Thread Subject: Re: Bypassing content.

From: Peter Wallack
Date: Wed, Jun 13 2007 4:50 PM

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And I would have to keep on defending that repeatedly with every
customer until I convince every automated checker to accept my solution?

Peter Wallack
Accessibility Program Director
Oracle Corporation



Lybarger, Barbara (MOD) wrote:
> It doesn't say that at all. It only says whatever method the programmer
> uses has to be determinable. A perfect defense to a claim that a
> particular developer's code doesn't match the code a particular
> automated code checker uses would be that the code used is X (i.e. it's
> programmatically determinable) and it works.
>
> Barbara Lybarger
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of David
> Poehlman
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 6:02 PM
> To: TEITAC Web/Software Subcommittee
> Subject: Re: [teitac-websoftware] Bypassing content.
>
> we could provide techniques?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom Brett" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: "'TEITAC Web/Software Subcommittee'"
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 8:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [teitac-websoftware] Bypassing content.
>
>
> I must be missing something. To be programmatically determinable it
> would
> require (so that code validators can determine if the skip nav exits)
> would
> mean that there would need to be standard coding that every developer
> uses,
> right? This means that a developer would not be able to use something
> creative in the skip nav. They would be required to use the same coding
> regardless of where they are coding (OPM, GSA, Interior, etc).
>
>
>
> We would be developing coding standards beyond Section 508 if we do
> this.
> We would be dictating to the developer how to code the page.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Tom Brett
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Peter
> Wallack
> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 8:30 PM
> To: TEITAC Web/Software Subcommittee
> Subject: Re: [teitac-websoftware] Bypassing content.
>
>
>
> I'd buy that!
>
>
>
> Peter Wallack
> Accessibility Program Director
> Oracle Corporation
>
>
>
> David Poehlman wrote:
>
> I almost like this but would change it slightly thus:
>
> Web pages shall provide a visible method that is programmatically
> determinable to provide a means for navigation among blocks of content.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Hoffman, Allen" <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: "TEITAC Web/Software Subcommittee"
> <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 4:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [teitac-websoftware] Bypassing content.
>
>
> The problem with skip-nav as is is that it is difficult to test in an
> automated fashion as unless a consistent text is used, automated tools
> have a hard time evaluating the tab order and functionality of the page
> to shorten it effectively.
>
> So:
>
> how about:
>
> Web pages shall provide a visible method that is programmatically
> determinable to skip repetitive navigation and blocks of content.
>
> Sufficient techniques may include:
>
> use of anchor tags in HTML.
> example should be inserted.
> Use of scripting to make links visible when tabbed to.
> example...
> Use of tables of contents in non-HTML formats.
> example...
> use of scripting to appropriate direct focus dependent upon inputs.
> example... yeah right.
> use of consistent content block mark up such has headers.
> example...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Allen Hoffman -- = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; v: 202-447-0303
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
> Barrett, Don
> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 4:17 PM
> To: TEITAC Web/Software Subcommittee
> Subject: Re: [teitac-websoftware] Bypassing content.
>
> We have accepted frames, headings, and skip nav links as methods of
> meeting the standard. All the standard has required is a method to skip
> repetitive nav links; it's been very generic and very helpful.
>
>
> Don Barrett
> Section 508 Coordinator
> U.S. Department of Education
> (202)-205-8245
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Andrew
> Kirkpatrick
> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 4:12 PM
> To: TEITAC Web/Software Subcommittee
> Subject: Re: [teitac-websoftware] Bypassing content.
>
> The skip nav link offers very poor control - you get one option and that
> is to move focus to where the link is and nowhere else.
> AWK
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
> Hoffman, Allen
> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 4:08 PM
> To: TEITAC Web/Software Subcommittee
> Subject: Re: [teitac-websoftware] Bypassing content.
>
> I concur with Andrew, but.
>
> The skip-nav requirement is intended to allow the end-user more
> control of directing the focus. if an application allows focus to be
> moved without inefficient keyboard or other driving, then it meets the
>
>
>
>
>
> standard already.
>
>
>
> Allen Hoffman -- = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; v: 202-447-0303
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
> Andrew Kirkpatrick
> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 3:48 PM
> To: TEITAC Web/Software Subcommittee
> Subject: Re: [teitac-websoftware] Bypassing content.
>
> Exactly. The concept of the skip link is a possible success
> technique, but we should not skew the requirement to eliminate other
> success techniques that people are able to use presently.
> AWK
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>
>
> Behalf Of David
>
>
>
> Poehlman
> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 3:45 PM
> To: TEITAC Web/Software Subcommittee; Katie Haritos-Shea
> Subject: Re: [teitac-websoftware] Bypassing content.
>
> I just know there is already methodology for dealing with
>
>
> this without
>
>
>
> using a special link though.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Wallack" <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: "Katie Haritos-Shea" <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >; "TEITAC
>
>
> Web/Software
>
>
>
> Subcommittee" <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 11:52 AM
> Subject: Re: [teitac-websoftware] Bypassing content.
>
>
> I'd argue that it's useful far beyond that. Any keyboard-only user,
> such as a 'power user', would appreciate the feature. I believe it
> needs to be visible until User Agents provide a standard
>
>
> mechanism to
>
>
> invoke it.
>
> Peter Wallack
> Accessibility Program Director
> Oracle Corporation
>
> Katie Haritos-Shea wrote:
> Mike,
>
> The visible skip nav is also useful for persons with
>
>
> limited mobility,
>
>
>
> and the AT that they use. In that case the skip nav link must be
> visible.
>
> Katie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Langum, Michael J" <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Sent: Jun 12, 2007 8:21 AM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: Re: [teitac-websoftware] Bypassing content.
>
>
> AWK wrote:
> "An invisible skip link wouldn't satisfy the Functional
>
>
> perfomance
>
>
> criteria,. . ."
>
> Have I missed something?
>
> I thought the "function" of the "skip link" was to allow
>
>
> users of AT
>
>
> to skip past banners, and standard navigation elements so that they
> could quickly and easily get to the main content of a page. Since
> sighted users can achieve the same "function" by simply
>
>
> examining the
>
>
> page and choosing to begin reading at whatever point they wish (and
> hence don't rely on the "skip link"), I don't see how an "invisible
> skip link wouldn't satisfy the Functional performance criteria."
>
> -- Mike Langum
> Asst. Webmaster, WWW.OPM.GOV
> U.S. Office of Personnel Management
>
>
>

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