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Thread: US v USA
Number of posts in this thread: 13 (In chronological order)
From: McGarvey, Paul
Date: Tue, May 09 2017 5:44AM
Subject: US v USA
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Hi,
Given that screenreaders will often try and read out acronymns and abbreviations with vowels as words, is it best to avoid using US when referring to the United States of America? Would US dollars be read out as us dollars?
Regards,
Paul McGarvey
Senior Content Editor/Golygydd Cynnwys Uwch
Digital Publishing Division | Is-adran Cyhoeddi Digidol
Room 1.101 | Ystafell 1.101
Office for National Statistics | Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol
Government Buildings | Adeiladau'r Llywodraeth
Cardiff Road | Heol Caerdydd
Newport | Casnewydd
NP10 8XG
Telephone | Ffôn: 01633 45 6019
For the latest data on the economy and society, consult National Statistics at http://www.ons.gov.uk
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Please Note: Incoming and outgoing email messages are routinely monitored for compliance with our policy
on the use of electronic communications
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Legal Disclaimer: Any views expressed by the sender of this message are not necessarily those of the
Office for National Statistics
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From: Alon Fridman Waisbard
Date: Tue, May 09 2017 5:57AM
Subject: Re: US v USA
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I just listened to this mail with NVDA on Windows, and heard "us" both when
it was written in upper or lower case.
And heard U.S.A. when you wrote USA in the subject.
So USA seems better.
Though I think that you can also define US as abbreviation of USA or United
States of America and it'll be read like that.
On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 2:44 PM, McGarvey, Paul < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Given that screenreaders will often try and read out acronymns and
> abbreviations with vowels as words, is it best to avoid using US when
> referring to the United States of America? Would US dollars be read out as
> us dollars?
>
> Regards,
>
> Paul McGarvey
> Senior Content Editor/Golygydd Cynnwys Uwch
> Digital Publishing Division | Is-adran Cyhoeddi Digidol
> Room 1.101 | Ystafell 1.101
> Office for National Statistics | Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol
> Government Buildings | Adeiladau'r Llywodraeth
> Cardiff Road | Heol Caerdydd
> Newport | Casnewydd
> NP10 8XG
> Telephone | Ffôn: 01633 45 6019
>
>
> For the latest data on the economy and society, consult National
> Statistics at http://www.ons.gov.uk
>
> ************************************************************
> ***********************************
> Please Note: Incoming and outgoing email messages are routinely monitored
> for compliance with our policy
> on the use of electronic communications
>
> ************************************************************
> ***********************************
>
> Legal Disclaimer: Any views expressed by the sender of this message are
> not necessarily those of the
> Office for National Statistics
> ************************************************************
> ***********************************
> > > > >
--
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Tue, May 09 2017 6:07AM
Subject: Re: US v USA
← Previous message | Next message →
You can approach this in a few dfferent ways.
I think it is important to minimize the special coding of acronyms
just for screen readers, because the screen reader user travels all
over the web and builds certain expctations for how words are
pronounced by the sreen reader.
Here are a few interesting things you can do though:
1. Use the <abbr> tag for all acronyms. For common ones like ATM or
US, I don't think you need to provide a title explaining it, but the
abbreviation tag should be sufficient hint to screen readers that they
should spell out the word inside it (I haven't tested this, I will
today if I get a chance, if not, file a bug with the vendors).
so <abbr>US</abbr> should be pronounced U S.
You can also instruct screen reader users about acronyms you use
frequently and suggest they add them to their screen reader
dictionaries. USAA actually does this on their accessibility
nformation page:
https://www.usaa.com/inet/pages/accessibility_at_usaa_main?wa_ref=pub_subglobal_footer_accessibility
(you may have to expand the desktop section to see it).
3. This is a hac and t is not consistent, but you could use aria-label
to override the text in a span element:
<span aria-label="U S">US</span>
I am not a fan of ths approach except in very rare circumstances, and
it is not fully supported across all browserscreen reader
combinations, but it is something that could be done.
-B
On 5/9/17, Alon Fridman Waisbard < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> I just listened to this mail with NVDA on Windows, and heard "us" both when
> it was written in upper or lower case.
> And heard U.S.A. when you wrote USA in the subject.
> So USA seems better.
> Though I think that you can also define US as abbreviation of USA or United
> States of America and it'll be read like that.
>
> On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 2:44 PM, McGarvey, Paul < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Given that screenreaders will often try and read out acronymns and
>> abbreviations with vowels as words, is it best to avoid using US when
>> referring to the United States of America? Would US dollars be read out as
>> us dollars?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Paul McGarvey
>> Senior Content Editor/Golygydd Cynnwys Uwch
>> Digital Publishing Division | Is-adran Cyhoeddi Digidol
>> Room 1.101 | Ystafell 1.101
>> Office for National Statistics | Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol
>> Government Buildings | Adeiladau'r Llywodraeth
>> Cardiff Road | Heol Caerdydd
>> Newport | Casnewydd
>> NP10 8XG
>> Telephone | Ffôn: 01633 45 6019
>>
>>
>> For the latest data on the economy and society, consult National
>> Statistics at http://www.ons.gov.uk
>>
>> ************************************************************
>> ***********************************
>> Please Note: Incoming and outgoing email messages are routinely monitored
>> for compliance with our policy
>> on the use of electronic communications
>>
>> ************************************************************
>> ***********************************
>>
>> Legal Disclaimer: Any views expressed by the sender of this message are
>> not necessarily those of the
>> Office for National Statistics
>> ************************************************************
>> ***********************************
>> >> >> >> >>
>
>
>
> --
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > > >
--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
From: Alon Fridman Waisbard
Date: Tue, May 09 2017 6:20AM
Subject: Re: US v USA
← Previous message | Next message →
Tested again with NVDA.
It did not read US as U S.
Not when I used abbr and not with span with aria-label.
On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 3:07 PM, Birkir R. Gunnarsson <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> You can approach this in a few dfferent ways.
> I think it is important to minimize the special coding of acronyms
> just for screen readers, because the screen reader user travels all
> over the web and builds certain expctations for how words are
> pronounced by the sreen reader.
> Here are a few interesting things you can do though:
> 1. Use the <abbr> tag for all acronyms. For common ones like ATM or
> US, I don't think you need to provide a title explaining it, but the
> abbreviation tag should be sufficient hint to screen readers that they
> should spell out the word inside it (I haven't tested this, I will
> today if I get a chance, if not, file a bug with the vendors).
> so <abbr>US</abbr> should be pronounced U S.
> You can also instruct screen reader users about acronyms you use
> frequently and suggest they add them to their screen reader
> dictionaries. USAA actually does this on their accessibility
> nformation page:
> https://www.usaa.com/inet/pages/accessibility_at_usaa_
> main?wa_ref=pub_subglobal_footer_accessibility
> (you may have to expand the desktop section to see it).
>
> 3. This is a hac and t is not consistent, but you could use aria-label
> to override the text in a span element:
> <span aria-label="U S">US</span>
> I am not a fan of ths approach except in very rare circumstances, and
> it is not fully supported across all browserscreen reader
> combinations, but it is something that could be done.
> -B
>
> On 5/9/17, Alon Fridman Waisbard < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > I just listened to this mail with NVDA on Windows, and heard "us" both
> when
> > it was written in upper or lower case.
> > And heard U.S.A. when you wrote USA in the subject.
> > So USA seems better.
> > Though I think that you can also define US as abbreviation of USA or
> United
> > States of America and it'll be read like that.
> >
> > On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 2:44 PM, McGarvey, Paul < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> Given that screenreaders will often try and read out acronymns and
> >> abbreviations with vowels as words, is it best to avoid using US when
> >> referring to the United States of America? Would US dollars be read out
> as
> >> us dollars?
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Paul McGarvey
> >> Senior Content Editor/Golygydd Cynnwys Uwch
> >> Digital Publishing Division | Is-adran Cyhoeddi Digidol
> >> Room 1.101 | Ystafell 1.101
> >> Office for National Statistics | Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol
> >> Government Buildings | Adeiladau'r Llywodraeth
> >> Cardiff Road | Heol Caerdydd
> >> Newport | Casnewydd
> >> NP10 8XG
> >> Telephone | Ffôn: 01633 45 6019
> >>
> >>
> >> For the latest data on the economy and society, consult National
> >> Statistics at http://www.ons.gov.uk
> >>
> >> ************************************************************
> >> ***********************************
> >> Please Note: Incoming and outgoing email messages are routinely
> monitored
> >> for compliance with our policy
> >> on the use of electronic communications
> >>
> >> ************************************************************
> >> ***********************************
> >>
> >> Legal Disclaimer: Any views expressed by the sender of this message are
> >> not necessarily those of the
> >> Office for National Statistics
> >> ************************************************************
> >> ***********************************
> >> > >> > >> > >> > >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > > > > > > > >
>
>
> --
> Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
> > > > >
--
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Tue, May 09 2017 6:32AM
Subject: Re: US v USA
← Previous message | Next message →
It would be very helpful if our assistive technology manufacturers would implement the <ABBR> tag.
Do any of our screen readers recognize it? From Alon F's test below, NVDA doesn't.
--Bevi Chagnon
-
Bevi Chagnon | www.PubCom.com
Technologists, Consultants, Trainers, Designers, and Developers
for publishing & communication
| Acrobat PDF | Print | EPUBS | Sec. 508 Accessibility |
-
From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Tue, May 09 2017 8:12AM
Subject: Re: US v USA
← Previous message | Next message →
Sadly,no, they do not do this properly.
I have fild an issue with VFO re Jaws, I need to check if someone has with NVDA.
A screen reader should:
* Always spell out any word inside an <abbr> tag.
* If the full term is available in the tag (viaits title attribute),
the screen reader should make the user aware of it and offer
configuration settings to read the expanded form along with or instead
of the abbreviated form.
On 5/9/17, Chagnon | PubCom < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> It would be very helpful if our assistive technology manufacturers would
> implement the <ABBR> tag.
> Do any of our screen readers recognize it? From Alon F's test below, NVDA
> doesn't.
> --Bevi Chagnon
>
> -
> Bevi Chagnon | www.PubCom.com
> Technologists, Consultants, Trainers, Designers, and Developers
> for publishing & communication
> | Acrobat PDF | Print | EPUBS | Sec. 508 Accessibility |
> -
>
>
> > > > >
--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
From: Graham Armfield
Date: Tue, May 09 2017 9:32AM
Subject: Re: US v USA
← Previous message | Next message →
This is complicated because some abbreviations are intended to be read out
as individual letters - acronyms like BBC - wheres some abbreviations are
supposed to read out as a word - example Gen. for General. Additionally,
some acronyms are commonly read out as if they were a word - examples UCAS,
CAMRA, NASA.
We no longer have the <acronym> tag, just the <abbr> element. So getting
screen readers to read them out correctly with just the <abbr> tag with the
title attribute is a real challenge.
Last time I tried the <abbr> tag with NVDA, it didn't give any audible
evidence that an abbreviation was present.
Regards
Graham Armfield
From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Tue, May 09 2017 9:48AM
Subject: Re: US v USA
← Previous message | Next message →
Good points.
Ultimately it comes down to better support for CSS3 speech support:
http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-speech/
Webpage authors should be able to have some control over how text is
spoken, just like they have some control over how a page is displayed.
We don't want to give the authors too much control, because users need
to be able to override it (just like they can override most CSS style
seets with their own).
On 5/9/17, Graham Armfield < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> This is complicated because some abbreviations are intended to be read out
> as individual letters - acronyms like BBC - wheres some abbreviations are
> supposed to read out as a word - example Gen. for General. Additionally,
> some acronyms are commonly read out as if they were a word - examples UCAS,
> CAMRA, NASA.
>
> We no longer have the <acronym> tag, just the <abbr> element. So getting
> screen readers to read them out correctly with just the <abbr> tag with the
> title attribute is a real challenge.
>
> Last time I tried the <abbr> tag with NVDA, it didn't give any audible
> evidence that an abbreviation was present.
>
> Regards
> Graham Armfield
> > > > >
--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
From: Mallory
Date: Tue, May 09 2017 11:53AM
Subject: Re: US v USA
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi all,
JAWS will read out abbrs, but only if you turn that on (as I have). This
because calendars, ug.
When an SR who doesn't know the abbr sees something that *could* be
pronounced as a word, such as MA (say, for Massachussettes), it'll say
it as a word ("ma" is a valid word). For those it can't see as a word,
like "NV", it'll usually read the letters separately.
Bryan Smart among others have been complaining publicly about
VoiceOver's special terribleness with abbreviations-- apparently, and
without the user being able to change this, it'll substitute what it
thinks are abbreviations with whatever it assumes the full word is. One
example (which I thing Bryan said they've since fixed) was the CO (such
as in "Denver, CO") would always convert to "company". Apparently there
are several of these and most are not fixed nor fixable by users. This
is worse than not saying anything other that the letters on the screen.
The NVDA not exposing (or having that I could find a place to turn on
abbrs) is old and there may already be a bug filed. If not then it would
be great to file one.
Currently on some of our STEM classes we sometimes have some
instructions for students "turn on abbreviations in your screen reader's
settings" (as well as "turn up your verbosity for the following section"
(because mathz)).
cheers
Mallory
On Tue, May 9, 2017, at 05:48 PM, Birkir R. Gunnarsson wrote:
> Good points.
> Ultimately it comes down to better support for CSS3 speech support:
> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-speech/
>
> Webpage authors should be able to have some control over how text is
> spoken, just like they have some control over how a page is displayed.
> We don't want to give the authors too much control, because users need
> to be able to override it (just like they can override most CSS style
> seets with their own).
>
>
> On 5/9/17, Graham Armfield < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > This is complicated because some abbreviations are intended to be read out
> > as individual letters - acronyms like BBC - wheres some abbreviations are
> > supposed to read out as a word - example Gen. for General. Additionally,
> > some acronyms are commonly read out as if they were a word - examples UCAS,
> > CAMRA, NASA.
> >
> > We no longer have the <acronym> tag, just the <abbr> element. So getting
> > screen readers to read them out correctly with just the <abbr> tag with the
> > title attribute is a real challenge.
> >
> > Last time I tried the <abbr> tag with NVDA, it didn't give any audible
> > evidence that an abbreviation was present.
> >
> > Regards
> > Graham Armfield
> > > > > > > > > >
>
>
> --
> Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
> > > >
From: KP
Date: Tue, May 09 2017 2:12PM
Subject: Re: US v USA
← Previous message | Next message →
Slightly cheeky perhaps but company is a way more likely guess than Colorado unless you happen to be in CO. Then again CO is clearly different to Co.
Sent from my iPhone
> On 10/05/2017, at 05:53, Mallory < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> JAWS will read out abbrs, but only if you turn that on (as I have). This
> because calendars, ug.
>
> When an SR who doesn't know the abbr sees something that *could* be
> pronounced as a word, such as MA (say, for Massachussettes), it'll say
> it as a word ("ma" is a valid word). For those it can't see as a word,
> like "NV", it'll usually read the letters separately.
>
> Bryan Smart among others have been complaining publicly about
> VoiceOver's special terribleness with abbreviations-- apparently, and
> without the user being able to change this, it'll substitute what it
> thinks are abbreviations with whatever it assumes the full word is. One
> example (which I thing Bryan said they've since fixed) was the CO (such
> as in "Denver, CO") would always convert to "company". Apparently there
> are several of these and most are not fixed nor fixable by users. This
> is worse than not saying anything other that the letters on the screen.
>
> The NVDA not exposing (or having that I could find a place to turn on
> abbrs) is old and there may already be a bug filed. If not then it would
> be great to file one.
>
> Currently on some of our STEM classes we sometimes have some
> instructions for students "turn on abbreviations in your screen reader's
> settings" (as well as "turn up your verbosity for the following section"
> (because mathz)).
>
> cheers
> Mallory
>
>> On Tue, May 9, 2017, at 05:48 PM, Birkir R. Gunnarsson wrote:
>> Good points.
>> Ultimately it comes down to better support for CSS3 speech support:
>> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-speech/
>>
>> Webpage authors should be able to have some control over how text is
>> spoken, just like they have some control over how a page is displayed.
>> We don't want to give the authors too much control, because users need
>> to be able to override it (just like they can override most CSS style
>> seets with their own).
>>
>>
>>> On 5/9/17, Graham Armfield < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>> This is complicated because some abbreviations are intended to be read out
>>> as individual letters - acronyms like BBC - wheres some abbreviations are
>>> supposed to read out as a word - example Gen. for General. Additionally,
>>> some acronyms are commonly read out as if they were a word - examples UCAS,
>>> CAMRA, NASA.
>>>
>>> We no longer have the <acronym> tag, just the <abbr> element. So getting
>>> screen readers to read them out correctly with just the <abbr> tag with the
>>> title attribute is a real challenge.
>>>
>>> Last time I tried the <abbr> tag with NVDA, it didn't give any audible
>>> evidence that an abbreviation was present.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Graham Armfield
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
>> >> >> >> > > > >
From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Tue, May 09 2017 2:18PM
Subject: Re: US v USA
← Previous message | Next message →
This is why the acronym ACE for Accessibility Center of xcellence is
so neat .. it's either cool or descriptive, depending which way it is
pronounced.
We'd prefer it to be both, but at least ACE is a word.
On 5/9/17, KP < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Slightly cheeky perhaps but company is a way more likely guess than Colorado
> unless you happen to be in CO. Then again CO is clearly different to Co.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On 10/05/2017, at 05:53, Mallory < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>> JAWS will read out abbrs, but only if you turn that on (as I have). This
>> because calendars, ug.
>>
>> When an SR who doesn't know the abbr sees something that *could* be
>> pronounced as a word, such as MA (say, for Massachussettes), it'll say
>> it as a word ("ma" is a valid word). For those it can't see as a word,
>> like "NV", it'll usually read the letters separately.
>>
>> Bryan Smart among others have been complaining publicly about
>> VoiceOver's special terribleness with abbreviations-- apparently, and
>> without the user being able to change this, it'll substitute what it
>> thinks are abbreviations with whatever it assumes the full word is. One
>> example (which I thing Bryan said they've since fixed) was the CO (such
>> as in "Denver, CO") would always convert to "company". Apparently there
>> are several of these and most are not fixed nor fixable by users. This
>> is worse than not saying anything other that the letters on the screen.
>>
>> The NVDA not exposing (or having that I could find a place to turn on
>> abbrs) is old and there may already be a bug filed. If not then it would
>> be great to file one.
>>
>> Currently on some of our STEM classes we sometimes have some
>> instructions for students "turn on abbreviations in your screen reader's
>> settings" (as well as "turn up your verbosity for the following section"
>> (because mathz)).
>>
>> cheers
>> Mallory
>>
>>> On Tue, May 9, 2017, at 05:48 PM, Birkir R. Gunnarsson wrote:
>>> Good points.
>>> Ultimately it comes down to better support for CSS3 speech support:
>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-speech/
>>>
>>> Webpage authors should be able to have some control over how text is
>>> spoken, just like they have some control over how a page is displayed.
>>> We don't want to give the authors too much control, because users need
>>> to be able to override it (just like they can override most CSS style
>>> seets with their own).
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 5/9/17, Graham Armfield < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>>> This is complicated because some abbreviations are intended to be read
>>>> out
>>>> as individual letters - acronyms like BBC - wheres some abbreviations
>>>> are
>>>> supposed to read out as a word - example Gen. for General. Additionally,
>>>> some acronyms are commonly read out as if they were a word - examples
>>>> UCAS,
>>>> CAMRA, NASA.
>>>>
>>>> We no longer have the <acronym> tag, just the <abbr> element. So getting
>>>> screen readers to read them out correctly with just the <abbr> tag with
>>>> the
>>>> title attribute is a real challenge.
>>>>
>>>> Last time I tried the <abbr> tag with NVDA, it didn't give any audible
>>>> evidence that an abbreviation was present.
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> Graham Armfield
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >
> > > > >
--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
From: McGarvey, Paul
Date: Wed, May 10 2017 4:08AM
Subject: Re: US v USA
← Previous message | Next message →
Thanks all for your help. Will take these comments on board.
From: Andrews, David B (DEED)
Date: Wed, May 10 2017 8:27AM
Subject: Re: US v USA
← Previous message | No next message
This is further complicated by the fact that some speech synthesizers automatically make substitutions of their own -- is it Doctor or Drive, or Saint or Street, for example.
Dave