Thread Subject: Re: Definition of captions

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From: Sean Hayes
Date: Tue, Feb 19 2008 11:00 AM

That's right, WCAG narrowly defines text as a coded form which is "programmatically accessible", we need to be clear what we mean by the term.
I replaced text with 'additional material' to indicate it is some additional coded form of captioning but not necessarily text (like DVB sub-picture for example) which is not part of the audio and video (but may or may not be carried in the same package) and which can be added to the final output by the player.

Sean Hayes
Incubation Lab
Accessibility Business Unit
Microsoft

Office: +44 118 909 5867,
Mobile: +44 7875 091385

From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Larry Goldberg
Sent: 19 February 2008 16:17
To: TEITAC Committee
Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions

So by "text" you mean data that gets turned into characters by a rendering engine, right?
Because most people would look at bitmapped subtitles and call that text as well, but your definition seems to call that "images of text."

I'm not sure what is meant by this note:
"Captions can be additional material that can be turned on and off "

That is, what is the "additional material" referencing?

... Larry ...



On Feb 19, 2008, at 10:56 AM, Sean Hayes wrote:


I notice we don't have a definition in TEITAC for text, which we do in WCAG.
If we adopt the WCAG definition for text in TEITAC, this will prevent both DVD subpicture captioning and DVB subtitling from being defined as captions, I think that is a problem and I don't think we can have note 2 extending the normative text.
If we don't adopt it and allow the definition of text to include images of text, then this leads to divergence from WCAG. It also requires all information, including that which is typically done with placement, font or colour to be given as text.

While it would always be an advantage for captions to be text, in order to accommodate AT; in practice I don't think the industry is anywhere near there yet, and thus I feel even stronger that we need to adopt the term visual alternative in the normative section, so:
<proposed>

Captions
synchronized visual or text equivalents for audio information including both dialog and important non-dialog audio information

NOTE: Captions are similar to dialog only subtitles except caption convey not only the content of spoken dialog, but also equivalents for other (non-spoken) audio information including important sound effects, music, laughter, speaker identification and location, etc.
NOTE: Captions can be additional material that can be turned on and off (closed captions) or images of text embedded in video (open captions).
NOTE: Captions should not obscure or obstruct relevant or key information.
NOTE: In some countries captions are called subtitles.

<end proposed>



Sean Hayes
Incubation Lab
Accessibility Business Unit
Microsoft

Office: +44 118 909 5867,
Mobile: +44 7875 091385

From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Gregg Vanderheiden
Sent: 19 February 2008 14:54
To: 'TEITAC Committee'
Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions

In thinking this over and our past discussions - it is probably important to include the "more than dialog" aspect in the normative definition rather than just in an informative note. That would change it slightly to read:


<proposed>

Captions
synchronized text equivalents for audio information including both dialog and important non-dialog audio information

NOTE: Captions are similar to dialog only subtitles except caption convey not only the content of spoken dialog, but also text equivalents for other (non-spoken) audio information including important sound effects, music, laughter, speaker identification and location, etc.
NOTE: Captions can be real text that can be turned on and off (closed captions) or images of text embedded in video (open captions).
NOTE: Captions should not obscure or obstruct relevant or key information.
NOTE: In some countries captions are called subtitles.

<end proposed>


Gregg
-- ------------------------------
Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.

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