Thread Subject: Re: Definition of captions

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From: Mike Paciello
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 2:05 PM

Gregg/Sean -

For the purpose of ensuring we have clarity during tomorrow's conference
call, can we have a "final version" of this caption language...today.

- Mike

Mike Paciello
Cell: +1.603.566.7713


> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> Of Gregg Vanderheiden
> Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 2:13 PM
> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> Cc: 'WCAG Editors'
> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
>
> I think that works. I was hoping for an ISO type definition
> (where the definition can be inserted for the word in a
> sentence and it will make sense
> - even if it is long) so that it might have more general
> application including in WCAG where we try to use ISO type
> definitions.
>
> What you propose actually works in ISO format but it somewhat awkward
> because of the word 'providing'. Also you start out with
> the text being
> the equivalent and switch to the audio being equivalent half
> way through. I guess if they are equivalent it works both
> ways but the text is always less than the audio in fact.
>
> Finally do we want to use "simultaneously" or synchronized.
> Synchronized was I believe the preferred word.
>
> How about:
>
> Text equivalent to audio information, where the equivalent
> text is synchronized with the audio, and represents the
> speech and any non-spoken information (e.g. speaker
> identification, sound effects) necessary for comprehension.
>
>
> If we want to use "simultaneously" we can substitute
> "presented simultaneously" for 'synchronizes'.
>
>
>
>
> Gregg
> -- ------------------------------
> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Sean
> > Hayes
> > Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 12:25 PM
> > To: TEITAC Committee
> > Cc: 'WCAG Editors'
> > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> >
> > You can only caption audio if you have a place to put the text! My
> > assumption was that the addition of the text made it synchronised
> > media. However yes to be completely general I would suggest:
> >
> > Text providing an equivalent to audio information, where
> the text is
> > presented simultaneously with its equivalent audio, and
> represents the
> > speech and any non-spoken information (e.g. speaker identification,
> > sound effects) necessary for comprehension.
> >
> > Sean Hayes
> > Incubation Lab
> > Accessibility Business Unit
> > Microsoft
> >
> > Office: +44 118 909 5867,
> > Mobile: +44 7875 091385
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> Of Gregg
> > Vanderheiden
> > Sent: 17 February 2008 00:51
> > To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> > Cc: 'WCAG Editors'
> > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> >
> > I think you missed the email where someone pointed out that you can
> > caption audio. So captions are not just for synchronized media.
> >
> >
> >
> > Hmmmm
> >
> > How about
> >
> > synchronized text equivalent to audio information contained
> in media,
> > including speech and non-spoken information (e.g.
> > speaker identification, sound effects) necessary for
> comprehension of
> > the media.
> >
> > Gregg
> > -- ------------------------------
> > Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Sean
> > > Hayes
> > > Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 5:15 AM
> > > To: TEITAC Committee
> > > Cc: 'WCAG Editors'
> > > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > >
> > > How about:
> > >
> > > Text providing an equivalent to audio information contained in
> > > synchronized media, where the text is presented
> simultaneously with
> > > its equivalent audio, and represents the speech and any
> non-spoken
> > > information (e.g. speaker identification, sound effects)
> > necessary for
> > > comprehension of the media.
> > >
> > > Sean Hayes
> > > Incubation Lab
> > > Accessibility Business Unit
> > > Microsoft
> > >
> > > Office: +44 118 909 5867,
> > > Mobile: +44 7875 091385
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> > Of Gregg
> > > Vanderheiden
> > > Sent: 16 February 2008 01:42
> > > To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> > > Cc: 'WCAG Editors'
> > > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > >
> > > Hmmm
> > >
> > >
> > > This does not say that the text needs to be synchronized.
> > > A transcript would meet this definition and shouldn't.
> > >
> > > That takes us to something with two 'synchronized's but not
> > sure how
> > > to avoid it.
> > >
> > >
> > > Text providing a synchronized equivalent to audio information
> > > contained in synchronized media, including speech and non-spoken
> > > information (e.g.
> > > speaker identification, sound effects) necessary for
> > comprehension of
> > > the media.
> > >
> > >
> > > OR
> > >
> > > synchronized text equivalent to audio information contained in
> > > synchronized media, including speech and non-spoken
> > information (e.g.
> > > speaker identification, sound effects) necessary for
> > comprehension of
> > > the media.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Gregg
> > > -- ------------------------------
> > > Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> > > Of Andrew
> > > > Kirkpatrick
> > > > Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 2:46 PM
> > > > To: TEITAC Committee
> > > > Cc: WCAG Editors
> > > > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > > >
> > > > How about:
> > > >
> > > > Captions
> > > > Text providing an equivalent to audio information contained in
> > > > synchronized media, including speech and non-spoken
> > > information (e.g.
> > > > speaker identification, sound effects) necessary for
> > > comprehension of
> > > > the media.
> > > >
> > > > (no notes)
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto:teitac-
> > > > > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Gregg
> > Vanderheiden
> > > > > Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 3:41 PM
> > > > > To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> > > > > Cc: 'WCAG Editors'
> > > > > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > > > >
> > > > > Hmm
> > > > > I think people wanted speaker ID in there. Any problem
> > with that?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Gregg
> > > > > -- ------------------------------ Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > > > > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> On Behalf Of
> > > > > > Andrew Kirkpatrick
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 12:11 PM
> > > > > > To: TEITAC Committee
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think that equivalent is good here. We can't say
> "verbatim"
> > > > > > unless we are only talking about speech, and we're
> including
> > > > > > non-spoken information. How about:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Captions:
> > > > > > Text providing information equivalent to the audio
> information
> > > > > > contained in synchronized media, including speech,
> sounds, and
> > > > > > non-spoken information necessary for comprehension of
> > the media.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > (no notes)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > AWK
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > [mailto:teitac-
> > > > > > > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
> > Larry Goldberg
> > > > > > > Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 12:20 PM
> > > > > > > To: TEITAC Committee
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This opens up the issue of verbatim and whose judgement
> > > > it is to
> > > > > > > decide "facilitation of readability."
> > > > > > > I don't think we want to go there.
> > > > > > > Better to simply say, "text should be a verbatim
> > > > reflection of the
> > > > > > > audio unless timing of the video does not allow it."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ... Larry ...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Feb 15, 2008, at 12:08 PM, Gregg Vanderheiden wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think that equivalent does not mean identical. We
> > > > have textual
> > > > > > > equivalents to pictures and many other uses of the term
> > > > that would
> > > > > > > seem to indicate it did not need to be identical.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > However, we could add a note or just cover this and
> > make this
> > > > clear.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Note: Captions are often not verbatim to facilitate the
> > > > readability
> > > > > > > within the time allowed by the material.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That would make it
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > <proposed>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > text that provides equivalents to the audio
> information in
> > > > > > > synchronized media and is displayed concurrently with
> > > the sound.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Note: Audio information includes speech and other
> > > > > > information conveyed
> > > > > > > using sound such as meaningful sound effects and
> > > > identification of
> > > > > > > speakers.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Note: Captions are often not verbatim to facilitate the
> > > > readability
> > > > > > > within the time allowed by the material.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > </proposed>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Gregg
> > > > > > > -- ------------------------------ Gregg C
> Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > > > > > > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> > > > > > Behalf Of Sean
> > > > > > > > Hayes
> > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 10:58 AM
> > > > > > > > To: TEITAC Committee
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In the UK/EU captions (or as we call them here to
> > > confuse the
> > > > > > > > unwary, subtitles) on mainstream TV are very
> > rarely verbatim
> > > > > > > > transcripts of the speech, but are usually
> cleaned up and
> > > > > > edited for
> > > > > > > > reading speed. So provided equivalent doesn't mean
> > > > > > identical, I'd be
> > > > > > > > happy with the proposed change.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sean Hayes
> > > > > > > > Incubation Lab
> > > > > > > > Accessibility Business Unit Microsoft
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Office: +44 118 909 5867,
> > > > > > > > Mobile: +44 7875 091385
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > > > > > > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> > > > > > Behalf Of Larry
> > > > > > > > Goldberg
> > > > > > > > Sent: 15 February 2008 16:28
> > > > > > > > To: TEITAC Committee
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I would guess that by now everyone knows that
> > > caption text is
> > > > > > > > supposed to exactly match audio and not be some loose
> > > > > > summary, so I
> > > > > > > > wouldn't argue vociferously against the proposed
> > > > harmonization
> > > > > > > > wording. I would just suggest that the use of
> the phrase
> > > > > > > > "equivalents to the audio information"
> > > > > > > > might lead a novice to some odd textual display. Perhaps
> > > > > > change that
> > > > > > > > to:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > <newly proposed>
> > > > > > > > text that MATCHES OR REFLECTS audio information in
> > > > synchronized
> > > > > > > > media and is displayed concurrently with the sound.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Note: Audio information includes speech and other
> > > information
> > > > > > > > conveyed using sound such as meaningful sound
> effects and
> > > > > > > > identification of speakers.
> > > > > > > > </newly proposed>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > But as I said, in the interest of
> harmonization, the WCAG
> > > > > > verbiage
> > > > > > > > should work.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ... Larry ...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Feb 15, 2008, at 11:13 AM, Andi Snow-Weaver wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In WCAG, we have received a comment that the
> > wording in the
> > > > > > > > definition of "caption text" is very awkward;
> > > > specifically the
> > > > > > > > wording "...
> > > > > > > > synchronized
> > > > > > > > with synchronized media...."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In our meeting yesterday, we settled on less
> > > awkward wording.
> > > > > > > > In the spirit of harmonization, we would like to propose
> > > > > > that TEITAC
> > > > > > > > adopt similar wording.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > <current>
> > > > > > > > Text presented and synchronized with synchronized media
> > > > > > to provide
> > > > > > > > not only the speech, but also non-speech
> > > information conveyed
> > > > > > > > through sound, including meaningful sound effects and
> > > > > > identification
> > > > > > > > of speakers.
> > > > > > > > </current>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > <proposed>
> > > > > > > > text that provides equivalents to the audio
> information in
> > > > > > > > synchronized media and is displayed concurrently with
> > > > the sound.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Note: Audio information includes speech and other
> > > information
> > > > > > > > conveyed using sound such as meaningful sound
> effects and
> > > > > > > > identification of speakers.
> > > > > > > > </proposed>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Andi
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >

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