WebAIM - Web Accessibility In Mind

E-mail List Archives

Thread: What motivates you?

for

Number of posts in this thread: 15 (In chronological order)

From: James Merrill
Date: Fri, Mar 03 2000 11:51AM
Subject: What motivates you?
No previous message | Next message →

Almost every Web designer is overwhelmed by the tasks of creating,
maintaining and updating their web sites. Our experience is that many
designers find the idea of making a "web accessible" site an overwhelming
task and just another thing to add to their list of things to do.
The Web'AIM initiative group is holding an internal discussion on this topic
and would like to know:
1) What has been your experience in trying to make your sites accessible to
people with disabilities?
2) What factors motivate you or would motivate you to design with
accessibility in mind?

We encourage all of you to participate in this discussion!

From: Kathryn Wyeth
Date: Fri, Mar 03 2000 8:34PM
Subject: Re: What motivates you?
← Previous message | Next message →

What my experience/motivation is in making a site accessible:
I started doing web pages using a WYSIWYG editor until I realized what this
did to the html then began learning this. I work for a disability rights
organization and hate not walking the talk as they say.
We don't have allot of resources so mostly am self taught as are the rest of
folks who edit the pages. I have become somewhat the access police (less
nice words used sometimes) since point out access problems all the time and
have tried to generate some pride in that fact that our pages are
accessible. But I also keep learning new things about access myself. This
is a quickly changing world and there are no real "experts" in the
traditional sense.
One problem we have is that a lot of the "free" stuff, like search engines
and the like, can't be customized too much and is not accessible. We can't
always afford to buy things and I am learning as fast as I can re: doing
more in-house. So sometimes, there are features on the pages that I am not
happy about re: accessibility.
I have tried to go in and correct things on pages for folks affiliated with
us (at their request) to be met with resistance if access means making the
page look too different. For example, I took out table formatting on one
page that was only for visual effect and they decided to stay with the
original format because "people were used to it that way."
It sure is a lot easier to design access from the start than it is to go in
later and change things!
Some folks insist on doing a page first then maybe later doing a text only
version. Even when I try to talk them out of it. Too hard to learn about
access is the reason. In my learning, I sometimes have to undo things. But
that's part of learning. I hear tips and think it will help the site's
navigation then find out its a real access problem and go in and undo (last
time 409 times across 280 pages!!) what I spent hours doing. I would be
happy if someone told me up front about the problem but guess other people
are not.
I think one factor that motivates me is that good design = accessible
design. Our audience quite clearly includes people with disabilities for
one thing. I also really believe that making sure the site is accessible
makes it easier for everyone -you know, like ramps and door openers and
speech input and other formerly "special" design features.
There may also be a market niche here with accessible sites and the ability
to design them. There has been some big bucks and effort into disability
portals as late (i.e. wemedia, adaptz/halfthe world.com and the like) They
are having accessibility problems though. AOL getting sued is an
interesting development as are the recent congressional hearings re: how the
Americans with Disabilities Act applies to web sites.

Kathryn Wyeth
Michigan Disability Rights Coalition
www.copower.org
1(800)760-4600

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM accessibility forum
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]On Behalf Of James Merrill
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2000 1:52 PM
To: WebAIM accessibility forum
Subject: What motivates you?

Almost every Web designer is overwhelmed by the tasks of creating,
maintaining and updating their web sites. Our experience is that many
designers find the idea of making a "web accessible" site an overwhelming
task and just another thing to add to their list of things to do.
The Web'AIM initiative group is holding an internal discussion on this topic
and would like to know:
1) What has been your experience in trying to make your sites accessible to
people with disabilities?
2) What factors motivate you or would motivate you to design with
accessibility in mind?

We encourage all of you to participate in this discussion!


From: Paul Bohman
Date: Mon, Mar 06 2000 11:15AM
Subject: Re: What motivates you?
← Previous message | Next message →

First I have a question: what wysiwyg editor were using? I use a combination
of two editors: Dreamweaver and Text Pad, which is a suped up version of
notepad (and not expensive either). I actually like Dreamweaver for most of
my editing, because it doesn't change the code behind your back. For intense
code editing, I use Text Pad, because Dreamweaver's text editor isn't as
sophisticated.
In reading your response, I gather that you are a strong advocate for Web
accesssibility. For you, the motivation is internal and it seems to be a
driving force. For most web developers, however, their driving force is
something else. Perhaps they are most interested in the site's appearance,
or the consulting money that they are getting, or the ability to use fancy
scripting. Everyone has their own primary motivation, but for most people
that primary motivation is not disability access.
I think it would be really helpful to try to figure out how to get the
average Web developer motivated to design accessibly. How do we get them
interested in the first place?
Paul Bohman

----- Original Message -----
From: Kathryn Wyeth < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: WebAIM accessibility forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2000 8:34 PM
Subject: RE: What motivates you?

What my experience/motivation is in making a site accessible:
I started doing web pages using a WYSIWYG editor until I realized what this
did to the html then began learning this. I work for a disability rights
organization and hate not walking the talk as they say.
We don't have allot of resources so mostly am self taught as are the rest of
folks who edit the pages. I have become somewhat the access police (less
nice words used sometimes) since point out access problems all the time and
have tried to generate some pride in that fact that our pages are
accessible. But I also keep learning new things about access myself. This
is a quickly changing world and there are no real "experts" in the
traditional sense.
One problem we have is that a lot of the "free" stuff, like search engines
and the like, can't be customized too much and is not accessible. We can't
always afford to buy things and I am learning as fast as I can re: doing
more in-house. So sometimes, there are features on the pages that I am not
happy about re: accessibility.
I have tried to go in and correct things on pages for folks affiliated with
us (at their request) to be met with resistance if access means making the
page look too different. For example, I took out table formatting on one
page that was only for visual effect and they decided to stay with the
original format because "people were used to it that way."
It sure is a lot easier to design access from the start than it is to go in
later and change things!
Some folks insist on doing a page first then maybe later doing a text only
version. Even when I try to talk them out of it. Too hard to learn about
access is the reason. In my learning, I sometimes have to undo things. But
that's part of learning. I hear tips and think it will help the site's
navigation then find out its a real access problem and go in and undo (last
time 409 times across 280 pages!!) what I spent hours doing. I would be
happy if someone told me up front about the problem but guess other people
are not.
I think one factor that motivates me is that good design = accessible
design. Our audience quite clearly includes people with disabilities for
one thing. I also really believe that making sure the site is accessible
makes it easier for everyone -you know, like ramps and door openers and
speech input and other formerly "special" design features.
There may also be a market niche here with accessible sites and the ability
to design them. There has been some big bucks and effort into disability
portals as late (i.e. wemedia, adaptz/halfthe world.com and the like) They
are having accessibility problems though. AOL getting sued is an
interesting development as are the recent congressional hearings re: how the
Americans with Disabilities Act applies to web sites.

Kathryn Wyeth
Michigan Disability Rights Coalition
www.copower.org
1(800)760-4600

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM accessibility forum
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]On Behalf Of James Merrill
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2000 1:52 PM
To: WebAIM accessibility forum
Subject: What motivates you?

Almost every Web designer is overwhelmed by the tasks of creating,
maintaining and updating their web sites. Our experience is that many
designers find the idea of making a "web accessible" site an overwhelming
task and just another thing to add to their list of things to do.
The Web'AIM initiative group is holding an internal discussion on this topic
and would like to know:
1) What has been your experience in trying to make your sites accessible to
people with disabilities?
2) What factors motivate you or would motivate you to design with
accessibility in mind?

We encourage all of you to participate in this discussion!



From: Kathryn Wyeth
Date: Mon, Mar 06 2000 4:25PM
Subject: Re: What motivates you?
← Previous message | Next message →

I was using a web design software from Corel. I now use Hot Metal 6.0 .
Hot Metal has an accessibility checker on it, just click and it checks your
code. It doesn't necessarily tell you everything but its nice! I am just
starting to use more of the features of this program.
I think some of the other possible motivation was at the end of my message--
the good design for one and the possibility of $$ and market niche the
other.
A recent congressional hearing seemed to favor an opinion that the ADA
applies to web sites as places of public accommodation. The folks who hire
the web designers are going to have to start specifying that they want
access or they risk being sued. (Not to mention missing a quite large
potential market.)
Colleges and those using any federal money have not only ADA to consider but
also title 504 of the rehabilitation act. It is only a matter of time
before they get taken to court over inaccessible on - line classes. They
could lose federal funding over this. Is this motivation? Could be.
Negative but may be needed.
Kathryn Wyeth
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM accessibility forum
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]On Behalf Of Paul Bohman
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2000 1:15 PM
To: WebAIM accessibility forum
Subject: Re: What motivates you?

First I have a question: what wysiwyg editor were using?
.....<snip>...
I think it would be really helpful to try to figure out how to get the
average Web developer motivated to design accessibly. How do we get them
interested in the first place?

From: Paul Bohman
Date: Mon, Mar 06 2000 10:35PM
Subject: Re: What motivates you?
← Previous message | Next message →

<snip> It is only a matter of time before they get taken to court over
inaccessible on - line classes. They could lose federal funding over this.
Is this motivation? Could be. Negative but may be needed. <end snip>
I agree that some legal "teeth" will probably be necessary in the end. The
situation is similar to the original implementation of the Americans with
Disabiliities Act (A.D.A.). The arguments against the A.D.A. often suggested
that people would "just do the right thing." The truth is that most of us
want to do the right thing, but don't often find it convenient to do. It is
much easier to let certain things slip by. Without some legal backing, a
minority of web designers will design with accessibility in mind, but the
rest of them will skip this important consideration.
Still, even without the legal backing, there are some elements that are
genuine motivators for the average web developer.
1. Alt tags, for example, increase the chances that a site will be indexed
correctly by the search engines. Every business knows how important it is to
be in the top 10 of the search engine rankings.
2. By designing for "universality", you increase the chances that your web
site will "look" good on all kinds of devices, including the all-important
Palm Pilots and other mobile devices. If you can design a site that looks
good in a "normal" browser _AND_ from the L.C.D. screen of an
Internet-enabled cell phone, then this is clearly an advantage for the site.
3. Also, the consumer likes to know that a company is supporting good causes
and "doing the right thing". When American Express combined with a nonprofit
agency for the Charge Against Hunger program, for example, not only were
they supporting a good cause, but they increased their revenues. Equal
access to the Web really is a civil rights issue. To make a comparison, I
think most of us would feel more comfortable buying something from a company
that says that it does not discriminate on the basis of race. Similarly, the
general public may be more inclined to support a company that says that its
Web site is equally accessible to all, regardless of disabilities.
There are other motivators too, but these are the ones that came to me as I
was writing this. I'd be interested to hear from anyone else if they have
other ideas of motivators for the "average" Web developer.
Paul Bohman

From: Crystal Allen
Date: Tue, Mar 07 2000 6:11PM
Subject: Re: What motivates you? and accessibility checks
← Previous message | Next message →

Kathryn,
I'm curious as to which accessibility features Hot Metal 6.0 checks for? I
assume alt tags and ... what other accesssibility features?
I'm not sure if you are aware of Bobby http://www.cast.org/bobby/ , another
tool that will (to a limited extent) check the accessibility of your site.
Bobby checks for text equivalents for all non-text elements, summaries of
graphs and charts, information conveyed with color is also available without
color, clearly identified changes in the natural language of a document,
content organized logically and clearly, and alternative content provided
for features (e.g., applets or plug-ins) that may not be supported.
Paul and Kathryn,
Good summary of the motivation and reasons for lack of motivation that web
designers may have. I would hope that people would want to design
accessibly just because it is a great service to others, but a little
legislation to back that up would work wonders.
Crystal Allen
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Kathryn Wyeth
Date: Tue, Mar 07 2000 7:09PM
Subject: Re: What motivates you? and accessibility checks
← Previous message | Next message →

Yes thanks, I use Bobby a lot - good prompt to learn more I think since so
many thing need to be checked manually.
Sometimes it is nice to catch things as you are writing too though.
I think the following link to an article is of Hotmetal 5. It may answer
your question though:
http://www.ariadne.ac.uk/issue9/web-access/

From: Paul Bohman
Date: Wed, Mar 08 2000 11:02AM
Subject: Re: What motivates you? and accessibility checks
← Previous message | Next message →

I just downloaded the trial version of HotMetal Pro 6. It looks like a good
program. I'm impressed that they even include _any_ feature that supports
accessible design. For the most part, I was happy with their implementation
of the accessibility check. The information that they give is good, but it
isn't perfect. For example, they tell you that you have to provide
alternative content for all tables. In reality, this is not a desirable
practice. Some tables are used for data purposes, which, after all, is the
real reason that tables exist in the first place. Even tables that are used
for formating can be made accessible.
The advice that HotMetal Pro dishes out is definitely welcome (since no one
else even attempts to do this), but it can give a slightly wrong impression
of what must be done to make a site accessible. I don't want everyone to
eliminate tables from their design. In fact, very few web developers will do
this, even if you tell them to. Some of HotMetal's advice is based on the
limitations of older assistive technologies. If you really want to make a
site backwords compatible for all of those old browsers, then the advice is
good. In real life, though, there is a middle ground that must be reached.
Although it's bad practice to make a web site that only works on the newest
technologies, I think that it is not the best idea to design web sites for
the "lowest common denominator." Many Web designers who have heard about
accessiblity have the false impression that an accessible site is text-only
and very boring. They don't realize that they can have an attractive site
that is also accessible. By telling them that they have to sacrifice the
quality of their presentation for accessibility, we will be fighting a
losing battle. They simply won't do it, nor should they.
So, although I congratulate HotMetal for their thoughtfulness, I also think
it is wise to exercise caution in implementing some of their suggestions.
Paul Bohman
Web Accessibility in Mind (Web-AIM)

----- Original Message -----
From: Kathryn Wyeth < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: WebAIM accessibility forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2000 7:09 PM
Subject: RE: What motivates you? and accessibility checks

Yes thanks, I use Bobby a lot - good prompt to learn more I think since so
many thing need to be checked manually.
Sometimes it is nice to catch things as you are writing too though.
I think the following link to an article is of Hotmetal 5. It may answer
your question though:
http://www.ariadne.ac.uk/issue9/web-access/
-

From: Kathryn Wyeth
Date: Wed, Mar 08 2000 12:41PM
Subject: Re: What motivates you? and accessibility checks
← Previous message | Next message →

You are right that at this time, I don't think anyone can rely solely on any
one software package to design accessible sites. Hotmetal is the only
software I know of that tries to address access though.
Good point on tables too! I have discovered that tables can be made
accessible! I am working on making a table accessible using info from WIA.
It is still recommended by standards though that tables not be used for
formatting. I have noticed that many sites do rely on tables for visual
effect. I have seen reference to style sheets being used for layout instead
of tables but know that when I have tried this, I have problems with all
types of browsers supporting the techniques. There is some work to do in
this area still obviously.
Kathryn

From: Paul Bohman
Date: Wed, Mar 08 2000 2:24PM
Subject: Re: What motivates you? and accessibility checks
← Previous message | Next message →

snip> It is still recommended by standards though that tables not be used
for
formatting. <end snip>
The actual guideline says this: "5.3 Do not use tables for layout unless the
table makes sense when linearized."
For the most part, what this means is that the table needs to make sense if
you read the table one cell at a time starting with the top left cell and
proceeding across the row until the end, then going to row two and reading
each cell. However, some of the older screen readers were incapable of
reading tables correctly. They would read from left to right, ignoring the
fact the the content was in separate cells. It would be like putting a piece
of paper on the screen and reading each line all the way across the screen,
then moving the paper down and reading the next line. This renders the
content in an unintelligible fashion. For the most part, though, current
technologies (even screen readers) have no trouble reading tables. Where you
can get into trouble is if you have really complex table structures with
cells that span columns in unusual ways, etc. Nested tables (tables inside
of tables) are not always bad, but you have to be careful with them too.
Screen readers will usually read the entire contents of a cell (including
any nested tables) before moving on to the next cell. If this is how you
want your content to be read, then you're probably ok.
Still, things would be much better if current browsers supported style sheet
positioning better. Internet Explorer does quite a nice job. Netscape
doesn't. In fact, pages become more INaccessable in Netscape when style
sheet positioning is used because you can't use the tab key to navigate the
page anymore. In my opinion this is a fatal flaw which I cannot ignore, so I
do not yet use style sheet positioning. I do use tables, but only because I
don't think there is a viable alternative at this point, due to lack of
browser support. I look forward to the day when I can use them "without
shame."
When I use tables for layout, I give the table a title and a summary. The
title will show up as a visible "tooltip" when the mouse runs over the
table. In the table SUMMARY I simply say "table used for layout" or
something similar. The TITLE might say something like "Main content of page"
or "navigation links" or similar. The summary attribute remains invisible.
Here is some sample code:
<table title="Main Navigation Menu" summary="Table used for layout"
border="0">

From: Prof Norm Coombs
Date: Wed, Mar 08 2000 3:39PM
Subject: Re: What motivates you? and accessibility checks
← Previous message | Next message →

I strongly believe that the best authoring tools are those which DO NOT put
in a ton of extraneous code but keep it simple, like HomeSite or even
Notepad which many web designers use. Then you handle your own access
code, but the basic page is kept simple in coding and easy to understand.
Norman
At 02:41 PM 3/8/00 -0500, you wrote:
>You are right that at this time, I don't think anyone can rely solely on any
>one software package to design accessible sites. Hotmetal is the only
>software I know of that tries to address access though.
>
>Good point on tables too! I have discovered that tables can be made
>accessible! I am working on making a table accessible using info from WIA.
>
>It is still recommended by standards though that tables not be used for
>formatting. I have noticed that many sites do rely on tables for visual
>effect. I have seen reference to style sheets being used for layout instead
>of tables but know that when I have tried this, I have problems with all
>types of browsers supporting the techniques. There is some work to do in
>this area still obviously.
>
>Kathryn
>
>
>

From: Prof Norm Coombs
Date: Wed, Mar 08 2000 3:48PM
Subject: Re: What motivates me?
← Previous message | Next message →

If web masters could grasp ONE simple truth, most would take the bother.
For example:
I am totally blind. When I was a kid groceries were sold in friendly
corner stores. Mom could send me there to get butter, sugar and whatever.
The owner or a clerk at the cash register got the stuff and sold it to me.
In fact, in those days, most people didn't get their groceries but asked
the clerk.
With the supermarket, I am now handicapped. No one at the cash register
can leave their post to get my items. I cannot go to the store even when I
am out of food. If I can't get a friend I am in bad luck. Even if I pay a
taxi to take me to the supermarket, what then? The driver won't shop for
me? I go hungry or more likely eat EVEN MORE peanutbutter!
Now we have homegrocer.com in some places. Here is a way I can become a
REAL HUMAN and buy food and eat! I go to their site and, guess what? I
can't handle it with a screen reader. Here was the chance for me to become
human again and I am ROBBED! Yes, it feels like I have been mugged and
left bleeding on the road. I could hav gained independence and become a
real person. Instead, I remain handicapped!!!
If you were the responsible web master and had the power to make such a
giant change in someone's life, what would you do?
"too much bother. . let him be handicapped that's all he's worth' . .
Or "Wow what a fantastic opportunity I have to make a significant impact on
the life of another person???????
Norman Coombs, Ph.D.
At 12:52 PM 3/8/00 -0700, you wrote:
> I am intrigued with the discussions on motivation. I am not a web
>developer, yet I think I can still contribute to this discussion since I
>think we are really talking about the process of change; a common
>experience for us all. First, I must say that I enjoy reading what others
>have posted on this topic, in part because I do think folks operate quite
>differently one from another. It is good for WebAIM to consider a range of
>behavior when designing & implementing their systems-change project. I
>think there is incredible value in hearing from people with varied
>experiences in motivation and the process of change. Allow me to bend your
>ear a bit on my own process of motivation and change. In it's crudest form
>I believe motivation can be divided into 2 camps, the carrot and the stick.
>It is an unfortunate fact that data on human behavior supports the fact
>that people make change faster when punishment looms, rather than when they
>could get rewarded in some way (either by doing something nice because it's
>the right thing to do [internal motivation] or getting other rewards such
>as the adoration of others or some monetary reward [external motivation]).
> As I reflect on times I needed to change something in my
>professional practice I do best when the carrot is pretty salient or the
>stick is perceived to be present. Allow me to elaborate on those thoughts
>from personal examples. First, let me discuss the saliency of the carrot.
>If I have something tangible I am working toward, I typically get the job
>done. An example would be that if I am asked to consult for another
>project - I do a good job and within timelines. Of course here the carrot
>is pretty salient for me since consultation typically involves added salary
>or resources of some kind. However, if the carrot isn't tangible (e.g., I
>WANT to do something because I KNOW it would be good for me in some way) I
>tend to wait for opportunities to present themselves to get the job done.
>True to form, other more important projects inevitably pop up which put-off
>what I WANT to do even more. This "Back-Burner" factor is true for me even
>when I know I NEED to do something (just ask anyone who has seen my messy
>office - I am motivated to get it straightened, but don't give myself the
>time to do it). On the other hand, if a stick is present (real or
>imagined) I also tend to get the job done. If my supervisor asks/tells me
>to do something even if I can't see the imminent stick, I tend to make
>available whatever time is necessary to complete the task. The stick may
>be real (e.g., do this or you're fired) or I could perceive that it is
>somewhere in the background (e.g., if I don't do this, it'll come back to
>me on my evaluation or some future promotion). So to summarize, I am most
>motivated when the carrot is salient, or the stick is perceived to be
>present. I don't have the best record of change when left to my own good
>intentions. I know it's a sad confession to make, but for me it's true.
>Even when it comes to things that I feel strongly about (e.g., my recycle
>projects at home) I tend to put them off.
> So what in the world does this have to do with web accessibility?
>I believe that if we want web developers to attend to designing with
>accessibility in mind, we must look at administrative support for the
>practice. It will be these administrators that provide salient carrots or
>create the perception of the stick. Even with the best of intentions, I
>think the quickest way to get change is to get support from above. Of
>course this then begs the question, what motivates the supervisor? My
>answer, predictably, would be the same. Thus at the end of this tall tale
>is the need for central administrators in postsecondary education to be
>committed to the needed changes and, in the words of Jean-Luc "Make it
>happen". Well, that's the end of my rambling thoughts for now. I may
>think a bit more and chime back in at a later date.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>Cyndi Rowland, Ph.D.
>Director, Collaborative Early Childhood Special Education Program
>Center for Persons with Disabilities
>6800 University Blvd.
>Utah State University
>Logan, Utah 84322-6800
>(435) 797-3381
>FAX (435) 797-2044
>
>
>
>

From: Cyndi Rowland
Date: Wed, Mar 08 2000 4:57PM
Subject: Re: What motivates me?
← Previous message | Next message →

Excellent example Norm,
I know we want to instill exactly that type of motivation. The
motivation to do the right thing. Of course we struggle with how to go
about this in a way that is effective. Our staff was just talking today
about the USU web folks that we trained in December. We are going to try
to follow up with each one's URL (if we can get them) to see how they are
doing on accessibility. To be frank, we will be surprised if there has
been much change in the group. Maybe we planted a seed (that thought was
provided by Crystal), maybe there has been change or they will reflect it
in future work? I worry/struggle with the thought that folks take this
fabulous information and just put it on the back burner, not thinking of
your central focus Norm; that they could positively affect the quality of
someone's LIFE. I don't know what could be more important than that!
Perhaps in our WebAIM training we need to increase the real life anecdotes,
such as yours, to drive the point home all throughout. Of course I'll wait
to see the data, but I have this hunch . . .
The need to identify webmaster motivation for change becomes more
clear each day. I think it is because of the impact it can have. I'd like
to share a story as well, although it won't be new to you Norm. Just
yesterday Paul and I met with a new student hire to our project. He is
blind and indicated to us that he struggles to get at web materials that
support his coursework. ( I won't even go into some of the JAWS stuff here
- Yikes!). I asked him how many of his professors use the web to support
their coursework. He indicated ALL OF THEM; pretty good for undergraduate
courses. I asked, "then how do you get this information"? He said, he
needed it placed on tape or he would need to get a reader. In other words,
he is always behind AND he is having to work twice as hard just to GET TO
THE CONTENT. At some level I know that this happens everyday. At another
level, when confronted with the reality of what the disabled consumer faces
on a daily basis I am appalled. Well enough of my brief hissey-fit. Our
WebAIM team wants to make sure that we can put in place a system where
change is really going to take place. There is still so much to figure out
on motivating the webmasters.
Thanks for listening
Cyndi
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cyndi Rowland, Ph.D.
Director, Collaborative Early Childhood Special Education Program
Center for Persons with Disabilities
6800 University Blvd.
Utah State University
Logan, Utah 84322-6800
(435) 797-3381
FAX (435) 797-2044

From: Prof Norm Coombs
Date: Wed, Mar 08 2000 4:05PM
Subject: Re: What motivates you? and accessibility checks
← Previous message | Next message →

Tables aren't bad depending . . .
even with an old browser if the screen reader reads left to right it can
make sense. Look at our home page: http://www.rit.edu/~easi
even where there 2 or 3 links across the page, anyone used to the web would
guess these were links side by side. For a simple layout like this no
problem.
Even if you have a table like:
hotel 2 nights $100 $200
That reads easily
More of a problem would be
hotel $100
$100 $200
Even without headers, you might guess in the second example by the layout
that there were 2 nights totaling $200. By screen reader unless I examine
it carefully, I don't know that the 2 $100s are under each other. Seeing
them under each other, you can make some assumptions. Just hearing it, for
all I would know is that the $100 on the second line is right under the
hotel.
So long as each cell has one line in it all across and none have 2 lines,
the logic can be guessed. When some cells have 2 items under each other,
it is confusing.
In windows 3.0 under multimedia or some such item, there was an item called
sound record, but on the screen it was
sound
recorder
Hope this clarifies the nature of the problem a little.
Norm



At 02:24 PM 3/8/00 -0700, you wrote:
><snip> It is still recommended by standards though that tables not be used
>for
>formatting. <end snip>
>
>The actual guideline says this: "5.3 Do not use tables for layout unless the
>table makes sense when linearized."
>
>For the most part, what this means is that the table needs to make sense if
>you read the table one cell at a time starting with the top left cell and
>proceeding across the row until the end, then going to row two and reading
>each cell. However, some of the older screen readers were incapable of
>reading tables correctly. They would read from left to right, ignoring the
>fact the the content was in separate cells. It would be like putting a piece
>of paper on the screen and reading each line all the way across the screen,
>then moving the paper down and reading the next line. This renders the
>content in an unintelligible fashion. For the most part, though, current
>technologies (even screen readers) have no trouble reading tables. Where you
>can get into trouble is if you have really complex table structures with
>cells that span columns in unusual ways, etc. Nested tables (tables inside
>of tables) are not always bad, but you have to be careful with them too.
>Screen readers will usually read the entire contents of a cell (including
>any nested tables) before moving on to the next cell. If this is how you
>want your content to be read, then you're probably ok.
>
>Still, things would be much better if current browsers supported style sheet
>positioning better. Internet Explorer does quite a nice job. Netscape
>doesn't. In fact, pages become more INaccessable in Netscape when style
>sheet positioning is used because you can't use the tab key to navigate the
>page anymore. In my opinion this is a fatal flaw which I cannot ignore, so I
>do not yet use style sheet positioning. I do use tables, but only because I
>don't think there is a viable alternative at this point, due to lack of
>browser support. I look forward to the day when I can use them "without
>shame."
>
>When I use tables for layout, I give the table a title and a summary. The
>title will show up as a visible "tooltip" when the mouse runs over the
>table. In the table SUMMARY I simply say "table used for layout" or
>something similar. The TITLE might say something like "Main content of page"
>or "navigation links" or similar. The summary attribute remains invisible.
>
>Here is some sample code:
><table title="Main Navigation Menu" summary="Table used for layout"
>border="0">
>
>
>

From: Daren Olson
Date: Thu, Mar 09 2000 9:31AM
Subject: What motivates.
← Previous message | No next message

Here's my two cents on the issue of motivation as it relates to web
accessibility. For those of you who know me, it's no secret that I'm an
admirer of Richard Clark's work on motivation. So, the ideas I'll
present here on motivation come mainly from him and are not my own.
First, I have to admit that I'm not considering biological issues in
motivation here (food, sleep, sex, safety, etc.). Rather, I'll focus on
motivational issues that arise when all of our basic needs are met.
From what I understand of Clark's writings, motivation depends on two
things: commitment and effort. Thus, the acronym for his CANE model of
motivation stands for "Commitment And Necessary Effort." Simply put,
commitment precedes effort. This means that no one will put any effort
into doing anything unless they decide to commit to it first. This
commitment depends upon three factors: control values, emotion or mood,
and personal agency. Control values are the perceptions by the worker
that his or her efforts will increase our personal control or
effectiveness. The emotional reactions the worker has toward a work goal
must be positive (or even neutral). Personal agency relates to beliefs
the worker has that he or she has the ability to do the work and that
the work environment and other contextual factors will facilitate goal
achievement.
So, in order to make a commitment, the following questions must be
answered positively:
1) Will this commitment make me more effective? (Control values)
2) Do I feel like it? (Emotion or mood)
3) Can I do it? Will I be permitted to do it? (Personal agency)
If the worker can answer yes to all of these questions, they are primed
to make a commitment to work towards the goal. It should be noted that
if even one of these questions is answered negatively, commitment to the
goal will not occur.
Once commitment is attained, a certain level of effort must be dedicated
to doing the work required. Very often, this means new knowledge must
be created or new skills developed before the goal can be achieved. If
the worker recognizes this and is willing to work to get the knowledge
and skills, then it is more likely that the goal will be reached. If
the worker is convinced that he or she cannot get this knowledge or
learn the skills, their "personal agency" or self-efficacy sinks to
zero, which means they are no longer committed to the work goal and will
actively avoid the goal. However, while some people may be committed to
a goal and believe that they can do the work, they have actually
underestimated the knowledge and skill necessary to achieve the goal.
These people are overconfident in their own abilities and, consequently,
will rely on their established abilities, skills, and problem solving
processes. Because they think they can do it all with what they've
already got, they do not put the necessary effort into learning what
they need to achieve the goal. Often these people are blinded to
situations in which their own knowledge and skills are inadequate--they
gloss over certain details which, in the end, prevent successful
completion of the goal. What happens in the end? They attribute the lack
of success to someone else or some other circumstance. After all, how
could they be responsible?
So how does all of this relate to web accessibility? First, in order to
motivate webmasters, and anybody else involved in creating web-related
materials, we must first gain commitment to the task of making the
content accessible. This means we have to get a positive answer to
those questions of control value, emotion or mood, and personal agency.
Let's examine these questions now as a typical webmaster might see them.
1) Will this commitment make me more effective? (Control values)
Typical response: "No. I don't think this will make a big difference in
the services I provide to the majority of users. In fact, I think it
will make my web site less attractive and harder to use for
non-handicapped users."
Needed response: "Yes. In the end, maintaining an accessible site is
easier because it's design is consistent and enables people to navigate
and access the information they seek. They won't need to rely on me as
much to get what they need. Besides, I will gain a huge advantage over
my competitors because my web site is accessible. Experts agree that the
changes I make to accommodate persons with disabilities actually benefit
all users. Universal design will make my site more attractive and
easier to use for everyone."
2) Do I feel like it? (Emotion or mood)
Typical response: "Absolutely not. I'm sick of this web site! I already
put in overtime to get the thing where it is today. Now you want me to
add work on top of that?! Nobody understands or appreciates the work I
do now, so why would I want to put in all this time to do something they
will ignore me for doing anyway? I've been stuck in this back room all
week long and I haven't seen the sun since Monday! When will this week
end?!"
Needed response: "Oh, yeah! I dig this kind of stuff! I enjoy the
challenge of making my web site hum like a finely tuned Ferrari. People
can't stop raving about how good the site works. Gosh, I feel so
appreciated! But that really doesn't matter much too me in this case,
because I feel that this accessibility issue is important for other
reasons. I want to do this because it's the right thing to do and will
make a huge impact in the lives of my clients. It kind of makes me feel
good about myself to know that I'm helping make it possible for people
to become independent users of this web site."
3) Can I do it? Will I be permitted to do it? (Personal agency)
Typical response: "There's no way I can do this. First of all, I don't
know the first thing about making sites accessible. Second, even if I
thought this was important, I don't think my supervisor is going to want
me taking all this time to make changes on a site that already seems to
be meeting the needs of a majority of our clients. Third, there's no way
they are going to spend money on books or training or computer software
to help me make the site accessible."
Needed response: "I think it's definitely something I can do. I may not
know how to make the site accessible now, but there are plenty of
resources available for free that can help me learn what I need to get
the job done. I've already discussed this with my supervisor and talked
about the benefits of doing this. She's convinced this is something we
should do, not only because it's the right thing to do, but also because
it will provide a better experience for all our clients. We've set a few
goals to get us started and budgeted the necessary time and resources to
accomplish them. It looks like I've got green lights all the way home on
this one."
The other thing that needs to be addressed is the issue of effort. For
those who recognize the knowledge and skills needed to reach the goal of
an accessible web site, all that is needed is access to the necessary
information and training. The underconfident webmasters need support in
the form of small, doable goals that will eventually lead to full
accessibility. As they experience success, their confidence or
self-efficacy will increase, as will their commitment and effort to
future goals. The overconfident, however, must be dealt with in a
slightly different manner. They must first be shown that they actually
do not have the knowledge and skill necessary to reach the goal. They
must understand that their old approaches to solving the problem will
not work and that they are responsible (at least in part) for this lack
of success. Only then will they be open to learning the knowledge and
skills required to create and maintain an accessible web site. For both
underconfident and overconfident workers, Clark says the best way to
help them is to "focus feedback on the way that the task is being
pursued, and not on the person's ability." This means that for
overconfident people, we should focus on the process and not the task
results. If there are no results, they will often project responsibility
to someone or something else. By focusing on strategy instead of
statistics, there is less blaming and more examination of ways to
achieve the goal.
Well, even though this has been a long response, I must admit that I
really haven't done all of Clark's ideas justice here. Nevertheless, I
think I've covered the basics in enough detail to illuminate how they
apply to the issues of web accessibility (am I overconfident here?).
Now it's up to you to think about this stuff and determine for
yourselves if this makes sense or not. I hope this dialogue on
motivation continues, because I believe it strikes at the very heart of
the problem--lack of commitment and effort to reach the goals of web
accessibility.
Daren Olson