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Thread: Logo as an h1??
Number of posts in this thread: 15 (In chronological order)
From: Tomlins Diane
Date: Thu, Mar 02 2017 8:28AM
Subject: Logo as an h1??
No previous message | Next message →
Hello everyone :) Headings/logo question - we've had an accessibility consultant tell us that the logo on our sites should be wrapped in an <h1>. That was a popular practice years ago, but we no longer use it, haven't for years.
If the H1 is supposed to be the primary topic of the page you're on, how is announcing the company name that's in the logo, as an h1, make any sense?? That's really not the topic of the page. We have H1's on the pages that are actually relevant to the subject of the page and having the logo as an h1 would mean there would be 2 H1s on the page - one that makes sense, and one that really doesn't. That doesn't' seem to aid accessibility, in my opinion.
I'm inclined to push back on this recommendation, and I think I can make the argument, but I thought I'd ask those more experienced in this forum.
Thanks!
Diane R Tomlins
HCA Healthcare
Accessibility SME
From: Joseph Sherman
Date: Thu, Mar 02 2017 8:46AM
Subject: Re: Logo as an h1??
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I don't see a reason or purpose to wrap a logo in <h1>.
Joseph
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> Of Tomlins Diane
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2017 10:28 AM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: [WebAIM] Logo as an h1??
>
> Hello everyone :) Headings/logo question - we've had an accessibility consultant
> tell us that the logo on our sites should be wrapped in an <h1>. That was a popular
> practice years ago, but we no longer use it, haven't for years.
>
> If the H1 is supposed to be the primary topic of the page you're on, how is
> announcing the company name that's in the logo, as an h1, make any sense??
> That's really not the topic of the page. We have H1's on the pages that are actually
> relevant to the subject of the page and having the logo as an h1 would mean there
> would be 2 H1s on the page - one that makes sense, and one that really doesn't.
> That doesn't' seem to aid accessibility, in my opinion.
>
> I'm inclined to push back on this recommendation, and I think I can make the
> argument, but I thought I'd ask those more experienced in this forum.
> Thanks!
>
> Diane R Tomlins
> HCA Healthcare
> Accessibility SME
>
> > > http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>
From: Jared Smith
Date: Thu, Mar 02 2017 8:49AM
Subject: Re: Logo as an h1??
← Previous message | Next message →
Diane -
I would stick with your current practice of one <h1> as the main
document title for all of the well-articulated reasons you provided.
This provides very easy access to the main content area and the
heading that describes what the content of that page is.
The recommendation to make the logo an <h1> often comes from a common
yet incorrect assumption that an <h1> must be the first heading in a
document, which is sometimes reinforced by automated tools that flag
this as an "error".
Jared
From: Lovely, Brian (CONT)
Date: Thu, Mar 02 2017 8:54AM
Subject: Re: Logo as an h1??
← Previous message | Next message →
If it's just the typical active image that is linked to the home page, and appears in the typical page header location, that is actually a terrible use of an h1 element, since every page (assuming they all had the same page header) would all be "about" the same topic: your logo.
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Tomlins Diane
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2017 10:28 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Logo as an h1??
Hello everyone :) Headings/logo question - we've had an accessibility consultant tell us that the logo on our sites should be wrapped in an <h1>. That was a popular practice years ago, but we no longer use it, haven't for years.
If the H1 is supposed to be the primary topic of the page you're on, how is announcing the company name that's in the logo, as an h1, make any sense?? That's really not the topic of the page. We have H1's on the pages that are actually relevant to the subject of the page and having the logo as an h1 would mean there would be 2 H1s on the page - one that makes sense, and one that really doesn't. That doesn't' seem to aid accessibility, in my opinion.
I'm inclined to push back on this recommendation, and I think I can make the argument, but I thought I'd ask those more experienced in this forum.
Thanks!
Diane R Tomlins
HCA Healthcare
Accessibility SME
The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and/or proprietary to Capital One and/or its affiliates and may only be used solely in performance of work or services for Capital One. The information transmitted herewith is intended only for use by the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from your computer.
From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Thu, Mar 02 2017 9:32AM
Subject: Re: Logo as an h1??
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Keep in mind that standards -- WCAG and PDF/UA -- are designed to make sense for the majority of content and media. Your consultant's recommendation just doesn't make sense at all.
I can't think of an time where a logo can be used as a heading. Headings are titles of some portion of content. Logos, on the other hand, are branding images that designate ownership of a product, content, event, etc.
As others have said, your original use of H1 was correct.
--Bevi Chagnon
- - -
Bevi Chagnon | www.PubCom.com
Technologists, Consultants, Trainers, Designers, and Developers
for publishing & communication
| Acrobat PDF | Print | EPUBS | Sec. 508 Accessibility |
- - -
From: Tomlins Diane
Date: Thu, Mar 02 2017 10:12AM
Subject: Re: Logo as an h1??
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Thank you!
I don't know where they got this notion, but you have all confirmed my position on this, much appreciated.
Our logos are in the typical location - an image, top of the page and it's linked to the home page, with alt text that has the company/site name in it.
As for the consultants.. they weren't my choice, that part was out of my hands. I made several recommendations and these people were not among them. :-/
Diane R Tomlins
HCA Healthcare
Accessibility SME
>Diane -
>I would stick with your current practice of one <h1> as the main document title for all of the well-articulated reasons you provided.
>This provides very easy access to the main content area and the heading that describes what the content of that page is.
>The recommendation to make the logo an <h1> often comes from a common yet incorrect assumption that an <h1> must be the first heading in a document, which is sometimes reinforced by automated tools that flag this as an "error".
Jared
From: JP Jamous
Date: Thu, Mar 02 2017 10:39AM
Subject: Re: Logo as an h1??
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Diane,
To strengthen your point to that consultant, having the logo in H1 would deplete your ranking on search engines too. SEO specialists frown upon that concept as the crawler cannot read a picture. That's another bad practice to using an image inside any H tag.
I would suggest you inform that consultant that we are in HTML5 and it is year 2017. Get up to speed consultant. LOL
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Tomlins Diane
Sent: Thursday, March 2, 2017 9:28 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Logo as an h1??
Hello everyone :) Headings/logo question - we've had an accessibility consultant tell us that the logo on our sites should be wrapped in an <h1>. That was a popular practice years ago, but we no longer use it, haven't for years.
If the H1 is supposed to be the primary topic of the page you're on, how is announcing the company name that's in the logo, as an h1, make any sense?? That's really not the topic of the page. We have H1's on the pages that are actually relevant to the subject of the page and having the logo as an h1 would mean there would be 2 H1s on the page - one that makes sense, and one that really doesn't. That doesn't' seem to aid accessibility, in my opinion.
I'm inclined to push back on this recommendation, and I think I can make the argument, but I thought I'd ask those more experienced in this forum.
Thanks!
Diane R Tomlins
HCA Healthcare
Accessibility SME
From: Tomlins Diane
Date: Thu, Mar 02 2017 10:49AM
Subject: Re: Logo as an h1??
← Previous message | Next message →
LOL, I do believe that 2007 may have been a time when h1s around logos was common.
Excellent point JP :) We live and die by SEO and analytics so that point will carry some weight for sure.
Thanks!
Diane R Tomlins
HCA Healthcare
Accessibility SME
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of JP Jamous
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2017 11:39 AM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] Logo as an h1??
Diane,
To strengthen your point to that consultant, having the logo in H1 would deplete your ranking on search engines too. SEO specialists frown upon that concept as the crawler cannot read a picture. That's another bad practice to using an image inside any H tag.
I would suggest you inform that consultant that we are in HTML5 and it is year 2017. Get up to speed consultant. LOL
From: Philip Kiff
Date: Thu, Mar 02 2017 12:29PM
Subject: Re: Logo as an h1??
← Previous message | Next message →
I agree with the consensus here that putting your logo inside H1's
throughout your site is generally not the best approach. However, I
would put forward two special cases where the practice may be
acceptable.
1. On your home page
If you do not have your site name visible on your home page elsewhere
other than in your logo, then I would place your logo inside an H1 on
that page. The alternative text in that case would provide your site
name on that single page on your site.
2. On HTML 5 sites that make full, proper use of header, article,
section, footer tags
While support for old user agents means that I personally continue to
use only a single H1 on sites that I build, there is an argument to be
made that a site that makes proper use of all the HTML 5 structures, it
may in some cases make sense to include an H1 within the header and
*another* H1 within the body. And if, as in case 1 above, your header
does not have a plain text version of your site name, then it is
conceivably correct to apply the H1 to your logo in the header.
Theoretically, this should not affect your SEO, and various user agents
should be able to manage such structures. But my impression is that we
are still not at that point, and that for legacy reasons the best
practice is still to stick with just a single H1 on each page in most
use cases.
Phil.
From: Philip Kiff
Date: Thu, Mar 02 2017 12:32PM
Subject: Re: Logo as an h1??
← Previous message | Next message →
I meant to include this link to The Truth About Multiple H1 Tags in the
HTML5 Era from tutsplus:
https://webdesign.tutsplus.com/articles/the-truth-about-multiple-h1-tags-in-the-html5-era--webdesign-16824
On 2017-03-02 14:29, Philip Kiff wrote:
> I agree with the consensus here that putting your logo inside H1's
> throughout your site is generally not the best approach. However, I
> would put forward two special cases where the practice may be
> acceptable.
>
> 1. On your home page
> If you do not have your site name visible on your home page elsewhere
> other than in your logo, then I would place your logo inside an H1 on
> that page. The alternative text in that case would provide your site
> name on that single page on your site.
>
> 2. On HTML 5 sites that make full, proper use of header, article,
> section, footer tags
> While support for old user agents means that I personally continue to
> use only a single H1 on sites that I build, there is an argument to be
> made that a site that makes proper use of all the HTML 5 structures,
> it may in some cases make sense to include an H1 within the header and
> *another* H1 within the body. And if, as in case 1 above, your header
> does not have a plain text version of your site name, then it is
> conceivably correct to apply the H1 to your logo in the header.
> Theoretically, this should not affect your SEO, and various user
> agents should be able to manage such structures. But my impression is
> that we are still not at that point, and that for legacy reasons the
> best practice is still to stick with just a single H1 on each page in
> most use cases.
>
> Phil.
> > > >
From: Lovely, Brian (CONT)
Date: Thu, Mar 02 2017 12:38PM
Subject: Re: Logo as an h1??
← Previous message | Next message →
People, we have ignored one important possibility: what if the logo IS "H1"? That puts an entirely different slant on things altogether.
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Philip Kiff
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2017 2:29 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Logo as an h1??
I agree with the consensus here that putting your logo inside H1's throughout your site is generally not the best approach. However, I would put forward two special cases where the practice may be acceptable.
1. On your home page
If you do not have your site name visible on your home page elsewhere other than in your logo, then I would place your logo inside an H1 on that page. The alternative text in that case would provide your site name on that single page on your site.
2. On HTML 5 sites that make full, proper use of header, article, section, footer tags While support for old user agents means that I personally continue to use only a single H1 on sites that I build, there is an argument to be made that a site that makes proper use of all the HTML 5 structures, it may in some cases make sense to include an H1 within the header and
*another* H1 within the body. And if, as in case 1 above, your header does not have a plain text version of your site name, then it is conceivably correct to apply the H1 to your logo in the header.
Theoretically, this should not affect your SEO, and various user agents should be able to manage such structures. But my impression is that we are still not at that point, and that for legacy reasons the best practice is still to stick with just a single H1 on each page in most use cases.
Phil.
The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and/or proprietary to Capital One and/or its affiliates and may only be used solely in performance of work or services for Capital One. The information transmitted herewith is intended only for use by the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from your computer.
From: Lovely, Brian (CONT)
Date: Thu, Mar 02 2017 12:40PM
Subject: Re: Logo as an h1??
← Previous message | Next message →
STOP!
There is an outline algorithm described in HTML5 that would allow the use of H1 tags as described in the article, but it has not actually been implemented. The current HTML 5.1 spec says 'There are currently no known native implementations of the outline algorithm in graphical browsers or assistive technology user agents, although the algorithm is implemented in other software such as conformance checkers and browser extensions. Therefore the outline algorithm cannot be relied upon to convey document structure to users. Authors should use heading rank (h1-h6) to convey document structure.-
https://www.w3.org/TR/html/sections.html#creating-an-outline
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Philip Kiff
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2017 2:32 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Logo as an h1??
I meant to include this link to The Truth About Multiple H1 Tags in the
HTML5 Era from tutsplus:
https://webdesign.tutsplus.com/articles/the-truth-about-multiple-h1-tags-in-the-html5-era--webdesign-16824
On 2017-03-02 14:29, Philip Kiff wrote:
> I agree with the consensus here that putting your logo inside H1's
> throughout your site is generally not the best approach. However, I
> would put forward two special cases where the practice may be
> acceptable.
>
> 1. On your home page
> If you do not have your site name visible on your home page elsewhere
> other than in your logo, then I would place your logo inside an H1 on
> that page. The alternative text in that case would provide your site
> name on that single page on your site.
>
> 2. On HTML 5 sites that make full, proper use of header, article,
> section, footer tags While support for old user agents means that I
> personally continue to use only a single H1 on sites that I build,
> there is an argument to be made that a site that makes proper use of
> all the HTML 5 structures, it may in some cases make sense to include
> an H1 within the header and
> *another* H1 within the body. And if, as in case 1 above, your header
> does not have a plain text version of your site name, then it is
> conceivably correct to apply the H1 to your logo in the header.
> Theoretically, this should not affect your SEO, and various user
> agents should be able to manage such structures. But my impression is
> that we are still not at that point, and that for legacy reasons the
> best practice is still to stick with just a single H1 on each page in
> most use cases.
>
> Phil.
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and/or proprietary to Capital One and/or its affiliates and may only be used solely in performance of work or services for Capital One. The information transmitted herewith is intended only for use by the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from your computer.
From: Beranek, Nicholas
Date: Thu, Mar 02 2017 1:01PM
Subject: Re: Logo as an h1??
← Previous message | Next message →
Brian, keep it up dude; good conversation.
Everything ok??
Beautiful out here. Warm, sunny, fresh air. I'm learning a few things about where we're heading in the near future. It's bright, amigo.
Nick
Sent with Good (www.good.com)
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > on behalf of Lovely, Brian (CONT) < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Thursday, March 2, 2017 2:40:52 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Logo as an h1??
STOP!
There is an outline algorithm described in HTML5 that would allow the use of H1 tags as described in the article, but it has not actually been implemented. The current HTML 5.1 spec says 'There are currently no known native implementations of the outline algorithm in graphical browsers or assistive technology user agents, although the algorithm is implemented in other software such as conformance checkers and browser extensions. Therefore the outline algorithm cannot be relied upon to convey document structure to users. Authors should use heading rank (h1-h6) to convey document structure.-
https://www.w3.org/TR/html/sections.html#creating-an-outline
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Philip Kiff
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2017 2:32 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Logo as an h1??
I meant to include this link to The Truth About Multiple H1 Tags in the
HTML5 Era from tutsplus:
https://webdesign.tutsplus.com/articles/the-truth-about-multiple-h1-tags-in-the-html5-era--webdesign-16824
On 2017-03-02 14:29, Philip Kiff wrote:
> I agree with the consensus here that putting your logo inside H1's
> throughout your site is generally not the best approach. However, I
> would put forward two special cases where the practice may be
> acceptable.
>
> 1. On your home page
> If you do not have your site name visible on your home page elsewhere
> other than in your logo, then I would place your logo inside an H1 on
> that page. The alternative text in that case would provide your site
> name on that single page on your site.
>
> 2. On HTML 5 sites that make full, proper use of header, article,
> section, footer tags While support for old user agents means that I
> personally continue to use only a single H1 on sites that I build,
> there is an argument to be made that a site that makes proper use of
> all the HTML 5 structures, it may in some cases make sense to include
> an H1 within the header and
> *another* H1 within the body. And if, as in case 1 above, your header
> does not have a plain text version of your site name, then it is
> conceivably correct to apply the H1 to your logo in the header.
> Theoretically, this should not affect your SEO, and various user
> agents should be able to manage such structures. But my impression is
> that we are still not at that point, and that for legacy reasons the
> best practice is still to stick with just a single H1 on each page in
> most use cases.
>
> Phil.
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and/or proprietary to Capital One and/or its affiliates and may only be used solely in performance of work or services for Capital One. The information transmitted herewith is intended only for use by the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from your computer.
The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and/or proprietary to Capital One and/or its affiliates and may only be used solely in performance of work or services for Capital One. The information transmitted herewith is intended only for use by the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from your computer.
From: Beranek, Nicholas
Date: Thu, Mar 02 2017 1:32PM
Subject: Re: Logo as an h1??
← Previous message | Next message →
Whoops. Haha, sorry. This was obviously meant just for Brian!
Sent with Good (www.good.com)
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > on behalf of Beranek, Nicholas < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Thursday, March 2, 2017 3:01:08 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Logo as an h1??
Brian, keep it up dude; good conversation.
Everything ok??
Beautiful out here. Warm, sunny, fresh air. I'm learning a few things about where we're heading in the near future. It's bright, amigo.
Nick
Sent with Good (www.good.com<;http://www.good.com>;)
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > on behalf of Lovely, Brian (CONT) < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Thursday, March 2, 2017 2:40:52 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Logo as an h1??
STOP!
There is an outline algorithm described in HTML5 that would allow the use of H1 tags as described in the article, but it has not actually been implemented. The current HTML 5.1 spec says 'There are currently no known native implementations of the outline algorithm in graphical browsers or assistive technology user agents, although the algorithm is implemented in other software such as conformance checkers and browser extensions. Therefore the outline algorithm cannot be relied upon to convey document structure to users. Authors should use heading rank (h1-h6) to convey document structure.-
https://www.w3.org/TR/html/sections.html#creating-an-outline
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Philip Kiff
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2017 2:32 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Logo as an h1??
I meant to include this link to The Truth About Multiple H1 Tags in the
HTML5 Era from tutsplus:
https://webdesign.tutsplus.com/articles/the-truth-about-multiple-h1-tags-in-the-html5-era--webdesign-16824
On 2017-03-02 14:29, Philip Kiff wrote:
> I agree with the consensus here that putting your logo inside H1's
> throughout your site is generally not the best approach. However, I
> would put forward two special cases where the practice may be
> acceptable.
>
> 1. On your home page
> If you do not have your site name visible on your home page elsewhere
> other than in your logo, then I would place your logo inside an H1 on
> that page. The alternative text in that case would provide your site
> name on that single page on your site.
>
> 2. On HTML 5 sites that make full, proper use of header, article,
> section, footer tags While support for old user agents means that I
> personally continue to use only a single H1 on sites that I build,
> there is an argument to be made that a site that makes proper use of
> all the HTML 5 structures, it may in some cases make sense to include
> an H1 within the header and
> *another* H1 within the body. And if, as in case 1 above, your header
> does not have a plain text version of your site name, then it is
> conceivably correct to apply the H1 to your logo in the header.
> Theoretically, this should not affect your SEO, and various user
> agents should be able to manage such structures. But my impression is
> that we are still not at that point, and that for legacy reasons the
> best practice is still to stick with just a single H1 on each page in
> most use cases.
>
> Phil.
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and/or proprietary to Capital One and/or its affiliates and may only be used solely in performance of work or services for Capital One. The information transmitted herewith is intended only for use by the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from your computer.
The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and/or proprietary to Capital One and/or its affiliates and may only be used solely in performance of work or services for Capital One. The information transmitted herewith is intended only for use by the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from your computer.
The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and/or proprietary to Capital One and/or its affiliates and may only be used solely in performance of work or services for Capital One. The information transmitted herewith is intended only for use by the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from your computer.
From: Graham Armfield
Date: Thu, Mar 02 2017 2:27PM
Subject: Re: Logo as an h1??
← Previous message | No next message
8-)
Regards
Graham Armfield