Thread Subject: Re: Group D: 22(d) Readable without stylesheets

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From: Gregg Vanderheiden
Date: Fri, Dec 01 2006 2:35 PM

Actually it is the other way around.

If the page would be inaccessible to AT if you turned CSS off then you can't
have CSS in the set of technologies you rely on to make the page conform.



Gregg
-- ------------------------------
Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> Of Michael R. Burks
> Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 2:15 PM
> To: 'TEITAC Web/Software Subcommittee'
> Subject: Re: [teitac-websoftware] Group D: 22(d) Readable
> without stylesheets
>
> Jared Smith wrote:
> <blockquote>
> Maybe I'm interpreting baselines incorrectly (imagine that?),
> but if a page uses CSS and is inaccessible with them turned
> off, then CSS MUST be in the baseline because it's a
> required technology, right? So if CSS is in the baseline, is
> there no contingency for ensuring that the page is accessible
> if those styles are disabled or overridden by user styles
> (which is essentially the same as turning them off)? If this
> is the case, this could result in big issues </blockquote>
>
> John M. Slatin
> <blockquote>
> If CSS is in the baseline, then it can be "relied upon" (in WCAG 2.0
> parlance) and the content need not work if CSS is not
> available; conformance may still be claimed. But success
> criterion 1.3.1 requires that "information and relationships
> conveyed through presentation can be programmatically
> determined, and notification of changes in these is available
> to user agents, including assistive technologies." This is
> meant to ensure that information and relationships are
> available even if the presentation changes, e.g., through use
> of an alternative style sheet or through transposition to a
> different sensory modality (e.g., from text to (synthetic) speech).
>
> Hope that helps.
> John
> </blockquote>
>
> All,
>
> I have a serious problem with the inclusion of Baseline in
> this discussion.
> It seems to me that this is a way that accessible design can
> be excluded by simply saying "This or that is not in the
> baseline" I do NOT believe baseline should have any place in
> 508. Period. It is quite possible I am misunderstanding
> baseline and concept it represents but if I am please point
> me to something that will re educate me.
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
> Mike Burks
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> Of Slatin, John M
> Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 2:52 PM
> To: TEITAC Web/Software Subcommittee
> Subject: Re: [teitac-websoftware] Group D: 22(d) Readable
> without stylesheets
>
> Jared Smith wrote:
> <blockquote>
> Maybe I'm interpreting baselines incorrectly (imagine that?),
> but if a page uses CSS and is inaccessible with them turned
> off, then CSS MUST be in the baseline because it's a
> required technology, right? So if CSS is in the baseline, is
> there no contingency for ensuring that the page is accessible
> if those styles are disabled or overridden by user styles
> (which is essentially the same as turning them off)? If this
> is the case, this could result in big issues </blockquote>
>
> If CSS is in the baseline, then it can be "relied upon" (in WCAG 2.0
> parlance) and the content need not work if CSS is not
> available; conformance may still be claimed. But success
> criterion 1.3.1 requires that "information and relationships
> conveyed through presentation can be programmatically
> determined, and notification of changes in these is available
> to user agents, including assistive technologies." This is
> meant to ensure that information and relationships are
> available even if the presentation changes, e.g., through use
> of an alternative style sheet or through transposition to a
> different sensory modality (e.g., from text to (synthetic) speech).
>
> Hope that helps.
> John
>
> "Good design is accessible design."
>
> Dr. John M. Slatin, Director
> Accessibility Institute
> University of Texas at Austin
> FAC 248C
> 1 University Station G9600
> Austin, TX 78712
> ph 512-495-4288, fax 512-495-4524
> email = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Web http://www.utexas.edu/research/accessibility
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> Of Jared Smith
> Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 12:37 PM
> To: TEITAC Web/Software Subcommittee
> Subject: Re: [teitac-websoftware] Group D: 22(d) Readable
> without stylesheets
>
>
> On 11/29/06, Andi Snow-Weaver < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> > Current wording: Documents shall be organized so they are readable
> > without requiring an associated style sheet.
>
> I've always struggled with this guideline. I don't think I've
> ever seen a web page that is not 'readable' with styles
> disabled. And is 'styles'
> just CSS or is it also <font> tags, layout tables, and such?
> I think the intention is, as Jonathan notes, that the reading
> and navigation order and structure of the content is logical
> and operable when styles are disabled. Also, the word
> 'readable' is quite different from 'understandable',
> 'logical', and 'operable'. I can read a site in German or
> Elvish, but it won't be very accessible to me.
>
> And to be a bit technical, you never really disable all style
> sheets, you just revert to the browser default styles.
>
> > This is not a requirement in WCAG 2.0 because it is a
> baseline issue.
> > If CSS is in your baseline, then the page doesn't have to work with
> > style sheets disabled. If CSS is not in your baseline, then it does.
>
> Perhaps this is a bit off topic...
> Maybe I'm interpreting baselines incorrectly (imagine that?),
> but if a page uses CSS and is inaccessible with them turned
> off, then CSS MUST be in the baseline because it's a
> required technology, right? So if CSS is in the baseline, is
> there no contingency for ensuring that the page is accessible
> if those styles are disabled or overridden by user styles
> (which is essentially the same as turning them off)? If this
> is the case, this could result in big issues for many users
> that require user styles or even prefer no styles - the
> develop simply says that
> *this* CSS is required and if it doesn't work for you, too bad.
>
> Jared Smith
>

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