Thread Subject: Re: Definition of captions

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From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 3:30 PM

I like that.
In TEITAC are we using this for captions
(http://teitac.org/wiki/EWG:Draft_Jan_7#Captions_.28Consensed.29) or
caption text (http://teitac.org/wiki/EWG:Draft_Jan_7#Caption_Text)?

Or as a replacement for both?

AWK

> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto:teitac-
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Gregg Vanderheiden
> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 1:29 PM
> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
>
> Good point.
>
> We don't require them for audio only usually but this is the
> definition -
> not a requirement.
>
> Someone also mentioned that it could be text or images of text - I
> wouldn't
> mess up the definition thought . maybe a note
>
> If we use ISO style definition (where the definition can be
substituted
> for
> the word being defined) it might look like
>
>
> Captions
> synchronized text equivalent to audio information, including speech
and
> any
> non-spoken information (e.g. speaker identification, sound effects)
> necessary for comprehension of the media.
>
> NOTE: for Audio-visual materials, captions can be separate from the
> video,
> superimposed on the video, or permanently incorporated into the video
> (open
> captions).
>
>
>
> Gregg
> -- ------------------------------
> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> > Of Andrew Kirkpatrick
> > Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 11:04 AM
> > To: TEITAC Committee
> > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> >
> > Actually, captions don't just apply to synchronozed media -
> > theycan apply to audio only also.
> >
> > I like:
> > Text providing a synchronized equivalent to audio
> > information, including speech and any non-spoken information
> > (e.g. speaker identification, sound effects) necessary for
> > comprehension of the media.
> >
> > AWK
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "Larry Goldberg" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > To: "TEITAC Committee" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > Cc: "'WCAG Editors'" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > Sent: 2/16/08 10:14 AM
> > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> >
> > that's good - incorporates all recent comments.
> >
> > ... Larry ...
> >
> >
> > On Feb 16, 2008, at 6:14 AM, Sean Hayes wrote:
> >
> > How about:
> >
> > Text providing an equivalent to audio information contained
> > in synchronized media, where the text is presented
> > simultaneously with its equivalent audio, and represents the
> > speech and any non-spoken information (e.g. speaker
> > identification, sound effects) necessary for comprehension of
> > the media.
> >
> > Sean Hayes
> > Incubation Lab
> > Accessibility Business Unit
> > Microsoft
> >
> > Office: +44 118 909 5867,
> > Mobile: +44 7875 091385
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > ] On Behalf Of Gregg Vanderheiden
> > Sent: 16 February 2008 01:42
> > To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> > Cc: 'WCAG Editors'
> > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> >
> > Hmmm
> >
> >
> > This does not say that the text needs to be synchronized.
> > A transcript would meet this definition and shouldn't.
> >
> > That takes us to something with two 'synchronized's but not
> > sure how to avoid it.
> >
> >
> > Text providing a synchronized equivalent to audio information
> > contained in synchronized media, including speech and
> > non-spoken information (e.g.
> > speaker identification, sound effects) necessary for
> > comprehension of the media.
> >
> >
> > OR
> >
> > synchronized text equivalent to audio information contained
> > in synchronized media, including speech and non-spoken
> > information (e.g. speaker identification, sound effects)
> > necessary for comprehension of the media.
> >
> >
> >
> > Gregg
> > -- ------------------------------
> > Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> > Of Andrew
> > > Kirkpatrick
> > > Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 2:46 PM
> > > To: TEITAC Committee
> > > Cc: WCAG Editors
> > > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > >
> > > How about:
> > >
> > > Captions
> > > Text providing an equivalent to audio information contained in
> > > synchronized media, including speech and non-spoken
> > information (e.g.
> > > speaker identification, sound effects) necessary for
> > comprehension of
> > > the media.
> > >
> > > (no notes)
> > >
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto:teitac-
> > >> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Gregg
Vanderheiden
> > >> Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 3:41 PM
> > >> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> > >> Cc: 'WCAG Editors'
> > >> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > >>
> > >> Hmm
> > >> I think people wanted speaker ID in there. Any problem with
that?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Gregg
> > >> -- ------------------------------
> > >> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > >>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
> > >>> Andrew Kirkpatrick
> > >>> Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 12:11 PM
> > >>> To: TEITAC Committee
> > >>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > >>>
> > >>> I think that equivalent is good here. We can't say "verbatim"
> > >>> unless we are only talking about speech, and we're including
> > >>> non-spoken information. How about:
> > >>>
> > >>> Captions:
> > >>> Text providing information equivalent to the audio information
> > >>> contained in synchronized media, including speech, sounds, and
> > >>> non-spoken information necessary for comprehension of the media.
> > >>>
> > >>> (no notes)
> > >>>
> > >>> AWK
> > >>>
> > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto:teitac-
> > >>>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Larry Goldberg
> > >>>> Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 12:20 PM
> > >>>> To: TEITAC Committee
> > >>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > >>>>
> > >>>> This opens up the issue of verbatim and whose judgement
> > > it is to
> > >>>> decide "facilitation of readability."
> > >>>> I don't think we want to go there.
> > >>>> Better to simply say, "text should be a verbatim
> > > reflection of the
> > >>>> audio unless timing of the video does not allow it."
> > >>>>
> > >>>> ... Larry ...
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Feb 15, 2008, at 12:08 PM, Gregg Vanderheiden wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I think that equivalent does not mean identical. We
> > > have textual
> > >>>> equivalents to pictures and many other uses of the term
> > > that would
> > >>>> seem to indicate it did not need to be identical.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> However, we could add a note or just cover this and make this
> > > clear.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Note: Captions are often not verbatim to facilitate the
> > > readability
> > >>>> within the time allowed by the material.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> That would make it
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> <proposed>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> text that provides equivalents to the audio information in
> > >>>> synchronized media and is displayed concurrently with the
sound.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Note: Audio information includes speech and other
> > >>> information conveyed
> > >>>> using sound such as meaningful sound effects and
> > > identification of
> > >>>> speakers.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Note: Captions are often not verbatim to facilitate the
> > > readability
> > >>>> within the time allowed by the material.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> </proposed>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Gregg
> > >>>> -- ------------------------------
> > >>>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > >>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> > >>> Behalf Of Sean
> > >>>>> Hayes
> > >>>>> Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 10:58 AM
> > >>>>> To: TEITAC Committee
> > >>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> In the UK/EU captions (or as we call them here to confuse the
> > >>>>> unwary, subtitles) on mainstream TV are very rarely verbatim
> > >>>>> transcripts of the speech, but are usually cleaned up and
> > >>> edited for
> > >>>>> reading speed. So provided equivalent doesn't mean
> > >>> identical, I'd be
> > >>>>> happy with the proposed change.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Sean Hayes
> > >>>>> Incubation Lab
> > >>>>> Accessibility Business Unit
> > >>>>> Microsoft
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Office: +44 118 909 5867,
> > >>>>> Mobile: +44 7875 091385
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > >>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> > >>> Behalf Of Larry
> > >>>>> Goldberg
> > >>>>> Sent: 15 February 2008 16:28
> > >>>>> To: TEITAC Committee
> > >>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I would guess that by now everyone knows that caption text is
> > >>>>> supposed to exactly match audio and not be some loose
> > >>> summary, so I
> > >>>>> wouldn't argue vociferously against the proposed
> > > harmonization
> > >>>>> wording. I would just suggest that the use of the phrase
> > >>>>> "equivalents to the audio information"
> > >>>>> might lead a novice to some odd textual display. Perhaps
> > >>> change that
> > >>>>> to:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> <newly proposed>
> > >>>>> text that MATCHES OR REFLECTS audio information in
> > > synchronized
> > >>>>> media and is displayed concurrently with the sound.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Note: Audio information includes speech and other information
> > >>>>> conveyed using sound such as meaningful sound effects and
> > >>>>> identification of speakers.
> > >>>>> </newly proposed>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> But as I said, in the interest of harmonization, the WCAG
> > >>> verbiage
> > >>>>> should work.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> ... Larry ...
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On Feb 15, 2008, at 11:13 AM, Andi Snow-Weaver wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> In WCAG, we have received a comment that the wording in the
> > >>>>> definition of "caption text" is very awkward;
> > > specifically the
> > >>>>> wording "...
> > >>>>> synchronized
> > >>>>> with synchronized media...."
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> In our meeting yesterday, we settled on less awkward wording.
> > >>>>> In the spirit of harmonization, we would like to propose
> > >>> that TEITAC
> > >>>>> adopt similar wording.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> <current>
> > >>>>> Text presented and synchronized with synchronized media
> > >>> to provide
> > >>>>> not only the speech, but also non-speech information conveyed
> > >>>>> through sound, including meaningful sound effects and
> > >>> identification
> > >>>>> of speakers.
> > >>>>> </current>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> <proposed>
> > >>>>> text that provides equivalents to the audio information in
> > >>>>> synchronized media and is displayed concurrently with
> > > the sound.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Note: Audio information includes speech and other information
> > >>>>> conveyed using sound such as meaningful sound effects and
> > >>>>> identification of speakers.
> > >>>>> </proposed>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Andi
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>

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