and
> Adobe.
>
> Being from the graphic arts and publishing fields, we've been dealing with
> this shortcoming since forever. Insiders have told me that the problem is
> due to Apple's operating systems, which are preventing Microsoft and Adobe
> from completing the task.
>
> So please rant away to all of these key players.
> All 3 have to step up the plate and do the right thing.
>
> âBevi Chagnon
>
>