Thread Subject: Re: Definition of captions

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From: Sean Hayes
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 3:20 PM

Can someone remind me what was wrong with the previously consensed:

"synchronized text equivalents for audio information. Captions are similar to subtitles in that they convey the content of spoken dialog, but also include text for non-spoken information such as important sound effects, music, laughter, and speaker identification and location. Captions should not obscure or obstruct relevant or key information. In some countries captions are called subtitles".

Which would be OK by me, although I actually prefer the CEA idea of 'visual equivalent'. Since it allows for DVB subtitling which is not 'text' but images of text; and contains the occasional picture (e.g where a musical note is used to indicate singing), and colour/font encoding for speaker identification. It also brings in the important concept of being able to actually see the text.

Which would give us:

"synchronized visual equivalents for audio information. Captions are similar to subtitles in that they convey the content of spoken dialog, but also include non-spoken information such as important sound effects, music, laughter, and speaker identification and location. Captions should not obscure or obstruct relevant or key information. In some countries captions are called subtitles".

Sean Hayes
Incubation Lab
Accessibility Business Unit
Microsoft

Office: +44 118 909 5867,
Mobile: +44 7875 091385


-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Andrew Kirkpatrick
Sent: 18 February 2008 21:17
To: TEITAC Committee
Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions

Slight modification:

Text which is equivalent to and synchronized with audio information,
representing spoken audio and any non-spoken information (e.g. speaker
identification, sound effects) necessary for comprehension.

And to Sean's question, adding captions to an audio file does not make
synchronized media - see definition.

(http://teitac.org/wiki/EWG:Draft_Jan_7#Synchronized_Media_.28Consensed.
29).

AWK

> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto:teitac-
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Mike Paciello
> Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 4:01 PM
> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
>
> Gregg/Sean -
>
> For the purpose of ensuring we have clarity during tomorrow's
> conference
> call, can we have a "final version" of this caption language...today.
>
> - Mike
>
> Mike Paciello
> Cell: +1.603.566.7713
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> > Of Gregg Vanderheiden
> > Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 2:13 PM
> > To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> > Cc: 'WCAG Editors'
> > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> >
> > I think that works. I was hoping for an ISO type definition
> > (where the definition can be inserted for the word in a
> > sentence and it will make sense
> > - even if it is long) so that it might have more general
> > application including in WCAG where we try to use ISO type
> > definitions.
> >
> > What you propose actually works in ISO format but it somewhat
awkward
> > because of the word 'providing'. Also you start out with
> > the text being
> > the equivalent and switch to the audio being equivalent half
> > way through. I guess if they are equivalent it works both
> > ways but the text is always less than the audio in fact.
> >
> > Finally do we want to use "simultaneously" or synchronized.
> > Synchronized was I believe the preferred word.
> >
> > How about:
> >
> > Text equivalent to audio information, where the equivalent
> > text is synchronized with the audio, and represents the
> > speech and any non-spoken information (e.g. speaker
> > identification, sound effects) necessary for comprehension.
> >
> >
> > If we want to use "simultaneously" we can substitute
> > "presented simultaneously" for 'synchronizes'.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Gregg
> > -- ------------------------------
> > Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
Sean
> > > Hayes
> > > Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 12:25 PM
> > > To: TEITAC Committee
> > > Cc: 'WCAG Editors'
> > > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > >
> > > You can only caption audio if you have a place to put the text! My
> > > assumption was that the addition of the text made it synchronised
> > > media. However yes to be completely general I would suggest:
> > >
> > > Text providing an equivalent to audio information, where
> > the text is
> > > presented simultaneously with its equivalent audio, and
> > represents the
> > > speech and any non-spoken information (e.g. speaker
identification,
> > > sound effects) necessary for comprehension.
> > >
> > > Sean Hayes
> > > Incubation Lab
> > > Accessibility Business Unit
> > > Microsoft
> > >
> > > Office: +44 118 909 5867,
> > > Mobile: +44 7875 091385
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> > Of Gregg
> > > Vanderheiden
> > > Sent: 17 February 2008 00:51
> > > To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> > > Cc: 'WCAG Editors'
> > > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > >
> > > I think you missed the email where someone pointed out that you
can
> > > caption audio. So captions are not just for synchronized media.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hmmmm
> > >
> > > How about
> > >
> > > synchronized text equivalent to audio information contained
> > in media,
> > > including speech and non-spoken information (e.g.
> > > speaker identification, sound effects) necessary for
> > comprehension of
> > > the media.
> > >
> > > Gregg
> > > -- ------------------------------
> > > Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> > Behalf Of Sean
> > > > Hayes
> > > > Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 5:15 AM
> > > > To: TEITAC Committee
> > > > Cc: 'WCAG Editors'
> > > > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > > >
> > > > How about:
> > > >
> > > > Text providing an equivalent to audio information contained in
> > > > synchronized media, where the text is presented
> > simultaneously with
> > > > its equivalent audio, and represents the speech and any
> > non-spoken
> > > > information (e.g. speaker identification, sound effects)
> > > necessary for
> > > > comprehension of the media.
> > > >
> > > > Sean Hayes
> > > > Incubation Lab
> > > > Accessibility Business Unit
> > > > Microsoft
> > > >
> > > > Office: +44 118 909 5867,
> > > > Mobile: +44 7875 091385
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> > > Of Gregg
> > > > Vanderheiden
> > > > Sent: 16 February 2008 01:42
> > > > To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> > > > Cc: 'WCAG Editors'
> > > > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > > >
> > > > Hmmm
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > This does not say that the text needs to be synchronized.
> > > > A transcript would meet this definition and shouldn't.
> > > >
> > > > That takes us to something with two 'synchronized's but not
> > > sure how
> > > > to avoid it.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Text providing a synchronized equivalent to audio information
> > > > contained in synchronized media, including speech and non-spoken
> > > > information (e.g.
> > > > speaker identification, sound effects) necessary for
> > > comprehension of
> > > > the media.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > OR
> > > >
> > > > synchronized text equivalent to audio information contained in
> > > > synchronized media, including speech and non-spoken
> > > information (e.g.
> > > > speaker identification, sound effects) necessary for
> > > comprehension of
> > > > the media.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Gregg
> > > > -- ------------------------------
> > > > Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > > > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> > > > Of Andrew
> > > > > Kirkpatrick
> > > > > Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 2:46 PM
> > > > > To: TEITAC Committee
> > > > > Cc: WCAG Editors
> > > > > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > > > >
> > > > > How about:
> > > > >
> > > > > Captions
> > > > > Text providing an equivalent to audio information contained in
> > > > > synchronized media, including speech and non-spoken
> > > > information (e.g.
> > > > > speaker identification, sound effects) necessary for
> > > > comprehension of
> > > > > the media.
> > > > >
> > > > > (no notes)
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > [mailto:teitac-
> > > > > > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Gregg
> > > Vanderheiden
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 3:41 PM
> > > > > > To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> > > > > > Cc: 'WCAG Editors'
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hmm
> > > > > > I think people wanted speaker ID in there. Any problem
> > > with that?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Gregg
> > > > > > -- ------------------------------ Gregg C Vanderheiden
Ph.D.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > > > > > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> > On Behalf Of
> > > > > > > Andrew Kirkpatrick
> > > > > > > Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 12:11 PM
> > > > > > > To: TEITAC Committee
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think that equivalent is good here. We can't say
> > "verbatim"
> > > > > > > unless we are only talking about speech, and we're
> > including
> > > > > > > non-spoken information. How about:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Captions:
> > > > > > > Text providing information equivalent to the audio
> > information
> > > > > > > contained in synchronized media, including speech,
> > sounds, and
> > > > > > > non-spoken information necessary for comprehension of
> > > the media.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > (no notes)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > AWK
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > > [mailto:teitac-
> > > > > > > > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
> > > Larry Goldberg
> > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 12:20 PM
> > > > > > > > To: TEITAC Committee
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This opens up the issue of verbatim and whose judgement
> > > > > it is to
> > > > > > > > decide "facilitation of readability."
> > > > > > > > I don't think we want to go there.
> > > > > > > > Better to simply say, "text should be a verbatim
> > > > > reflection of the
> > > > > > > > audio unless timing of the video does not allow it."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ... Larry ...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Feb 15, 2008, at 12:08 PM, Gregg Vanderheiden wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I think that equivalent does not mean identical. We
> > > > > have textual
> > > > > > > > equivalents to pictures and many other uses of the term
> > > > > that would
> > > > > > > > seem to indicate it did not need to be identical.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > However, we could add a note or just cover this and
> > > make this
> > > > > clear.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Note: Captions are often not verbatim to facilitate the
> > > > > readability
> > > > > > > > within the time allowed by the material.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > That would make it
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > <proposed>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > text that provides equivalents to the audio
> > information in
> > > > > > > > synchronized media and is displayed concurrently with
> > > > the sound.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Note: Audio information includes speech and other
> > > > > > > information conveyed
> > > > > > > > using sound such as meaningful sound effects and
> > > > > identification of
> > > > > > > > speakers.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Note: Captions are often not verbatim to facilitate the
> > > > > readability
> > > > > > > > within the time allowed by the material.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > </proposed>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Gregg
> > > > > > > > -- ------------------------------ Gregg C
> > Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > > > > > > > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> > > > > > > Behalf Of Sean
> > > > > > > > > Hayes
> > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 10:58 AM
> > > > > > > > > To: TEITAC Committee
> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > In the UK/EU captions (or as we call them here to
> > > > confuse the
> > > > > > > > > unwary, subtitles) on mainstream TV are very
> > > rarely verbatim
> > > > > > > > > transcripts of the speech, but are usually
> > cleaned up and
> > > > > > > edited for
> > > > > > > > > reading speed. So provided equivalent doesn't mean
> > > > > > > identical, I'd be
> > > > > > > > > happy with the proposed change.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Sean Hayes
> > > > > > > > > Incubation Lab
> > > > > > > > > Accessibility Business Unit Microsoft
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Office: +44 118 909 5867,
> > > > > > > > > Mobile: +44 7875 091385
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > > > > > > > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> > > > > > > Behalf Of Larry
> > > > > > > > > Goldberg
> > > > > > > > > Sent: 15 February 2008 16:28
> > > > > > > > > To: TEITAC Committee
> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I would guess that by now everyone knows that
> > > > caption text is
> > > > > > > > > supposed to exactly match audio and not be some loose
> > > > > > > summary, so I
> > > > > > > > > wouldn't argue vociferously against the proposed
> > > > > harmonization
> > > > > > > > > wording. I would just suggest that the use of
> > the phrase
> > > > > > > > > "equivalents to the audio information"
> > > > > > > > > might lead a novice to some odd textual display.
> Perhaps
> > > > > > > change that
> > > > > > > > > to:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > <newly proposed>
> > > > > > > > > text that MATCHES OR REFLECTS audio information in
> > > > > synchronized
> > > > > > > > > media and is displayed concurrently with the sound.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Note: Audio information includes speech and other
> > > > information
> > > > > > > > > conveyed using sound such as meaningful sound
> > effects and
> > > > > > > > > identification of speakers.
> > > > > > > > > </newly proposed>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > But as I said, in the interest of
> > harmonization, the WCAG
> > > > > > > verbiage
> > > > > > > > > should work.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ... Larry ...
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Feb 15, 2008, at 11:13 AM, Andi Snow-Weaver wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > In WCAG, we have received a comment that the
> > > wording in the
> > > > > > > > > definition of "caption text" is very awkward;
> > > > > specifically the
> > > > > > > > > wording "...
> > > > > > > > > synchronized
> > > > > > > > > with synchronized media...."
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > In our meeting yesterday, we settled on less
> > > > awkward wording.
> > > > > > > > > In the spirit of harmonization, we would like to
> propose
> > > > > > > that TEITAC
> > > > > > > > > adopt similar wording.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > <current>
> > > > > > > > > Text presented and synchronized with synchronized
media
> > > > > > > to provide
> > > > > > > > > not only the speech, but also non-speech
> > > > information conveyed
> > > > > > > > > through sound, including meaningful sound effects and
> > > > > > > identification
> > > > > > > > > of speakers.
> > > > > > > > > </current>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > <proposed>
> > > > > > > > > text that provides equivalents to the audio
> > information in
> > > > > > > > > synchronized media and is displayed concurrently with
> > > > > the sound.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Note: Audio information includes speech and other
> > > > information
> > > > > > > > > conveyed using sound such as meaningful sound
> > effects and
> > > > > > > > > identification of speakers.
> > > > > > > > > </proposed>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Andi
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >

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