Thread Subject: Re: Three FundamentalOptionsforcaption issue.

From: James Elekes
Date: Thu, Aug 30 2007 10:40 AM

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Larry,

Don't know whether necessary but, it appears no consumers involved.
If needed, I'll represent that group.

-Jim

James J. Elekes, Chairperson
Telecommunications, Electronic/Information Technologies Committee
United States Access Board

(O) 888.564.8430



At 12:28 PM 8/30/2007, you wrote:
>Thanks.
>
>I'll communicate with the interested parties directly.
>
>... Larry ...
>
>
>Gregg Vanderheiden wrote:
>
> > With you and Allen the list looks like
> >
> > Larry G - Chair
> > Sean H
> > Andrew K
> > Gregg V
> > Allen H
> > Greg F
> >
> > Anyone else?
> >
> > (notice Larry that this is hereby transferred back to you - grin)
> >
> >
> > Gregg
> > -- ------------------------------
> > Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> >> Of Greg Fields
> >> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 9:09 AM
> >> To: TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee; TEITAC Web/Software Subcommittee
> >> Subject: Re: [teitac-websoftware] [teitac-video] Three
> >> FundamentalOptionsforcaption issue.
> >>
> >> Please add myself to the list as we produce our own
> >> Java-based media player for BlackBerry.
> >>
> >> Greg Fields, CUA
> >> Accessibility Product Manager
> >> Handheld Product Management
> >> Research In Motion (RIM)
> >> Telephone: 1 519 888 7465, ext.3867
> >> Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >> URL: http://www.blackberry.com/accessibility
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Hoffman,
> >> Allen
> >> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 10:01 AM
> >> To: TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee; TEITAC Web/Software Subcommittee
> >> Subject: Re: [teitac-video] [teitac-websoftware] Three
> >> FundamentalOptionsfor caption issue.
> >>
> >> Add me to the list please.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Allen Hoffman -- = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; v: 202-447-0303
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Gregg
> >> Vanderheiden
> >> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 9:56 AM
> >> To: 'TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee'; 'TEITAC Web/Software
> >> Subcommittee'
> >> Subject: Re: [teitac-video] [teitac-websoftware] Three Fundamental
> >> Optionsfor caption issue.
> >>
> >> Perhaps we should start out with Who and then find a time.
> >>
> >>
> >>> From the call and this email I think there is
> >>
> >> Sean,
> >> Andrew
> >> Gregg
> >> Larry
> >> Others want to volunteer?
> >>
> >> Gregg
> >> -- ------------------------------
> >> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Larry
> >>> Goldberg
> >>> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 7:48 AM
> >>> To: TEITAC AV list; 'TEITAC Web/Software Subcommittee'
> >>> Subject: Re: [teitac-video] [teitac-websoftware] Three Fundamental
> >>> Optionsfor caption issue.
> >>>
> >>> Yes, a sidebar conversation would be useful.
> >>>
> >>> Where/when?
> >>>
> >>> - Larry
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Gregg Vanderheiden wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Good point.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> We need a side panel discussion to work out the details.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Gregg
> >>>> -- ------------------------------
> >>>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _____
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
> >>> Sean Hayes
> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 2:55 PM
> >>>> To: TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee; 'TEITAC Web/Software
> >>> Subcommittee'
> >>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-video] [teitac-websoftware] Three
> >> Fundamental
> >>>> Optionsfor caption issue.
> >>>>
> >>>> But I'm not sure that would work for a container format (like
> >>>> Quicktime) which allows third party codecs to be included.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Sean Hayes
> >>>> Incubation Lab
> >>>> Accessibility Business Unit
> >>>> Microsoft
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Office: +44 118 909 5867,
> >>>>
> >>>> Mobile: +44 7875 091385
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Gregg
> >>>> Vanderheiden
> >>>> Sent: 29 August 2007 20:50
> >>>> To: 'TEITAC Web/Software Subcommittee'; 'TEITAC Audio/Video
> >>> Subcommittee'
> >>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-video] [teitac-websoftware] Three
> >> Fundamental
> >>>> Optionsfor caption issue.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> The company/organization that creates the technology
> >> specifies the
> >>>> preferred caption format ( or builds it into the technology).
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Gregg
> >>>> -- ------------------------------
> >>>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _____
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> >>> Behalf Of Sean
> >>>> Hayes
> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 1:59 PM
> >>>> To: TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee; 'TEITAC Web/Software
> >>> Subcommittee'
> >>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-websoftware] [teitac-video] Three
> >> Fundamental
> >>>> Optionsfor caption issue.
> >>>>
> >>>> I think option 2 has the most going for it of the three,
> >>> however I'm
> >>>> wondering who defines "preferred" and how.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sean Hayes
> >>>> Incubation Lab
> >>>> Accessibility Business Unit
> >>>> Microsoft
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Office: +44 118 909 5867,
> >>>>
> >>>> Mobile: +44 7875 091385
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Gregg
> >>>> Vanderheiden
> >>>> Sent: 29 August 2007 19:47
> >>>> To: 'TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee'; 'TEITAC Web/Software
> >>> Subcommittee'
> >>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-video] Three Fundamental Options for
> >>> caption issue.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> You are right. This is ongoing in two lists.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> How about the following to pull it all together. I
> >> think there are
> >>>> fundamentally just 3 options.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> OPTION 1: - ONE "Preferred" Caption Format per media format
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 1) MEDIA FORMATS that support audio must specify one
> >>> PREFERRED format for
> >>>> captioning. (though many caption techniques may exist)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 2) CONTENT must use the PREFERRED format for captioning
> >> (though it
> >>>> may provide additional redundant versions of captions in
> >>> other formats
> >>>> as well.)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 3) PLAYERS must support playing of captions that are in
> >> PREFERRED
> >>>> format for any media type they play (thought they may
> >> support other
> >>>> caption formats as well)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 4) PLAYERS must allow captions to be turned on /off via a
> >>> mechanism
> >>>> that can be discovered from the player (without advanced
> >>> knowledge of
> >>>> activation
> >>>> sequence) OR the captions must always be rendered by the
> >>> player. This
> >>>> includes stand alone players or players embedded in content where
> >>>> media controls are not usually visible.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> OPTION 2: - MULTIPLE "Preferred" Caption Formats per
> >> media format
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Same as option 1 except.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 1) MEDIA FORMATS - could have more than one PREFERRED
> >>> caption formats
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 2) CONTENT can choose between the PREFERRED formats and
> >>> implement the
> >>>> one they like.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 3) PLAYERS - EVERY player has to support ALL
> >> PREFFERED formats
> >>>> (for the media types they play).
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 4)(no change to #4)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> OPTION 3: NO "Preferred" Caption Formats per media format
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Same as option 1 except
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 1) MEDIA FORMATS - could have any number of formats. No caption
> >>>> format is required or preferred.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 2) CONTENT can use any format for captioning that they like.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 3) PLAYERS - EVERY player has to support ALL possible
> >>> formats for
> >>>> captioning for their media types.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 4)(no change to #4)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> CONCLUSION
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Option 1 is easiest for players
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Option 2 is easiest and most flexible for content providers.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Option 3 does not seem practical.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Gregg
> >>>>
> >>>> -- ------------------------------
> >>>>
> >>>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>
> >>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >>>>
> >>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hoffman, Allen
> >>>>
> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 11:51 AM
> >>>>
> >>>>> To: TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee
> >>>>
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-video] FW: Revised proposal for Sec.
> >>>>
> >>>>> 4.AdditionalProvisions for Audio-Visual Players or Displays
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> If it helps:
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> We have two groups talking a bit about similar topics now.
> >>>>
> >>>>> A/V and web/software, regarding both a/v content requirements
> >>>>
> >>>>> and a/v hardware/software user-agent requirements. We also
> >>>>
> >>>>> have to some extent authoring tool requirements discussion
> >>>>
> >>>>> for a/v, but in the authoring tool area this didn't come up
> >>>>
> >>>>> really with a/v specifically in mind.
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> So, I think we have content-format requirements that could
> >>>>
> >>>>> include a/v requirements regarding how captions are stored,
> >>>>
> >>>>> and could include how video-description is also stored.
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> I think we have specific captioning content storage format
> >>>>
> >>>>> requirements which allow for broadcast transport, e.g. 608/708.
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> I think we have user-agent requirements that say things like,
> >>>>
> >>>>> provide ability to turn captions on/off if not open, ditto
> >>>>
> >>>>> for video-descriptions, and some other options. Some of this
> >>>>
> >>>>> may be scoped by type of playback platform, e.g. a DVD player
> >>>>
> >>>>> vs. a media-player running on a PC, vs. a media player taking
> >>>>
> >>>>> streaming from a web page.
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> The part that's missing in web/software is user-agent part
> >>>>
> >>>>> and our user-agent requires might be defined in a/v and
> >>>>
> >>>>> scoped to fit in web/software?
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> The content storage requirements should be defined in a/v and
> >>>>
> >>>>> then migrated to content format.
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> The authoring tool requirements if definable should be
> >>>>
> >>>>> defined here and inserted in authoring tool section.
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> I hate to say it this way but in the end most of this gets
> >>>>
> >>>>> split up here and there--but that's because a/v is so
> >>>>
> >>>>> integrated into everything now.
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> So, how can we facilitate this assemblage and distribution?
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Allen Hoffman -- = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; v: 202-447-0303
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>
> >>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >>>>
> >>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
> >>>>
> >>>>> Larry Goldberg
> >>>>
> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 12:37 PM
> >>>>
> >>>>> To: TEITAC AV list
> >>>>
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-video] FW: Revised proposal for Sec. 4.
> >>>>
> >>>>> AdditionalProvisions for Audio-Visual Players or Displays
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> I agree that this is an authoring issue, but we do need to
> >>>>
> >>>>> know what to author to and the capabilities of the engines
> >>>>
> >>>>> we're authoring for.
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> ... Larry ...
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Sean Hayes wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> That's partly true. The caption data needs to be stored
> >>> in a master
> >>>>
> >>>>>> format somewhere that can be converted to any and all
> >>>>
> >>>>> play-out formats
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> by the copyright owner. That does not imply that it needs to be
> >>>>
> >>>>>> converted from playback format A to playback format B by all and
> >>>>
> >>>>>> sundry. While it is technically possible for example to go
> >>>>
> >>>>> from 708 to
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> SAMI or vice-versa, it is fairly hard, likely a lossy
> >>>>
> >>>>> conversion, and
> >>>>
> >>>>>> an N-squared problem to accommodate all the playback formats.
> >>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> The lock in and interoperability problem today is largely
> >>>>
> >>>>> due to the
> >>>>
> >>>>>> various proprietary subtitling equipment being used and
> >>>>
> >>>>> formats at the
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> authoring level; not with the delivery format. DFXP was
> >>>>
> >>>>> created to try
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> and build a lingua-franca at the authoring level, however
> >>>>
> >>>>> it is early
> >>>>
> >>>>>> days for that process.
> >>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> Re-authoring for various delivery formats is the practical
> >>>>
> >>>>> reality for
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> a multiplicity of reasons, codec's; aspect ratio;
> >> resolution etc.
> >>>>
> >>>>>> Captioning should be an ingrained part of this process,
> >> just like
> >>>>
> >>>>>> audio is. If we want to put 508 constraints out there
> >> to help the
> >>>>
> >>>>>> state of captioning, the content format and authoring tools
> >>>>
> >>>>> provisions
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> may be the place to do it. The player rules are not.
> >>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> Sean Hayes
> >>>>
> >>>>>> Incubation Lab
> >>>>
> >>>>>> Accessibility Business Unit
> >>>>
> >>>>>> Microsoft
> >>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> Office: +44 118 909 5867,
> >>>>
> >>>>>> Mobile: +44 7875 091385
> >>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>
> >>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >>>>
> >>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Larry
> >>>>
> >>>>>> Goldberg
> >>>>
> >>>>>> Sent: 29 August 2007 14:18
> >>>>
> >>>>>> To: TEITAC AV list
> >>>>
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-video] FW: Revised proposal for Sec. 4.
> >>>>
> >>>>>> AdditionalProvisions for Audio-Visual Players or Displays
> >>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> The caption data need to be interoperable, not the
> >> playback media.
> >>>>
> >>>>>> That is, we can readily convert 608 to 708 to SMIL to
> >> SAMI to DFXP
> >>>>
> >>>>>> caption formats. A new format developed by HD-DVD and/or
> >>>>
> >>>>> BluRay to be
> >>>>
> >>>>>> functionally equivalent to 708 needs to be readily
> >>>>
> >>>>> transferable to and
> >>>>
> >>>>> from other accepted formats.
> >>>>
> >>>>>> If this is not the case, then a government agency would be
> >>>>
> >>>>> forced to
> >>>>
> >>>>>> re-author their captions for this special new format
> >> (anticipating
> >>>>
> >>>>>> that media will be distributed in multiple formats for
> >>> training and
> >>>>
> >>>>>> public information).
> >>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> - Larry
> >>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> Sean Hayes wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> What do you mean by interoperability here? And why is this
> >>>>
> >>>>> an issue?
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> the world is full of non interoperable systems, Flash,
> >>> HTML, Java,
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> SMIL, blah blah blah.
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> If an agency picked VHS then they couldn't play it back on
> >>>>
> >>>>> computers
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> or DVD players. If they picked Flash to publish a
> >>>>
> >>>>> multimedia course
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> then they couldn't use a Java player to view it.
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> If an agency wants to do electronic distribution, they
> >>>>
> >>>>> would need to
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> procure a complete system. If for example the agency
> >> chose to use
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> windows media for something, then they would need to
> >>> acquire tools
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> that can generate, caption, and stream it, and players
> >>> to view it.
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> There exists many tools for importing and exporting
> >> various media
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> formats if that is an issue.
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> I don't see any new problem here which isn't true of all E&IT.
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> Sean Hayes
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> Incubation Lab
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> Accessibility Business Unit
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> Microsoft
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> Office: +44 118 909 5867,
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> Mobile: +44 7875 091385
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> >> Behalf Of Gregg
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> Vanderheiden
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> Sent: 29 August 2007 04:19
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> To: 'TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee'
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-video] FW: Revised proposal for Sec. 4.
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> AdditionalProvisions for Audio-Visual Players or Displays
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> Couple questions about the part where you changed it to
> >>> "Uses this
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> standard...
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> Captions or timed text (as defined by procuring agency)
> >>> or display
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> open caption video"
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> - How would you get interoperability if each agency
> >> picks its own
> >>>>
> >>>>> standards?
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> - Will purchasing agents have any idea what to specify?
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> - And how would a mfgr know how to design products if they
> >>>>
> >>>>> don't know
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> what standard will apply until the get the P.O.?
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> Maybe I'm missing something
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> Gregg
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> -- ------------------------------
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>

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