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From: Tomlins Diane
Date: Fri, Apr 07 2017 1:44PM
Subject: resize text SC 1.4.4
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Hi folks,
Question (and apologies in advance for the length): how common is it that people using IE would use the IE-only method of text resizing - View, Text Resizing - vs. using the browser's zoom function?? I have tested it, and with px font sizing, the text will not resize using this IE method. Note that we no longer support versions of IE below 9 and site visitors are notified of that. We used to use ems, then went back to px a couple of years ago (unfortunately I had no voice in that development decision).

Reading the SC 1.4.4 Resize Text, it says: "The author cannot rely on the user agent to satisfy this Success Criterion for HTML content if users do not have access to a user agent with zoom support. For example, if they work in an environment that requires them to use IE 6." And "Content satisfies the Success Criterion if it can be scaled up to 200%, that is, up to twice the width and height."

Given that browser zoom does work and our sites do work and are readable at that 200% level, it seems we should be fine and pass 1.4.4. Or, do we fail anyway because of this IE-only method that doesn't work with px?

A consultant has told us that because someone using IE (including version 10 and above and Edge) cannot resize text using this IE View, Text Size method, that we need to go back to em units. This would be a huge body of work since we have many components, widgets, apps etc. that make up our sites and it would be just because of this ONE method of text sizing in ONE browser. I even pulled analytics to find out what percentage of our visitors are using IE, as well as mobile vs. desktop.

Your thoughts and collective wisdom greatly appreciated.

Diane R Tomlins
Accessibility SME
HCA

From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Fri, Apr 07 2017 1:47PM
Subject: Re: resize text SC 1.4.4
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> Given that browser zoom does work and our sites do work and are readable at that 200% level, it seems we should be fine and pass 1.4.4. Or, do we fail anyway because of this IE-only method that doesn't work with px?

Diane, using the browser zoom will allow you to meet SC 1.4.4. You do not need to rely on the text only resize feature. While the SC does say text must be resized -- that is the outcome not the means. Notwithstanding, browser zoom that creates horizontal scrollbars while conformant is not optimal for users with low vision and does cut down significantly on reading speed for people with low vision.

Jonathan

Jonathan Avila
Chief Accessibility Officer
SSB BART Group 
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
703.637.8957 (Office)

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-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Tomlins Diane
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2017 3:44 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] resize text SC 1.4.4

Hi folks,
Question (and apologies in advance for the length): how common is it that people using IE would use the IE-only method of text resizing - View, Text Resizing - vs. using the browser's zoom function?? I have tested it, and with px font sizing, the text will not resize using this IE method. Note that we no longer support versions of IE below 9 and site visitors are notified of that. We used to use ems, then went back to px a couple of years ago (unfortunately I had no voice in that development decision).

Reading the SC 1.4.4 Resize Text, it says: "The author cannot rely on the user agent to satisfy this Success Criterion for HTML content if users do not have access to a user agent with zoom support. For example, if they work in an environment that requires them to use IE 6." And "Content satisfies the Success Criterion if it can be scaled up to 200%, that is, up to twice the width and height."

Given that browser zoom does work and our sites do work and are readable at that 200% level, it seems we should be fine and pass 1.4.4. Or, do we fail anyway because of this IE-only method that doesn't work with px?

A consultant has told us that because someone using IE (including version 10 and above and Edge) cannot resize text using this IE View, Text Size method, that we need to go back to em units. This would be a huge body of work since we have many components, widgets, apps etc. that make up our sites and it would be just because of this ONE method of text sizing in ONE browser. I even pulled analytics to find out what percentage of our visitors are using IE, as well as mobile vs. desktop.

Your thoughts and collective wisdom greatly appreciated.

Diane R Tomlins
Accessibility SME
HCA

From: Tomlins Diane
Date: Fri, Apr 07 2017 2:20PM
Subject: Re: resize text SC 1.4.4
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Thank you Jonathan, that's what I thought I understood the SC to be - but I wanted to be sure I didn't hit some 'gotcha' in there.

Fortunately, when you use zoom on our sites, you do not get horizontal scrollbars, even zoomed up as far as it will go. :)

Diane R Tomlins
Accessibility SME
HCA

>Diane, using the browser zoom will allow you to meet SC 1.4.4. You do not need to rely on the text only resize feature. While the SC does say text must be resized -- that is the outcome not the means. Notwithstanding, browser zoom that creates horizontal scrollbars while conformant is not optimal for users with low vision and does cut down significantly on reading speed for people with low vision.

>Jonathan

>Jonathan Avila
>Chief Accessibility Officer
>SSB BART Group
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>703.637.8957 (Office)

From: Katie Haritos-Shea GMAIL
Date: Fri, Apr 07 2017 2:37PM
Subject: Re: resize text SC 1.4.4
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Browser zoom may not work in *all* cases, especially in the case of mobile content. Keep in mind that for mobile devices, content that developers have built for mobile web content/sites can put *constraints* on the ability for content to zoom and the viewport size. So you still need to test and keep a watch on that.

* katie *

Katie Haritos-Shea
Principal ICT Accessibility Architect (WCAG/Section 508/ADA/AODA)

Cell: 703-371-5545 | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = | Oakton, VA | LinkedIn Profile | Office: 703-371-5545 | @ryladog


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Tomlins Diane
Sent: Friday, April 7, 2017 4:20 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] resize text SC 1.4.4

Thank you Jonathan, that's what I thought I understood the SC to be - but I wanted to be sure I didn't hit some 'gotcha' in there.

Fortunately, when you use zoom on our sites, you do not get horizontal scrollbars, even zoomed up as far as it will go. :)

Diane R Tomlins
Accessibility SME
HCA

>Diane, using the browser zoom will allow you to meet SC 1.4.4. You do not need to rely on the text only resize feature. While the SC does say text must be resized -- that is the outcome not the means. Notwithstanding, browser zoom that creates horizontal scrollbars while conformant is not optimal for users with low vision and does cut down significantly on reading speed for people with low vision.

>Jonathan

>Jonathan Avila
>Chief Accessibility Officer
>SSB BART Group
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>703.637.8957 (Office)

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Fri, Apr 07 2017 4:06PM
Subject: Re: resize text SC 1.4.4
← Previous message | Next message →

On 07/04/2017 21:37, Katie Haritos-Shea GMAIL wrote:
> Browser zoom may not work in *all* cases, especially in the case of mobile content. Keep in mind that for mobile devices, content that developers have built for mobile web content/sites can put *constraints* on the ability for content to zoom and the viewport size. So you still need to test and keep a watch on that.

With a follow-up that recent versions of iOS/Safari, as well as Windows
10 Mobile/Edge, now ignore any meta viewport restrictions that stop
users from zooming by default. Other current mobile browsers have a user
setting for users to explicitly override this (Windows Phone 8 in OS
settings > ease of access > allow zooming on all web content; Chrome
settings > Accessibility > Force enable zoom; Opera settings > Force
enable zoom; Firefox settings > Accessibility > Always enable zoom;
Samsung Internet settings > Manual zoom).

But yes, for older mobile browsers (e.g. older versions of iOS, old
Android/Browser, etc) still relevant advice.

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Katie Haritos-Shea
Date: Fri, Apr 07 2017 4:16PM
Subject: Re: resize text SC 1.4.4
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Thanks for that update Patrick!

Katie Haritos-Shea
703-371-5545

On Apr 7, 2017 6:06 PM, "Patrick H. Lauke" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> On 07/04/2017 21:37, Katie Haritos-Shea GMAIL wrote:
>
>> Browser zoom may not work in *all* cases, especially in the case of
>> mobile content. Keep in mind that for mobile devices, content that
>> developers have built for mobile web content/sites can put *constraints* on
>> the ability for content to zoom and the viewport size. So you still need to
>> test and keep a watch on that.
>>
>
> With a follow-up that recent versions of iOS/Safari, as well as Windows 10
> Mobile/Edge, now ignore any meta viewport restrictions that stop users from
> zooming by default. Other current mobile browsers have a user setting for
> users to explicitly override this (Windows Phone 8 in OS settings > ease of
> access > allow zooming on all web content; Chrome settings > Accessibility
> > Force enable zoom; Opera settings > Force enable zoom; Firefox settings >
> Accessibility > Always enable zoom; Samsung Internet settings > Manual
> zoom).
>
> But yes, for older mobile browsers (e.g. older versions of iOS, old
> Android/Browser, etc) still relevant advice.
>
> P
> --
> Patrick H. Lauke
>
> www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
> http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
> twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
> > > > >

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Sun, Apr 09 2017 8:51AM
Subject: Re: resize text SC 1.4.4
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Unless you are producing content that can only be exclusively accessed
in a closed environment, where e.g. Firefox is not availalbe for
download, that argument does not really apply, see the definition of
accessibility supported
http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/conformance.html
)if the content works in one widely support user agent available for
download or does not cost a person with a disability any more than a
person without, both are true for Firefox and Chrome, although Chrome
has spotty accessibility support).
Users are able to update mainstream browsers are little to no cost,
and there are many reasons why they should which have nothing to do
with accessibility (e.g. security).
As long as your content is coded according to standard and works with
a mainstream agent at least 1 or 2 versions back (I go with 2), you
should be fine. Requiring that your web content works with IE 6 or
Jaws 9 is not an matter of accessibility conformance, as long as NVDA
and Firefox are available to the user.



On 4/7/17, Katie Haritos-Shea < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Thanks for that update Patrick!
>
> Katie Haritos-Shea
> 703-371-5545
>
> On Apr 7, 2017 6:06 PM, "Patrick H. Lauke" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> On 07/04/2017 21:37, Katie Haritos-Shea GMAIL wrote:
>>
>>> Browser zoom may not work in *all* cases, especially in the case of
>>> mobile content. Keep in mind that for mobile devices, content that
>>> developers have built for mobile web content/sites can put *constraints*
>>> on
>>> the ability for content to zoom and the viewport size. So you still need
>>> to
>>> test and keep a watch on that.
>>>
>>
>> With a follow-up that recent versions of iOS/Safari, as well as Windows 10
>> Mobile/Edge, now ignore any meta viewport restrictions that stop users
>> from
>> zooming by default. Other current mobile browsers have a user setting for
>> users to explicitly override this (Windows Phone 8 in OS settings > ease
>> of
>> access > allow zooming on all web content; Chrome settings > Accessibility
>> > Force enable zoom; Opera settings > Force enable zoom; Firefox settings
>> > >
>> Accessibility > Always enable zoom; Samsung Internet settings > Manual
>> zoom).
>>
>> But yes, for older mobile browsers (e.g. older versions of iOS, old
>> Android/Browser, etc) still relevant advice.
>>
>> P
>> --
>> Patrick H. Lauke
>>
>> www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
>> http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
>> twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
>> >> >> >> >>
> > > > >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: Mallory
Date: Mon, Apr 10 2017 6:58AM
Subject: Re: resize text SC 1.4.4
← Previous message | No next message

Only a Note:
Chrome support for Dragon is spotty and now the plugin in FF doesn't
work.
With Dragon I'm pretty much IE only currently. I know that's Nuance's
fault
but there are times where users are either going to need to view
something
on two browsers because of (lack of) support or rely on a single
browser.

Yes, browsers can be updated cost-free, but everything you need still
needs
to work with them. I was stuck on IE9 until I could cough up 80 euros
for my
ZoomText upgrade.

cheers,
_mallory


On Sun, Apr 9, 2017, at 04:51 PM, Birkir R. Gunnarsson wrote:
> Unless you are producing content that can only be exclusively accessed
> in a closed environment, where e.g. Firefox is not availalbe for
> download, that argument does not really apply, see the definition of
> accessibility supported
> http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/conformance.html
> )if the content works in one widely support user agent available for
> download or does not cost a person with a disability any more than a
> person without, both are true for Firefox and Chrome, although Chrome
> has spotty accessibility support).
> Users are able to update mainstream browsers are little to no cost,
> and there are many reasons why they should which have nothing to do
> with accessibility (e.g. security).
> As long as your content is coded according to standard and works with
> a mainstream agent at least 1 or 2 versions back (I go with 2), you
> should be fine. Requiring that your web content works with IE 6 or
> Jaws 9 is not an matter of accessibility conformance, as long as NVDA
> and Firefox are available to the user.
>
>
>
> On 4/7/17, Katie Haritos-Shea < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > Thanks for that update Patrick!
> >
> > Katie Haritos-Shea
> > 703-371-5545
> >
> > On Apr 7, 2017 6:06 PM, "Patrick H. Lauke" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> >> On 07/04/2017 21:37, Katie Haritos-Shea GMAIL wrote:
> >>
> >>> Browser zoom may not work in *all* cases, especially in the case of
> >>> mobile content. Keep in mind that for mobile devices, content that
> >>> developers have built for mobile web content/sites can put *constraints*
> >>> on
> >>> the ability for content to zoom and the viewport size. So you still need
> >>> to
> >>> test and keep a watch on that.
> >>>
> >>
> >> With a follow-up that recent versions of iOS/Safari, as well as Windows 10
> >> Mobile/Edge, now ignore any meta viewport restrictions that stop users
> >> from
> >> zooming by default. Other current mobile browsers have a user setting for
> >> users to explicitly override this (Windows Phone 8 in OS settings > ease
> >> of
> >> access > allow zooming on all web content; Chrome settings > Accessibility
> >> > Force enable zoom; Opera settings > Force enable zoom; Firefox settings
> >> > >
> >> Accessibility > Always enable zoom; Samsung Internet settings > Manual
> >> zoom).
> >>
> >> But yes, for older mobile browsers (e.g. older versions of iOS, old
> >> Android/Browser, etc) still relevant advice.
> >>
> >> P
> >> --
> >> Patrick H. Lauke
> >>
> >> www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
> >> http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
> >> twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
> >> > >> > >> > >> > >>
> > > > > > > > > >
>
>
> --
> Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
> > > >