Thread Subject: Re: Definition of captions
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From: Gregg Vanderheiden
Date: Wed, Feb 20 2008 11:55 AM
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Actually Larry - both of them should be done by next week or week after so
the timelines are the same. And there is much reason to have harmonized
text.
So yes we are trying (both TEITAC and WCAG) to listen to each other and
come up with common language. It is much harder for everyone if we don't.
If we use slightly different words to say the same thing - it is less severe
but can be just as confusing.
(we also have many of the same people on both committees who are active on
this so.. (Andi, Andrew, Sean, Gregg, .)
So lets see what we can do.
Gregg
-- ------------------------------
Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
_____
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Larry
Goldberg
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 7:56 AM
To: TEITAC Committee
Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
I don't think this TEITAC discussion can be contingent on WCAG decisions,
can it? That's a whole separate deliberative process. It can be brought to
the WCAG group, but their decision-making process is wholely separate and on
a different timeline from TEITAC's.
Judy, correct me if I'm wrong...
... Larry ...
On Feb 20, 2008, at 5:06 AM, Sean Hayes wrote:
The proposal below (yours with one minor tweak removing the word text in
NOTE 1) meets my needs for captions if adopted both in TEITAC and WCAG:
<proposed - REVISED>
Captions
Synchronized visual or text equivalents for audio information including both
dialog and important non-dialog audio information
NOTE: Captions are similar to dialog-only subtitles except captions convey
not only the content of spoken dialog, but also equivalents for other
(non-spoken) audio information important for understanding including
important sound effects, music, laughter, speaker identification and
location.
NOTE: Captions can be supplemental visual or text equivalents that can be
turned on and off (closed captions) or images of text and embedded in video
(open captions).
NOTE: Captions should not obscure or obstruct relevant or key information.
NOTE: In some countries captions are called subtitles.
<end proposed>
I believe that is a technical change to WCAG; as the previous definition did
not allow images - but no matter if this new language is adopted.
That still leaves the issue of whether we need a formal definition of text
in TEITAC to match that in WCAG - I believe we do in order to ensure other
provisions in the draft have the same meaning as in WCAG.
Sean Hayes
Incubation Lab
Accessibility Business Unit
Microsoft
Office: +44 118 909 5867,
Mobile: +44 7875 091385
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Gregg
Vanderheiden
Sent: 20 February 2008 00:16
To: 'TEITAC Committee'
Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
Sean,
WCAG DOES allow images of text as captions. By allowing open captioning
we are by definition allowing images of text as captions.
There is some confusion because of the definition of TEXT in WCAG. So if
you look at the new proposed definition of captions you will see that it
already includes your 'image' language.
So look again and then comment back if you still have a concern. This
language is being proposed both in TEITAC and WCAG
In face since WCAG is next (this Thursday ) take a crack at that copy (its
on the survey) and see if it doesn't address your issues.
Gregg
-- ------------------------------
Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Sean Hayes
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 3:46 PM
To: TEITAC Committee
Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
No we are not OK.
WCAG does not preclude images of text AS CAPTIONS. However it does not
include "images of text" in the definition of text. The normative part of
your wording says it has to be text & you can't change that in a note.
So the question remains, does TEITAC adopt the general notion of text, which
as Larry suggests which would include bitmaps; or the WCAG definition?
If not the WCAG definition, then 3-F for example is no longer harmonised
with WCAG and has a totally different meaning.
If the WCAG definition then there is a problem and we need my language.
Sean Hayes
Incubation Lab
Accessibility Business Unit
Microsoft
Office: +44 118 909 5867,
Mobile: +44 7875 091385
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Gregg
Vanderheiden
Sent: 19 February 2008 18:08
To: 'TEITAC Committee'
Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
WCAG does not preclude images of text.
So we are ok there.
That is the purpose of note 2 below to ensure that this is not
misunderstood.
Gregg
-- ------------------------------
Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Sean Hayes
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 9:57 AM
To: TEITAC Committee
Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
I notice we don't have a definition in TEITAC for text, which we do in WCAG.
If we adopt the WCAG definition for text in TEITAC, this will prevent both
DVD subpicture captioning and DVB subtitling from being defined as captions,
I think that is a problem and I don't think we can have note 2 extending the
normative text.
If we don't adopt it and allow the definition of text to include images of
text, then this leads to divergence from WCAG. It also requires all
information, including that which is typically done with placement, font or
colour to be given as text.
While it would always be an advantage for captions to be text, in order to
accommodate AT; in practice I don't think the industry is anywhere near
there yet, and thus I feel even stronger that we need to adopt the term
visual alternative in the normative section, so:
<proposed>
Captions
synchronized visual or text equivalents for audio information including both
dialog and important non-dialog audio information
NOTE: Captions are similar to dialog only subtitles except caption convey
not only the content of spoken dialog, but also equivalents for other
(non-spoken) audio information including important sound effects, music,
laughter, speaker identification and location, etc.
NOTE: Captions can be additional material that can be turned on and off
(closed captions) or images of text embedded in video (open captions).
NOTE: Captions should not obscure or obstruct relevant or key information.
NOTE: In some countries captions are called subtitles.
<end proposed>
Sean Hayes
Incubation Lab
Accessibility Business Unit
Microsoft
Office: +44 118 909 5867,
Mobile: +44 7875 091385
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Gregg
Vanderheiden
Sent: 19 February 2008 14:54
To: 'TEITAC Committee'
Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
In thinking this over and our past discussions - it is probably important to
include the "more than dialog" aspect in the normative definition rather
than just in an informative note. That would change it slightly to read:
<proposed>
Captions
synchronized text equivalents for audio information including both dialog
and important non-dialog audio information
NOTE: Captions are similar to dialog only subtitles except caption convey
not only the content of spoken dialog, but also text equivalents for other
(non-spoken) audio information including important sound effects, music,
laughter, speaker identification and location, etc.
NOTE: Captions can be real text that can be turned on and off (closed
captions) or images of text embedded in video (open captions).
NOTE: Captions should not obscure or obstruct relevant or key information.
NOTE: In some countries captions are called subtitles.
<end proposed>
Gregg
-- ------------------------------
Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
_____
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Gregg
Vanderheiden
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 10:07 PM
To: 'TEITAC Committee'
Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
Interesting suggestion
Lets see
1 - most of this would have to be notes so that would make it.
Captions
synchronized text equivalents for audio information
NOTE: Captions are similar to subtitles in that they convey the content of
spoken dialog, but also include text for non-spoken information such as
important sound effects, music, laughter, and speaker identification and
location.
NOTE: Captions should not obscure or obstruct relevant or key information.
NOTE: In some countries captions are called subtitles.
I think we got off on other definitions because of a call to the list for a
definition for Captions. Perhaps our old definition was lost.
Here is what is in WCAG - but they/we are not happy with that either.
Captions (from WCAG)
text presented and synchronized with synchronized media
<http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/#synchronizedmediadef> to provide not only
the speech, but also non-speech information conveyed through sound,
including meaningful sound effects and identification of speakers
Note 1: In some countries, the term "subtitle" is used to refer to dialogue
only and "captions" is used as the term for dialogue plus sounds and speaker
identification. In other countries, subtitle (or its translation) is used to
refer to both.
Note 2: Audio descriptions <http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/#audiodescdef>
can be, but do not need to be, captioned since they are descriptions of
information that is already presented visually.
I would suggest just a slight change to the TEITAC version and then we use
it.
<proposed>
Captions
synchronized text equivalents for audio information
NOTE: Captions are similar to dialog only subtitles except caption convey
not only the content of spoken dialog, but also text equivalents for other
(non-spoken) audio information including important sound effects, music,
laughter, speaker identification and location, etc.
NOTE: Captions can be real text that can be turned on and off (closed
captions) or images of text embedded in video (open captions).
NOTE: Captions should not obscure or obstruct relevant or key information.
NOTE: In some countries captions are called subtitles.
<end proposed>
Gregg
-- ------------------------------
Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> Of Sean Hayes
> Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 4:20 PM
> To: TEITAC Committee
> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
>
> Can someone remind me what was wrong with the previously consensed:
>
> "synchronized text equivalents for audio information.
> Captions are similar to subtitles in that they convey the
> content of spoken dialog, but also include text for
> non-spoken information such as important sound effects,
> music, laughter, and speaker identification and location.
> Captions should not obscure or obstruct relevant or key
> information. In some countries captions are called subtitles".
>
> Which would be OK by me, although I actually prefer the CEA
> idea of 'visual equivalent'. Since it allows for DVB
> subtitling which is not 'text' but images of text; and
> contains the occasional picture (e.g where a musical note is
> used to indicate singing), and colour/font encoding for
> speaker identification. It also brings in the important
> concept of being able to actually see the text.
>
> Which would give us:
>
> "synchronized visual equivalents for audio information.
> Captions are similar to subtitles in that they convey the
> content of spoken dialog, but also include non-spoken
> information such as important sound effects, music, laughter,
> and speaker identification and location. Captions should not
> obscure or obstruct relevant or key information. In some
> countries captions are called subtitles".
>
> Sean Hayes
> Incubation Lab
> Accessibility Business Unit
> Microsoft
>
> Office: +44 118 909 5867,
> Mobile: +44 7875 091385
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> Of Andrew Kirkpatrick
> Sent: 18 February 2008 21:17
> To: TEITAC Committee
> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
>
> Slight modification:
>
> Text which is equivalent to and synchronized with audio
> information, representing spoken audio and any non-spoken
> information (e.g. speaker identification, sound effects)
> necessary for comprehension.
>
> And to Sean's question, adding captions to an audio file does
> not make synchronized media - see definition.
>
> (http://teitac.org/wiki/EWG:Draft_Jan_7#Synchronized_Media_.28
> Consensed.
> 29).
>
> AWK
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto:teitac-
> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Mike Paciello
> > Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 4:01 PM
> > To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> >
> > Gregg/Sean -
> >
> > For the purpose of ensuring we have clarity during tomorrow's
> > conference call, can we have a "final version" of this caption
> > language...today.
> >
> > - Mike
> >
> > Mike Paciello
> > Cell: +1.603.566.7713
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Gregg
> > > Vanderheiden
> > > Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 2:13 PM
> > > To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> > > Cc: 'WCAG Editors'
> > > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > >
> > > I think that works. I was hoping for an ISO type
> definition (where
> > > the definition can be inserted for the word in a sentence and it
> > > will make sense
> > > - even if it is long) so that it might have more general
> > > application including in WCAG where we try to use ISO type
> > > definitions.
> > >
> > > What you propose actually works in ISO format but it somewhat
> awkward
> > > because of the word 'providing'. Also you start out with
> > > the text being
> > > the equivalent and switch to the audio being equivalent half way
> > > through. I guess if they are equivalent it works both
> ways but the
> > > text is always less than the audio in fact.
> > >
> > > Finally do we want to use "simultaneously" or synchronized.
> > > Synchronized was I believe the preferred word.
> > >
> > > How about:
> > >
> > > Text equivalent to audio information, where the equivalent
> > > text is synchronized with the audio, and represents the
> > > speech and any non-spoken information (e.g. speaker
> > > identification, sound effects) necessary for comprehension.
> > >
> > >
> > > If we want to use "simultaneously" we can substitute "presented
> > > simultaneously" for 'synchronizes'.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Gregg
> > > -- ------------------------------
> > > Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
> Sean
> > > > Hayes
> > > > Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 12:25 PM
> > > > To: TEITAC Committee
> > > > Cc: 'WCAG Editors'
> > > > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > > >
> > > > You can only caption audio if you have a place to put
> the text! My
> > > > assumption was that the addition of the text made it
> synchronised
> > > > media. However yes to be completely general I would suggest:
> > > >
> > > > Text providing an equivalent to audio information, where
> > > the text is
> > > > presented simultaneously with its equivalent audio, and
> > > represents the
> > > > speech and any non-spoken information (e.g. speaker
> identification,
> > > > sound effects) necessary for comprehension.
> > > >
> > > > Sean Hayes
> > > > Incubation Lab
> > > > Accessibility Business Unit
> > > > Microsoft
> > > >
> > > > Office: +44 118 909 5867,
> > > > Mobile: +44 7875 091385
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> > > Of Gregg
> > > > Vanderheiden
> > > > Sent: 17 February 2008 00:51
> > > > To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> > > > Cc: 'WCAG Editors'
> > > > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > > >
> > > > I think you missed the email where someone pointed out that you
> can
> > > > caption audio. So captions are not just for synchronized media.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hmmmm
> > > >
> > > > How about
> > > >
> > > > synchronized text equivalent to audio information contained
> > > in media,
> > > > including speech and non-spoken information (e.g.
> > > > speaker identification, sound effects) necessary for
> > > comprehension of
> > > > the media.
> > > >
> > > > Gregg
> > > > -- ------------------------------ Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > > > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> > > Behalf Of Sean
> > > > > Hayes
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 5:15 AM
> > > > > To: TEITAC Committee
> > > > > Cc: 'WCAG Editors'
> > > > > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > > > >
> > > > > How about:
> > > > >
> > > > > Text providing an equivalent to audio information contained in
> > > > > synchronized media, where the text is presented
> > > simultaneously with
> > > > > its equivalent audio, and represents the speech and any
> > > non-spoken
> > > > > information (e.g. speaker identification, sound effects)
> > > > necessary for
> > > > > comprehension of the media.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sean Hayes
> > > > > Incubation Lab
> > > > > Accessibility Business Unit
> > > > > Microsoft
> > > > >
> > > > > Office: +44 118 909 5867,
> > > > > Mobile: +44 7875 091385
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > > > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> > > > Of Gregg
> > > > > Vanderheiden
> > > > > Sent: 16 February 2008 01:42
> > > > > To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> > > > > Cc: 'WCAG Editors'
> > > > > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > > > >
> > > > > Hmmm
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > This does not say that the text needs to be synchronized.
> > > > > A transcript would meet this definition and shouldn't.
> > > > >
> > > > > That takes us to something with two 'synchronized's but not
> > > > sure how
> > > > > to avoid it.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Text providing a synchronized equivalent to audio information
> > > > > contained in synchronized media, including speech and
> non-spoken
> > > > > information (e.g.
> > > > > speaker identification, sound effects) necessary for
> > > > comprehension of
> > > > > the media.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > OR
> > > > >
> > > > > synchronized text equivalent to audio information contained in
> > > > > synchronized media, including speech and non-spoken
> > > > information (e.g.
> > > > > speaker identification, sound effects) necessary for
> > > > comprehension of
> > > > > the media.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Gregg
> > > > > -- ------------------------------
> > > > > Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > > > > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> > > > > Of Andrew
> > > > > > Kirkpatrick
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 2:46 PM
> > > > > > To: TEITAC Committee
> > > > > > Cc: WCAG Editors
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > > > > >
> > > > > > How about:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Captions
> > > > > > Text providing an equivalent to audio information
> contained in
> > > > > > synchronized media, including speech and non-spoken
> > > > > information (e.g.
> > > > > > speaker identification, sound effects) necessary for
> > > > > comprehension of
> > > > > > the media.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > (no notes)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > [mailto:teitac-
> > > > > > > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Gregg
> > > > Vanderheiden
> > > > > > > Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 3:41 PM
> > > > > > > To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> > > > > > > Cc: 'WCAG Editors'
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hmm
> > > > > > > I think people wanted speaker ID in there. Any problem
> > > > with that?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Gregg
> > > > > > > -- ------------------------------ Gregg C Vanderheiden
> Ph.D.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > > > > > > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> > > On Behalf Of
> > > > > > > > Andrew Kirkpatrick
> > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 12:11 PM
> > > > > > > > To: TEITAC Committee
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I think that equivalent is good here. We can't say
> > > "verbatim"
> > > > > > > > unless we are only talking about speech, and we're
> > > including
> > > > > > > > non-spoken information. How about:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Captions:
> > > > > > > > Text providing information equivalent to the audio
> > > information
> > > > > > > > contained in synchronized media, including speech,
> > > sounds, and
> > > > > > > > non-spoken information necessary for comprehension of
> > > > the media.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > (no notes)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > AWK
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > > > [mailto:teitac-
> > > > > > > > > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
> > > > Larry Goldberg
> > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 12:20 PM
> > > > > > > > > To: TEITAC Committee
> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition of captions
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > This opens up the issue of verbatim and whose
> judgement
> > > > > > it is to
> > > > > > > > > decide "facilitation of readability."
> > > > > > > > > I don't think we want to go there.
> > > > > > > > > Better to simply say, "text should be a verbatim
> > > > > > reflection of the
> > > > > > > > > audio unless timing of the video does not allow it."
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ... Larry ...
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Feb 15, 2008, at 12:08 PM, Gregg
> Vanderheiden wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I think that equivalent does not mean identical. We
> > > > > > have textual
> > > > > > > > > equivalents to pictures and many other uses
> of the term
> > > > > > that would
> > > > > > > > > seem to indicate it did not need to be identical.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > However, we could add a note or just cover this and
> > > > make this
> > > > > > clear.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Note: Captions are often not verbatim to
> facilitate the
> > > > > > readability
> > > > > > > > > within the time allowed by the material.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > That would make it
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > <proposed>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > text that provides equivalents to the audio
> > > information in
> > > > > > > > > synchronized media and is displayed concurrently with
> > > > > the sound.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Note: Audio information includes speech and other
> > > > > > > > information conveyed
> > > > > > > > > using sound such as meaningful sound effects and
> > > > > > identification of
> > > > > > > > > speakers.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Note: Captions are often not verbatim to
> facilitate the
> > > > > > readability
> > > > > > > > > within the time allowed by the material.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > </proposed>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Gregg
> > > > > > > > > -- ------------------------------ Gregg C
> > > Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > > > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > > > > > > > > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> > > > > > > > Behalf Of Sean
> > > > > > > > > > Hayes
> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 10:58 AM
> > > > > > > > > > To: TEITAC Committee
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition
> of captions
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > In the UK/EU captions (or as we call them here to
> > > > > confuse the
> > > > > > > > > > unwary, subtitles) on mainstream TV are very
> > > > rarely verbatim
> > > > > > > > > > transcripts of the speech, but are usually
> > > cleaned up and
> > > > > > > > edited for
> > > > > > > > > > reading speed. So provided equivalent doesn't mean
> > > > > > > > identical, I'd be
> > > > > > > > > > happy with the proposed change.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Sean Hayes
> > > > > > > > > > Incubation Lab
> > > > > > > > > > Accessibility Business Unit Microsoft
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Office: +44 118 909 5867,
> > > > > > > > > > Mobile: +44 7875 091385
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > > > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > > > > > > > > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> > > > > > > > Behalf Of Larry
> > > > > > > > > > Goldberg
> > > > > > > > > > Sent: 15 February 2008 16:28
> > > > > > > > > > To: TEITAC Committee
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Definition
> of captions
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I would guess that by now everyone knows that
> > > > > caption text is
> > > > > > > > > > supposed to exactly match audio and not be
> some loose
> > > > > > > > summary, so I
> > > > > > > > > > wouldn't argue vociferously against the proposed
> > > > > > harmonization
> > > > > > > > > > wording. I would just suggest that the use of
> > > the phrase
> > > > > > > > > > "equivalents to the audio information"
> > > > > > > > > > might lead a novice to some odd textual display.
> > Perhaps
> > > > > > > > change that
> > > > > > > > > > to:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > <newly proposed>
> > > > > > > > > > text that MATCHES OR REFLECTS audio information in
> > > > > > synchronized
> > > > > > > > > > media and is displayed concurrently with the sound.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Note: Audio information includes speech and other
> > > > > information
> > > > > > > > > > conveyed using sound such as meaningful sound
> > > effects and
> > > > > > > > > > identification of speakers.
> > > > > > > > > > </newly proposed>
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > But as I said, in the interest of
> > > harmonization, the WCAG
> > > > > > > > verbiage
> > > > > > > > > > should work.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > ... Larry ...
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Feb 15, 2008, at 11:13 AM, Andi
> Snow-Weaver wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > In WCAG, we have received a comment that the
> > > > wording in the
> > > > > > > > > > definition of "caption text" is very awkward;
> > > > > > specifically the
> > > > > > > > > > wording "...
> > > > > > > > > > synchronized
> > > > > > > > > > with synchronized media...."
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > In our meeting yesterday, we settled on less
> > > > > awkward wording.
> > > > > > > > > > In the spirit of harmonization, we would like to
> > propose
> > > > > > > > that TEITAC
> > > > > > > > > > adopt similar wording.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > <current>
> > > > > > > > > > Text presented and synchronized with synchronized
> media
> > > > > > > > to provide
> > > > > > > > > > not only the speech, but also non-speech
> > > > > information conveyed
> > > > > > > > > > through sound, including meaningful sound
> effects and
> > > > > > > > identification
> > > > > > > > > > of speakers.
> > > > > > > > > > </current>
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > <proposed>
> > > > > > > > > > text that provides equivalents to the audio
> > > information in
> > > > > > > > > > synchronized media and is displayed
> concurrently with
> > > > > > the sound.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Note: Audio information includes speech and other
> > > > > information
> > > > > > > > > > conveyed using sound such as meaningful sound
> > > effects and
> > > > > > > > > > identification of speakers.
> > > > > > > > > > </proposed>
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Andi
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
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