Thread Subject: Re: Working our way to common ground.
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From: Gregg Vanderheiden
Date: Tue, Jul 03 2007 10:35 AM
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In the end, what we have is indeed goals pitted against the reality of what
technologies we have (from past, present and future). And in the end we
need to say specifically what we need to do.
But the list starts with upper level goals and works our way down so we can
see what we have or don't have at the bottom.
Starting with your group 1 comments
PJ: If a person is deaf, then why have text conversation only where a phone
GV: Where did you see anything that limited text conversation to places
where there were phones? The items below only said that, if there is a
phone that people who can talk are allowed to use, then people who are deaf
should be ABLE TO (not forced to) make a call from that phone or by
attaching something to the phone.
PJ: This seems like a carry-over from "old world" thinking where the user's
devices were required to interconnect with a physical telephone or telephone
line. Such a requirement does not exist with the IP world, as a user could
be connected anywhere. If my employer provides a wireless network and I
have a wireless text-capable device, should I not be able to use that
anywhere in the building?
GV: Yes you should. And the items below do not restrict this in any way.
But I would ask:
1) "If a person who speaks is able to use the phone in the lobby (so
they don't have to make a long distance call to call upstairs) shouldn't a
deaf person be able to ?
2) If a person is deaf and cannot afford a mobile phone, shouldn't
they be able to use the free phones that are available for voice users?
3) If a person is deaf and visiting a remote office, should they not
be able to use the phones there? (rather than incur charges on their
personal phone - or have to wait half a day to get authorization from a busy
system administrator (who must check with home office for authorization to
connect foreign devices) before they can connect their personal device to
There are always cases where the deaf person has no problem using their
personal device (that they or their company pays for). And for those people
we do not need regulations - and the proposed regulations do not affect
them. But for the rest, for the less well connected, for the majority that
are unemployed (section 255 or the public under 508) we need to be sure that
access is available.
PJ: Likewise, could I not use a text device at my desk or on a PC completely
independent of a voice device? Should I be forced to interface my text
device with a telephone?
GV: "Yes you certainly could" is the answer to both questions. And nowhere
is anyone preventing a person from using those options. So I'm not sure
where the question is coming from. Did you see something below that would
prevent you from doing what you liked?
Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Paul E. Jones
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 8:15 AM
To: TEITAC Telecommunications Subcommittee
Subject: Re: [teitac-telecom] Working our way to common ground.
I really don't know how to comment on these different groups, since it seems
to have goals and objectives pitted against specific technologies. Given
what prompted this e-mail, I think it's probably important to first step
back and only focus on the high-level objectives. Then, we can discuss more
specific details. (But, I don't think specific protocols should ever be
specified in the law, since it means the law will either restrict the
industry as a side consequence or it will allow people to side-step the law
entirely, depending on it gets interpreted.)
Group 1 seems to present the desired objectives. So, let me comment the
If a person is deaf, then why have text conversation only where a phone
exists? This seems like a carry-over from "old world" thinking where the
user's devices were required to interconnect with a physical telephone or
telephone line. Such a requirement does not exist with the IP world, as a
user could be connected anywhere. If my employer provides a wireless
network and I have a wireless text-capable device, should I not be able to
use that anywhere in the building? Likewise, could I not use a text device
at my desk or on a PC completely independent of a voice device? Should I be
forced to interface my text device with a telephone?
----- Original Message -----
From: Gregg Vanderheiden <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: 'TEITAC Telecommunications Subcommittee'
<mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 1:53 PM
Subject: [teitac-telecom] Working our way to common ground.
Below is a list of statements that I think we should walk down to find out
where we are all together and where we have differences.
I think it will be much easier to find final wording if we can figure out
what our agreements and differences are -- and then work on ways to address
I am seeing too many proposals that break something when trying to fix
something else -- or that seem to fix the wrong thing. We won't get far
I would suggest we just ask for objections to the following statements - and
see how many we have consensus on - then work on the rest.
This will also help remind those less familiar with all of the aspects we
I suspect we can go through the first items pretty quickly and will find our
differences down lower.
GROUP 1 Statements
1. People who are DEAF OR HARD OF HEARING
* should have reliable text conversation wherever people who speak and
hear have reliable voice conversation, either directly or via AT.
2. People who are DEAF AND CAN SPEAK
* should be able to use speech to send and text to receive
communication (either simultanously or alternately), either directly or via
3. People who are HARD OF HEARING
* should be able to use speech to send and speech and text together to
receive communication (either simultanously or alternately), either directly
or via AT.
4. People who CAN HEAR BUT CANNOT SPEAK OR SPEAK CLEARLY
* should be able to to use speech to receive and speech and text
together to send communication (either simultanously or alternately), either
directly or via AT.
5. People WITH DISABILITIES
* should not have to pay more to make phone calls than people without
disabilities. (Cost of AT hardware not included.)
GROUP 2 Statements
6. TTY (Baudot/TIA-825) is the only current method supported
universally in the US for text conversation on the PSTN
7. In the evolving PUBLIC IP phone system - we want to use Text Data
not TTY (or other ) audio tones to convey text.
8. IM is a valuable means of communication for everyone but particulaly
for people who are deaf.
9. IM is not real-time text. It is often near-realtime messaging.
But it is messaging. And it can be delayed in addition to normal messaging
delay (until 'enter').
10. Real-time conversation and IM are both valuable (to all
communicators) but fill different needs.
* IM is sometimes superior to real-time conversation.
* Other times real-time conversation is superior.
* IM is also used in place of real-time conversation when real-time
conversation is not possible for some reason.
GROUP 3 Statements
11. Real-time text communication should be as reliable as real-time
12. Real-time text portion of a call should be as interoperable as
real-time voice portion.
13. There is no (interoperability) need to specify which real-time Text
Transport format is used WITHIN a SELF CONTAINED SYSTEM as long as the
format is reliable and supported by all components in the system.
* "Self-contained system" is a system where all of the terminals,
routers and servers are manufactured by or controlled by a single entity.
* A "Self-contained system" can include an Internet leg if both ends
terminate inside the "Self contained system".
* Where the self contained system connects to other systems - (see
14. For two systems to interoperate (with real-time text) they must both
support some protocol between them.
15. For a system to interoperate with an UNKNOWN system - it must
support AT LEAST ONE format that is known to be SUPPORTED BY ALL OTHER
16. RFC-4103 is the most commonly supported real-time text format for
SIP based IP Phone terminals connected directly to Foreign SIP Servers.
* Foreign SIP server is a server that is not owned by the same entity
that owns the terminal phone.
17. RFC-4103 and RFC-4351 are essentially identical except that
* RFC-4103 (also called text/t140) sends text data packets on "text"
channel that is separate from the audio data channel
* RFC-4351 (also called audio/t140c) sends text data packets on the
"audio" channel along with the audio packets. (But the text data is still
sent as T140 data, not as audio tones.)
The use of a single channel is of benefit to PSTN gateways because it halves
the number of 'ports' that must be created to handle a call and the voice
and text are mixed on the PSTN side anyway
With RFC-4351 it is not possible to have simultaneous voice and text in one
direction (which is required for IP Captioned Telephone) without
creating/having an additional SSRC in the terminal device to keep the two
data streams separate.
RFC-4351 is one of the multiple options that can be used in meeting TIA-1001
* RFC-4351 has Intellectual Property claims against it from Cisco.
RFC-4103 also has soft Cisco claims but RFC-4013 is a minor update of
RFC-2793 which had no claims and RFC-4103 can be implemented without
involving Cisco Intellectual Property.
18. VoIP Phones (terminals) (hardware and software) that have multiline
displays ALREADY should display realtime text data that they receive.
* Does NOT require that display be added
* Does NOT require that whole display be used
19. VoIP Phones (terminals) (hardware and software) that have text input
capability ALREADY should should allow realtime text data to be transmitted.
* Does NOT require that a keyboard be added
* Does NOT require any text input capability that is not already
possible with the terminal
20. Where phones do not provide built in real-time text conversation
capabilities, there should be a way to connect a device that does
* Either through the phone or in parallel
* That has the same privileges as the phone
* IF the phone is a public/shared phone - then connecting the text
capable phone should not require an administrator.
Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
Professor - Depts of Ind. Engr. & BioMed Engr.
Director - Trace R & D Center
University of Wisconsin-Madison
< <http://trace.wisc.edu/> http://trace.wisc.edu/> FAX 608/262-8848
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