Thread Subject: Re: Definition of captions

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From: Sean Hayes
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 3:35 PM

I think that's OK, I think the key thing for legibility is that the onset time of the caption occurs when the actor begins speaking; I'm concerned that if we just say 'the audio' it's not 100% clear what you are synchronising with, but maybe I'm overly nit-picking.

Or paraphrasing CEA 608:
Captions: a visual depiction of a soundtrack timed to correspond to the soundtrack.

Which is quite pithy, and even more general.

Sean Hayes
Incubation Lab
Accessibility Business Unit
Microsoft

Office: +44 118 909 5867,
Mobile: +44 7875 091385


-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Gregg Vanderheiden
Sent: 17 February 2008 19:13
To: 'TEITAC Committee'
Cc: 'WCAG Editors'
Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions

I think that works. I was hoping for an ISO type definition (where the
definition can be inserted for the word in a sentence and it will make sense
- even if it is long) so that it might have more general application
including in WCAG where we try to use ISO type definitions.

What you propose actually works in ISO format but it somewhat awkward
because of the word 'providing'. Also you start out with the text being
the equivalent and switch to the audio being equivalent half way through. I
guess if they are equivalent it works both ways but the text is always less
than the audio in fact.

Finally do we want to use "simultaneously" or synchronized.
Synchronized was I believe the preferred word.

How about:

Text equivalent to audio information, where the equivalent
text is synchronized with the audio, and represents the
speech and any non-spoken information (e.g. speaker
identification, sound effects) necessary for comprehension.


If we want to use "simultaneously" we can substitute "presented
simultaneously" for 'synchronizes'.




Gregg
-- ------------------------------
Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> Of Sean Hayes
> Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 12:25 PM
> To: TEITAC Committee
> Cc: 'WCAG Editors'
> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
>
> You can only caption audio if you have a place to put the
> text! My assumption was that the addition of the text made it
> synchronised media. However yes to be completely general I
> would suggest:
>
> Text providing an equivalent to audio information, where the
> text is presented simultaneously with its equivalent audio,
> and represents the speech and any non-spoken information
> (e.g. speaker identification, sound effects) necessary for
> comprehension.
>
> Sean Hayes
> Incubation Lab
> Accessibility Business Unit
> Microsoft
>
> Office: +44 118 909 5867,
> Mobile: +44 7875 091385
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> Of Gregg Vanderheiden
> Sent: 17 February 2008 00:51
> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> Cc: 'WCAG Editors'
> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
>
> I think you missed the email where someone pointed out that
> you can caption audio. So captions are not just for
> synchronized media.
>
>
>
> Hmmmm
>
> How about
>
> synchronized text equivalent to audio information contained
> in media, including speech and non-spoken information (e.g.
> speaker identification, sound effects) necessary for
> comprehension of the media.
>
> Gregg
> -- ------------------------------
> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Sean
> > Hayes
> > Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 5:15 AM
> > To: TEITAC Committee
> > Cc: 'WCAG Editors'
> > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> >
> > How about:
> >
> > Text providing an equivalent to audio information contained in
> > synchronized media, where the text is presented simultaneously with
> > its equivalent audio, and represents the speech and any non-spoken
> > information (e.g. speaker identification, sound effects)
> necessary for
> > comprehension of the media.
> >
> > Sean Hayes
> > Incubation Lab
> > Accessibility Business Unit
> > Microsoft
> >
> > Office: +44 118 909 5867,
> > Mobile: +44 7875 091385
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> Of Gregg
> > Vanderheiden
> > Sent: 16 February 2008 01:42
> > To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> > Cc: 'WCAG Editors'
> > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> >
> > Hmmm
> >
> >
> > This does not say that the text needs to be synchronized.
> > A transcript would meet this definition and shouldn't.
> >
> > That takes us to something with two 'synchronized's but not
> sure how
> > to avoid it.
> >
> >
> > Text providing a synchronized equivalent to audio information
> > contained in synchronized media, including speech and non-spoken
> > information (e.g.
> > speaker identification, sound effects) necessary for
> comprehension of
> > the media.
> >
> >
> > OR
> >
> > synchronized text equivalent to audio information contained in
> > synchronized media, including speech and non-spoken
> information (e.g.
> > speaker identification, sound effects) necessary for
> comprehension of
> > the media.
> >
> >
> >
> > Gregg
> > -- ------------------------------
> > Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> > Of Andrew
> > > Kirkpatrick
> > > Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 2:46 PM
> > > To: TEITAC Committee
> > > Cc: WCAG Editors
> > > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > >
> > > How about:
> > >
> > > Captions
> > > Text providing an equivalent to audio information contained in
> > > synchronized media, including speech and non-spoken
> > information (e.g.
> > > speaker identification, sound effects) necessary for
> > comprehension of
> > > the media.
> > >
> > > (no notes)
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto:teitac-
> > > > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Gregg
> Vanderheiden
> > > > Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 3:41 PM
> > > > To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> > > > Cc: 'WCAG Editors'
> > > > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > > >
> > > > Hmm
> > > > I think people wanted speaker ID in there. Any problem
> with that?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Gregg
> > > > -- ------------------------------ Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > > > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
> > > > > Andrew Kirkpatrick
> > > > > Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 12:11 PM
> > > > > To: TEITAC Committee
> > > > > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > > > >
> > > > > I think that equivalent is good here. We can't say "verbatim"
> > > > > unless we are only talking about speech, and we're including
> > > > > non-spoken information. How about:
> > > > >
> > > > > Captions:
> > > > > Text providing information equivalent to the audio information
> > > > > contained in synchronized media, including speech, sounds, and
> > > > > non-spoken information necessary for comprehension of
> the media.
> > > > >
> > > > > (no notes)
> > > > >
> > > > > AWK
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > [mailto:teitac-
> > > > > > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
> Larry Goldberg
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 12:20 PM
> > > > > > To: TEITAC Committee
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This opens up the issue of verbatim and whose judgement
> > > it is to
> > > > > > decide "facilitation of readability."
> > > > > > I don't think we want to go there.
> > > > > > Better to simply say, "text should be a verbatim
> > > reflection of the
> > > > > > audio unless timing of the video does not allow it."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ... Larry ...
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Feb 15, 2008, at 12:08 PM, Gregg Vanderheiden wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think that equivalent does not mean identical. We
> > > have textual
> > > > > > equivalents to pictures and many other uses of the term
> > > that would
> > > > > > seem to indicate it did not need to be identical.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > However, we could add a note or just cover this and
> make this
> > > clear.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Note: Captions are often not verbatim to facilitate the
> > > readability
> > > > > > within the time allowed by the material.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That would make it
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > <proposed>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > text that provides equivalents to the audio information in
> > > > > > synchronized media and is displayed concurrently with
> > the sound.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Note: Audio information includes speech and other
> > > > > information conveyed
> > > > > > using sound such as meaningful sound effects and
> > > identification of
> > > > > > speakers.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Note: Captions are often not verbatim to facilitate the
> > > readability
> > > > > > within the time allowed by the material.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > </proposed>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Gregg
> > > > > > -- ------------------------------ Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > > > > > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> > > > > Behalf Of Sean
> > > > > > > Hayes
> > > > > > > Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 10:58 AM
> > > > > > > To: TEITAC Committee
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In the UK/EU captions (or as we call them here to
> > confuse the
> > > > > > > unwary, subtitles) on mainstream TV are very
> rarely verbatim
> > > > > > > transcripts of the speech, but are usually cleaned up and
> > > > > edited for
> > > > > > > reading speed. So provided equivalent doesn't mean
> > > > > identical, I'd be
> > > > > > > happy with the proposed change.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sean Hayes
> > > > > > > Incubation Lab
> > > > > > > Accessibility Business Unit
> > > > > > > Microsoft
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Office: +44 118 909 5867,
> > > > > > > Mobile: +44 7875 091385
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > > > > > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> > > > > Behalf Of Larry
> > > > > > > Goldberg
> > > > > > > Sent: 15 February 2008 16:28
> > > > > > > To: TEITAC Committee
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I would guess that by now everyone knows that
> > caption text is
> > > > > > > supposed to exactly match audio and not be some loose
> > > > > summary, so I
> > > > > > > wouldn't argue vociferously against the proposed
> > > harmonization
> > > > > > > wording. I would just suggest that the use of the phrase
> > > > > > > "equivalents to the audio information"
> > > > > > > might lead a novice to some odd textual display. Perhaps
> > > > > change that
> > > > > > > to:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > <newly proposed>
> > > > > > > text that MATCHES OR REFLECTS audio information in
> > > synchronized
> > > > > > > media and is displayed concurrently with the sound.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Note: Audio information includes speech and other
> > information
> > > > > > > conveyed using sound such as meaningful sound effects and
> > > > > > > identification of speakers.
> > > > > > > </newly proposed>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > But as I said, in the interest of harmonization, the WCAG
> > > > > verbiage
> > > > > > > should work.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ... Larry ...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Feb 15, 2008, at 11:13 AM, Andi Snow-Weaver wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In WCAG, we have received a comment that the
> wording in the
> > > > > > > definition of "caption text" is very awkward;
> > > specifically the
> > > > > > > wording "...
> > > > > > > synchronized
> > > > > > > with synchronized media...."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In our meeting yesterday, we settled on less
> > awkward wording.
> > > > > > > In the spirit of harmonization, we would like to propose
> > > > > that TEITAC
> > > > > > > adopt similar wording.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > <current>
> > > > > > > Text presented and synchronized with synchronized media
> > > > > to provide
> > > > > > > not only the speech, but also non-speech
> > information conveyed
> > > > > > > through sound, including meaningful sound effects and
> > > > > identification
> > > > > > > of speakers.
> > > > > > > </current>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > <proposed>
> > > > > > > text that provides equivalents to the audio information in
> > > > > > > synchronized media and is displayed concurrently with
> > > the sound.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Note: Audio information includes speech and other
> > information
> > > > > > > conveyed using sound such as meaningful sound effects and
> > > > > > > identification of speakers.
> > > > > > > </proposed>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Andi
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >

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