Thread Subject: Re: FW: Revised proposal for Sec. 4.AdditionalProvisions for Audio-Visual Players or Displays

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From: Gregg Vanderheiden
Date: Wed, Aug 29 2007 11:50 AM

Comments below marked GV:




Gregg
-- ------------------------------
Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.

_____

From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Sean Hayes
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 10:55 AM
To: TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee
Subject: Re: [teitac-video] FW: Revised proposal for Sec.
4.AdditionalProvisions for Audio-Visual Players or Displays



- all platforms (flash, avi, mov etc) have a standard way of providing
captions



Not necessarily no.

AVI and Quicktime (mov) are container formats which can carry a variety of
data streams., e.g. 608, SAMI, 3GPP.

If we allowed this a manufacturer would never be able to upgrade their
caption solution (e.g. to support 708).



GV: Sorry, this was not a statement of fact. This was a list of
requirements. It was suggesting there be three requirements. This was the
first. That all formats designate at least ONE STANDARD MEANS FOR
CAPTIONING that would be supported by all players.





- For content - Captions must be provided in that format



Again, not necessarily. More like Captions must be provided in at least one
format supported by players of the containing media type.

GV: Again this was a requirement. All content had to provide captions
in the STANDARD FORM (see above) otherwise there is no guarantee that a
player could play the comments.



- For players that play that format - they must display captions AND
either have an easy way to turn them on (even if embedded in content) or
play them OPEN (always on).



Yep. Agree with this one, except for the subjective term 'easy'. And this is
the purpose of 6D "At the time of playback, captions and/or video
descriptions must be either (a) capable of being turned on and off
("closed"), or (b) visible or audible to all users ("open")."



GV: yea. Easy isn't a good word. Should be "have a means for turning the
captions on and off that is discoverable from the content without advance
knowledge of on/off action required".







Sean Hayes
Incubation Lab
Accessibility Business Unit
Microsoft



Office: +44 118 909 5867,

Mobile: +44 7875 091385



From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Gregg
Vanderheiden
Sent: 29 August 2007 16:36
To: 'TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee'
Subject: Re: [teitac-video] FW: Revised proposal for Sec.
4.AdditionalProvisions for Audio-Visual Players or Displays



I see. Hmmmm



OK How about -



- all platforms (flash, avi, mov etc) have a standard way of providing
captions



- For content - Captions must be provided in that format



- For players that play that format - they must display captions AND
either have an easy way to turn them on (even if embedded in content) or
play them OPEN (always on).












Gregg
-- ------------------------------
Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.






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From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Schomburg, Paul
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 9:34 AM
To: TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee
Subject: Re: [teitac-video] FW: Revised proposal for Sec.
4.AdditionalProvisions for Audio-Visual Players or Displays

Greg: These are good questions; unfortunately I'm not aware of a closed
caption standard that could be applied today to all personal video products.
I don't know any other way to handle this except on an agency-by-agency
basis.



Without a unified standard, interoperability would be handled by content
authoring tools that would support conversion among different timed text
metadata. Thus a broadcast video content encoded with 708 could be
re-encoded with a different time text standard when being deployed for
mobile devices. That's why we added: "Support interoperability and
conversion between other common caption formats such as CEA 608, CEA 708, or
Timed Text (e.g. DFXP)."



Thanks, Paul




_____


From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Gregg
Vanderheiden
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 11:19 PM
To: 'TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee'
Subject: Re: [teitac-video] FW: Revised proposal for Sec. 4.
AdditionalProvisions for Audio-Visual Players or Displays



Thanks



Couple questions about the part where you changed it to

"Uses this standard.

Captions or timed text (as defined by procuring agency) or display open
caption video"





- How would you get interoperability if each agency picks its own standards?


- Will purchasing agents have any idea what to specify?

- And how would a mfgr know how to design products if they don't know what
standard will apply until the get the P.O.?



Maybe I'm missing something



Thanks




Gregg
-- ------------------------------
Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.






_____


From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Schomburg, Paul
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 4:49 PM
To: TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee
Subject: [teitac-video] FW: Revised proposal for Sec. 4.
AdditionalProvisions for Audio-Visual Players or Displays

Folks: I am forwarding this without the attachments in order to allow
timely review. The attachments may come through later after the TEITAC AV
email list moderator approves my post, which apparently exceeded the maximum
size limit due to the attachments.



Best regards, Paul




_____


From: Schomburg, Paul
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 5:26 PM
To: TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee
Cc: Schomburg, Paul
Subject: Revised proposal for Sec. 4. Additional Provisions for Audio-Visual
Players or Displays



Folks: In response to comments on today's call we are providing a revised
draft for tomorrow's discussion (see below proposed text). To help
everyone's understanding I have attached in MS-Word clean and redlined
versions of the proposal. The redline shows differences from the EWG draft
at:
http://teitac.org/wiki/EWG:Draft_Aug_17#4._Additional_Provisions_for_Audio-V
isual_Players_or_Displays



Since the feedback we received today indicated that a "readily achievable"
clause could not be used I have changed the section for personal video
devices to leave the selection of closed caption or time text standard up to
the procuring agency or to allow use of open captions. I have also removed
references to screen sizes.



Best regards, Paul

-------------

4. Additional Provisions for Audio-Visual Players or Displays

4-A - Caption Playback

Analog television, digital television and tuners, computer equipment, and
other equipment must provide closed and open captions:

1. Equipment of this type:

* Analog television displays that measure 13 inches or more diagonally

* Computer equipment that includes analog television receiver or
display circuitry

Uses this standard:

* CEA 608

To provide these functions:

* Receive, decode and display signals from
* broadcast
* cable
* satellite
* Optical disc, videotape, and other recorded media
* other recorded media


2. Equipment of this type:

* Wide-screen (16:9) digital television (DTV) displays measuring at
least 7.8 inches vertically
* DTV sets with conventional (4:3) displays measuring at least 13
inches diagonally
* Stand-alone DTV tuners, whether or not they are marketed with
display screens
* Computer equipment that includes DTV receiver or display circuitry

Uses this standard:

* CEA 708

To provide these functions:

* Receive, decode and display signals from:

* broadcast
* cable
* satellite
* Optical disc, videotape, and other recorded media
* IPTV

OR

* Decode data, when available, and pass a decoded ("open-captioned")
video signal to the DTV display or monitor


3. Equipment of this type:

* Other digital video source products without broadcast reception
capability, such as video playback products for removable media (e.g.
optical disc, tape, flash memory, etc.), IP-enabled video playback products
for downloaded or streaming video content, and media player software, that
is procured for the purpose of displaying video on a DTV display or monitor

Uses this standard:

* CEA 708 or timed text with functionality equivalent [or comparable]
to CEA-708 (see end-note for definition of functional equivalent)

To provide these functions:

* Pass CEA-708 caption data, when available, to the caption decoding
circuitry of DTV displays

OR

* Decode caption data, when available, and pass a decoded
("open-captioned") video signal to the DTV display or monitor.



4. Equipment of this type...

Personal video display products with an integrated display and without
broadcast reception capability.



Uses this standard.

Captions or timed text (as defined by procuring agency) or display open
caption video



To provide these functions.

- Decode caption data or timed text, when available, for viewing on
the integrated display



Material for inclusion in the additional notes document:

TEITAC definition of "Functional Equivalent" to CEA 708

Equivalent text display functionalities must:

* Support caption placement control by caption authors for any
position within the TV safe area.

* Support standard, large, and small caption sizes and must allow the
caption author to choose a size and allow the viewer to choose an
alternative size.

* Support eight font variations. Caption authors may specify one of
these eight font styles to be used to write caption text. Equivalents must
include the ability for users to choose among the eight fonts. The
equivalent must display the font chosen by the caption author unless the
user chooses a different font.

* Support the eight font styles defined as follows: default
(undefined), monospaced with serifs (similar to Courier), proportionally
spaced with serifs (similar to Times New Roman), monospaced without serifs
(similar to Helvetica Monospaced), proportionally spaced without serifs
(similar to Arial and Swiss), casual font type (similar to Dom and Impress),
cursive font type (similar to Coronet and Marigold), and small capitals
(similar to Engravers Gothic).

* Support author and user choice of eight character foreground and
eight character background colors: white, black, red, green, blue, yellow,
magenta and cyan).

* Support author and user selection of character and background
opacity options: SOLID, TRANSLUCENT, TRANSPARENT [FLASH option deleted]

* Support options for altering the appearance of caption character
edges.

* Support the authoring and selection of the six caption services, but
information from only one service need be displayed at a given time.

* Include an option that permits a user to choose a setting that will
display captions as intended by the caption provider (a default).
Equivalents must also include an option that allows a viewer's chosen
settings to remain until the viewer chooses to alter these settings,
including during periods when the video source device is powered off.

Multimedia content creation products and/or software must:

* Support the creation of equivalent text display functionalities as
listed above
* Support interoperability and conversion between other common caption
formats such as CEA 608, CEA 708, or Timed Text (e.g. DFXP).

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