Thread Subject: Suggested language for mechanism to enable/disable captions

Return to this mailing list's archives

From: Andi Snow-Weaver
Date: Tue, Oct 23 2007 12:05 PM
Subject: Suggested language for mechanism to enable/disable captions

Here is the draft text I proposed during today's TEITAC meeting:

In products that receive or display analog or digital television, the
controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one location, to the
controls needed to control volume, or perform program selection, where the
ability to control these features is otherwise provided.

Andi

From: Gregg Vanderheiden
Date: Wed, Oct 24 2007 9:30 AM
Subject: Re: Suggested language for mechanism toenable/disable captions

Thanks

Per request from the chairs here is a summary of the points made in my
comments:

* Current language uses "Analog or digital TV". But things are changing
so fast that it is not clear what we will be using in 5 or 10 years and
whether it will be called television. Or whether much of it won't be
called television.

Why not require all players of material that may contain captions to have a
captions on/off switch near the volume control. It would be easy, small and
could be ubiquitous as well as very handy for all users.


Gregg
-- ------------------------------
Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> Of Andi Snow-Weaver
> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:00 PM
> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> Subject: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
> toenable/disable captions
>
>
> Here is the draft text I proposed during today's TEITAC meeting:
>
> In products that receive or display analog or digital
> television, the controls must be comparable in prominence, in
> at least one location, to the controls needed to control
> volume, or perform program selection, where the ability to
> control these features is otherwise provided.
>
> Andi
>
>

From: Gregg Vanderheiden
Date: Wed, Oct 24 2007 9:35 AM
Subject: Re: Suggested language for mechanism toenable/disable captions

Thanks

Per request from the chairs here is a summary of the points made in my
comments:

* Current language uses "Analog or digital TV". But things are changing
so fast that it is not clear what we will be using in 5 or 10 years and
whether it will be called television. Or whether much of it won't be
called television.

Why not require all players of material that may contain captions to have a
captions on/off switch near the volume control. It would be easy, small and
could be ubiquitous as well as very handy for all users.


Gregg
-- ------------------------------
Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> Of Andi Snow-Weaver
> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:00 PM
> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> Subject: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
> toenable/disable captions
>
>
> Here is the draft text I proposed during today's TEITAC meeting:
>
> In products that receive or display analog or digital
> television, the controls must be comparable in prominence, in
> at least one location, to the controls needed to control
> volume, or perform program selection, where the ability to
> control these features is otherwise provided.
>
> Andi
>
>

From: Hoffman, Allen
Date: Wed, Oct 24 2007 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: Suggested language for mechanism toenable/disable captions

Just a question:

Would this include a PC that can play DVD(s)? Is it dependent upon
having a mechanical or touch operated volume control? Should a mute
button activate captioning or de-activate captioning? I liked Andi's
language for this item myself. I believe the initial constraint for
analog/digital television is those kinds of synchronized media covered
as "broadcast" by FCC, but I could be wrong.




Allen Hoffman -- = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; v: 202-447-0303

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Gregg
Vanderheiden
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:29 AM
To: 'TEITAC Committee'
Cc: 'TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee'
Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
toenable/disable captions

Thanks

Per request from the chairs here is a summary of the points made in my
comments:

* Current language uses "Analog or digital TV". But things are
changing
so fast that it is not clear what we will be using in 5 or 10 years and
whether it will be called television. Or whether much of it won't be
called television.

Why not require all players of material that may contain captions to
have a captions on/off switch near the volume control. It would be
easy, small and could be ubiquitous as well as very handy for all users.


Gregg
-- ------------------------------
Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Andi
> Snow-Weaver
> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:00 PM
> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> Subject: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
> toenable/disable captions
>
>
> Here is the draft text I proposed during today's TEITAC meeting:
>
> In products that receive or display analog or digital television, the
> controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one location,
> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
> selection, where the ability to control these features is otherwise
> provided.
>
> Andi
>
>

From: Takemura, Michael (HP Accessibility)
Date: Wed, Oct 24 2007 9:55 AM
Subject: Enable/disable Captions

Does this cover desktop/notebook/handheld computers and/or phones (or
other future devices)
that "display analog or digital television" ?

In particular, the language seems to cover "Media PC's" that do display
analog and digital television,
some which have very small remotes that may not support:
"controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one location,
to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
selection, where the ability to control these features is otherwise
provided."

Another question: Are we discussing physical controls ? or does this
also include "on screen" controls ?
or both ?

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Hoffman,
Allen
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:39 AM
To: TEITAC Committee
Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for
mechanismtoenable/disable captions

Just a question:

Would this include a PC that can play DVD(s)? Is it dependent upon
having a mechanical or touch operated volume control? Should a mute
button activate captioning or de-activate captioning? I liked Andi's
language for this item myself. I believe the initial constraint for
analog/digital television is those kinds of synchronized media covered
as "broadcast" by FCC, but I could be wrong.

Allen Hoffman -- = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; v: 202-447-0303

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Gregg
Vanderheiden
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:29 AM
To: 'TEITAC Committee'
Cc: 'TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee'
Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
toenable/disable captions

Thanks

Per request from the chairs here is a summary of the points made in my
comments:

* Current language uses "Analog or digital TV". But things are
changing
so fast that it is not clear what we will be using in 5 or 10 years and
whether it will be called television. Or whether much of it won't be
called television.

Why not require all players of material that may contain captions to
have a captions on/off switch near the volume control. It would be
easy, small and could be ubiquitous as well as very handy for all users.


Gregg
-- ------------------------------
Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Andi
Snow-Weaver
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:00 PM
To: 'TEITAC Committee'
Subject: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
toenable/disable captions


Here is the draft text I proposed during today's TEITAC meeting:

In products that receive or display analog or digital television, the
controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one location,
to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
selection, where the ability to control these features is otherwise
provided.

Andi

From: Sean Hayes
Date: Wed, Oct 24 2007 10:00 AM
Subject: Re: Suggested language for mechanism toenable/disable captions

Analog and Digital Television is precisely characterised in our definitions as being "equipment regulated by the FCC", where closed captions of a specific form are well established. I don't think we understand the future of media playback well enough to apply this more broadly at this point.

Sean Hayes
Incubation Lab
Accessibility Business Unit
Microsoft

Office: +44 118 909 5867,
Mobile: +44 7875 091385


-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Gregg Vanderheiden
Sent: 24 October 2007 16:29
To: 'TEITAC Committee'
Cc: 'TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee'
Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism toenable/disable captions

Thanks

Per request from the chairs here is a summary of the points made in my
comments:

* Current language uses "Analog or digital TV". But things are changing
so fast that it is not clear what we will be using in 5 or 10 years and
whether it will be called television. Or whether much of it won't be
called television.

Why not require all players of material that may contain captions to have a
captions on/off switch near the volume control. It would be easy, small and
could be ubiquitous as well as very handy for all users.


Gregg
-- ------------------------------
Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> Of Andi Snow-Weaver
> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:00 PM
> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> Subject: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
> toenable/disable captions
>
>
> Here is the draft text I proposed during today's TEITAC meeting:
>
> In products that receive or display analog or digital
> television, the controls must be comparable in prominence, in
> at least one location, to the controls needed to control
> volume, or perform program selection, where the ability to
> control these features is otherwise provided.
>
> Andi
>
>

From: Peter Korn
Date: Wed, Oct 24 2007 10:15 AM
Subject: Re: Enable/disable Captions

Hi Gregg, gang,

Another question: what about situations when playback of videos is
relatively incidental to the function of the device, *and* the device
has only a very few keys. Many cell phones and PDAs are now playing
videos (e.g. the iPhone with YouTube). I believe an argument was made
that as remote controls have so many buttons, requiring a "CC" button
near the volume or mute button should not be a significant demand.
Whether or not that is true, it certainly seems like adding a "CC"
button to a cell phone that is capable of playing videos is in fact a
rather large change - especially for a phone that has perhaps only a
very few buttons to begin with (though one of which is volume).


Regards,

Peter Korn
Accessibility Architect,
Sun Microsystems, Inc.

> Does this cover desktop/notebook/handheld computers and/or phones (or
> other future devices)
> that "display analog or digital television" ?
>
> In particular, the language seems to cover "Media PC's" that do display
> analog and digital television,
> some which have very small remotes that may not support:
> "controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one location,
> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
> selection, where the ability to control these features is otherwise
> provided."
>
> Another question: Are we discussing physical controls ? or does this
> also include "on screen" controls ?
> or both ?
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Hoffman,
> Allen
> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:39 AM
> To: TEITAC Committee
> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for
> mechanismtoenable/disable captions
>
> Just a question:
>
> Would this include a PC that can play DVD(s)? Is it dependent upon
> having a mechanical or touch operated volume control? Should a mute
> button activate captioning or de-activate captioning? I liked Andi's
> language for this item myself. I believe the initial constraint for
> analog/digital television is those kinds of synchronized media covered
> as "broadcast" by FCC, but I could be wrong.
>
> Allen Hoffman -- = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; v: 202-447-0303
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Gregg
> Vanderheiden
> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:29 AM
> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> Cc: 'TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee'
> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
> toenable/disable captions
>
> Thanks
>
> Per request from the chairs here is a summary of the points made in my
> comments:
>
> * Current language uses "Analog or digital TV". But things are
> changing
> so fast that it is not clear what we will be using in 5 or 10 years and
> whether it will be called television. Or whether much of it won't be
> called television.
>
> Why not require all players of material that may contain captions to
> have a captions on/off switch near the volume control. It would be
> easy, small and could be ubiquitous as well as very handy for all users.
>
>
> Gregg
> -- ------------------------------
> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Andi
> Snow-Weaver
> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:00 PM
> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> Subject: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
> toenable/disable captions
>
>
> Here is the draft text I proposed during today's TEITAC meeting:
>
> In products that receive or display analog or digital television, the
> controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one location,
> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
> selection, where the ability to control these features is otherwise
> provided.
>
> Andi
>

From: Gregg Vanderheiden
Date: Wed, Oct 24 2007 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: Enable/disable Captions

The iPhone is a good example.

The full screen is used for playback. But touching the screen anywhere calls
up the play controls including the ability to bookmark it play stop/pause or
jump to end and also to email it . These are the same controls that pop up
when viewing a TV show (except for bookmark and email).

But there is no way find any way to call up captions. Yet it would be easy
to add a caption button to the display (which disappears a few seconds
later). In fact I would bet that many people would use these to view the TV
shows without audio at times - or when noisy. (and you-tube sometimes as
well if they were captioned.)


Gregg
-- ------------------------------
Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> Of Peter Korn
> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:13 AM
> To: TEITAC Committee
> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>
> Hi Gregg, gang,
>
> Another question: what about situations when playback of
> videos is relatively incidental to the function of the
> device, *and* the device has only a very few keys. Many cell
> phones and PDAs are now playing videos (e.g. the iPhone with
> YouTube). I believe an argument was made that as remote
> controls have so many buttons, requiring a "CC" button near
> the volume or mute button should not be a significant demand.
> Whether or not that is true, it certainly seems like adding a "CC"
> button to a cell phone that is capable of playing videos is
> in fact a rather large change - especially for a phone that
> has perhaps only a very few buttons to begin with (though one
> of which is volume).
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Peter Korn
> Accessibility Architect,
> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>
> > Does this cover desktop/notebook/handheld computers and/or
> phones (or
> > other future devices) that "display analog or digital television" ?
> >
> > In particular, the language seems to cover "Media PC's" that do
> > display analog and digital television, some which have very small
> > remotes that may not support:
> > "controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one
> location,
> > to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
> > selection, where the ability to control these features is
> otherwise
> > provided."
> >
> > Another question: Are we discussing physical controls ? or
> does this
> > also include "on screen" controls ?
> > or both ?
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
> > Hoffman, Allen
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:39 AM
> > To: TEITAC Committee
> > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for
> > mechanismtoenable/disable captions
> >
> > Just a question:
> >
> > Would this include a PC that can play DVD(s)? Is it dependent upon
> > having a mechanical or touch operated volume control?
> Should a mute
> > button activate captioning or de-activate captioning? I
> liked Andi's
> > language for this item myself. I believe the initial
> constraint for
> > analog/digital television is those kinds of synchronized
> media covered
> > as "broadcast" by FCC, but I could be wrong.
> >
> > Allen Hoffman -- = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; v: 202-447-0303
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> Of Gregg
> > Vanderheiden
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:29 AM
> > To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> > Cc: 'TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee'
> > Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
> > toenable/disable captions
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Per request from the chairs here is a summary of the
> points made in
> > my
> > comments:
> >
> > * Current language uses "Analog or digital TV". But things are
> > changing
> > so fast that it is not clear what we will be using in 5 or
> 10 years and
> > whether it will be called television. Or whether much of
> it won't be
> > called television.
> >
> > Why not require all players of material that may contain
> captions to
> > have a captions on/off switch near the volume control. It would be
> > easy, small and could be ubiquitous as well as very handy
> for all users.
> >
> >
> > Gregg
> > -- ------------------------------
> > Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Andi
> > Snow-Weaver
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:00 PM
> > To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> > Subject: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
> > toenable/disable captions
> >
> >
> > Here is the draft text I proposed during today's TEITAC meeting:
> >
> > In products that receive or display analog or digital
> television, the
> > controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one
> location,
> > to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
> > selection, where the ability to control these features is
> otherwise
> > provided.
> >
> > Andi
> >

From: Peter Korn
Date: Wed, Oct 24 2007 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: Enable/disable Captions

Hi Gregg,

A generalized hand held device with a large screen and few to no buttons
that plays videos (the Nokia N770, N800, and new N810 are also examples
of this; not just the iPhone) is, I agree, an excellent example for
discussion.

If we used Andi's proposed language, then your suggested solution
(below) would meet the requirement: in one of the places where someone
can control the volume, they would also be able to turn on/off closed
captions with an interface of similar prominence.

But what if you have to go through a general dialog box first when you
touch the device, and choose "media settings" to get to a second dialog,
where you can adjust the volume (and turn on/off cc)? Then we have both
a CC and volume setting that clearly aren't as prominent as the physical
volume button on the side of the device.

This, to me, is an argument in favor of Andi's language. I think it is
especially important for small multi-function devices as we are seeing
with the iPhone and Nokia Internet Tablet series and so forth; video
playback is only one of many things they do, and while a general volume
control makes sense for everything these device do (e.g. how loud is the
phone conversation amplified?), captioning is only for one thing that
the device does.


Regards,

Peter Korn
Accessibility Architect,
Sun Microsystems, Inc.

> The iPhone is a good example.
>
> The full screen is used for playback. But touching the screen anywhere calls
> up the play controls including the ability to bookmark it play stop/pause or
> jump to end and also to email it . These are the same controls that pop up
> when viewing a TV show (except for bookmark and email).
>
> But there is no way find any way to call up captions. Yet it would be easy
> to add a caption button to the display (which disappears a few seconds
> later). In fact I would bet that many people would use these to view the TV
> shows without audio at times - or when noisy. (and you-tube sometimes as
> well if they were captioned.)
>
>
> Gregg
> -- ------------------------------
> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
>> Of Peter Korn
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:13 AM
>> To: TEITAC Committee
>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>>
>> Hi Gregg, gang,
>>
>> Another question: what about situations when playback of
>> videos is relatively incidental to the function of the
>> device, *and* the device has only a very few keys. Many cell
>> phones and PDAs are now playing videos (e.g. the iPhone with
>> YouTube). I believe an argument was made that as remote
>> controls have so many buttons, requiring a "CC" button near
>> the volume or mute button should not be a significant demand.
>> Whether or not that is true, it certainly seems like adding a "CC"
>> button to a cell phone that is capable of playing videos is
>> in fact a rather large change - especially for a phone that
>> has perhaps only a very few buttons to begin with (though one
>> of which is volume).
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Peter Korn
>> Accessibility Architect,
>> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>>
>>
>>> Does this cover desktop/notebook/handheld computers and/or
>>>
>> phones (or
>>
>>> other future devices) that "display analog or digital television" ?
>>>
>>> In particular, the language seems to cover "Media PC's" that do
>>> display analog and digital television, some which have very small
>>> remotes that may not support:
>>> "controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one
>>>
>> location,
>>
>>> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
>>> selection, where the ability to control these features is
>>>
>> otherwise
>>
>>> provided."
>>>
>>> Another question: Are we discussing physical controls ? or
>>>
>> does this
>>
>>> also include "on screen" controls ?
>>> or both ?
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
>>> Hoffman, Allen
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:39 AM
>>> To: TEITAC Committee
>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for
>>> mechanismtoenable/disable captions
>>>
>>> Just a question:
>>>
>>> Would this include a PC that can play DVD(s)? Is it dependent upon
>>> having a mechanical or touch operated volume control?
>>>
>> Should a mute
>>
>>> button activate captioning or de-activate captioning? I
>>>
>> liked Andi's
>>
>>> language for this item myself. I believe the initial
>>>
>> constraint for
>>
>>> analog/digital television is those kinds of synchronized
>>>
>> media covered
>>
>>> as "broadcast" by FCC, but I could be wrong.
>>>
>>> Allen Hoffman -- = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; v: 202-447-0303
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
>>>
>> Of Gregg
>>
>>> Vanderheiden
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:29 AM
>>> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
>>> Cc: 'TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee'
>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
>>> toenable/disable captions
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Per request from the chairs here is a summary of the
>>>
>> points made in
>>
>>> my
>>> comments:
>>>
>>> * Current language uses "Analog or digital TV". But things are
>>> changing
>>> so fast that it is not clear what we will be using in 5 or
>>>
>> 10 years and
>>
>>> whether it will be called television. Or whether much of
>>>
>> it won't be
>>
>>> called television.
>>>
>>> Why not require all players of material that may contain
>>>
>> captions to
>>
>>> have a captions on/off switch near the volume control. It would be
>>> easy, small and could be ubiquitous as well as very handy
>>>
>> for all users.
>>
>>> Gregg
>>> -- ------------------------------
>>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>>>
>> Behalf Of Andi
>>
>>> Snow-Weaver
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:00 PM
>>> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
>>> Subject: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
>>> toenable/disable captions
>>>
>>>
>>> Here is the draft text I proposed during today's TEITAC meeting:
>>>
>>> In products that receive or display analog or digital
>>>
>> television, the
>>
>>> controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one
>>>
>> location,
>>
>>> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
>>> selection, where the ability to control these features is
>>>
>> otherwise
>>
>>> provided.
>>>
>>> Andi
>>>

From: Larry Goldberg
Date: Wed, Oct 24 2007 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: Enable/disable Captions

As previously decided by the FCC, Media PCs are subject tot he TV Decoder
Circuitry Act provisions.
Thus, in our definitions, such PCs would fall under these control
requirements.

The latest proposed language would give the flexibility of enabling a
hardware or software equivalent for toggling captions and descriptions, on a
remote or on-screen menu - * in at least one location.*

Hopefully this would give the manufacturer of Media PCs and similar laptops
options for providing equivalent access controls.

... Larry ...


Takemura, Michael (HP Accessibility) wrote:

>
> Does this cover desktop/notebook/handheld computers and/or phones (or
> other future devices)
> that "display analog or digital television" ?
>
> In particular, the language seems to cover "Media PC's" that do display
> analog and digital television,
> some which have very small remotes that may not support:
> "controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one location,
> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
> selection, where the ability to control these features is otherwise
> provided."
>
> Another question: Are we discussing physical controls ? or does this
> also include "on screen" controls ?
> or both ?
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Hoffman,
> Allen
> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:39 AM
> To: TEITAC Committee
> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for
> mechanismtoenable/disable captions
>
> Just a question:
>
> Would this include a PC that can play DVD(s)? Is it dependent upon
> having a mechanical or touch operated volume control? Should a mute
> button activate captioning or de-activate captioning? I liked Andi's
> language for this item myself. I believe the initial constraint for
> analog/digital television is those kinds of synchronized media covered
> as "broadcast" by FCC, but I could be wrong.
>
> Allen Hoffman -- = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; v: 202-447-0303
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Gregg
> Vanderheiden
> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:29 AM
> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> Cc: 'TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee'
> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
> toenable/disable captions
>
> Thanks
>
> Per request from the chairs here is a summary of the points made in my
> comments:
>
> * Current language uses "Analog or digital TV". But things are
> changing
> so fast that it is not clear what we will be using in 5 or 10 years and
> whether it will be called television. Or whether much of it won't be
> called television.
>
> Why not require all players of material that may contain captions to
> have a captions on/off switch near the volume control. It would be
> easy, small and could be ubiquitous as well as very handy for all users.
>
>
> Gregg
> -- ------------------------------
> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Andi
> Snow-Weaver
> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:00 PM
> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> Subject: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
> toenable/disable captions
>
>
> Here is the draft text I proposed during today's TEITAC meeting:
>
> In products that receive or display analog or digital television, the
> controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one location,
> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
> selection, where the ability to control these features is otherwise
> provided.
>
> Andi
>

From: Larry Goldberg
Date: Wed, Oct 24 2007 1:00 PM
Subject: Re: Suggested language for mechanism toenable/disable captions

We'll raise this Q today.

... Larry ...


Hoffman, Allen wrote:

> Just a question:
>
> Would this include a PC that can play DVD(s)? Is it dependent upon
> having a mechanical or touch operated volume control? Should a mute
> button activate captioning or de-activate captioning? I liked Andi's
> language for this item myself. I believe the initial constraint for
> analog/digital television is those kinds of synchronized media covered
> as "broadcast" by FCC, but I could be wrong.
>
>
>
>
> Allen Hoffman -- = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; v: 202-447-0303
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Gregg
> Vanderheiden
> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:29 AM
> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> Cc: 'TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee'
> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
> toenable/disable captions
>
> Thanks
>
> Per request from the chairs here is a summary of the points made in my
> comments:
>
> * Current language uses "Analog or digital TV". But things are
> changing
> so fast that it is not clear what we will be using in 5 or 10 years and
> whether it will be called television. Or whether much of it won't be
> called television.
>
> Why not require all players of material that may contain captions to
> have a captions on/off switch near the volume control. It would be
> easy, small and could be ubiquitous as well as very handy for all users.
>
>
> Gregg
> -- ------------------------------
> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Andi
>> Snow-Weaver
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:00 PM
>> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
>> Subject: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
>> toenable/disable captions
>>
>>
>> Here is the draft text I proposed during today's TEITAC meeting:
>>
>> In products that receive or display analog or digital television, the
>> controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one location,
>> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
>> selection, where the ability to control these features is otherwise
>> provided.
>>
>> Andi
>>
>>

From: Gregg Vanderheiden
Date: Wed, Oct 24 2007 2:20 PM
Subject: Re: Enable/disable Captions

Not sure I follow your discussion but let me try. Are you trying to talk
about products like a phone (or a laptop) --where the volume is on the side
of the product and play controls on screen? Hmmm. Yes I can see that
putting the caption button on the side of the phone might be a hard sell
(though I can see a host of mainstream benefits).

So how about we change it slightly to say "at the same level of prominence
as the channel changing or play controls. Again noting that it would just
be a simple and not - large CC button - this could be done on hardware and
software players of media that may be captioned.

Gregg
-- ------------------------------
Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> Of Peter Korn
> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 1:12 PM
> To: TEITAC Committee
> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>
> Hi Gregg,
>
> A generalized hand held device with a large screen and few to
> no buttons that plays videos (the Nokia N770, N800, and new
> N810 are also examples of this; not just the iPhone) is, I
> agree, an excellent example for discussion.
>
> If we used Andi's proposed language, then your suggested solution
> (below) would meet the requirement: in one of the places
> where someone can control the volume, they would also be able
> to turn on/off closed captions with an interface of similar
> prominence.
>
> But what if you have to go through a general dialog box first
> when you touch the device, and choose "media settings" to get
> to a second dialog, where you can adjust the volume (and turn
> on/off cc)? Then we have both a CC and volume setting that
> clearly aren't as prominent as the physical volume button on
> the side of the device.
>
> This, to me, is an argument in favor of Andi's language. I
> think it is especially important for small multi-function
> devices as we are seeing with the iPhone and Nokia Internet
> Tablet series and so forth; video playback is only one of
> many things they do, and while a general volume control makes
> sense for everything these device do (e.g. how loud is the
> phone conversation amplified?), captioning is only for one
> thing that the device does.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Peter Korn
> Accessibility Architect,
> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>
> > The iPhone is a good example.
> >
> > The full screen is used for playback. But touching the
> screen anywhere
> > calls up the play controls including the ability to
> bookmark it play
> > stop/pause or jump to end and also to email it . These are the same
> > controls that pop up when viewing a TV show (except for
> bookmark and email).
> >
> > But there is no way find any way to call up captions. Yet
> it would be
> > easy to add a caption button to the display (which disappears a few
> > seconds later). In fact I would bet that many people would
> use these
> > to view the TV shows without audio at times - or when noisy. (and
> > you-tube sometimes as well if they were captioned.)
> >
> >
> > Gregg
> > -- ------------------------------
> > Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Peter
> >> Korn
> >> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:13 AM
> >> To: TEITAC Committee
> >> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
> >>
> >> Hi Gregg, gang,
> >>
> >> Another question: what about situations when playback of videos is
> >> relatively incidental to the function of the device, *and*
> the device
> >> has only a very few keys. Many cell phones and PDAs are
> now playing
> >> videos (e.g. the iPhone with YouTube). I believe an argument was
> >> made that as remote controls have so many buttons,
> requiring a "CC"
> >> button near the volume or mute button should not be a significant
> >> demand.
> >> Whether or not that is true, it certainly seems like adding a "CC"
> >> button to a cell phone that is capable of playing videos
> is in fact a
> >> rather large change - especially for a phone that has
> perhaps only a
> >> very few buttons to begin with (though one of which is volume).
> >>
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Peter Korn
> >> Accessibility Architect,
> >> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
> >>
> >>
> >>> Does this cover desktop/notebook/handheld computers and/or
> >>>
> >> phones (or
> >>
> >>> other future devices) that "display analog or digital
> television" ?
> >>>
> >>> In particular, the language seems to cover "Media PC's" that do
> >>> display analog and digital television, some which have very small
> >>> remotes that may not support:
> >>> "controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one
> >>>
> >> location,
> >>
> >>> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
> >>> selection, where the ability to control these features is
> >>>
> >> otherwise
> >>
> >>> provided."
> >>>
> >>> Another question: Are we discussing physical controls ? or
> >>>
> >> does this
> >>
> >>> also include "on screen" controls ?
> >>> or both ?
> >>>
> >>> Michael
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
> >>> Hoffman, Allen
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:39 AM
> >>> To: TEITAC Committee
> >>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for
> >>> mechanismtoenable/disable captions
> >>>
> >>> Just a question:
> >>>
> >>> Would this include a PC that can play DVD(s)? Is it
> dependent upon
> >>> having a mechanical or touch operated volume control?
> >>>
> >> Should a mute
> >>
> >>> button activate captioning or de-activate captioning? I
> >>>
> >> liked Andi's
> >>
> >>> language for this item myself. I believe the initial
> >>>
> >> constraint for
> >>
> >>> analog/digital television is those kinds of synchronized
> >>>
> >> media covered
> >>
> >>> as "broadcast" by FCC, but I could be wrong.
> >>>
> >>> Allen Hoffman -- = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; v: 202-447-0303
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> >>>
> >> Of Gregg
> >>
> >>> Vanderheiden
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:29 AM
> >>> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> >>> Cc: 'TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee'
> >>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
> >>> toenable/disable captions
> >>>
> >>> Thanks
> >>>
> >>> Per request from the chairs here is a summary of the
> >>>
> >> points made in
> >>
> >>> my
> >>> comments:
> >>>
> >>> * Current language uses "Analog or digital TV". But things are
> >>> changing
> >>> so fast that it is not clear what we will be using in 5 or
> >>>
> >> 10 years and
> >>
> >>> whether it will be called television. Or whether much of
> >>>
> >> it won't be
> >>
> >>> called television.
> >>>
> >>> Why not require all players of material that may contain
> >>>
> >> captions to
> >>
> >>> have a captions on/off switch near the volume control.
> It would be
> >>> easy, small and could be ubiquitous as well as very handy
> >>>
> >> for all users.
> >>
> >>> Gregg
> >>> -- ------------------------------
> >>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> >>>
> >> Behalf Of Andi
> >>
> >>> Snow-Weaver
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:00 PM
> >>> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> >>> Subject: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
> >>> toenable/disable captions
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Here is the draft text I proposed during today's TEITAC meeting:
> >>>
> >>> In products that receive or display analog or digital
> >>>
> >> television, the
> >>
> >>> controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one
> >>>
> >> location,
> >>
> >>> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
> >>> selection, where the ability to control these features is
> >>>
> >> otherwise
> >>
> >>> provided.
> >>>
> >>> Andi
> >>>

From: Gregg Vanderheiden
Date: Wed, Oct 24 2007 2:25 PM
Subject: Re: Enable/disable Captions

Not sure I follow your discussion but let me try. Are you trying to talk
about products like a phone (or a laptop) --where the volume is on the side
of the product and play controls on screen? Hmmm. Yes I can see that
putting the caption button on the side of the phone might be a hard sell
(though I can see a host of mainstream benefits).

So how about we change it slightly to say "at the same level of prominence
as the channel changing or play controls. Again noting that it would just
be a simple and not - large CC button - this could be done on hardware and
software players of media that may be captioned.

Gregg
-- ------------------------------
Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> Of Peter Korn
> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 1:12 PM
> To: TEITAC Committee
> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>
> Hi Gregg,
>
> A generalized hand held device with a large screen and few to
> no buttons that plays videos (the Nokia N770, N800, and new
> N810 are also examples of this; not just the iPhone) is, I
> agree, an excellent example for discussion.
>
> If we used Andi's proposed language, then your suggested solution
> (below) would meet the requirement: in one of the places
> where someone can control the volume, they would also be able
> to turn on/off closed captions with an interface of similar
> prominence.
>
> But what if you have to go through a general dialog box first
> when you touch the device, and choose "media settings" to get
> to a second dialog, where you can adjust the volume (and turn
> on/off cc)? Then we have both a CC and volume setting that
> clearly aren't as prominent as the physical volume button on
> the side of the device.
>
> This, to me, is an argument in favor of Andi's language. I
> think it is especially important for small multi-function
> devices as we are seeing with the iPhone and Nokia Internet
> Tablet series and so forth; video playback is only one of
> many things they do, and while a general volume control makes
> sense for everything these device do (e.g. how loud is the
> phone conversation amplified?), captioning is only for one
> thing that the device does.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Peter Korn
> Accessibility Architect,
> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>
> > The iPhone is a good example.
> >
> > The full screen is used for playback. But touching the
> screen anywhere
> > calls up the play controls including the ability to
> bookmark it play
> > stop/pause or jump to end and also to email it . These are the same
> > controls that pop up when viewing a TV show (except for
> bookmark and email).
> >
> > But there is no way find any way to call up captions. Yet
> it would be
> > easy to add a caption button to the display (which disappears a few
> > seconds later). In fact I would bet that many people would
> use these
> > to view the TV shows without audio at times - or when noisy. (and
> > you-tube sometimes as well if they were captioned.)
> >
> >
> > Gregg
> > -- ------------------------------
> > Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Peter
> >> Korn
> >> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:13 AM
> >> To: TEITAC Committee
> >> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
> >>
> >> Hi Gregg, gang,
> >>
> >> Another question: what about situations when playback of videos is
> >> relatively incidental to the function of the device, *and*
> the device
> >> has only a very few keys. Many cell phones and PDAs are
> now playing
> >> videos (e.g. the iPhone with YouTube). I believe an argument was
> >> made that as remote controls have so many buttons,
> requiring a "CC"
> >> button near the volume or mute button should not be a significant
> >> demand.
> >> Whether or not that is true, it certainly seems like adding a "CC"
> >> button to a cell phone that is capable of playing videos
> is in fact a
> >> rather large change - especially for a phone that has
> perhaps only a
> >> very few buttons to begin with (though one of which is volume).
> >>
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Peter Korn
> >> Accessibility Architect,
> >> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
> >>
> >>
> >>> Does this cover desktop/notebook/handheld computers and/or
> >>>
> >> phones (or
> >>
> >>> other future devices) that "display analog or digital
> television" ?
> >>>
> >>> In particular, the language seems to cover "Media PC's" that do
> >>> display analog and digital television, some which have very small
> >>> remotes that may not support:
> >>> "controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one
> >>>
> >> location,
> >>
> >>> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
> >>> selection, where the ability to control these features is
> >>>
> >> otherwise
> >>
> >>> provided."
> >>>
> >>> Another question: Are we discussing physical controls ? or
> >>>
> >> does this
> >>
> >>> also include "on screen" controls ?
> >>> or both ?
> >>>
> >>> Michael
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
> >>> Hoffman, Allen
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:39 AM
> >>> To: TEITAC Committee
> >>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for
> >>> mechanismtoenable/disable captions
> >>>
> >>> Just a question:
> >>>
> >>> Would this include a PC that can play DVD(s)? Is it
> dependent upon
> >>> having a mechanical or touch operated volume control?
> >>>
> >> Should a mute
> >>
> >>> button activate captioning or de-activate captioning? I
> >>>
> >> liked Andi's
> >>
> >>> language for this item myself. I believe the initial
> >>>
> >> constraint for
> >>
> >>> analog/digital television is those kinds of synchronized
> >>>
> >> media covered
> >>
> >>> as "broadcast" by FCC, but I could be wrong.
> >>>
> >>> Allen Hoffman -- = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; v: 202-447-0303
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> >>>
> >> Of Gregg
> >>
> >>> Vanderheiden
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:29 AM
> >>> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> >>> Cc: 'TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee'
> >>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
> >>> toenable/disable captions
> >>>
> >>> Thanks
> >>>
> >>> Per request from the chairs here is a summary of the
> >>>
> >> points made in
> >>
> >>> my
> >>> comments:
> >>>
> >>> * Current language uses "Analog or digital TV". But things are
> >>> changing
> >>> so fast that it is not clear what we will be using in 5 or
> >>>
> >> 10 years and
> >>
> >>> whether it will be called television. Or whether much of
> >>>
> >> it won't be
> >>
> >>> called television.
> >>>
> >>> Why not require all players of material that may contain
> >>>
> >> captions to
> >>
> >>> have a captions on/off switch near the volume control.
> It would be
> >>> easy, small and could be ubiquitous as well as very handy
> >>>
> >> for all users.
> >>
> >>> Gregg
> >>> -- ------------------------------
> >>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> >>>
> >> Behalf Of Andi
> >>
> >>> Snow-Weaver
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:00 PM
> >>> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> >>> Subject: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
> >>> toenable/disable captions
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Here is the draft text I proposed during today's TEITAC meeting:
> >>>
> >>> In products that receive or display analog or digital
> >>>
> >> television, the
> >>
> >>> controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one
> >>>
> >> location,
> >>
> >>> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
> >>> selection, where the ability to control these features is
> >>>
> >> otherwise
> >>
> >>> provided.
> >>>
> >>> Andi
> >>>

From: Larry Goldberg
Date: Wed, Oct 24 2007 2:30 PM
Subject: Re: Enable/disable Captions

New version coming out shortly based on AV SC meeting just concluded.

Stay tuned.

... Larry ...


Gregg Vanderheiden wrote:

> Not sure I follow your discussion but let me try. Are you trying to talk
> about products like a phone (or a laptop) --where the volume is on the side
> of the product and play controls on screen? Hmmm. Yes I can see that
> putting the caption button on the side of the phone might be a hard sell
> (though I can see a host of mainstream benefits).
>
> So how about we change it slightly to say "at the same level of prominence
> as the channel changing or play controls. Again noting that it would just
> be a simple and not - large CC button - this could be done on hardware and
> software players of media that may be captioned.
>
> Gregg
> -- ------------------------------
> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
>> Of Peter Korn
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 1:12 PM
>> To: TEITAC Committee
>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>>
>> Hi Gregg,
>>
>> A generalized hand held device with a large screen and few to
>> no buttons that plays videos (the Nokia N770, N800, and new
>> N810 are also examples of this; not just the iPhone) is, I
>> agree, an excellent example for discussion.
>>
>> If we used Andi's proposed language, then your suggested solution
>> (below) would meet the requirement: in one of the places
>> where someone can control the volume, they would also be able
>> to turn on/off closed captions with an interface of similar
>> prominence.
>>
>> But what if you have to go through a general dialog box first
>> when you touch the device, and choose "media settings" to get
>> to a second dialog, where you can adjust the volume (and turn
>> on/off cc)? Then we have both a CC and volume setting that
>> clearly aren't as prominent as the physical volume button on
>> the side of the device.
>>
>> This, to me, is an argument in favor of Andi's language. I
>> think it is especially important for small multi-function
>> devices as we are seeing with the iPhone and Nokia Internet
>> Tablet series and so forth; video playback is only one of
>> many things they do, and while a general volume control makes
>> sense for everything these device do (e.g. how loud is the
>> phone conversation amplified?), captioning is only for one
>> thing that the device does.
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Peter Korn
>> Accessibility Architect,
>> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>>
>>> The iPhone is a good example.
>>>
>>> The full screen is used for playback. But touching the
>> screen anywhere
>>> calls up the play controls including the ability to
>> bookmark it play
>>> stop/pause or jump to end and also to email it . These are the same
>>> controls that pop up when viewing a TV show (except for
>> bookmark and email).
>>>
>>> But there is no way find any way to call up captions. Yet
>> it would be
>>> easy to add a caption button to the display (which disappears a few
>>> seconds later). In fact I would bet that many people would
>> use these
>>> to view the TV shows without audio at times - or when noisy. (and
>>> you-tube sometimes as well if they were captioned.)
>>>
>>>
>>> Gregg
>>> -- ------------------------------
>>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>> Behalf Of Peter
>>>> Korn
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:13 AM
>>>> To: TEITAC Committee
>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>>>>
>>>> Hi Gregg, gang,
>>>>
>>>> Another question: what about situations when playback of videos is
>>>> relatively incidental to the function of the device, *and*
>> the device
>>>> has only a very few keys. Many cell phones and PDAs are
>> now playing
>>>> videos (e.g. the iPhone with YouTube). I believe an argument was
>>>> made that as remote controls have so many buttons,
>> requiring a "CC"
>>>> button near the volume or mute button should not be a significant
>>>> demand.
>>>> Whether or not that is true, it certainly seems like adding a "CC"
>>>> button to a cell phone that is capable of playing videos
>> is in fact a
>>>> rather large change - especially for a phone that has
>> perhaps only a
>>>> very few buttons to begin with (though one of which is volume).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Peter Korn
>>>> Accessibility Architect,
>>>> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Does this cover desktop/notebook/handheld computers and/or
>>>>>
>>>> phones (or
>>>>
>>>>> other future devices) that "display analog or digital
>> television" ?
>>>>>
>>>>> In particular, the language seems to cover "Media PC's" that do
>>>>> display analog and digital television, some which have very small
>>>>> remotes that may not support:
>>>>> "controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one
>>>>>
>>>> location,
>>>>
>>>>> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
>>>>> selection, where the ability to control these features is
>>>>>
>>>> otherwise
>>>>
>>>>> provided."
>>>>>
>>>>> Another question: Are we discussing physical controls ? or
>>>>>
>>>> does this
>>>>
>>>>> also include "on screen" controls ?
>>>>> or both ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
>>>>> Hoffman, Allen
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:39 AM
>>>>> To: TEITAC Committee
>>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for
>>>>> mechanismtoenable/disable captions
>>>>>
>>>>> Just a question:
>>>>>
>>>>> Would this include a PC that can play DVD(s)? Is it
>> dependent upon
>>>>> having a mechanical or touch operated volume control?
>>>>>
>>>> Should a mute
>>>>
>>>>> button activate captioning or de-activate captioning? I
>>>>>
>>>> liked Andi's
>>>>
>>>>> language for this item myself. I believe the initial
>>>>>
>>>> constraint for
>>>>
>>>>> analog/digital television is those kinds of synchronized
>>>>>
>>>> media covered
>>>>
>>>>> as "broadcast" by FCC, but I could be wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> Allen Hoffman -- = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; v: 202-447-0303
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
>>>>>
>>>> Of Gregg
>>>>
>>>>> Vanderheiden
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:29 AM
>>>>> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
>>>>> Cc: 'TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
>>>>> toenable/disable captions
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>
>>>>> Per request from the chairs here is a summary of the
>>>>>
>>>> points made in
>>>>
>>>>> my
>>>>> comments:
>>>>>
>>>>> * Current language uses "Analog or digital TV". But things are
>>>>> changing
>>>>> so fast that it is not clear what we will be using in 5 or
>>>>>
>>>> 10 years and
>>>>
>>>>> whether it will be called television. Or whether much of
>>>>>
>>>> it won't be
>>>>
>>>>> called television.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why not require all players of material that may contain
>>>>>
>>>> captions to
>>>>
>>>>> have a captions on/off switch near the volume control.
>> It would be
>>>>> easy, small and could be ubiquitous as well as very handy
>>>>>
>>>> for all users.
>>>>
>>>>> Gregg
>>>>> -- ------------------------------
>>>>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>>>>>
>>>> Behalf Of Andi
>>>>
>>>>> Snow-Weaver
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:00 PM
>>>>> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
>>>>> Subject: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
>>>>> toenable/disable captions
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Here is the draft text I proposed during today's TEITAC meeting:
>>>>>
>>>>> In products that receive or display analog or digital
>>>>>
>>>> television, the
>>>>
>>>>> controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one
>>>>>
>>>> location,
>>>>
>>>>> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
>>>>> selection, where the ability to control these features is
>>>>>
>>>> otherwise
>>>>
>>>>> provided.
>>>>>
>>>>> Andi
>>>>>

From: Larry Goldberg
Date: Wed, Oct 24 2007 2:35 PM
Subject: Re: Enable/disable Captions

New version coming out shortly based on AV SC meeting just concluded.

Stay tuned.

... Larry ...


Gregg Vanderheiden wrote:

> Not sure I follow your discussion but let me try. Are you trying to talk
> about products like a phone (or a laptop) --where the volume is on the side
> of the product and play controls on screen? Hmmm. Yes I can see that
> putting the caption button on the side of the phone might be a hard sell
> (though I can see a host of mainstream benefits).
>
> So how about we change it slightly to say "at the same level of prominence
> as the channel changing or play controls. Again noting that it would just
> be a simple and not - large CC button - this could be done on hardware and
> software players of media that may be captioned.
>
> Gregg
> -- ------------------------------
> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
>> Of Peter Korn
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 1:12 PM
>> To: TEITAC Committee
>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>>
>> Hi Gregg,
>>
>> A generalized hand held device with a large screen and few to
>> no buttons that plays videos (the Nokia N770, N800, and new
>> N810 are also examples of this; not just the iPhone) is, I
>> agree, an excellent example for discussion.
>>
>> If we used Andi's proposed language, then your suggested solution
>> (below) would meet the requirement: in one of the places
>> where someone can control the volume, they would also be able
>> to turn on/off closed captions with an interface of similar
>> prominence.
>>
>> But what if you have to go through a general dialog box first
>> when you touch the device, and choose "media settings" to get
>> to a second dialog, where you can adjust the volume (and turn
>> on/off cc)? Then we have both a CC and volume setting that
>> clearly aren't as prominent as the physical volume button on
>> the side of the device.
>>
>> This, to me, is an argument in favor of Andi's language. I
>> think it is especially important for small multi-function
>> devices as we are seeing with the iPhone and Nokia Internet
>> Tablet series and so forth; video playback is only one of
>> many things they do, and while a general volume control makes
>> sense for everything these device do (e.g. how loud is the
>> phone conversation amplified?), captioning is only for one
>> thing that the device does.
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Peter Korn
>> Accessibility Architect,
>> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>>
>>> The iPhone is a good example.
>>>
>>> The full screen is used for playback. But touching the
>> screen anywhere
>>> calls up the play controls including the ability to
>> bookmark it play
>>> stop/pause or jump to end and also to email it . These are the same
>>> controls that pop up when viewing a TV show (except for
>> bookmark and email).
>>>
>>> But there is no way find any way to call up captions. Yet
>> it would be
>>> easy to add a caption button to the display (which disappears a few
>>> seconds later). In fact I would bet that many people would
>> use these
>>> to view the TV shows without audio at times - or when noisy. (and
>>> you-tube sometimes as well if they were captioned.)
>>>
>>>
>>> Gregg
>>> -- ------------------------------
>>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>> Behalf Of Peter
>>>> Korn
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:13 AM
>>>> To: TEITAC Committee
>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>>>>
>>>> Hi Gregg, gang,
>>>>
>>>> Another question: what about situations when playback of videos is
>>>> relatively incidental to the function of the device, *and*
>> the device
>>>> has only a very few keys. Many cell phones and PDAs are
>> now playing
>>>> videos (e.g. the iPhone with YouTube). I believe an argument was
>>>> made that as remote controls have so many buttons,
>> requiring a "CC"
>>>> button near the volume or mute button should not be a significant
>>>> demand.
>>>> Whether or not that is true, it certainly seems like adding a "CC"
>>>> button to a cell phone that is capable of playing videos
>> is in fact a
>>>> rather large change - especially for a phone that has
>> perhaps only a
>>>> very few buttons to begin with (though one of which is volume).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Peter Korn
>>>> Accessibility Architect,
>>>> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Does this cover desktop/notebook/handheld computers and/or
>>>>>
>>>> phones (or
>>>>
>>>>> other future devices) that "display analog or digital
>> television" ?
>>>>>
>>>>> In particular, the language seems to cover "Media PC's" that do
>>>>> display analog and digital television, some which have very small
>>>>> remotes that may not support:
>>>>> "controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one
>>>>>
>>>> location,
>>>>
>>>>> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
>>>>> selection, where the ability to control these features is
>>>>>
>>>> otherwise
>>>>
>>>>> provided."
>>>>>
>>>>> Another question: Are we discussing physical controls ? or
>>>>>
>>>> does this
>>>>
>>>>> also include "on screen" controls ?
>>>>> or both ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
>>>>> Hoffman, Allen
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:39 AM
>>>>> To: TEITAC Committee
>>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for
>>>>> mechanismtoenable/disable captions
>>>>>
>>>>> Just a question:
>>>>>
>>>>> Would this include a PC that can play DVD(s)? Is it
>> dependent upon
>>>>> having a mechanical or touch operated volume control?
>>>>>
>>>> Should a mute
>>>>
>>>>> button activate captioning or de-activate captioning? I
>>>>>
>>>> liked Andi's
>>>>
>>>>> language for this item myself. I believe the initial
>>>>>
>>>> constraint for
>>>>
>>>>> analog/digital television is those kinds of synchronized
>>>>>
>>>> media covered
>>>>
>>>>> as "broadcast" by FCC, but I could be wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> Allen Hoffman -- = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; v: 202-447-0303
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
>>>>>
>>>> Of Gregg
>>>>
>>>>> Vanderheiden
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:29 AM
>>>>> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
>>>>> Cc: 'TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
>>>>> toenable/disable captions
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>
>>>>> Per request from the chairs here is a summary of the
>>>>>
>>>> points made in
>>>>
>>>>> my
>>>>> comments:
>>>>>
>>>>> * Current language uses "Analog or digital TV". But things are
>>>>> changing
>>>>> so fast that it is not clear what we will be using in 5 or
>>>>>
>>>> 10 years and
>>>>
>>>>> whether it will be called television. Or whether much of
>>>>>
>>>> it won't be
>>>>
>>>>> called television.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why not require all players of material that may contain
>>>>>
>>>> captions to
>>>>
>>>>> have a captions on/off switch near the volume control.
>> It would be
>>>>> easy, small and could be ubiquitous as well as very handy
>>>>>
>>>> for all users.
>>>>
>>>>> Gregg
>>>>> -- ------------------------------
>>>>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>>>>>
>>>> Behalf Of Andi
>>>>
>>>>> Snow-Weaver
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:00 PM
>>>>> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
>>>>> Subject: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
>>>>> toenable/disable captions
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Here is the draft text I proposed during today's TEITAC meeting:
>>>>>
>>>>> In products that receive or display analog or digital
>>>>>
>>>> television, the
>>>>
>>>>> controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one
>>>>>
>>>> location,
>>>>
>>>>> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
>>>>> selection, where the ability to control these features is
>>>>>
>>>> otherwise
>>>>
>>>>> provided.
>>>>>
>>>>> Andi
>>>>>

From: Peter Korn
Date: Wed, Oct 24 2007 8:05 PM
Subject: Re: Enable/disable Captions

Hi Gregg,

I think we are getting closer, but aren't quite there yet. You have
substituted a single control for two controls - and assume that so long
as CC is as prominent as at least one of those two, the provision would
be satisfied. I'm trying to make a more general argument, using devices
like the iPhone or Nokia Internet Tablet as an example. The more
general argument is that it may make sense to have some controls (e.g.
volume) have tremendous prominence because they are used for all
functions of a multi-function device (e.g. volume of video playback, and
of a cell phone conversation, and of music, and ...), while captioning
may only make sense for a narrow feature of the device (one can even
imagine a multi-function programmable device not even shipping with
video playback functionality - only 3rd party software provides it).

Therefore I am arguing for Andi's language, which states that: "...the
controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one location, to
the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
selection...". Key is the "in at least one location".

Another example are media PCs that include a couple of extra buttons on
them (think about a laptop that can play CDs [but NOT DVDs] without
otherwise booting, and have volume controls and track selection buttons
on them, and little else in hardware; but also have a software GUI for
greater control). If we went with language that didn't include "in at
least one location", then such a laptop would have to have a CC button
exposed on the case, even though such a button might only be used for
downloaded videos, simply because the volume control on the case is used
to control volume generally of the system.


Regards,

Peter Korn
Accessibility Architect,
Sun Microsystems, Inc.

> Not sure I follow your discussion but let me try. Are you trying to talk
> about products like a phone (or a laptop) --where the volume is on the side
> of the product and play controls on screen? Hmmm. Yes I can see that
> putting the caption button on the side of the phone might be a hard sell
> (though I can see a host of mainstream benefits).
>
> So how about we change it slightly to say "at the same level of prominence
> as the channel changing or play controls. Again noting that it would just
> be a simple and not - large CC button - this could be done on hardware and
> software players of media that may be captioned.
>
> Gregg
> -- ------------------------------
> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
>> Of Peter Korn
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 1:12 PM
>> To: TEITAC Committee
>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>>
>> Hi Gregg,
>>
>> A generalized hand held device with a large screen and few to
>> no buttons that plays videos (the Nokia N770, N800, and new
>> N810 are also examples of this; not just the iPhone) is, I
>> agree, an excellent example for discussion.
>>
>> If we used Andi's proposed language, then your suggested solution
>> (below) would meet the requirement: in one of the places
>> where someone can control the volume, they would also be able
>> to turn on/off closed captions with an interface of similar
>> prominence.
>>
>> But what if you have to go through a general dialog box first
>> when you touch the device, and choose "media settings" to get
>> to a second dialog, where you can adjust the volume (and turn
>> on/off cc)? Then we have both a CC and volume setting that
>> clearly aren't as prominent as the physical volume button on
>> the side of the device.
>>
>> This, to me, is an argument in favor of Andi's language. I
>> think it is especially important for small multi-function
>> devices as we are seeing with the iPhone and Nokia Internet
>> Tablet series and so forth; video playback is only one of
>> many things they do, and while a general volume control makes
>> sense for everything these device do (e.g. how loud is the
>> phone conversation amplified?), captioning is only for one
>> thing that the device does.
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Peter Korn
>> Accessibility Architect,
>> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>>
>>
>>> The iPhone is a good example.
>>>
>>> The full screen is used for playback. But touching the
>>>
>> screen anywhere
>>
>>> calls up the play controls including the ability to
>>>
>> bookmark it play
>>
>>> stop/pause or jump to end and also to email it . These are the same
>>> controls that pop up when viewing a TV show (except for
>>>
>> bookmark and email).
>>
>>> But there is no way find any way to call up captions. Yet
>>>
>> it would be
>>
>>> easy to add a caption button to the display (which disappears a few
>>> seconds later). In fact I would bet that many people would
>>>
>> use these
>>
>>> to view the TV shows without audio at times - or when noisy. (and
>>> you-tube sometimes as well if they were captioned.)
>>>
>>>
>>> Gregg
>>> -- ------------------------------
>>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>>>>
>> Behalf Of Peter
>>
>>>> Korn
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:13 AM
>>>> To: TEITAC Committee
>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>>>>
>>>> Hi Gregg, gang,
>>>>
>>>> Another question: what about situations when playback of videos is
>>>> relatively incidental to the function of the device, *and*
>>>>
>> the device
>>
>>>> has only a very few keys. Many cell phones and PDAs are
>>>>
>> now playing
>>
>>>> videos (e.g. the iPhone with YouTube). I believe an argument was
>>>> made that as remote controls have so many buttons,
>>>>
>> requiring a "CC"
>>
>>>> button near the volume or mute button should not be a significant
>>>> demand.
>>>> Whether or not that is true, it certainly seems like adding a "CC"
>>>> button to a cell phone that is capable of playing videos
>>>>
>> is in fact a
>>
>>>> rather large change - especially for a phone that has
>>>>
>> perhaps only a
>>
>>>> very few buttons to begin with (though one of which is volume).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Peter Korn
>>>> Accessibility Architect,
>>>> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Does this cover desktop/notebook/handheld computers and/or
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> phones (or
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> other future devices) that "display analog or digital
>>>>>
>> television" ?
>>
>>>>> In particular, the language seems to cover "Media PC's" that do
>>>>> display analog and digital television, some which have very small
>>>>> remotes that may not support:
>>>>> "controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> location,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
>>>>> selection, where the ability to control these features is
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> otherwise
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> provided."
>>>>>
>>>>> Another question: Are we discussing physical controls ? or
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> does this
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> also include "on screen" controls ?
>>>>> or both ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
>>>>> Hoffman, Allen
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:39 AM
>>>>> To: TEITAC Committee
>>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for
>>>>> mechanismtoenable/disable captions
>>>>>
>>>>> Just a question:
>>>>>
>>>>> Would this include a PC that can play DVD(s)? Is it
>>>>>
>> dependent upon
>>
>>>>> having a mechanical or touch operated volume control?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Should a mute
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> button activate captioning or de-activate captioning? I
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> liked Andi's
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> language for this item myself. I believe the initial
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> constraint for
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> analog/digital television is those kinds of synchronized
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> media covered
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> as "broadcast" by FCC, but I could be wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> Allen Hoffman -- = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; v: 202-447-0303
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Of Gregg
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Vanderheiden
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:29 AM
>>>>> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
>>>>> Cc: 'TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
>>>>> toenable/disable captions
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>
>>>>> Per request from the chairs here is a summary of the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> points made in
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> my
>>>>> comments:
>>>>>
>>>>> * Current language uses "Analog or digital TV". But things are
>>>>> changing
>>>>> so fast that it is not clear what we will be using in 5 or
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> 10 years and
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> whether it will be called television. Or whether much of
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> it won't be
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> called television.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why not require all players of material that may contain
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> captions to
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> have a captions on/off switch near the volume control.
>>>>>
>> It would be
>>
>>>>> easy, small and could be ubiquitous as well as very handy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> for all users.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Gregg
>>>>> -- ------------------------------
>>>>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Behalf Of Andi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Snow-Weaver
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:00 PM
>>>>> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
>>>>> Subject: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
>>>>> toenable/disable captions
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Here is the draft text I proposed during today's TEITAC meeting:
>>>>>
>>>>> In products that receive or display analog or digital
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> television, the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> location,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
>>>>> selection, where the ability to control these features is
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> otherwise
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> provided.
>>>>>
>>>>> Andi
>>>>>

From: Larry Goldberg
Date: Wed, Oct 24 2007 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: Enable/disable Captions

Our conference call today helped us reach further agreement and
understanding of the issues - I will circulate the changes Thursday or
Friday.
We are grateful to Andi for suggestion the language we are now building on.

... Larry ...


Peter Korn wrote:

> Hi Gregg,
>
> I think we are getting closer, but aren't quite there yet. You have
> substituted a single control for two controls - and assume that so long
> as CC is as prominent as at least one of those two, the provision would
> be satisfied. I'm trying to make a more general argument, using devices
> like the iPhone or Nokia Internet Tablet as an example. The more
> general argument is that it may make sense to have some controls (e.g.
> volume) have tremendous prominence because they are used for all
> functions of a multi-function device (e.g. volume of video playback, and
> of a cell phone conversation, and of music, and ...), while captioning
> may only make sense for a narrow feature of the device (one can even
> imagine a multi-function programmable device not even shipping with
> video playback functionality - only 3rd party software provides it).
>
> Therefore I am arguing for Andi's language, which states that: "...the
> controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one location, to
> the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
> selection...". Key is the "in at least one location".
>
> Another example are media PCs that include a couple of extra buttons on
> them (think about a laptop that can play CDs [but NOT DVDs] without
> otherwise booting, and have volume controls and track selection buttons
> on them, and little else in hardware; but also have a software GUI for
> greater control). If we went with language that didn't include "in at
> least one location", then such a laptop would have to have a CC button
> exposed on the case, even though such a button might only be used for
> downloaded videos, simply because the volume control on the case is used
> to control volume generally of the system.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Peter Korn
> Accessibility Architect,
> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>
>> Not sure I follow your discussion but let me try. Are you trying to talk
>> about products like a phone (or a laptop) --where the volume is on the side
>> of the product and play controls on screen? Hmmm. Yes I can see that
>> putting the caption button on the side of the phone might be a hard sell
>> (though I can see a host of mainstream benefits).
>>
>> So how about we change it slightly to say "at the same level of prominence
>> as the channel changing or play controls. Again noting that it would just
>> be a simple and not - large CC button - this could be done on hardware and
>> software players of media that may be captioned.
>>
>> Gregg
>> -- ------------------------------
>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
>>> Of Peter Korn
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 1:12 PM
>>> To: TEITAC Committee
>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>>>
>>> Hi Gregg,
>>>
>>> A generalized hand held device with a large screen and few to
>>> no buttons that plays videos (the Nokia N770, N800, and new
>>> N810 are also examples of this; not just the iPhone) is, I
>>> agree, an excellent example for discussion.
>>>
>>> If we used Andi's proposed language, then your suggested solution
>>> (below) would meet the requirement: in one of the places
>>> where someone can control the volume, they would also be able
>>> to turn on/off closed captions with an interface of similar
>>> prominence.
>>>
>>> But what if you have to go through a general dialog box first
>>> when you touch the device, and choose "media settings" to get
>>> to a second dialog, where you can adjust the volume (and turn
>>> on/off cc)? Then we have both a CC and volume setting that
>>> clearly aren't as prominent as the physical volume button on
>>> the side of the device.
>>>
>>> This, to me, is an argument in favor of Andi's language. I
>>> think it is especially important for small multi-function
>>> devices as we are seeing with the iPhone and Nokia Internet
>>> Tablet series and so forth; video playback is only one of
>>> many things they do, and while a general volume control makes
>>> sense for everything these device do (e.g. how loud is the
>>> phone conversation amplified?), captioning is only for one
>>> thing that the device does.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Peter Korn
>>> Accessibility Architect,
>>> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>>>
>>>
>>>> The iPhone is a good example.
>>>>
>>>> The full screen is used for playback. But touching the
>>>>
>>> screen anywhere
>>>
>>>> calls up the play controls including the ability to
>>>>
>>> bookmark it play
>>>
>>>> stop/pause or jump to end and also to email it . These are the same
>>>> controls that pop up when viewing a TV show (except for
>>>>
>>> bookmark and email).
>>>
>>>> But there is no way find any way to call up captions. Yet
>>>>
>>> it would be
>>>
>>>> easy to add a caption button to the display (which disappears a few
>>>> seconds later). In fact I would bet that many people would
>>>>
>>> use these
>>>
>>>> to view the TV shows without audio at times - or when noisy. (and
>>>> you-tube sometimes as well if they were captioned.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gregg
>>>> -- ------------------------------
>>>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>>>>>
>>> Behalf Of Peter
>>>
>>>>> Korn
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:13 AM
>>>>> To: TEITAC Committee
>>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Gregg, gang,
>>>>>
>>>>> Another question: what about situations when playback of videos is
>>>>> relatively incidental to the function of the device, *and*
>>>>>
>>> the device
>>>
>>>>> has only a very few keys. Many cell phones and PDAs are
>>>>>
>>> now playing
>>>
>>>>> videos (e.g. the iPhone with YouTube). I believe an argument was
>>>>> made that as remote controls have so many buttons,
>>>>>
>>> requiring a "CC"
>>>
>>>>> button near the volume or mute button should not be a significant
>>>>> demand.
>>>>> Whether or not that is true, it certainly seems like adding a "CC"
>>>>> button to a cell phone that is capable of playing videos
>>>>>
>>> is in fact a
>>>
>>>>> rather large change - especially for a phone that has
>>>>>
>>> perhaps only a
>>>
>>>>> very few buttons to begin with (though one of which is volume).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter Korn
>>>>> Accessibility Architect,
>>>>> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Does this cover desktop/notebook/handheld computers and/or
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> phones (or
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> other future devices) that "display analog or digital
>>>>>>
>>> television" ?
>>>
>>>>>> In particular, the language seems to cover "Media PC's" that do
>>>>>> display analog and digital television, some which have very small
>>>>>> remotes that may not support:
>>>>>> "controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> location,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
>>>>>> selection, where the ability to control these features is
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> otherwise
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> provided."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Another question: Are we discussing physical controls ? or
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> does this
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> also include "on screen" controls ?
>>>>>> or both ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
>>>>>> Hoffman, Allen
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:39 AM
>>>>>> To: TEITAC Committee
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for
>>>>>> mechanismtoenable/disable captions
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just a question:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Would this include a PC that can play DVD(s)? Is it
>>>>>>
>>> dependent upon
>>>
>>>>>> having a mechanical or touch operated volume control?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Should a mute
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> button activate captioning or de-activate captioning? I
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> liked Andi's
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> language for this item myself. I believe the initial
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> constraint for
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> analog/digital television is those kinds of synchronized
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> media covered
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> as "broadcast" by FCC, but I could be wrong.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Allen Hoffman -- = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; v: 202-447-0303
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Of Gregg
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Vanderheiden
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:29 AM
>>>>>> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
>>>>>> Cc: 'TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee'
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
>>>>>> toenable/disable captions
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Per request from the chairs here is a summary of the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> points made in
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> my
>>>>>> comments:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Current language uses "Analog or digital TV". But things are
>>>>>> changing
>>>>>> so fast that it is not clear what we will be using in 5 or
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> 10 years and
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> whether it will be called television. Or whether much of
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> it won't be
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> called television.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why not require all players of material that may contain
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> captions to
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> have a captions on/off switch near the volume control.
>>>>>>
>>> It would be
>>>
>>>>>> easy, small and could be ubiquitous as well as very handy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> for all users.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Gregg
>>>>>> -- ------------------------------
>>>>>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Behalf Of Andi
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Snow-Weaver
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:00 PM
>>>>>> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
>>>>>> Subject: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
>>>>>> toenable/disable captions
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here is the draft text I proposed during today's TEITAC meeting:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In products that receive or display analog or digital
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> television, the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> location,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
>>>>>> selection, where the ability to control these features is
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> otherwise
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> provided.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andi
>>>>>>

From: Larry Goldberg
Date: Wed, Oct 24 2007 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: Enable/disable Captions

Not sure of the deadlines, but I am on the road all day tomorrow and tied up
much of Friday.

If anyone else has good notes of our call and can post the latest, that
would be great.

... Larry ...


Andrew Kirkpatrick wrote:

> Don't we need to have the draft language for the next draft by tomorrow
> or Friday? Or am I making that up? It seems that the new language is
> closer than what is in the last draft, perhaps we should put that in but
> with the understanding that work continues.
>
> AWK
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
>> Of Larry Goldberg
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:19 PM
>> To: TEITAC Committee
>> Cc: TEITAC AV list
>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>>
>> Our conference call today helped us reach further agreement
>> and understanding of the issues - I will circulate the
>> changes Thursday or Friday.
>> We are grateful to Andi for suggestion the language we are
>> now building on.
>>
>> ... Larry ...
>>
>>
>> Peter Korn wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Gregg,
>>>
>>> I think we are getting closer, but aren't quite there yet.
>> You have
>>> substituted a single control for two controls - and assume that so
>>> long as CC is as prominent as at least one of those two,
>> the provision
>>> would be satisfied. I'm trying to make a more general
>> argument, using
>>> devices like the iPhone or Nokia Internet Tablet as an
>> example. The
>>> more general argument is that it may make sense to have
>> some controls (e.g.
>>> volume) have tremendous prominence because they are used for all
>>> functions of a multi-function device (e.g. volume of video
>> playback,
>>> and of a cell phone conversation, and of music, and ...), while
>>> captioning may only make sense for a narrow feature of the
>> device (one
>>> can even imagine a multi-function programmable device not even
>>> shipping with video playback functionality - only 3rd party
>> software provides it).
>>>
>>> Therefore I am arguing for Andi's language, which states
>> that: "...the
>>> controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one
>> location,
>>> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
>>> selection...". Key is the "in at least one location".
>>>
>>> Another example are media PCs that include a couple of
>> extra buttons
>>> on them (think about a laptop that can play CDs [but NOT
>> DVDs] without
>>> otherwise booting, and have volume controls and track selection
>>> buttons on them, and little else in hardware; but also have
>> a software
>>> GUI for greater control). If we went with language that didn't
>>> include "in at least one location", then such a laptop
>> would have to
>>> have a CC button exposed on the case, even though such a
>> button might
>>> only be used for downloaded videos, simply because the
>> volume control
>>> on the case is used to control volume generally of the system.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Peter Korn
>>> Accessibility Architect,
>>> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>>>
>>>> Not sure I follow your discussion but let me try. Are
>> you trying to talk
>>>> about products like a phone (or a laptop) --where the
>> volume is on the side
>>>> of the product and play controls on screen? Hmmm. Yes
>> I can see that
>>>> putting the caption button on the side of the phone might
>> be a hard
>>>> sell (though I can see a host of mainstream benefits).
>>>>
>>>> So how about we change it slightly to say "at the same
>> level of prominence
>>>> as the channel changing or play controls. Again noting
>> that it would just
>>>> be a simple and not - large CC button - this could be done on
>>>> hardware and software players of media that may be captioned.
>>>>
>>>> Gregg
>>>> -- ------------------------------
>>>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>> Behalf Of Peter
>>>>> Korn
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 1:12 PM
>>>>> To: TEITAC Committee
>>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Gregg,
>>>>>
>>>>> A generalized hand held device with a large screen and few to no
>>>>> buttons that plays videos (the Nokia N770, N800, and new N810 are
>>>>> also examples of this; not just the iPhone) is, I agree, an
>>>>> excellent example for discussion.
>>>>>
>>>>> If we used Andi's proposed language, then your suggested solution
>>>>> (below) would meet the requirement: in one of the places where
>>>>> someone can control the volume, they would also be able to turn
>>>>> on/off closed captions with an interface of similar prominence.
>>>>>
>>>>> But what if you have to go through a general dialog box
>> first when
>>>>> you touch the device, and choose "media settings" to get
>> to a second
>>>>> dialog, where you can adjust the volume (and turn on/off
>> cc)? Then
>>>>> we have both a CC and volume setting that clearly aren't as
>>>>> prominent as the physical volume button on the side of the device.
>>>>>
>>>>> This, to me, is an argument in favor of Andi's language.
>> I think it
>>>>> is especially important for small multi-function devices
>> as we are
>>>>> seeing with the iPhone and Nokia Internet Tablet series and so
>>>>> forth; video playback is only one of many things they do,
>> and while
>>>>> a general volume control makes sense for everything these
>> device do
>>>>> (e.g. how loud is the phone conversation amplified?),
>> captioning is
>>>>> only for one thing that the device does.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter Korn
>>>>> Accessibility Architect,
>>>>> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> The iPhone is a good example.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The full screen is used for playback. But touching the
>>>>>>
>>>>> screen anywhere
>>>>>
>>>>>> calls up the play controls including the ability to
>>>>>>
>>>>> bookmark it play
>>>>>
>>>>>> stop/pause or jump to end and also to email it . These
>> are the same
>>>>>> controls that pop up when viewing a TV show (except for
>>>>>>
>>>>> bookmark and email).
>>>>>
>>>>>> But there is no way find any way to call up captions. Yet
>>>>>>
>>>>> it would be
>>>>>
>>>>>> easy to add a caption button to the display (which
>> disappears a few
>>>>>> seconds later). In fact I would bet that many people would
>>>>>>
>>>>> use these
>>>>>
>>>>>> to view the TV shows without audio at times - or when
>> noisy. (and
>>>>>> you-tube sometimes as well if they were captioned.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gregg
>>>>>> -- ------------------------------
>>>>>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>>>>>>>
>>>>> Behalf Of Peter
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Korn
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:13 AM
>>>>>>> To: TEITAC Committee
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Gregg, gang,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Another question: what about situations when playback
>> of videos is
>>>>>>> relatively incidental to the function of the device, *and*
>>>>>>>
>>>>> the device
>>>>>
>>>>>>> has only a very few keys. Many cell phones and PDAs are
>>>>>>>
>>>>> now playing
>>>>>
>>>>>>> videos (e.g. the iPhone with YouTube). I believe an
>> argument was
>>>>>>> made that as remote controls have so many buttons,
>>>>>>>
>>>>> requiring a "CC"
>>>>>
>>>>>>> button near the volume or mute button should not be a
>> significant
>>>>>>> demand.
>>>>>>> Whether or not that is true, it certainly seems like
>> adding a "CC"
>>>>>>> button to a cell phone that is capable of playing videos
>>>>>>>
>>>>> is in fact a
>>>>>
>>>>>>> rather large change - especially for a phone that has
>>>>>>>
>>>>> perhaps only a
>>>>>
>>>>>>> very few buttons to begin with (though one of which is volume).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Peter Korn
>>>>>>> Accessibility Architect,
>>>>>>> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Does this cover desktop/notebook/handheld computers and/or
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> phones (or
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> other future devices) that "display analog or digital
>>>>>>>>
>>>>> television" ?
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In particular, the language seems to cover "Media
>> PC's" that do
>>>>>>>> display analog and digital television, some which have
>> very small
>>>>>>>> remotes that may not support:
>>>>>>>> "controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> location,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
>>>>>>>> selection, where the ability to control these features is
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> otherwise
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> provided."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Another question: Are we discussing physical controls ? or
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> does this
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> also include "on screen" controls ?
>>>>>>>> or both ?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>> Hoffman, Allen
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:39 AM
>>>>>>>> To: TEITAC Committee
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for
>>>>>>>> mechanismtoenable/disable captions
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just a question:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Would this include a PC that can play DVD(s)? Is it
>>>>>>>>
>>>>> dependent upon
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> having a mechanical or touch operated volume control?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Should a mute
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> button activate captioning or de-activate captioning? I
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> liked Andi's
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> language for this item myself. I believe the initial
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> constraint for
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> analog/digital television is those kinds of synchronized
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> media covered
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> as "broadcast" by FCC, but I could be wrong.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Allen Hoffman -- = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; v: 202-447-0303
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of Gregg
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Vanderheiden
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:29 AM
>>>>>>>> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
>>>>>>>> Cc: 'TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee'
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for
>> mechanism
>>>>>>>> toenable/disable captions
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Per request from the chairs here is a summary of the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> points made in
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>> comments:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> * Current language uses "Analog or digital TV".
>> But things are
>>>>>>>> changing
>>>>>>>> so fast that it is not clear what we will be using in 5 or
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 10 years and
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> whether it will be called television. Or whether much of
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> it won't be
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> called television.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why not require all players of material that may contain
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> captions to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> have a captions on/off switch near the volume control.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>> It would be
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> easy, small and could be ubiquitous as well as very handy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> for all users.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gregg
>>>>>>>> -- ------------------------------ Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Behalf Of Andi
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Snow-Weaver
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:00 PM
>>>>>>>> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
>>>>>>>> Subject: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
>>>>>>>> toenable/disable captions
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Here is the draft text I proposed during today's
>> TEITAC meeting:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In products that receive or display analog or digital
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> television, the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> location,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
>>>>>>>> selection, where the ability to control these features is
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> otherwise
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> provided.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Andi
>>>>>>>>

From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Wed, Oct 24 2007 8:35 PM
Subject: Re: Enable/disable Captions

Don't we need to have the draft language for the next draft by tomorrow
or Friday? Or am I making that up? It seems that the new language is
closer than what is in the last draft, perhaps we should put that in but
with the understanding that work continues.

AWK

> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> Of Larry Goldberg
> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:19 PM
> To: TEITAC Committee
> Cc: TEITAC AV list
> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>
> Our conference call today helped us reach further agreement
> and understanding of the issues - I will circulate the
> changes Thursday or Friday.
> We are grateful to Andi for suggestion the language we are
> now building on.
>
> ... Larry ...
>
>
> Peter Korn wrote:
>
> > Hi Gregg,
> >
> > I think we are getting closer, but aren't quite there yet.
> You have
> > substituted a single control for two controls - and assume that so
> > long as CC is as prominent as at least one of those two,
> the provision
> > would be satisfied. I'm trying to make a more general
> argument, using
> > devices like the iPhone or Nokia Internet Tablet as an
> example. The
> > more general argument is that it may make sense to have
> some controls (e.g.
> > volume) have tremendous prominence because they are used for all
> > functions of a multi-function device (e.g. volume of video
> playback,
> > and of a cell phone conversation, and of music, and ...), while
> > captioning may only make sense for a narrow feature of the
> device (one
> > can even imagine a multi-function programmable device not even
> > shipping with video playback functionality - only 3rd party
> software provides it).
> >
> > Therefore I am arguing for Andi's language, which states
> that: "...the
> > controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one
> location,
> > to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
> > selection...". Key is the "in at least one location".
> >
> > Another example are media PCs that include a couple of
> extra buttons
> > on them (think about a laptop that can play CDs [but NOT
> DVDs] without
> > otherwise booting, and have volume controls and track selection
> > buttons on them, and little else in hardware; but also have
> a software
> > GUI for greater control). If we went with language that didn't
> > include "in at least one location", then such a laptop
> would have to
> > have a CC button exposed on the case, even though such a
> button might
> > only be used for downloaded videos, simply because the
> volume control
> > on the case is used to control volume generally of the system.
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Peter Korn
> > Accessibility Architect,
> > Sun Microsystems, Inc.
> >
> >> Not sure I follow your discussion but let me try. Are
> you trying to talk
> >> about products like a phone (or a laptop) --where the
> volume is on the side
> >> of the product and play controls on screen? Hmmm. Yes
> I can see that
> >> putting the caption button on the side of the phone might
> be a hard
> >> sell (though I can see a host of mainstream benefits).
> >>
> >> So how about we change it slightly to say "at the same
> level of prominence
> >> as the channel changing or play controls. Again noting
> that it would just
> >> be a simple and not - large CC button - this could be done on
> >> hardware and software players of media that may be captioned.
> >>
> >> Gregg
> >> -- ------------------------------
> >> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Peter
> >>> Korn
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 1:12 PM
> >>> To: TEITAC Committee
> >>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
> >>>
> >>> Hi Gregg,
> >>>
> >>> A generalized hand held device with a large screen and few to no
> >>> buttons that plays videos (the Nokia N770, N800, and new N810 are
> >>> also examples of this; not just the iPhone) is, I agree, an
> >>> excellent example for discussion.
> >>>
> >>> If we used Andi's proposed language, then your suggested solution
> >>> (below) would meet the requirement: in one of the places where
> >>> someone can control the volume, they would also be able to turn
> >>> on/off closed captions with an interface of similar prominence.
> >>>
> >>> But what if you have to go through a general dialog box
> first when
> >>> you touch the device, and choose "media settings" to get
> to a second
> >>> dialog, where you can adjust the volume (and turn on/off
> cc)? Then
> >>> we have both a CC and volume setting that clearly aren't as
> >>> prominent as the physical volume button on the side of the device.
> >>>
> >>> This, to me, is an argument in favor of Andi's language.
> I think it
> >>> is especially important for small multi-function devices
> as we are
> >>> seeing with the iPhone and Nokia Internet Tablet series and so
> >>> forth; video playback is only one of many things they do,
> and while
> >>> a general volume control makes sense for everything these
> device do
> >>> (e.g. how loud is the phone conversation amplified?),
> captioning is
> >>> only for one thing that the device does.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>>
> >>> Peter Korn
> >>> Accessibility Architect,
> >>> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> The iPhone is a good example.
> >>>>
> >>>> The full screen is used for playback. But touching the
> >>>>
> >>> screen anywhere
> >>>
> >>>> calls up the play controls including the ability to
> >>>>
> >>> bookmark it play
> >>>
> >>>> stop/pause or jump to end and also to email it . These
> are the same
> >>>> controls that pop up when viewing a TV show (except for
> >>>>
> >>> bookmark and email).
> >>>
> >>>> But there is no way find any way to call up captions. Yet
> >>>>
> >>> it would be
> >>>
> >>>> easy to add a caption button to the display (which
> disappears a few
> >>>> seconds later). In fact I would bet that many people would
> >>>>
> >>> use these
> >>>
> >>>> to view the TV shows without audio at times - or when
> noisy. (and
> >>>> you-tube sometimes as well if they were captioned.)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Gregg
> >>>> -- ------------------------------
> >>>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> >>>>>
> >>> Behalf Of Peter
> >>>
> >>>>> Korn
> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:13 AM
> >>>>> To: TEITAC Committee
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hi Gregg, gang,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Another question: what about situations when playback
> of videos is
> >>>>> relatively incidental to the function of the device, *and*
> >>>>>
> >>> the device
> >>>
> >>>>> has only a very few keys. Many cell phones and PDAs are
> >>>>>
> >>> now playing
> >>>
> >>>>> videos (e.g. the iPhone with YouTube). I believe an
> argument was
> >>>>> made that as remote controls have so many buttons,
> >>>>>
> >>> requiring a "CC"
> >>>
> >>>>> button near the volume or mute button should not be a
> significant
> >>>>> demand.
> >>>>> Whether or not that is true, it certainly seems like
> adding a "CC"
> >>>>> button to a cell phone that is capable of playing videos
> >>>>>
> >>> is in fact a
> >>>
> >>>>> rather large change - especially for a phone that has
> >>>>>
> >>> perhaps only a
> >>>
> >>>>> very few buttons to begin with (though one of which is volume).
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Peter Korn
> >>>>> Accessibility Architect,
> >>>>> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Does this cover desktop/notebook/handheld computers and/or
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> phones (or
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> other future devices) that "display analog or digital
> >>>>>>
> >>> television" ?
> >>>
> >>>>>> In particular, the language seems to cover "Media
> PC's" that do
> >>>>>> display analog and digital television, some which have
> very small
> >>>>>> remotes that may not support:
> >>>>>> "controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> location,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
> >>>>>> selection, where the ability to control these features is
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> otherwise
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> provided."
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Another question: Are we discussing physical controls ? or
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> does this
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> also include "on screen" controls ?
> >>>>>> or both ?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Michael
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
> >>>>>> Hoffman, Allen
> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:39 AM
> >>>>>> To: TEITAC Committee
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for
> >>>>>> mechanismtoenable/disable captions
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Just a question:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Would this include a PC that can play DVD(s)? Is it
> >>>>>>
> >>> dependent upon
> >>>
> >>>>>> having a mechanical or touch operated volume control?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> Should a mute
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> button activate captioning or de-activate captioning? I
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> liked Andi's
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> language for this item myself. I believe the initial
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> constraint for
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> analog/digital television is those kinds of synchronized
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> media covered
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> as "broadcast" by FCC, but I could be wrong.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Allen Hoffman -- = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; v: 202-447-0303
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> Of Gregg
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Vanderheiden
> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:29 AM
> >>>>>> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> >>>>>> Cc: 'TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee'
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for
> mechanism
> >>>>>> toenable/disable captions
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Per request from the chairs here is a summary of the
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> points made in
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> my
> >>>>>> comments:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> * Current language uses "Analog or digital TV".
> But things are
> >>>>>> changing
> >>>>>> so fast that it is not clear what we will be using in 5 or
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> 10 years and
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> whether it will be called television. Or whether much of
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> it won't be
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> called television.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Why not require all players of material that may contain
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> captions to
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> have a captions on/off switch near the volume control.
> >>>>>>
> >>> It would be
> >>>
> >>>>>> easy, small and could be ubiquitous as well as very handy
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> for all users.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Gregg
> >>>>>> -- ------------------------------ Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> Behalf Of Andi
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Snow-Weaver
> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:00 PM
> >>>>>> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> >>>>>> Subject: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
> >>>>>> toenable/disable captions
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Here is the draft text I proposed during today's
> TEITAC meeting:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In products that receive or display analog or digital
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> television, the
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> location,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
> >>>>>> selection, where the ability to control these features is
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> otherwise
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> provided.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Andi
> >>>>>>

From: Larry Goldberg
Date: Wed, Oct 24 2007 8:40 PM
Subject: Re: Enable/disable Captions

Our conference call today helped us reach further agreement and
understanding of the issues - I will circulate the changes Thursday or
Friday.
We are grateful to Andi for suggestion the language we are now building on.

... Larry ...


Peter Korn wrote:

> Hi Gregg,
>
> I think we are getting closer, but aren't quite there yet. You have
> substituted a single control for two controls - and assume that so long
> as CC is as prominent as at least one of those two, the provision would
> be satisfied. I'm trying to make a more general argument, using devices
> like the iPhone or Nokia Internet Tablet as an example. The more
> general argument is that it may make sense to have some controls (e.g.
> volume) have tremendous prominence because they are used for all
> functions of a multi-function device (e.g. volume of video playback, and
> of a cell phone conversation, and of music, and ...), while captioning
> may only make sense for a narrow feature of the device (one can even
> imagine a multi-function programmable device not even shipping with
> video playback functionality - only 3rd party software provides it).
>
> Therefore I am arguing for Andi's language, which states that: "...the
> controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one location, to
> the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
> selection...". Key is the "in at least one location".
>
> Another example are media PCs that include a couple of extra buttons on
> them (think about a laptop that can play CDs [but NOT DVDs] without
> otherwise booting, and have volume controls and track selection buttons
> on them, and little else in hardware; but also have a software GUI for
> greater control). If we went with language that didn't include "in at
> least one location", then such a laptop would have to have a CC button
> exposed on the case, even though such a button might only be used for
> downloaded videos, simply because the volume control on the case is used
> to control volume generally of the system.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Peter Korn
> Accessibility Architect,
> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>
>> Not sure I follow your discussion but let me try. Are you trying to talk
>> about products like a phone (or a laptop) --where the volume is on the side
>> of the product and play controls on screen? Hmmm. Yes I can see that
>> putting the caption button on the side of the phone might be a hard sell
>> (though I can see a host of mainstream benefits).
>>
>> So how about we change it slightly to say "at the same level of prominence
>> as the channel changing or play controls. Again noting that it would just
>> be a simple and not - large CC button - this could be done on hardware and
>> software players of media that may be captioned.
>>
>> Gregg
>> -- ------------------------------
>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
>>> Of Peter Korn
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 1:12 PM
>>> To: TEITAC Committee
>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>>>
>>> Hi Gregg,
>>>
>>> A generalized hand held device with a large screen and few to
>>> no buttons that plays videos (the Nokia N770, N800, and new
>>> N810 are also examples of this; not just the iPhone) is, I
>>> agree, an excellent example for discussion.
>>>
>>> If we used Andi's proposed language, then your suggested solution
>>> (below) would meet the requirement: in one of the places
>>> where someone can control the volume, they would also be able
>>> to turn on/off closed captions with an interface of similar
>>> prominence.
>>>
>>> But what if you have to go through a general dialog box first
>>> when you touch the device, and choose "media settings" to get
>>> to a second dialog, where you can adjust the volume (and turn
>>> on/off cc)? Then we have both a CC and volume setting that
>>> clearly aren't as prominent as the physical volume button on
>>> the side of the device.
>>>
>>> This, to me, is an argument in favor of Andi's language. I
>>> think it is especially important for small multi-function
>>> devices as we are seeing with the iPhone and Nokia Internet
>>> Tablet series and so forth; video playback is only one of
>>> many things they do, and while a general volume control makes
>>> sense for everything these device do (e.g. how loud is the
>>> phone conversation amplified?), captioning is only for one
>>> thing that the device does.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Peter Korn
>>> Accessibility Architect,
>>> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>>>
>>>
>>>> The iPhone is a good example.
>>>>
>>>> The full screen is used for playback. But touching the
>>>>
>>> screen anywhere
>>>
>>>> calls up the play controls including the ability to
>>>>
>>> bookmark it play
>>>
>>>> stop/pause or jump to end and also to email it . These are the same
>>>> controls that pop up when viewing a TV show (except for
>>>>
>>> bookmark and email).
>>>
>>>> But there is no way find any way to call up captions. Yet
>>>>
>>> it would be
>>>
>>>> easy to add a caption button to the display (which disappears a few
>>>> seconds later). In fact I would bet that many people would
>>>>
>>> use these
>>>
>>>> to view the TV shows without audio at times - or when noisy. (and
>>>> you-tube sometimes as well if they were captioned.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gregg
>>>> -- ------------------------------
>>>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>>>>>
>>> Behalf Of Peter
>>>
>>>>> Korn
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:13 AM
>>>>> To: TEITAC Committee
>>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Gregg, gang,
>>>>>
>>>>> Another question: what about situations when playback of videos is
>>>>> relatively incidental to the function of the device, *and*
>>>>>
>>> the device
>>>
>>>>> has only a very few keys. Many cell phones and PDAs are
>>>>>
>>> now playing
>>>
>>>>> videos (e.g. the iPhone with YouTube). I believe an argument was
>>>>> made that as remote controls have so many buttons,
>>>>>
>>> requiring a "CC"
>>>
>>>>> button near the volume or mute button should not be a significant
>>>>> demand.
>>>>> Whether or not that is true, it certainly seems like adding a "CC"
>>>>> button to a cell phone that is capable of playing videos
>>>>>
>>> is in fact a
>>>
>>>>> rather large change - especially for a phone that has
>>>>>
>>> perhaps only a
>>>
>>>>> very few buttons to begin with (though one of which is volume).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter Korn
>>>>> Accessibility Architect,
>>>>> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Does this cover desktop/notebook/handheld computers and/or
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> phones (or
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> other future devices) that "display analog or digital
>>>>>>
>>> television" ?
>>>
>>>>>> In particular, the language seems to cover "Media PC's" that do
>>>>>> display analog and digital television, some which have very small
>>>>>> remotes that may not support:
>>>>>> "controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> location,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
>>>>>> selection, where the ability to control these features is
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> otherwise
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> provided."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Another question: Are we discussing physical controls ? or
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> does this
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> also include "on screen" controls ?
>>>>>> or both ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
>>>>>> Hoffman, Allen
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:39 AM
>>>>>> To: TEITAC Committee
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for
>>>>>> mechanismtoenable/disable captions
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just a question:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Would this include a PC that can play DVD(s)? Is it
>>>>>>
>>> dependent upon
>>>
>>>>>> having a mechanical or touch operated volume control?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Should a mute
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> button activate captioning or de-activate captioning? I
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> liked Andi's
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> language for this item myself. I believe the initial
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> constraint for
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> analog/digital television is those kinds of synchronized
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> media covered
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> as "broadcast" by FCC, but I could be wrong.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Allen Hoffman -- = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; v: 202-447-0303
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Of Gregg
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Vanderheiden
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:29 AM
>>>>>> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
>>>>>> Cc: 'TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee'
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
>>>>>> toenable/disable captions
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Per request from the chairs here is a summary of the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> points made in
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> my
>>>>>> comments:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Current language uses "Analog or digital TV". But things are
>>>>>> changing
>>>>>> so fast that it is not clear what we will be using in 5 or
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> 10 years and
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> whether it will be called television. Or whether much of
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> it won't be
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> called television.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why not require all players of material that may contain
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> captions to
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> have a captions on/off switch near the volume control.
>>>>>>
>>> It would be
>>>
>>>>>> easy, small and could be ubiquitous as well as very handy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> for all users.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Gregg
>>>>>> -- ------------------------------
>>>>>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Behalf Of Andi
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Snow-Weaver
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:00 PM
>>>>>> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
>>>>>> Subject: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
>>>>>> toenable/disable captions
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here is the draft text I proposed during today's TEITAC meeting:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In products that receive or display analog or digital
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> television, the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> location,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
>>>>>> selection, where the ability to control these features is
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> otherwise
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> provided.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andi
>>>>>>

From: Whitney Quesenbery
Date: Wed, Oct 24 2007 9:10 PM
Subject: Re: Enable/disable Captions

Speaking from the EWG:

We are closing additions to the draft at end-of-day on Friday, so that it
can go to the printer/brailler (and have the agreed-on two week review period)

But, we are also maintaining a "sandbox" of any updates or new material for
discussion that come in after that. This will be cross-linked with the main
draft, so it's easy to find.

So, either way, we will be able to compile the latest thinking, ready for
discussion at the November face-to-face.

Whitney



At 09:24 PM 10/24/2007, Andrew Kirkpatrick wrote:
>Don't we need to have the draft language for the next draft by tomorrow
>or Friday? Or am I making that up? It seems that the new language is
>closer than what is in the last draft, perhaps we should put that in but
>with the understanding that work continues.
>
>AWK


Whitney Quesenbery
Whitney Interactive Design
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
phone: 908-638-5467
mobile: 908-328-5959
www.WQusability.com
www.usabilityprofessionals.org

"Warning: Objects in the calendar are closer than they appear."

From: Gregg Vanderheiden
Date: Wed, Oct 24 2007 9:50 PM
Subject: Re: Enable/disable Captions

Inching closer each time.

First - I was looking for the language from the AV committee today - so we
don't go off in a parallel track. SO let me avoid proposing a provision for
this post and talk about the criteria for a successful provision. And ask
a question.

I think what we want to have is a provision which
1- addresses the basic need
2- doesn't restrict industry options any more than necessary to do #1
3- can't be perverted by bad actors leaving the good actors with no gain for
being good actors.

The "at least one location" makes me worry about #3. What if you put
volume controls in the menus next to the cc control. No one would use the
volume control there - but it would satisfy the provision. And be easy.
Less obvious techniques could also be used all with the effect that people
who just operate with the basic controls in front of them - (and there are
MANY that never venture into a menu or advanced controls) would not see the
CC or know where it was.

I do agree with the Volume that works with everything - so CC should
perhaps be associated with video controls not volume - argument. That is
why I didn't associate it with volume at all. (though it could be included
in list as long as it was accompanied by "OR Something else". I tried to
think of the controls that would be there. For TV it would be channels
selector. For Media it would be the play controls.

Thus:
"equal prominence to the channel selector, play controls [OR volume
control]".

I didn't say 'in at least one location' because of the concern above. But
maybe we could say "in at least one location used frequently by mainstream
users". or "in at least one of the primary locations for the controls"
or "in the primary location for one these controls"

The last one says primary for one of the controls.
- That would be the remote for most remotes.
- It would be the player controls for software players.
- For an Apple like device where the remote controller is just a navigation
device it could be on the on screen menus or controls (unless the remote
controller already has volume, play, and channel controls all on the little
controller.

I and many consumers are worried that if it is alongside 'one' control but
not one that anyone uses - they will never know to look there and use it.

Does this look like it might work? And if not - what would be the example
it would cause problems with (so we can better understand the constraint we
missed).



Thanks


Gregg
-- ------------------------------
Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto:teitac-committee-
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Peter Korn
> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 9:02 PM
> To: TEITAC Committee
> Cc: 'TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee'
> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>
> Hi Gregg,
>
> I think we are getting closer, but aren't quite there yet. You have
> substituted a single control for two controls - and assume that so long
> as CC is as prominent as at least one of those two, the provision would
> be satisfied. I'm trying to make a more general argument, using devices
> like the iPhone or Nokia Internet Tablet as an example. The more
> general argument is that it may make sense to have some controls (e.g.
> volume) have tremendous prominence because they are used for all
> functions of a multi-function device (e.g. volume of video playback, and
> of a cell phone conversation, and of music, and ...), while captioning
> may only make sense for a narrow feature of the device (one can even
> imagine a multi-function programmable device not even shipping with
> video playback functionality - only 3rd party software provides it).
>
> Therefore I am arguing for Andi's language, which states that: "...the
> controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one location, to
> the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
> selection...". Key is the "in at least one location".
>
> Another example are media PCs that include a couple of extra buttons on
> them (think about a laptop that can play CDs [but NOT DVDs] without
> otherwise booting, and have volume controls and track selection buttons
> on them, and little else in hardware; but also have a software GUI for
> greater control). If we went with language that didn't include "in at
> least one location", then such a laptop would have to have a CC button
> exposed on the case, even though such a button might only be used for
> downloaded videos, simply because the volume control on the case is used
> to control volume generally of the system.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Peter Korn
> Accessibility Architect,
> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>
> > Not sure I follow your discussion but let me try. Are you trying to
> talk
> > about products like a phone (or a laptop) --where the volume is on the
> side
> > of the product and play controls on screen? Hmmm. Yes I can see that
> > putting the caption button on the side of the phone might be a hard sell
> > (though I can see a host of mainstream benefits).
> >
> > So how about we change it slightly to say "at the same level of
> prominence
> > as the channel changing or play controls. Again noting that it would
> just
> > be a simple and not - large CC button - this could be done on hardware
> and
> > software players of media that may be captioned.
> >
> > Gregg
> > -- ------------------------------
> > Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> >> Of Peter Korn
> >> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 1:12 PM
> >> To: TEITAC Committee
> >> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
> >>
> >> Hi Gregg,
> >>
> >> A generalized hand held device with a large screen and few to
> >> no buttons that plays videos (the Nokia N770, N800, and new
> >> N810 are also examples of this; not just the iPhone) is, I
> >> agree, an excellent example for discussion.
> >>
> >> If we used Andi's proposed language, then your suggested solution
> >> (below) would meet the requirement: in one of the places
> >> where someone can control the volume, they would also be able
> >> to turn on/off closed captions with an interface of similar
> >> prominence.
> >>
> >> But what if you have to go through a general dialog box first
> >> when you touch the device, and choose "media settings" to get
> >> to a second dialog, where you can adjust the volume (and turn
> >> on/off cc)? Then we have both a CC and volume setting that
> >> clearly aren't as prominent as the physical volume button on
> >> the side of the device.
> >>
> >> This, to me, is an argument in favor of Andi's language. I
> >> think it is especially important for small multi-function
> >> devices as we are seeing with the iPhone and Nokia Internet
> >> Tablet series and so forth; video playback is only one of
> >> many things they do, and while a general volume control makes
> >> sense for everything these device do (e.g. how loud is the
> >> phone conversation amplified?), captioning is only for one
> >> thing that the device does.
> >>
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Peter Korn
> >> Accessibility Architect,
> >> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
> >>
> >>
> >>> The iPhone is a good example.
> >>>
> >>> The full screen is used for playback. But touching the
> >>>
> >> screen anywhere
> >>
> >>> calls up the play controls including the ability to
> >>>
> >> bookmark it play
> >>
> >>> stop/pause or jump to end and also to email it . These are the same
> >>> controls that pop up when viewing a TV show (except for
> >>>
> >> bookmark and email).
> >>
> >>> But there is no way find any way to call up captions. Yet
> >>>
> >> it would be
> >>
> >>> easy to add a caption button to the display (which disappears a few
> >>> seconds later). In fact I would bet that many people would
> >>>
> >> use these
> >>
> >>> to view the TV shows without audio at times - or when noisy. (and
> >>> you-tube sometimes as well if they were captioned.)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Gregg
> >>> -- ------------------------------
> >>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> >>>>
> >> Behalf Of Peter
> >>
> >>>> Korn
> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:13 AM
> >>>> To: TEITAC Committee
> >>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi Gregg, gang,
> >>>>
> >>>> Another question: what about situations when playback of videos is
> >>>> relatively incidental to the function of the device, *and*
> >>>>
> >> the device
> >>
> >>>> has only a very few keys. Many cell phones and PDAs are
> >>>>
> >> now playing
> >>
> >>>> videos (e.g. the iPhone with YouTube). I believe an argument was
> >>>> made that as remote controls have so many buttons,
> >>>>
> >> requiring a "CC"
> >>
> >>>> button near the volume or mute button should not be a significant
> >>>> demand.
> >>>> Whether or not that is true, it certainly seems like adding a "CC"
> >>>> button to a cell phone that is capable of playing videos
> >>>>
> >> is in fact a
> >>
> >>>> rather large change - especially for a phone that has
> >>>>
> >> perhaps only a
> >>
> >>>> very few buttons to begin with (though one of which is volume).
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>>
> >>>> Peter Korn
> >>>> Accessibility Architect,
> >>>> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Does this cover desktop/notebook/handheld computers and/or
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> phones (or
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> other future devices) that "display analog or digital
> >>>>>
> >> television" ?
> >>
> >>>>> In particular, the language seems to cover "Media PC's" that do
> >>>>> display analog and digital television, some which have very small
> >>>>> remotes that may not support:
> >>>>> "controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> location,
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
> >>>>> selection, where the ability to control these features is
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> otherwise
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> provided."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Another question: Are we discussing physical controls ? or
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> does this
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> also include "on screen" controls ?
> >>>>> or both ?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Michael
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
> >>>>> Hoffman, Allen
> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:39 AM
> >>>>> To: TEITAC Committee
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for
> >>>>> mechanismtoenable/disable captions
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Just a question:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Would this include a PC that can play DVD(s)? Is it
> >>>>>
> >> dependent upon
> >>
> >>>>> having a mechanical or touch operated volume control?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> Should a mute
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> button activate captioning or de-activate captioning? I
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> liked Andi's
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> language for this item myself. I believe the initial
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> constraint for
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> analog/digital television is those kinds of synchronized
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> media covered
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> as "broadcast" by FCC, but I could be wrong.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Allen Hoffman -- = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; v: 202-447-0303
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> Of Gregg
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Vanderheiden
> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:29 AM
> >>>>> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> >>>>> Cc: 'TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee'
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
> >>>>> toenable/disable captions
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Per request from the chairs here is a summary of the
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> points made in
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> my
> >>>>> comments:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> * Current language uses "Analog or digital TV". But things are
> >>>>> changing
> >>>>> so fast that it is not clear what we will be using in 5 or
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> 10 years and
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> whether it will be called television. Or whether much of
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> it won't be
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> called television.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Why not require all players of material that may contain
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> captions to
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> have a captions on/off switch near the volume control.
> >>>>>
> >> It would be
> >>
> >>>>> easy, small and could be ubiquitous as well as very handy
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> for all users.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Gregg
> >>>>> -- ------------------------------
> >>>>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> Behalf Of Andi
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Snow-Weaver
> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:00 PM
> >>>>> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> >>>>> Subject: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
> >>>>> toenable/disable captions
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Here is the draft text I proposed during today's TEITAC meeting:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In products that receive or display analog or digital
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> television, the
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> location,
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
> >>>>> selection, where the ability to control these features is
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> otherwise
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> provided.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Andi
> >>>>>

From: Gregg Vanderheiden
Date: Wed, Oct 24 2007 9:55 PM
Subject: Re: Enable/disable Captions

Inching closer each time.

First - I was looking for the language from the AV committee today - so we
don't go off in a parallel track. SO let me avoid proposing a provision for
this post and talk about the criteria for a successful provision. And ask
a question.

I think what we want to have is a provision which
1- addresses the basic need
2- doesn't restrict industry options any more than necessary to do #1
3- can't be perverted by bad actors leaving the good actors with no gain for
being good actors.

The "at least one location" makes me worry about #3. What if you put
volume controls in the menus next to the cc control. No one would use the
volume control there - but it would satisfy the provision. And be easy.
Less obvious techniques could also be used all with the effect that people
who just operate with the basic controls in front of them - (and there are
MANY that never venture into a menu or advanced controls) would not see the
CC or know where it was.

I do agree with the Volume that works with everything - so CC should
perhaps be associated with video controls not volume - argument. That is
why I didn't associate it with volume at all. (though it could be included
in list as long as it was accompanied by "OR Something else". I tried to
think of the controls that would be there. For TV it would be channels
selector. For Media it would be the play controls.

Thus:
"equal prominence to the channel selector, play controls [OR volume
control]".

I didn't say 'in at least one location' because of the concern above. But
maybe we could say "in at least one location used frequently by mainstream
users". or "in at least one of the primary locations for the controls"
or "in the primary location for one these controls"

The last one says primary for one of the controls.
- That would be the remote for most remotes.
- It would be the player controls for software players.
- For an Apple like device where the remote controller is just a navigation
device it could be on the on screen menus or controls (unless the remote
controller already has volume, play, and channel controls all on the little
controller.

I and many consumers are worried that if it is alongside 'one' control but
not one that anyone uses - they will never know to look there and use it.

Does this look like it might work? And if not - what would be the example
it would cause problems with (so we can better understand the constraint we
missed).



Thanks


Gregg
-- ------------------------------
Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto:teitac-committee-
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Peter Korn
> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 9:02 PM
> To: TEITAC Committee
> Cc: 'TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee'
> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>
> Hi Gregg,
>
> I think we are getting closer, but aren't quite there yet. You have
> substituted a single control for two controls - and assume that so long
> as CC is as prominent as at least one of those two, the provision would
> be satisfied. I'm trying to make a more general argument, using devices
> like the iPhone or Nokia Internet Tablet as an example. The more
> general argument is that it may make sense to have some controls (e.g.
> volume) have tremendous prominence because they are used for all
> functions of a multi-function device (e.g. volume of video playback, and
> of a cell phone conversation, and of music, and ...), while captioning
> may only make sense for a narrow feature of the device (one can even
> imagine a multi-function programmable device not even shipping with
> video playback functionality - only 3rd party software provides it).
>
> Therefore I am arguing for Andi's language, which states that: "...the
> controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one location, to
> the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
> selection...". Key is the "in at least one location".
>
> Another example are media PCs that include a couple of extra buttons on
> them (think about a laptop that can play CDs [but NOT DVDs] without
> otherwise booting, and have volume controls and track selection buttons
> on them, and little else in hardware; but also have a software GUI for
> greater control). If we went with language that didn't include "in at
> least one location", then such a laptop would have to have a CC button
> exposed on the case, even though such a button might only be used for
> downloaded videos, simply because the volume control on the case is used
> to control volume generally of the system.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Peter Korn
> Accessibility Architect,
> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>
> > Not sure I follow your discussion but let me try. Are you trying to
> talk
> > about products like a phone (or a laptop) --where the volume is on the
> side
> > of the product and play controls on screen? Hmmm. Yes I can see that
> > putting the caption button on the side of the phone might be a hard sell
> > (though I can see a host of mainstream benefits).
> >
> > So how about we change it slightly to say "at the same level of
> prominence
> > as the channel changing or play controls. Again noting that it would
> just
> > be a simple and not - large CC button - this could be done on hardware
> and
> > software players of media that may be captioned.
> >
> > Gregg
> > -- ------------------------------
> > Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> >> Of Peter Korn
> >> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 1:12 PM
> >> To: TEITAC Committee
> >> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
> >>
> >> Hi Gregg,
> >>
> >> A generalized hand held device with a large screen and few to
> >> no buttons that plays videos (the Nokia N770, N800, and new
> >> N810 are also examples of this; not just the iPhone) is, I
> >> agree, an excellent example for discussion.
> >>
> >> If we used Andi's proposed language, then your suggested solution
> >> (below) would meet the requirement: in one of the places
> >> where someone can control the volume, they would also be able
> >> to turn on/off closed captions with an interface of similar
> >> prominence.
> >>
> >> But what if you have to go through a general dialog box first
> >> when you touch the device, and choose "media settings" to get
> >> to a second dialog, where you can adjust the volume (and turn
> >> on/off cc)? Then we have both a CC and volume setting that
> >> clearly aren't as prominent as the physical volume button on
> >> the side of the device.
> >>
> >> This, to me, is an argument in favor of Andi's language. I
> >> think it is especially important for small multi-function
> >> devices as we are seeing with the iPhone and Nokia Internet
> >> Tablet series and so forth; video playback is only one of
> >> many things they do, and while a general volume control makes
> >> sense for everything these device do (e.g. how loud is the
> >> phone conversation amplified?), captioning is only for one
> >> thing that the device does.
> >>
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Peter Korn
> >> Accessibility Architect,
> >> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
> >>
> >>
> >>> The iPhone is a good example.
> >>>
> >>> The full screen is used for playback. But touching the
> >>>
> >> screen anywhere
> >>
> >>> calls up the play controls including the ability to
> >>>
> >> bookmark it play
> >>
> >>> stop/pause or jump to end and also to email it . These are the same
> >>> controls that pop up when viewing a TV show (except for
> >>>
> >> bookmark and email).
> >>
> >>> But there is no way find any way to call up captions. Yet
> >>>
> >> it would be
> >>
> >>> easy to add a caption button to the display (which disappears a few
> >>> seconds later). In fact I would bet that many people would
> >>>
> >> use these
> >>
> >>> to view the TV shows without audio at times - or when noisy. (and
> >>> you-tube sometimes as well if they were captioned.)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Gregg
> >>> -- ------------------------------
> >>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> >>>>
> >> Behalf Of Peter
> >>
> >>>> Korn
> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:13 AM
> >>>> To: TEITAC Committee
> >>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi Gregg, gang,
> >>>>
> >>>> Another question: what about situations when playback of videos is
> >>>> relatively incidental to the function of the device, *and*
> >>>>
> >> the device
> >>
> >>>> has only a very few keys. Many cell phones and PDAs are
> >>>>
> >> now playing
> >>
> >>>> videos (e.g. the iPhone with YouTube). I believe an argument was
> >>>> made that as remote controls have so many buttons,
> >>>>
> >> requiring a "CC"
> >>
> >>>> button near the volume or mute button should not be a significant
> >>>> demand.
> >>>> Whether or not that is true, it certainly seems like adding a "CC"
> >>>> button to a cell phone that is capable of playing videos
> >>>>
> >> is in fact a
> >>
> >>>> rather large change - especially for a phone that has
> >>>>
> >> perhaps only a
> >>
> >>>> very few buttons to begin with (though one of which is volume).
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>>
> >>>> Peter Korn
> >>>> Accessibility Architect,
> >>>> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Does this cover desktop/notebook/handheld computers and/or
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> phones (or
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> other future devices) that "display analog or digital
> >>>>>
> >> television" ?
> >>
> >>>>> In particular, the language seems to cover "Media PC's" that do
> >>>>> display analog and digital television, some which have very small
> >>>>> remotes that may not support:
> >>>>> "controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> location,
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
> >>>>> selection, where the ability to control these features is
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> otherwise
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> provided."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Another question: Are we discussing physical controls ? or
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> does this
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> also include "on screen" controls ?
> >>>>> or both ?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Michael
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
> >>>>> Hoffman, Allen
> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:39 AM
> >>>>> To: TEITAC Committee
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for
> >>>>> mechanismtoenable/disable captions
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Just a question:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Would this include a PC that can play DVD(s)? Is it
> >>>>>
> >> dependent upon
> >>
> >>>>> having a mechanical or touch operated volume control?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> Should a mute
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> button activate captioning or de-activate captioning? I
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> liked Andi's
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> language for this item myself. I believe the initial
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> constraint for
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> analog/digital television is those kinds of synchronized
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> media covered
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> as "broadcast" by FCC, but I could be wrong.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Allen Hoffman -- = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; v: 202-447-0303
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> Of Gregg
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Vanderheiden
> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:29 AM
> >>>>> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> >>>>> Cc: 'TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee'
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
> >>>>> toenable/disable captions
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Per request from the chairs here is a summary of the
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> points made in
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> my
> >>>>> comments:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> * Current language uses "Analog or digital TV". But things are
> >>>>> changing
> >>>>> so fast that it is not clear what we will be using in 5 or
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> 10 years and
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> whether it will be called television. Or whether much of
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> it won't be
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> called television.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Why not require all players of material that may contain
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> captions to
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> have a captions on/off switch near the volume control.
> >>>>>
> >> It would be
> >>
> >>>>> easy, small and could be ubiquitous as well as very handy
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> for all users.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Gregg
> >>>>> -- ------------------------------
> >>>>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> Behalf Of Andi
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Snow-Weaver
> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:00 PM
> >>>>> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
> >>>>> Subject: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
> >>>>> toenable/disable captions
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Here is the draft text I proposed during today's TEITAC meeting:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In products that receive or display analog or digital
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> television, the
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> location,
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
> >>>>> selection, where the ability to control these features is
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> otherwise
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> provided.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Andi
> >>>>>

From: Peter Korn
Date: Wed, Oct 24 2007 11:30 PM
Subject: Re: Enable/disable Captions

Hi Gregg,

I think at this point I should step back and leave the last bit of
inching to the consumer electronics manufacturers. "In at least one
primary location" or some variant of that covers all of the concerns
that I can think of.


Regards,

Peter Korn
Accessibility Architect,
Sun Microsystems, Inc.

> Inching closer each time.
>
> First - I was looking for the language from the AV committee today - so we
> don't go off in a parallel track. SO let me avoid proposing a provision for
> this post and talk about the criteria for a successful provision. And ask
> a question.
>
> I think what we want to have is a provision which
> 1- addresses the basic need
> 2- doesn't restrict industry options any more than necessary to do #1
> 3- can't be perverted by bad actors leaving the good actors with no gain for
> being good actors.
>
> The "at least one location" makes me worry about #3. What if you put
> volume controls in the menus next to the cc control. No one would use the
> volume control there - but it would satisfy the provision. And be easy.
> Less obvious techniques could also be used all with the effect that people
> who just operate with the basic controls in front of them - (and there are
> MANY that never venture into a menu or advanced controls) would not see the
> CC or know where it was.
>
> I do agree with the Volume that works with everything - so CC should
> perhaps be associated with video controls not volume - argument. That is
> why I didn't associate it with volume at all. (though it could be included
> in list as long as it was accompanied by "OR Something else". I tried to
> think of the controls that would be there. For TV it would be channels
> selector. For Media it would be the play controls.
>
> Thus:
> "equal prominence to the channel selector, play controls [OR volume
> control]".
>
> I didn't say 'in at least one location' because of the concern above. But
> maybe we could say "in at least one location used frequently by mainstream
> users". or "in at least one of the primary locations for the controls"
> or "in the primary location for one these controls"
>
> The last one says primary for one of the controls.
> - That would be the remote for most remotes.
> - It would be the player controls for software players.
> - For an Apple like device where the remote controller is just a navigation
> device it could be on the on screen menus or controls (unless the remote
> controller already has volume, play, and channel controls all on the little
> controller.
>
> I and many consumers are worried that if it is alongside 'one' control but
> not one that anyone uses - they will never know to look there and use it.
>
> Does this look like it might work? And if not - what would be the example
> it would cause problems with (so we can better understand the constraint we
> missed).
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
> Gregg
> -- ------------------------------
> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto:teitac-committee-
>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Peter Korn
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 9:02 PM
>> To: TEITAC Committee
>> Cc: 'TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee'
>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>>
>> Hi Gregg,
>>
>> I think we are getting closer, but aren't quite there yet. You have
>> substituted a single control for two controls - and assume that so long
>> as CC is as prominent as at least one of those two, the provision would
>> be satisfied. I'm trying to make a more general argument, using devices
>> like the iPhone or Nokia Internet Tablet as an example. The more
>> general argument is that it may make sense to have some controls (e.g.
>> volume) have tremendous prominence because they are used for all
>> functions of a multi-function device (e.g. volume of video playback, and
>> of a cell phone conversation, and of music, and ...), while captioning
>> may only make sense for a narrow feature of the device (one can even
>> imagine a multi-function programmable device not even shipping with
>> video playback functionality - only 3rd party software provides it).
>>
>> Therefore I am arguing for Andi's language, which states that: "...the
>> controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one location, to
>> the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
>> selection...". Key is the "in at least one location".
>>
>> Another example are media PCs that include a couple of extra buttons on
>> them (think about a laptop that can play CDs [but NOT DVDs] without
>> otherwise booting, and have volume controls and track selection buttons
>> on them, and little else in hardware; but also have a software GUI for
>> greater control). If we went with language that didn't include "in at
>> least one location", then such a laptop would have to have a CC button
>> exposed on the case, even though such a button might only be used for
>> downloaded videos, simply because the volume control on the case is used
>> to control volume generally of the system.
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Peter Korn
>> Accessibility Architect,
>> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>>
>>
>>> Not sure I follow your discussion but let me try. Are you trying to
>>>
>> talk
>>
>>> about products like a phone (or a laptop) --where the volume is on the
>>>
>> side
>>
>>> of the product and play controls on screen? Hmmm. Yes I can see that
>>> putting the caption button on the side of the phone might be a hard sell
>>> (though I can see a host of mainstream benefits).
>>>
>>> So how about we change it slightly to say "at the same level of
>>>
>> prominence
>>
>>> as the channel changing or play controls. Again noting that it would
>>>
>> just
>>
>>> be a simple and not - large CC button - this could be done on hardware
>>>
>> and
>>
>>> software players of media that may be captioned.
>>>
>>> Gregg
>>> -- ------------------------------
>>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
>>>> Of Peter Korn
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 1:12 PM
>>>> To: TEITAC Committee
>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>>>>
>>>> Hi Gregg,
>>>>
>>>> A generalized hand held device with a large screen and few to
>>>> no buttons that plays videos (the Nokia N770, N800, and new
>>>> N810 are also examples of this; not just the iPhone) is, I
>>>> agree, an excellent example for discussion.
>>>>
>>>> If we used Andi's proposed language, then your suggested solution
>>>> (below) would meet the requirement: in one of the places
>>>> where someone can control the volume, they would also be able
>>>> to turn on/off closed captions with an interface of similar
>>>> prominence.
>>>>
>>>> But what if you have to go through a general dialog box first
>>>> when you touch the device, and choose "media settings" to get
>>>> to a second dialog, where you can adjust the volume (and turn
>>>> on/off cc)? Then we have both a CC and volume setting that
>>>> clearly aren't as prominent as the physical volume button on
>>>> the side of the device.
>>>>
>>>> This, to me, is an argument in favor of Andi's language. I
>>>> think it is especially important for small multi-function
>>>> devices as we are seeing with the iPhone and Nokia Internet
>>>> Tablet series and so forth; video playback is only one of
>>>> many things they do, and while a general volume control makes
>>>> sense for everything these device do (e.g. how loud is the
>>>> phone conversation amplified?), captioning is only for one
>>>> thing that the device does.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Peter Korn
>>>> Accessibility Architect,
>>>> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The iPhone is a good example.
>>>>>
>>>>> The full screen is used for playback. But touching the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> screen anywhere
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> calls up the play controls including the ability to
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> bookmark it play
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> stop/pause or jump to end and also to email it . These are the same
>>>>> controls that pop up when viewing a TV show (except for
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> bookmark and email).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> But there is no way find any way to call up captions. Yet
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> it would be
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> easy to add a caption button to the display (which disappears a few
>>>>> seconds later). In fact I would bet that many people would
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> use these
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> to view the TV shows without audio at times - or when noisy. (and
>>>>> you-tube sometimes as well if they were captioned.)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Gregg
>>>>> -- ------------------------------
>>>>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> Behalf Of Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> Korn
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:13 AM
>>>>>> To: TEITAC Committee
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Gregg, gang,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Another question: what about situations when playback of videos is
>>>>>> relatively incidental to the function of the device, *and*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> the device
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> has only a very few keys. Many cell phones and PDAs are
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> now playing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> videos (e.g. the iPhone with YouTube). I believe an argument was
>>>>>> made that as remote controls have so many buttons,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> requiring a "CC"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> button near the volume or mute button should not be a significant
>>>>>> demand.
>>>>>> Whether or not that is true, it certainly seems like adding a "CC"
>>>>>> button to a cell phone that is capable of playing videos
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> is in fact a
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> rather large change - especially for a phone that has
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> perhaps only a
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> very few buttons to begin with (though one of which is volume).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter Korn
>>>>>> Accessibility Architect,
>>>>>> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does this cover desktop/notebook/handheld computers and/or
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> phones (or
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> other future devices) that "display analog or digital
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> television" ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> In particular, the language seems to cover "Media PC's" that do
>>>>>>> display analog and digital television, some which have very small
>>>>>>> remotes that may not support:
>>>>>>> "controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> location,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
>>>>>>> selection, where the ability to control these features is
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> otherwise
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> provided."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Another question: Are we discussing physical controls ? or
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> does this
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> also include "on screen" controls ?
>>>>>>> or both ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>> Hoffman, Allen
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:39 AM
>>>>>>> To: TEITAC Committee
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for
>>>>>>> mechanismtoenable/disable captions
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just a question:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Would this include a PC that can play DVD(s)? Is it
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> dependent upon
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> having a mechanical or touch operated volume control?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Should a mute
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> button activate captioning or de-activate captioning? I
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> liked Andi's
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> language for this item myself. I believe the initial
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> constraint for
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> analog/digital television is those kinds of synchronized
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> media covered
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> as "broadcast" by FCC, but I could be wrong.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Allen Hoffman -- = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; v: 202-447-0303
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of Gregg
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Vanderheiden
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:29 AM
>>>>>>> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
>>>>>>> Cc: 'TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee'
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
>>>>>>> toenable/disable captions
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Per request from the chairs here is a summary of the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> points made in
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>> comments:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * Current language uses "Analog or digital TV". But things are
>>>>>>> changing
>>>>>>> so fast that it is not clear what we will be using in 5 or
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> 10 years and
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> whether it will be called television. Or whether much of
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> it won't be
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> called television.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why not require all players of material that may contain
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> captions to
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> have a captions on/off switch near the volume control.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> It would be
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> easy, small and could be ubiquitous as well as very handy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> for all users.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gregg
>>>>>>> -- ------------------------------
>>>>>>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Behalf Of Andi
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Snow-Weaver
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:00 PM
>>>>>>> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
>>>>>>> Subject: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
>>>>>>> toenable/disable captions
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here is the draft text I proposed during today's TEITAC meeting:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In products that receive or display analog or digital
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> television, the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> location,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
>>>>>>> selection, where the ability to control these features is
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> otherwise
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> provided.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Andi
>>>>>>>

From: Sean Hayes
Date: Thu, Oct 25 2007 3:55 AM
Subject: Re: Enable/disable Captions

Here is my recollection of what we determined:

We would use the definition in 4A.1 as the type of products for which equal prominence was required.

Products as defined in 4A.2 would also need some means of turning them on/off, however as we have less understanding of emerging non TV form factors, and with the assumption that obtaining video on such devices already requires a relative degree of user sophistication, we would not require equal prominence in those cases, so this is already covered by 6C.

We also decided we would restrict the prominence requirement to just captions and video description controls.

We noted we do not currently have equal wording to 4A for video descriptions. Larry proposed rewording 4B to mirror 4A, however I'm not sure exactly what that would look like.

We agreed to move the proposed language out of 4A into its own provision and simply reference 4A.1 for its scope, however on reading it again it seems rather than make a new provision it would be better to add it to 6C.

Thus 6C would now read:

6C - Open or Closed Captions/Descriptions
At the time of playback, captions and/or video descriptions must be either (a) capable of being turned on and off ("closed"), or (b) visible or audible to all users ("open").

For products as defined in 4A.1 the controls to turn on or off captions and/or video descriptions must be comparable in prominence, in at least one location, to controls provided to control volume, or perform program selection, where the ability to control these features is otherwise provided.

-- personally I'm not sure the "where the ability..." part is strictly necessary.


If this is consistent with everyone else's notes, I suggest we forward to the EWG for inclusion this Friday.

Thanks,

Sean Hayes
Incubation Lab
Accessibility Business Unit
Microsoft

Office: +44 118 909 5867,
Mobile: +44 7875 091385


-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Larry Goldberg
Sent: 25 October 2007 03:27
To: TEITAC AV list
Subject: Re: [teitac-video] [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions

Not sure of the deadlines, but I am on the road all day tomorrow and tied up
much of Friday.

If anyone else has good notes of our call and can post the latest, that
would be great.

... Larry ...

From: Karen Peltz Strauss
Date: Thu, Oct 25 2007 6:45 AM
Subject: Re: Enable/disable Captions

Given the turn in our discussion, I am going to propose some very simple
language for the captioning and video description controls that apply to
products under 4A.1:

"For products that are covered under subpart 4-A.1, the user controls needed
to access closed captioning and video description must be comparable in
prominence to the controls needed to control volume and program selection."
(followed by the examples we have agreed on)

Rationale: Much of the debate that we had over the past few weeks was an
attempt to ensure that we not impose inappropriate obligations on products
that, in the past, were not traditionally used for television programming,
such as cell phones, PDAs, and smaller or computer-type electronic devices.
4-A.1 ONLY applies to television receivers/tuners that are covered under the
FCC's captioning rules. These devices routinely have remote controls, and
always have a hardware place to control volume and program selection - on
the remote control and sometimes on the television apparatus. Thus, we no
longer need the phrase at the end that had begun with "where available." I
have also removed the phrase "in at least one location" because for these
types of devices, where there is typically a physical (hard) control, there
needs to be a similarly hard control for these accessibility features. As I
mentioned yesterday, I am concerned, like Gregg, that if there is a second
place to control the volume and program selection on a menu, the "at least
one location" language would allow placement of the captioning/vd controls
to be buried there, and we are back where we started from. If, as Larry
suggested yesterday, television type devices do not typically have this
alternative - then the outcome is still the same.

I am hoping this language for products under 4-A.1is acceptable to the
group. I remain open to different language to cover the other types of
devices. However, I do not recall that we agreed on not requiring
prominence for these controls on those types of devices. Remember, the
whole point of this is not just to have controls, but to place them in a
location where users can find them.

Karen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sean Hayes" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 5:51 AM
Subject: Re: [teitac-video] [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions


> Here is my recollection of what we determined:
>
> We would use the definition in 4A.1 as the type of products for which
> equal prominence was required.
>
> Products as defined in 4A.2 would also need some means of turning them
> on/off, however as we have less understanding of emerging non TV form
> factors, and with the assumption that obtaining video on such devices
> already requires a relative degree of user sophistication, we would not
> require equal prominence in those cases, so this is already covered by 6C.
>
> We also decided we would restrict the prominence requirement to just
> captions and video description controls.
>
> We noted we do not currently have equal wording to 4A for video
> descriptions. Larry proposed rewording 4B to mirror 4A, however I'm not
> sure exactly what that would look like.
>
> We agreed to move the proposed language out of 4A into its own provision
> and simply reference 4A.1 for its scope, however on reading it again it
> seems rather than make a new provision it would be better to add it to 6C.
>
> Thus 6C would now read:
>
> 6C - Open or Closed Captions/Descriptions
> At the time of playback, captions and/or video descriptions must be either
> (a) capable of being turned on and off ("closed"), or (b) visible or
> audible to all users ("open").
>
> For products as defined in 4A.1 the controls to turn on or off captions
> and/or video descriptions must be comparable in prominence, in at least
> one location, to controls provided to control volume, or perform program
> selection, where the ability to control these features is otherwise
> provided.
>
> -- personally I'm not sure the "where the ability..." part is strictly
> necessary.
>
>
> If this is consistent with everyone else's notes, I suggest we forward to
> the EWG for inclusion this Friday.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Sean Hayes
> Incubation Lab
> Accessibility Business Unit
> Microsoft
>
> Office: +44 118 909 5867,
> Mobile: +44 7875 091385
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Larry Goldberg
> Sent: 25 October 2007 03:27
> To: TEITAC AV list
> Subject: Re: [teitac-video] [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>
> Not sure of the deadlines, but I am on the road all day tomorrow and tied
> up
> much of Friday.
>
> If anyone else has good notes of our call and can post the latest, that
> would be great.
>
> ... Larry ...
>
>

From: Jasionowski, Tony
Date: Thu, Oct 25 2007 8:00 AM
Subject: Re: Enable/disable Captions

Folks,
Panasonic originally proposed and discussed adding "in at least one
location", for similar reasons that Peter referenced, since we do not
feel that we need to have such redundant caption controls in all
locations.
In the case of TV we prefer the option and flexibility of adding such
caption control preferable on the remote control rather than the TV
itself especially when we consider the trend towards thinner and slimmer
flat panel TVs with smaller bezels. This is even more of an issue with
even smaller devices such as mobile telephones.
In conclusion, we prefer to maintain "in at least one location".
Thanks.
Tony Jasionowski
Panasonic
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Peter
Korn
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:02 PM
To: TEITAC Committee
Cc: 'TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee'
Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions

Hi Gregg,

I think we are getting closer, but aren't quite there yet. You have
substituted a single control for two controls - and assume that so long
as CC is as prominent as at least one of those two, the provision would
be satisfied. I'm trying to make a more general argument, using devices

like the iPhone or Nokia Internet Tablet as an example. The more
general argument is that it may make sense to have some controls (e.g.
volume) have tremendous prominence because they are used for all
functions of a multi-function device (e.g. volume of video playback, and

of a cell phone conversation, and of music, and ...), while captioning
may only make sense for a narrow feature of the device (one can even
imagine a multi-function programmable device not even shipping with
video playback functionality - only 3rd party software provides it).

Therefore I am arguing for Andi's language, which states that: "...the
controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one location, to
the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
selection...". Key is the "in at least one location".

Another example are media PCs that include a couple of extra buttons on
them (think about a laptop that can play CDs [but NOT DVDs] without
otherwise booting, and have volume controls and track selection buttons
on them, and little else in hardware; but also have a software GUI for
greater control). If we went with language that didn't include "in at
least one location", then such a laptop would have to have a CC button
exposed on the case, even though such a button might only be used for
downloaded videos, simply because the volume control on the case is used

to control volume generally of the system.


Regards,

Peter Korn
Accessibility Architect,
Sun Microsystems, Inc.

> Not sure I follow your discussion but let me try. Are you trying to
talk
> about products like a phone (or a laptop) --where the volume is on the
side
> of the product and play controls on screen? Hmmm. Yes I can see
that
> putting the caption button on the side of the phone might be a hard
sell
> (though I can see a host of mainstream benefits).
>
> So how about we change it slightly to say "at the same level of
prominence
> as the channel changing or play controls. Again noting that it would
just
> be a simple and not - large CC button - this could be done on hardware
and
> software players of media that may be captioned.
>
> Gregg
> -- ------------------------------
> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
>> Of Peter Korn
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 1:12 PM
>> To: TEITAC Committee
>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>>
>> Hi Gregg,
>>
>> A generalized hand held device with a large screen and few to
>> no buttons that plays videos (the Nokia N770, N800, and new
>> N810 are also examples of this; not just the iPhone) is, I
>> agree, an excellent example for discussion.
>>
>> If we used Andi's proposed language, then your suggested solution
>> (below) would meet the requirement: in one of the places
>> where someone can control the volume, they would also be able
>> to turn on/off closed captions with an interface of similar
>> prominence.
>>
>> But what if you have to go through a general dialog box first
>> when you touch the device, and choose "media settings" to get
>> to a second dialog, where you can adjust the volume (and turn
>> on/off cc)? Then we have both a CC and volume setting that
>> clearly aren't as prominent as the physical volume button on
>> the side of the device.
>>
>> This, to me, is an argument in favor of Andi's language. I
>> think it is especially important for small multi-function
>> devices as we are seeing with the iPhone and Nokia Internet
>> Tablet series and so forth; video playback is only one of
>> many things they do, and while a general volume control makes
>> sense for everything these device do (e.g. how loud is the
>> phone conversation amplified?), captioning is only for one
>> thing that the device does.
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Peter Korn
>> Accessibility Architect,
>> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>>
>>
>>> The iPhone is a good example.
>>>
>>> The full screen is used for playback. But touching the
>>>
>> screen anywhere
>>
>>> calls up the play controls including the ability to
>>>
>> bookmark it play
>>
>>> stop/pause or jump to end and also to email it . These are the same
>>> controls that pop up when viewing a TV show (except for
>>>
>> bookmark and email).
>>
>>> But there is no way find any way to call up captions. Yet
>>>
>> it would be
>>
>>> easy to add a caption button to the display (which disappears a few
>>> seconds later). In fact I would bet that many people would
>>>
>> use these
>>
>>> to view the TV shows without audio at times - or when noisy. (and
>>> you-tube sometimes as well if they were captioned.)
>>>
>>>
>>> Gregg
>>> -- ------------------------------
>>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>>>>
>> Behalf Of Peter
>>
>>>> Korn
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:13 AM
>>>> To: TEITAC Committee
>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>>>>
>>>> Hi Gregg, gang,
>>>>
>>>> Another question: what about situations when playback of videos is
>>>> relatively incidental to the function of the device, *and*
>>>>
>> the device
>>
>>>> has only a very few keys. Many cell phones and PDAs are
>>>>
>> now playing
>>
>>>> videos (e.g. the iPhone with YouTube). I believe an argument was
>>>> made that as remote controls have so many buttons,
>>>>
>> requiring a "CC"
>>
>>>> button near the volume or mute button should not be a significant
>>>> demand.
>>>> Whether or not that is true, it certainly seems like adding a "CC"
>>>> button to a cell phone that is capable of playing videos
>>>>
>> is in fact a
>>
>>>> rather large change - especially for a phone that has
>>>>
>> perhaps only a
>>
>>>> very few buttons to begin with (though one of which is volume).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Peter Korn
>>>> Accessibility Architect,
>>>> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Does this cover desktop/notebook/handheld computers and/or
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> phones (or
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> other future devices) that "display analog or digital
>>>>>
>> television" ?
>>
>>>>> In particular, the language seems to cover "Media PC's" that do
>>>>> display analog and digital television, some which have very small
>>>>> remotes that may not support:
>>>>> "controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> location,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
>>>>> selection, where the ability to control these features is
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> otherwise
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> provided."
>>>>>
>>>>> Another question: Are we discussing physical controls ? or
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> does this
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> also include "on screen" controls ?
>>>>> or both ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
>>>>> Hoffman, Allen
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:39 AM
>>>>> To: TEITAC Committee
>>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for
>>>>> mechanismtoenable/disable captions
>>>>>
>>>>> Just a question:
>>>>>
>>>>> Would this include a PC that can play DVD(s)? Is it
>>>>>
>> dependent upon
>>
>>>>> having a mechanical or touch operated volume control?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Should a mute
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> button activate captioning or de-activate captioning? I
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> liked Andi's
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> language for this item myself. I believe the initial
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> constraint for
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> analog/digital television is those kinds of synchronized
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> media covered
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> as "broadcast" by FCC, but I could be wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> Allen Hoffman -- = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; v: 202-447-0303
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Of Gregg
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Vanderheiden
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:29 AM
>>>>> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
>>>>> Cc: 'TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
>>>>> toenable/disable captions
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>
>>>>> Per request from the chairs here is a summary of the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> points made in
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> my
>>>>> comments:
>>>>>
>>>>> * Current language uses "Analog or digital TV". But things are
>>>>> changing
>>>>> so fast that it is not clear what we will be using in 5 or
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> 10 years and
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> whether it will be called television. Or whether much of
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> it won't be
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> called television.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why not require all players of material that may contain
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> captions to
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> have a captions on/off switch near the volume control.
>>>>>
>> It would be
>>
>>>>> easy, small and could be ubiquitous as well as very handy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> for all users.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Gregg
>>>>> -- ------------------------------
>>>>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Behalf Of Andi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Snow-Weaver
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:00 PM
>>>>> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
>>>>> Subject: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
>>>>> toenable/disable captions
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Here is the draft text I proposed during today's TEITAC meeting:
>>>>>
>>>>> In products that receive or display analog or digital
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> television, the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> location,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
>>>>> selection, where the ability to control these features is
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> otherwise
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> provided.
>>>>>
>>>>> Andi
>>>>>

From: Jasionowski, Tony
Date: Thu, Oct 25 2007 8:05 AM
Subject: Re: Enable/disable Captions

Folks,
Panasonic originally proposed and discussed adding "in at least one
location", for similar reasons that Peter referenced, since we do not
feel that we need to have such redundant caption controls in all
locations.
In the case of TV we prefer the option and flexibility of adding such
caption control preferable on the remote control rather than the TV
itself especially when we consider the trend towards thinner and slimmer
flat panel TVs with smaller bezels. This is even more of an issue with
even smaller devices such as mobile telephones.
In conclusion, we prefer to maintain "in at least one location".
Thanks.
Tony Jasionowski
Panasonic
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Peter
Korn
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:02 PM
To: TEITAC Committee
Cc: 'TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee'
Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions

Hi Gregg,

I think we are getting closer, but aren't quite there yet. You have
substituted a single control for two controls - and assume that so long
as CC is as prominent as at least one of those two, the provision would
be satisfied. I'm trying to make a more general argument, using devices

like the iPhone or Nokia Internet Tablet as an example. The more
general argument is that it may make sense to have some controls (e.g.
volume) have tremendous prominence because they are used for all
functions of a multi-function device (e.g. volume of video playback, and

of a cell phone conversation, and of music, and ...), while captioning
may only make sense for a narrow feature of the device (one can even
imagine a multi-function programmable device not even shipping with
video playback functionality - only 3rd party software provides it).

Therefore I am arguing for Andi's language, which states that: "...the
controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one location, to
the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
selection...". Key is the "in at least one location".

Another example are media PCs that include a couple of extra buttons on
them (think about a laptop that can play CDs [but NOT DVDs] without
otherwise booting, and have volume controls and track selection buttons
on them, and little else in hardware; but also have a software GUI for
greater control). If we went with language that didn't include "in at
least one location", then such a laptop would have to have a CC button
exposed on the case, even though such a button might only be used for
downloaded videos, simply because the volume control on the case is used

to control volume generally of the system.


Regards,

Peter Korn
Accessibility Architect,
Sun Microsystems, Inc.

> Not sure I follow your discussion but let me try. Are you trying to
talk
> about products like a phone (or a laptop) --where the volume is on the
side
> of the product and play controls on screen? Hmmm. Yes I can see
that
> putting the caption button on the side of the phone might be a hard
sell
> (though I can see a host of mainstream benefits).
>
> So how about we change it slightly to say "at the same level of
prominence
> as the channel changing or play controls. Again noting that it would
just
> be a simple and not - large CC button - this could be done on hardware
and
> software players of media that may be captioned.
>
> Gregg
> -- ------------------------------
> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
>> Of Peter Korn
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 1:12 PM
>> To: TEITAC Committee
>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>>
>> Hi Gregg,
>>
>> A generalized hand held device with a large screen and few to
>> no buttons that plays videos (the Nokia N770, N800, and new
>> N810 are also examples of this; not just the iPhone) is, I
>> agree, an excellent example for discussion.
>>
>> If we used Andi's proposed language, then your suggested solution
>> (below) would meet the requirement: in one of the places
>> where someone can control the volume, they would also be able
>> to turn on/off closed captions with an interface of similar
>> prominence.
>>
>> But what if you have to go through a general dialog box first
>> when you touch the device, and choose "media settings" to get
>> to a second dialog, where you can adjust the volume (and turn
>> on/off cc)? Then we have both a CC and volume setting that
>> clearly aren't as prominent as the physical volume button on
>> the side of the device.
>>
>> This, to me, is an argument in favor of Andi's language. I
>> think it is especially important for small multi-function
>> devices as we are seeing with the iPhone and Nokia Internet
>> Tablet series and so forth; video playback is only one of
>> many things they do, and while a general volume control makes
>> sense for everything these device do (e.g. how loud is the
>> phone conversation amplified?), captioning is only for one
>> thing that the device does.
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Peter Korn
>> Accessibility Architect,
>> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>>
>>
>>> The iPhone is a good example.
>>>
>>> The full screen is used for playback. But touching the
>>>
>> screen anywhere
>>
>>> calls up the play controls including the ability to
>>>
>> bookmark it play
>>
>>> stop/pause or jump to end and also to email it . These are the same
>>> controls that pop up when viewing a TV show (except for
>>>
>> bookmark and email).
>>
>>> But there is no way find any way to call up captions. Yet
>>>
>> it would be
>>
>>> easy to add a caption button to the display (which disappears a few
>>> seconds later). In fact I would bet that many people would
>>>
>> use these
>>
>>> to view the TV shows without audio at times - or when noisy. (and
>>> you-tube sometimes as well if they were captioned.)
>>>
>>>
>>> Gregg
>>> -- ------------------------------
>>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>>>>
>> Behalf Of Peter
>>
>>>> Korn
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:13 AM
>>>> To: TEITAC Committee
>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>>>>
>>>> Hi Gregg, gang,
>>>>
>>>> Another question: what about situations when playback of videos is
>>>> relatively incidental to the function of the device, *and*
>>>>
>> the device
>>
>>>> has only a very few keys. Many cell phones and PDAs are
>>>>
>> now playing
>>
>>>> videos (e.g. the iPhone with YouTube). I believe an argument was
>>>> made that as remote controls have so many buttons,
>>>>
>> requiring a "CC"
>>
>>>> button near the volume or mute button should not be a significant
>>>> demand.
>>>> Whether or not that is true, it certainly seems like adding a "CC"
>>>> button to a cell phone that is capable of playing videos
>>>>
>> is in fact a
>>
>>>> rather large change - especially for a phone that has
>>>>
>> perhaps only a
>>
>>>> very few buttons to begin with (though one of which is volume).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Peter Korn
>>>> Accessibility Architect,
>>>> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Does this cover desktop/notebook/handheld computers and/or
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> phones (or
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> other future devices) that "display analog or digital
>>>>>
>> television" ?
>>
>>>>> In particular, the language seems to cover "Media PC's" that do
>>>>> display analog and digital television, some which have very small
>>>>> remotes that may not support:
>>>>> "controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> location,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
>>>>> selection, where the ability to control these features is
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> otherwise
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> provided."
>>>>>
>>>>> Another question: Are we discussing physical controls ? or
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> does this
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> also include "on screen" controls ?
>>>>> or both ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
>>>>> Hoffman, Allen
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:39 AM
>>>>> To: TEITAC Committee
>>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for
>>>>> mechanismtoenable/disable captions
>>>>>
>>>>> Just a question:
>>>>>
>>>>> Would this include a PC that can play DVD(s)? Is it
>>>>>
>> dependent upon
>>
>>>>> having a mechanical or touch operated volume control?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Should a mute
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> button activate captioning or de-activate captioning? I
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> liked Andi's
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> language for this item myself. I believe the initial
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> constraint for
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> analog/digital television is those kinds of synchronized
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> media covered
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> as "broadcast" by FCC, but I could be wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> Allen Hoffman -- = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; v: 202-447-0303
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Of Gregg
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Vanderheiden
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:29 AM
>>>>> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
>>>>> Cc: 'TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
>>>>> toenable/disable captions
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>
>>>>> Per request from the chairs here is a summary of the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> points made in
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> my
>>>>> comments:
>>>>>
>>>>> * Current language uses "Analog or digital TV". But things are
>>>>> changing
>>>>> so fast that it is not clear what we will be using in 5 or
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> 10 years and
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> whether it will be called television. Or whether much of
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> it won't be
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> called television.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why not require all players of material that may contain
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> captions to
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> have a captions on/off switch near the volume control.
>>>>>
>> It would be
>>
>>>>> easy, small and could be ubiquitous as well as very handy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> for all users.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Gregg
>>>>> -- ------------------------------
>>>>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Behalf Of Andi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Snow-Weaver
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:00 PM
>>>>> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
>>>>> Subject: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
>>>>> toenable/disable captions
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Here is the draft text I proposed during today's TEITAC meeting:
>>>>>
>>>>> In products that receive or display analog or digital
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> television, the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> location,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
>>>>> selection, where the ability to control these features is
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> otherwise
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> provided.
>>>>>
>>>>> Andi
>>>>>

From: Takemura, Michael (HP Accessibility)
Date: Thu, Oct 25 2007 8:10 AM
Subject: Enable/disable Captions

HP would concur with Panasonic with the language "in at least one
location".

Good suggestion Paul.

Michael

Michael Takemura
HP, Director, Accessibility Program

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
Jasionowski, Tony
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 8:53 AM
To: TEITAC Committee; TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee
Subject: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions

Folks,
Panasonic originally proposed and discussed adding "in at least one
location", for similar reasons that Peter referenced, since we do not
feel that we need to have such redundant caption controls in all
locations.
In the case of TV we prefer the option and flexibility of adding such
caption control preferable on the remote control rather than the TV
itself especially when we consider the trend towards thinner and slimmer
flat panel TVs with smaller bezels. This is even more of an issue with
even smaller devices such as mobile telephones.
In conclusion, we prefer to maintain "in at least one location".
Thanks.
Tony Jasionowski
Panasonic
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Peter
Korn
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:02 PM
To: TEITAC Committee
Cc: 'TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee'
Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions

Hi Gregg,

I think we are getting closer, but aren't quite there yet. You have
substituted a single control for two controls - and assume that so long
as CC is as prominent as at least one of those two, the provision would
be satisfied. I'm trying to make a more general argument, using devices

like the iPhone or Nokia Internet Tablet as an example. The more
general argument is that it may make sense to have some controls (e.g.
volume) have tremendous prominence because they are used for all
functions of a multi-function device (e.g. volume of video playback, and

of a cell phone conversation, and of music, and ...), while captioning
may only make sense for a narrow feature of the device (one can even
imagine a multi-function programmable device not even shipping with
video playback functionality - only 3rd party software provides it).

Therefore I am arguing for Andi's language, which states that: "...the
controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one location, to
the controls needed to control volume, or perform program selection...".
Key is the "in at least one location".

Another example are media PCs that include a couple of extra buttons on
them (think about a laptop that can play CDs [but NOT DVDs] without
otherwise booting, and have volume controls and track selection buttons
on them, and little else in hardware; but also have a software GUI for
greater control). If we went with language that didn't include "in at
least one location", then such a laptop would have to have a CC button
exposed on the case, even though such a button might only be used for
downloaded videos, simply because the volume control on the case is used

to control volume generally of the system.


Regards,

Peter Korn
Accessibility Architect,
Sun Microsystems, Inc.

> Not sure I follow your discussion but let me try. Are you trying to
talk
> about products like a phone (or a laptop) --where the volume is on the
side
> of the product and play controls on screen? Hmmm. Yes I can see
that
> putting the caption button on the side of the phone might be a hard
sell
> (though I can see a host of mainstream benefits).
>
> So how about we change it slightly to say "at the same level of
prominence
> as the channel changing or play controls. Again noting that it would
just
> be a simple and not - large CC button - this could be done on hardware
and
> software players of media that may be captioned.
>
> Gregg
> -- ------------------------------
> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Peter
>> Korn
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 1:12 PM
>> To: TEITAC Committee
>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>>
>> Hi Gregg,
>>
>> A generalized hand held device with a large screen and few to no
>> buttons that plays videos (the Nokia N770, N800, and new N810 are
>> also examples of this; not just the iPhone) is, I agree, an excellent

>> example for discussion.
>>
>> If we used Andi's proposed language, then your suggested solution
>> (below) would meet the requirement: in one of the places where
>> someone can control the volume, they would also be able to turn
>> on/off closed captions with an interface of similar prominence.
>>
>> But what if you have to go through a general dialog box first when
>> you touch the device, and choose "media settings" to get to a second
>> dialog, where you can adjust the volume (and turn on/off cc)? Then
>> we have both a CC and volume setting that clearly aren't as prominent

>> as the physical volume button on the side of the device.
>>
>> This, to me, is an argument in favor of Andi's language. I think it
>> is especially important for small multi-function devices as we are
>> seeing with the iPhone and Nokia Internet Tablet series and so forth;

>> video playback is only one of many things they do, and while a
>> general volume control makes sense for everything these device do
>> (e.g. how loud is the phone conversation amplified?), captioning is
>> only for one thing that the device does.
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Peter Korn
>> Accessibility Architect,
>> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>>
>>
>>> The iPhone is a good example.
>>>
>>> The full screen is used for playback. But touching the
>>>
>> screen anywhere
>>
>>> calls up the play controls including the ability to
>>>
>> bookmark it play
>>
>>> stop/pause or jump to end and also to email it . These are the same
>>> controls that pop up when viewing a TV show (except for
>>>
>> bookmark and email).
>>
>>> But there is no way find any way to call up captions. Yet
>>>
>> it would be
>>
>>> easy to add a caption button to the display (which disappears a few
>>> seconds later). In fact I would bet that many people would
>>>
>> use these
>>
>>> to view the TV shows without audio at times - or when noisy. (and
>>> you-tube sometimes as well if they were captioned.)
>>>
>>>
>>> Gregg
>>> -- ------------------------------
>>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>>>>
>> Behalf Of Peter
>>
>>>> Korn
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:13 AM
>>>> To: TEITAC Committee
>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>>>>
>>>> Hi Gregg, gang,
>>>>
>>>> Another question: what about situations when playback of videos is
>>>> relatively incidental to the function of the device, *and*
>>>>
>> the device
>>
>>>> has only a very few keys. Many cell phones and PDAs are
>>>>
>> now playing
>>
>>>> videos (e.g. the iPhone with YouTube). I believe an argument was
>>>> made that as remote controls have so many buttons,
>>>>
>> requiring a "CC"
>>
>>>> button near the volume or mute button should not be a significant
>>>> demand.
>>>> Whether or not that is true, it certainly seems like adding a "CC"
>>>> button to a cell phone that is capable of playing videos
>>>>
>> is in fact a
>>
>>>> rather large change - especially for a phone that has
>>>>
>> perhaps only a
>>
>>>> very few buttons to begin with (though one of which is volume).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Peter Korn
>>>> Accessibility Architect,
>>>> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Does this cover desktop/notebook/handheld computers and/or
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> phones (or
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> other future devices) that "display analog or digital
>>>>>
>> television" ?
>>
>>>>> In particular, the language seems to cover "Media PC's" that do
>>>>> display analog and digital television, some which have very small
>>>>> remotes that may not support:
>>>>> "controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> location,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
>>>>> selection, where the ability to control these features is
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> otherwise
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> provided."
>>>>>
>>>>> Another question: Are we discussing physical controls ? or
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> does this
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> also include "on screen" controls ?
>>>>> or both ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
>>>>> Hoffman, Allen
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:39 AM
>>>>> To: TEITAC Committee
>>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for
>>>>> mechanismtoenable/disable captions
>>>>>
>>>>> Just a question:
>>>>>
>>>>> Would this include a PC that can play DVD(s)? Is it
>>>>>
>> dependent upon
>>
>>>>> having a mechanical or touch operated volume control?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Should a mute
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> button activate captioning or de-activate captioning? I
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> liked Andi's
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> language for this item myself. I believe the initial
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> constraint for
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> analog/digital television is those kinds of synchronized
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> media covered
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> as "broadcast" by FCC, but I could be wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> Allen Hoffman -- = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; v: 202-447-0303
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Of Gregg
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Vanderheiden
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:29 AM
>>>>> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
>>>>> Cc: 'TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
>>>>> toenable/disable captions
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>
>>>>> Per request from the chairs here is a summary of the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> points made in
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> my
>>>>> comments:
>>>>>
>>>>> * Current language uses "Analog or digital TV". But things are
>>>>> changing
>>>>> so fast that it is not clear what we will be using in 5 or
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> 10 years and
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> whether it will be called television. Or whether much of
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> it won't be
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> called television.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why not require all players of material that may contain
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> captions to
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> have a captions on/off switch near the volume control.
>>>>>
>> It would be
>>
>>>>> easy, small and could be ubiquitous as well as very handy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> for all users.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Gregg
>>>>> -- ------------------------------ Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Behalf Of Andi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Snow-Weaver
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:00 PM
>>>>> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
>>>>> Subject: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
>>>>> toenable/disable captions
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Here is the draft text I proposed during today's TEITAC meeting:
>>>>>
>>>>> In products that receive or display analog or digital
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> television, the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> location,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
>>>>> selection, where the ability to control these features is
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> otherwise
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> provided.
>>>>>
>>>>> Andi
>>>>>

From: Takemura, Michael (HP Accessibility)
Date: Thu, Oct 25 2007 8:15 AM
Subject: Enable/disable Captions

HP would concur with Panasonic with the language "in at least one
location".

Good suggestion Paul.

Michael

Michael Takemura
HP, Director, Accessibility Program

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
Jasionowski, Tony
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 8:53 AM
To: TEITAC Committee; TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee
Subject: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions

Folks,
Panasonic originally proposed and discussed adding "in at least one
location", for similar reasons that Peter referenced, since we do not
feel that we need to have such redundant caption controls in all
locations.
In the case of TV we prefer the option and flexibility of adding such
caption control preferable on the remote control rather than the TV
itself especially when we consider the trend towards thinner and slimmer
flat panel TVs with smaller bezels. This is even more of an issue with
even smaller devices such as mobile telephones.
In conclusion, we prefer to maintain "in at least one location".
Thanks.
Tony Jasionowski
Panasonic
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Peter
Korn
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:02 PM
To: TEITAC Committee
Cc: 'TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee'
Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions

Hi Gregg,

I think we are getting closer, but aren't quite there yet. You have
substituted a single control for two controls - and assume that so long
as CC is as prominent as at least one of those two, the provision would
be satisfied. I'm trying to make a more general argument, using devices

like the iPhone or Nokia Internet Tablet as an example. The more
general argument is that it may make sense to have some controls (e.g.
volume) have tremendous prominence because they are used for all
functions of a multi-function device (e.g. volume of video playback, and

of a cell phone conversation, and of music, and ...), while captioning
may only make sense for a narrow feature of the device (one can even
imagine a multi-function programmable device not even shipping with
video playback functionality - only 3rd party software provides it).

Therefore I am arguing for Andi's language, which states that: "...the
controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one location, to
the controls needed to control volume, or perform program selection...".
Key is the "in at least one location".

Another example are media PCs that include a couple of extra buttons on
them (think about a laptop that can play CDs [but NOT DVDs] without
otherwise booting, and have volume controls and track selection buttons
on them, and little else in hardware; but also have a software GUI for
greater control). If we went with language that didn't include "in at
least one location", then such a laptop would have to have a CC button
exposed on the case, even though such a button might only be used for
downloaded videos, simply because the volume control on the case is used

to control volume generally of the system.


Regards,

Peter Korn
Accessibility Architect,
Sun Microsystems, Inc.

> Not sure I follow your discussion but let me try. Are you trying to
talk
> about products like a phone (or a laptop) --where the volume is on the
side
> of the product and play controls on screen? Hmmm. Yes I can see
that
> putting the caption button on the side of the phone might be a hard
sell
> (though I can see a host of mainstream benefits).
>
> So how about we change it slightly to say "at the same level of
prominence
> as the channel changing or play controls. Again noting that it would
just
> be a simple and not - large CC button - this could be done on hardware
and
> software players of media that may be captioned.
>
> Gregg
> -- ------------------------------
> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Peter
>> Korn
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 1:12 PM
>> To: TEITAC Committee
>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>>
>> Hi Gregg,
>>
>> A generalized hand held device with a large screen and few to no
>> buttons that plays videos (the Nokia N770, N800, and new N810 are
>> also examples of this; not just the iPhone) is, I agree, an excellent

>> example for discussion.
>>
>> If we used Andi's proposed language, then your suggested solution
>> (below) would meet the requirement: in one of the places where
>> someone can control the volume, they would also be able to turn
>> on/off closed captions with an interface of similar prominence.
>>
>> But what if you have to go through a general dialog box first when
>> you touch the device, and choose "media settings" to get to a second
>> dialog, where you can adjust the volume (and turn on/off cc)? Then
>> we have both a CC and volume setting that clearly aren't as prominent

>> as the physical volume button on the side of the device.
>>
>> This, to me, is an argument in favor of Andi's language. I think it
>> is especially important for small multi-function devices as we are
>> seeing with the iPhone and Nokia Internet Tablet series and so forth;

>> video playback is only one of many things they do, and while a
>> general volume control makes sense for everything these device do
>> (e.g. how loud is the phone conversation amplified?), captioning is
>> only for one thing that the device does.
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Peter Korn
>> Accessibility Architect,
>> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>>
>>
>>> The iPhone is a good example.
>>>
>>> The full screen is used for playback. But touching the
>>>
>> screen anywhere
>>
>>> calls up the play controls including the ability to
>>>
>> bookmark it play
>>
>>> stop/pause or jump to end and also to email it . These are the same
>>> controls that pop up when viewing a TV show (except for
>>>
>> bookmark and email).
>>
>>> But there is no way find any way to call up captions. Yet
>>>
>> it would be
>>
>>> easy to add a caption button to the display (which disappears a few
>>> seconds later). In fact I would bet that many people would
>>>
>> use these
>>
>>> to view the TV shows without audio at times - or when noisy. (and
>>> you-tube sometimes as well if they were captioned.)
>>>
>>>
>>> Gregg
>>> -- ------------------------------
>>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>>>>
>> Behalf Of Peter
>>
>>>> Korn
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:13 AM
>>>> To: TEITAC Committee
>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>>>>
>>>> Hi Gregg, gang,
>>>>
>>>> Another question: what about situations when playback of videos is
>>>> relatively incidental to the function of the device, *and*
>>>>
>> the device
>>
>>>> has only a very few keys. Many cell phones and PDAs are
>>>>
>> now playing
>>
>>>> videos (e.g. the iPhone with YouTube). I believe an argument was
>>>> made that as remote controls have so many buttons,
>>>>
>> requiring a "CC"
>>
>>>> button near the volume or mute button should not be a significant
>>>> demand.
>>>> Whether or not that is true, it certainly seems like adding a "CC"
>>>> button to a cell phone that is capable of playing videos
>>>>
>> is in fact a
>>
>>>> rather large change - especially for a phone that has
>>>>
>> perhaps only a
>>
>>>> very few buttons to begin with (though one of which is volume).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Peter Korn
>>>> Accessibility Architect,
>>>> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Does this cover desktop/notebook/handheld computers and/or
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> phones (or
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> other future devices) that "display analog or digital
>>>>>
>> television" ?
>>
>>>>> In particular, the language seems to cover "Media PC's" that do
>>>>> display analog and digital television, some which have very small
>>>>> remotes that may not support:
>>>>> "controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> location,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
>>>>> selection, where the ability to control these features is
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> otherwise
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> provided."
>>>>>
>>>>> Another question: Are we discussing physical controls ? or
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> does this
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> also include "on screen" controls ?
>>>>> or both ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
>>>>> Hoffman, Allen
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:39 AM
>>>>> To: TEITAC Committee
>>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for
>>>>> mechanismtoenable/disable captions
>>>>>
>>>>> Just a question:
>>>>>
>>>>> Would this include a PC that can play DVD(s)? Is it
>>>>>
>> dependent upon
>>
>>>>> having a mechanical or touch operated volume control?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Should a mute
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> button activate captioning or de-activate captioning? I
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> liked Andi's
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> language for this item myself. I believe the initial
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> constraint for
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> analog/digital television is those kinds of synchronized
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> media covered
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> as "broadcast" by FCC, but I could be wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> Allen Hoffman -- = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; v: 202-447-0303
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Of Gregg
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Vanderheiden
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:29 AM
>>>>> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
>>>>> Cc: 'TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
>>>>> toenable/disable captions
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>
>>>>> Per request from the chairs here is a summary of the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> points made in
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> my
>>>>> comments:
>>>>>
>>>>> * Current language uses "Analog or digital TV". But things are
>>>>> changing
>>>>> so fast that it is not clear what we will be using in 5 or
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> 10 years and
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> whether it will be called television. Or whether much of
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> it won't be
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> called television.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why not require all players of material that may contain
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> captions to
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> have a captions on/off switch near the volume control.
>>>>>
>> It would be
>>
>>>>> easy, small and could be ubiquitous as well as very handy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> for all users.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Gregg
>>>>> -- ------------------------------ Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Behalf Of Andi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Snow-Weaver
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:00 PM
>>>>> To: 'TEITAC Committee'
>>>>> Subject: [teitac-committee] Suggested language for mechanism
>>>>> toenable/disable captions
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Here is the draft text I proposed during today's TEITAC meeting:
>>>>>
>>>>> In products that receive or display analog or digital
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> television, the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> controls must be comparable in prominence, in at least one
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> location,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> to the controls needed to control volume, or perform program
>>>>> selection, where the ability to control these features is
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> otherwise
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> provided.
>>>>>
>>>>> Andi
>>>>>

From: Greg Fields
Date: Thu, Oct 25 2007 8:35 AM
Subject: Re: Enable/disable Captions

Thank you Karen,

Your proposal seems to make sense in principle. I would defer to TV
vendors for their feedback.

Regarding controls in devices like those in 4A-2, I would concur with
your comment -

"... that we not impose inappropriate obligations on products that, in
the past, were not traditionally used for television programming, such
as cell phones ..."

- and propose that we not create additional language to handle CC/DV
controls for 4A-2. This requirement for enable/disable CC/DV
functionality is already noted in 6C.

-Greg


-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Karen Peltz
Strauss
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 8:47 AM
To: TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee
Subject: Re: [teitac-video] [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions

Given the turn in our discussion, I am going to propose some very simple

language for the captioning and video description controls that apply to

products under 4A.1:

"For products that are covered under subpart 4-A.1, the user controls
needed
to access closed captioning and video description must be comparable in
prominence to the controls needed to control volume and program
selection."
(followed by the examples we have agreed on)

Rationale: Much of the debate that we had over the past few weeks was
an
attempt to ensure that we not impose inappropriate obligations on
products
that, in the past, were not traditionally used for television
programming,
such as cell phones, PDAs, and smaller or computer-type electronic
devices.
4-A.1 ONLY applies to television receivers/tuners that are covered under
the
FCC's captioning rules. These devices routinely have remote controls,
and
always have a hardware place to control volume and program selection -
on
the remote control and sometimes on the television apparatus. Thus, we
no
longer need the phrase at the end that had begun with "where available."
I
have also removed the phrase "in at least one location" because for
these
types of devices, where there is typically a physical (hard) control,
there
needs to be a similarly hard control for these accessibility features.
As I
mentioned yesterday, I am concerned, like Gregg, that if there is a
second
place to control the volume and program selection on a menu, the "at
least
one location" language would allow placement of the captioning/vd
controls
to be buried there, and we are back where we started from. If, as Larry

suggested yesterday, television type devices do not typically have this
alternative - then the outcome is still the same.

I am hoping this language for products under 4-A.1is acceptable to the
group. I remain open to different language to cover the other types of
devices. However, I do not recall that we agreed on not requiring
prominence for these controls on those types of devices. Remember, the
whole point of this is not just to have controls, but to place them in a

location where users can find them.

Karen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sean Hayes" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 5:51 AM
Subject: Re: [teitac-video] [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions


> Here is my recollection of what we determined:
>
> We would use the definition in 4A.1 as the type of products for which
> equal prominence was required.
>
> Products as defined in 4A.2 would also need some means of turning them

> on/off, however as we have less understanding of emerging non TV form
> factors, and with the assumption that obtaining video on such devices
> already requires a relative degree of user sophistication, we would
not
> require equal prominence in those cases, so this is already covered by
6C.
>
> We also decided we would restrict the prominence requirement to just
> captions and video description controls.
>
> We noted we do not currently have equal wording to 4A for video
> descriptions. Larry proposed rewording 4B to mirror 4A, however I'm
not
> sure exactly what that would look like.
>
> We agreed to move the proposed language out of 4A into its own
provision
> and simply reference 4A.1 for its scope, however on reading it again
it
> seems rather than make a new provision it would be better to add it to
6C.
>
> Thus 6C would now read:
>
> 6C - Open or Closed Captions/Descriptions
> At the time of playback, captions and/or video descriptions must be
either
> (a) capable of being turned on and off ("closed"), or (b) visible or
> audible to all users ("open").
>
> For products as defined in 4A.1 the controls to turn on or off
captions
> and/or video descriptions must be comparable in prominence, in at
least
> one location, to controls provided to control volume, or perform
program
> selection, where the ability to control these features is otherwise
> provided.
>
> -- personally I'm not sure the "where the ability..." part is strictly

> necessary.
>
>
> If this is consistent with everyone else's notes, I suggest we forward
to
> the EWG for inclusion this Friday.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Sean Hayes
> Incubation Lab
> Accessibility Business Unit
> Microsoft
>
> Office: +44 118 909 5867,
> Mobile: +44 7875 091385
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Larry
Goldberg
> Sent: 25 October 2007 03:27
> To: TEITAC AV list
> Subject: Re: [teitac-video] [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>
> Not sure of the deadlines, but I am on the road all day tomorrow and
tied
> up
> much of Friday.
>
> If anyone else has good notes of our call and can post the latest,
that
> would be great.
>
> ... Larry ...
>
>

From: Karen Peltz Strauss
Date: Thu, Oct 25 2007 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: Enable/disable Captions

Here are some responses to the comments on this issue today:

Products covered by 4-A.1:

I remain concerned about the "at least" language in 4-A.1. My concern is
not so much that the controls will be on the remote versus the TV apparatus.
It is more that I don't want this to be interpreted to mean that an
on-screen option could suffice if there are hard volume/channel controls on
the remote control or the apparatus. How about:

"For products that are covered under subpart 4-A.1, the user controls needed
to access closed captioning and video description must be in at least one
location that is comparable in prominence to the controls needed to control
volume and program selection. At a minimum, this requres placement of such
controls on either the product's physical apparatus or its remote control."

(followed by the examples we have agreed on)

Products covered by 4-A.2:

Actually 6C does not address the usability of the captioning controls. All
it says is

"At the time of playback, captions and/or video descriptions must be either
(a) capable of being turned on and off ("closed"), or (b) visible or audible
to all users ("open")."

One possible resolution for these products is that unlike the proposed
language for 4-A.1, which ties the prominence to volume control/program
selection, we can state that:

"For products that are covered under 4-A.2, the user controls needed to
access closed captioning and video description must be comparable in
prominence to the play controls or channel selector."

This should alleviate concerns about placing caption controls in the same
place as the volume control for devices such as cell phones, where the
primary purpose of the device is for communications, not video programming.
Typically, the above language would require users to enter the device's menu
to access the captions, but so long as the user can go to the same level
that is used for playing and selecting channels, that would be ok.

Karen



----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Fields" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 10:32 AM
Subject: Re: [teitac-video] [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions


> Thank you Karen,
>
> Your proposal seems to make sense in principle. I would defer to TV
> vendors for their feedback.
>
> Regarding controls in devices like those in 4A-2, I would concur with
> your comment -
>
> "... that we not impose inappropriate obligations on products that, in
> the past, were not traditionally used for television programming, such
> as cell phones ..."
>
> - and propose that we not create additional language to handle CC/DV
> controls for 4A-2. This requirement for enable/disable CC/DV
> functionality is already noted in 6C.
>
> -Greg
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Karen Peltz
> Strauss
> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 8:47 AM
> To: TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee
> Subject: Re: [teitac-video] [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>
> Given the turn in our discussion, I am going to propose some very simple
>
> language for the captioning and video description controls that apply to
>
> products under 4A.1:
>
> "For products that are covered under subpart 4-A.1, the user controls
> needed
> to access closed captioning and video description must be comparable in
> prominence to the controls needed to control volume and program
> selection."
> (followed by the examples we have agreed on)
>
> Rationale: Much of the debate that we had over the past few weeks was
> an
> attempt to ensure that we not impose inappropriate obligations on
> products
> that, in the past, were not traditionally used for television
> programming,
> such as cell phones, PDAs, and smaller or computer-type electronic
> devices.
> 4-A.1 ONLY applies to television receivers/tuners that are covered under
> the
> FCC's captioning rules. These devices routinely have remote controls,
> and
> always have a hardware place to control volume and program selection -
> on
> the remote control and sometimes on the television apparatus. Thus, we
> no
> longer need the phrase at the end that had begun with "where available."
> I
> have also removed the phrase "in at least one location" because for
> these
> types of devices, where there is typically a physical (hard) control,
> there
> needs to be a similarly hard control for these accessibility features.
> As I
> mentioned yesterday, I am concerned, like Gregg, that if there is a
> second
> place to control the volume and program selection on a menu, the "at
> least
> one location" language would allow placement of the captioning/vd
> controls
> to be buried there, and we are back where we started from. If, as Larry
>
> suggested yesterday, television type devices do not typically have this
> alternative - then the outcome is still the same.
>
> I am hoping this language for products under 4-A.1is acceptable to the
> group. I remain open to different language to cover the other types of
> devices. However, I do not recall that we agreed on not requiring
> prominence for these controls on those types of devices. Remember, the
> whole point of this is not just to have controls, but to place them in a
>
> location where users can find them.
>
> Karen
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sean Hayes" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: "TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 5:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [teitac-video] [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>
>
>> Here is my recollection of what we determined:
>>
>> We would use the definition in 4A.1 as the type of products for which
>> equal prominence was required.
>>
>> Products as defined in 4A.2 would also need some means of turning them
>
>> on/off, however as we have less understanding of emerging non TV form
>> factors, and with the assumption that obtaining video on such devices
>> already requires a relative degree of user sophistication, we would
> not
>> require equal prominence in those cases, so this is already covered by
> 6C.
>>
>> We also decided we would restrict the prominence requirement to just
>> captions and video description controls.
>>
>> We noted we do not currently have equal wording to 4A for video
>> descriptions. Larry proposed rewording 4B to mirror 4A, however I'm
> not
>> sure exactly what that would look like.
>>
>> We agreed to move the proposed language out of 4A into its own
> provision
>> and simply reference 4A.1 for its scope, however on reading it again
> it
>> seems rather than make a new provision it would be better to add it to
> 6C.
>>
>> Thus 6C would now read:
>>
>> 6C - Open or Closed Captions/Descriptions
>> At the time of playback, captions and/or video descriptions must be
> either
>> (a) capable of being turned on and off ("closed"), or (b) visible or
>> audible to all users ("open").
>>
>> For products as defined in 4A.1 the controls to turn on or off
> captions
>> and/or video descriptions must be comparable in prominence, in at
> least
>> one location, to controls provided to control volume, or perform
> program
>> selection, where the ability to control these features is otherwise
>> provided.
>>
>> -- personally I'm not sure the "where the ability..." part is strictly
>
>> necessary.
>>
>>
>> If this is consistent with everyone else's notes, I suggest we forward
> to
>> the EWG for inclusion this Friday.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Sean Hayes
>> Incubation Lab
>> Accessibility Business Unit
>> Microsoft
>>
>> Office: +44 118 909 5867,
>> Mobile: +44 7875 091385
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Larry
> Goldberg
>> Sent: 25 October 2007 03:27
>> To: TEITAC AV list
>> Subject: Re: [teitac-video] [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>>
>> Not sure of the deadlines, but I am on the road all day tomorrow and
> tied
>> up
>> much of Friday.
>>
>> If anyone else has good notes of our call and can post the latest,
> that
>> would be great.
>>
>> ... Larry ...
>>
>>

From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Thu, Oct 25 2007 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: Enable/disable Captions

> At a minimum, this requres
> placement of such controls on either the product's physical
> apparatus or its remote control."

Does this mean that you'd rather see a cc button on a tv's physical box
than have close caption display options at the top level of the
on-screen menu? I'd assume that the on-screen option would be preferable
to needing to get up to make this change, wouldn't it?

AWK

From: Karen Peltz Strauss
Date: Thu, Oct 25 2007 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: Enable/disable Captions

Andrew

Not necessarily. Our goal is to make it easy to find the captions, not to
create couch potatoes. :)

Karen



----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Kirkpatrick" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 3:07 PM
Subject: Re: [teitac-video] [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions


>> At a minimum, this requres
>> placement of such controls on either the product's physical
>> apparatus or its remote control."
>
> Does this mean that you'd rather see a cc button on a tv's physical box
> than have close caption display options at the top level of the
> on-screen menu? I'd assume that the on-screen option would be preferable
> to needing to get up to make this change, wouldn't it?
>
> AWK
>

From: Sean Hayes
Date: Thu, Oct 25 2007 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: Enable/disable Captions

So it appears we are not converging on the exact wording due for tomorrow.

maybe the best we can do at this point is to include both Karen's latest version and my summary of Wednesday as alternatives, to replace what is in the Oct26 draft, otherwise I fear we will miss the boat for the editors this time round.

Sean Hayes
Incubation Lab
Accessibility Business Unit
Microsoft

Office: +44 118 909 5867,
Mobile: +44 7875 091385


-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Karen Peltz Strauss
Sent: 25 October 2007 19:49
To: TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee
Subject: Re: [teitac-video] [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions

Here are some responses to the comments on this issue today:

Products covered by 4-A.1:

I remain concerned about the "at least" language in 4-A.1. My concern is
not so much that the controls will be on the remote versus the TV apparatus.
It is more that I don't want this to be interpreted to mean that an
on-screen option could suffice if there are hard volume/channel controls on
the remote control or the apparatus. How about:

"For products that are covered under subpart 4-A.1, the user controls needed
to access closed captioning and video description must be in at least one
location that is comparable in prominence to the controls needed to control
volume and program selection. At a minimum, this requres placement of such
controls on either the product's physical apparatus or its remote control."

(followed by the examples we have agreed on)

Products covered by 4-A.2:

Actually 6C does not address the usability of the captioning controls. All
it says is

"At the time of playback, captions and/or video descriptions must be either
(a) capable of being turned on and off ("closed"), or (b) visible or audible
to all users ("open")."

One possible resolution for these products is that unlike the proposed
language for 4-A.1, which ties the prominence to volume control/program
selection, we can state that:

"For products that are covered under 4-A.2, the user controls needed to
access closed captioning and video description must be comparable in
prominence to the play controls or channel selector."

This should alleviate concerns about placing caption controls in the same
place as the volume control for devices such as cell phones, where the
primary purpose of the device is for communications, not video programming.
Typically, the above language would require users to enter the device's menu
to access the captions, but so long as the user can go to the same level
that is used for playing and selecting channels, that would be ok.

Karen



----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Fields" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 10:32 AM
Subject: Re: [teitac-video] [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions


> Thank you Karen,
>
> Your proposal seems to make sense in principle. I would defer to TV
> vendors for their feedback.
>
> Regarding controls in devices like those in 4A-2, I would concur with
> your comment -
>
> "... that we not impose inappropriate obligations on products that, in
> the past, were not traditionally used for television programming, such
> as cell phones ..."
>
> - and propose that we not create additional language to handle CC/DV
> controls for 4A-2. This requirement for enable/disable CC/DV
> functionality is already noted in 6C.
>
> -Greg
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Karen Peltz
> Strauss
> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 8:47 AM
> To: TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee
> Subject: Re: [teitac-video] [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>
> Given the turn in our discussion, I am going to propose some very simple
>
> language for the captioning and video description controls that apply to
>
> products under 4A.1:
>
> "For products that are covered under subpart 4-A.1, the user controls
> needed
> to access closed captioning and video description must be comparable in
> prominence to the controls needed to control volume and program
> selection."
> (followed by the examples we have agreed on)
>
> Rationale: Much of the debate that we had over the past few weeks was
> an
> attempt to ensure that we not impose inappropriate obligations on
> products
> that, in the past, were not traditionally used for television
> programming,
> such as cell phones, PDAs, and smaller or computer-type electronic
> devices.
> 4-A.1 ONLY applies to television receivers/tuners that are covered under
> the
> FCC's captioning rules. These devices routinely have remote controls,
> and
> always have a hardware place to control volume and program selection -
> on
> the remote control and sometimes on the television apparatus. Thus, we
> no
> longer need the phrase at the end that had begun with "where available."
> I
> have also removed the phrase "in at least one location" because for
> these
> types of devices, where there is typically a physical (hard) control,
> there
> needs to be a similarly hard control for these accessibility features.
> As I
> mentioned yesterday, I am concerned, like Gregg, that if there is a
> second
> place to control the volume and program selection on a menu, the "at
> least
> one location" language would allow placement of the captioning/vd
> controls
> to be buried there, and we are back where we started from. If, as Larry
>
> suggested yesterday, television type devices do not typically have this
> alternative - then the outcome is still the same.
>
> I am hoping this language for products under 4-A.1is acceptable to the
> group. I remain open to different language to cover the other types of
> devices. However, I do not recall that we agreed on not requiring
> prominence for these controls on those types of devices. Remember, the
> whole point of this is not just to have controls, but to place them in a
>
> location where users can find them.
>
> Karen
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sean Hayes" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: "TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 5:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [teitac-video] [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>
>
>> Here is my recollection of what we determined:
>>
>> We would use the definition in 4A.1 as the type of products for which
>> equal prominence was required.
>>
>> Products as defined in 4A.2 would also need some means of turning them
>
>> on/off, however as we have less understanding of emerging non TV form
>> factors, and with the assumption that obtaining video on such devices
>> already requires a relative degree of user sophistication, we would
> not
>> require equal prominence in those cases, so this is already covered by
> 6C.
>>
>> We also decided we would restrict the prominence requirement to just
>> captions and video description controls.
>>
>> We noted we do not currently have equal wording to 4A for video
>> descriptions. Larry proposed rewording 4B to mirror 4A, however I'm
> not
>> sure exactly what that would look like.
>>
>> We agreed to move the proposed language out of 4A into its own
> provision
>> and simply reference 4A.1 for its scope, however on reading it again
> it
>> seems rather than make a new provision it would be better to add it to
> 6C.
>>
>> Thus 6C would now read:
>>
>> 6C - Open or Closed Captions/Descriptions
>> At the time of playback, captions and/or video descriptions must be
> either
>> (a) capable of being turned on and off ("closed"), or (b) visible or
>> audible to all users ("open").
>>
>> For products as defined in 4A.1 the controls to turn on or off
> captions
>> and/or video descriptions must be comparable in prominence, in at
> least
>> one location, to controls provided to control volume, or perform
> program
>> selection, where the ability to control these features is otherwise
>> provided.
>>
>> -- personally I'm not sure the "where the ability..." part is strictly
>
>> necessary.
>>
>>
>> If this is consistent with everyone else's notes, I suggest we forward
> to
>> the EWG for inclusion this Friday.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Sean Hayes
>> Incubation Lab
>> Accessibility Business Unit
>> Microsoft
>>
>> Office: +44 118 909 5867,
>> Mobile: +44 7875 091385
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Larry
> Goldberg
>> Sent: 25 October 2007 03:27
>> To: TEITAC AV list
>> Subject: Re: [teitac-video] [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>>
>> Not sure of the deadlines, but I am on the road all day tomorrow and
> tied
>> up
>> much of Friday.
>>
>> If anyone else has good notes of our call and can post the latest,
> that
>> would be great.
>>
>> ... Larry ...
>>
>>

From: Larry Goldberg
Date: Thu, Oct 25 2007 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: Enable/disable Captions

I think we should go ahead and do that-otherwise we can play with this
language forever.

- Larry

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 25, 2007, at 3:16 PM, Sean Hayes < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> So it appears we are not converging on the exact wording due for
> tomorrow.
>
> maybe the best we can do at this point is to include both Karen's
> latest version and my summary of Wednesday as alternatives, to
> replace what is in the Oct26 draft, otherwise I fear we will miss
> the boat for the editors this time round.
>
> Sean Hayes
> Incubation Lab
> Accessibility Business Unit
> Microsoft
>
> Office: +44 118 909 5867,
> Mobile: +44 7875 091385
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> ] On Behalf Of Karen Peltz Strauss
> Sent: 25 October 2007 19:49
> To: TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee
> Subject: Re: [teitac-video] [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>
> Here are some responses to the comments on this issue today:
>
> Products covered by 4-A.1:
>
> I remain concerned about the "at least" language in 4-A.1. My
> concern is
> not so much that the controls will be on the remote versus the TV
> apparatus.
> It is more that I don't want this to be interpreted to mean that an
> on-screen option could suffice if there are hard volume/channel
> controls on
> the remote control or the apparatus. How about:
>
> "For products that are covered under subpart 4-A.1, the user
> controls needed
> to access closed captioning and video description must be in at
> least one
> location that is comparable in prominence to the controls needed to
> control
> volume and program selection. At a minimum, this requres placement
> of such
> controls on either the product's physical apparatus or its remote
> control."
>
> (followed by the examples we have agreed on)
>
> Products covered by 4-A.2:
>
> Actually 6C does not address the usability of the captioning
> controls. All

From: Jasionowski, Tony
Date: Thu, Oct 25 2007 4:10 PM
Subject: Re: Enable/disable Captions

Larry, Sean, Karen, and all,
I also agree we do not have consensus within the AV sub committee
regarding caption controls, therefore, we should post both Sean's
summary of the Wednesday AV sub committee meeting along with Karen's
subsequent proposed language in the Oct. 26 draft.
Thanks.
Tony Jasionowski
Panasonic
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Larry
Goldberg
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 5:48 PM
To: TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee
Cc: TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee
Subject: Re: [teitac-video] [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions

I think we should go ahead and do that-otherwise we can play with this
language forever.

- Larry

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 25, 2007, at 3:16 PM, Sean Hayes < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> So it appears we are not converging on the exact wording due for
> tomorrow.
>
> maybe the best we can do at this point is to include both Karen's
> latest version and my summary of Wednesday as alternatives, to
> replace what is in the Oct26 draft, otherwise I fear we will miss
> the boat for the editors this time round.
>
> Sean Hayes
> Incubation Lab
> Accessibility Business Unit
> Microsoft
>
> Office: +44 118 909 5867,
> Mobile: +44 7875 091385
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> ] On Behalf Of Karen Peltz Strauss
> Sent: 25 October 2007 19:49
> To: TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee
> Subject: Re: [teitac-video] [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>
> Here are some responses to the comments on this issue today:
>
> Products covered by 4-A.1:
>
> I remain concerned about the "at least" language in 4-A.1. My
> concern is
> not so much that the controls will be on the remote versus the TV
> apparatus.
> It is more that I don't want this to be interpreted to mean that an
> on-screen option could suffice if there are hard volume/channel
> controls on
> the remote control or the apparatus. How about:
>
> "For products that are covered under subpart 4-A.1, the user
> controls needed
> to access closed captioning and video description must be in at
> least one
> location that is comparable in prominence to the controls needed to
> control
> volume and program selection. At a minimum, this requres placement
> of such
> controls on either the product's physical apparatus or its remote
> control."
>
> (followed by the examples we have agreed on)
>
> Products covered by 4-A.2:
>
> Actually 6C does not address the usability of the captioning
> controls. All

From: Gregg Vanderheiden
Date: Sat, Oct 27 2007 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: Enable/disable Captions

The only question I have is why we don't require (on software players) a CC
button near the play controls. On most software players I know of - it is
hard to find the cc control -- AND most people are completely unaware that
it exists to go look for it.



Microsoft's research showed that 'lack of awareness' was one of they key
barriers to use.

Would having the CC button next to play controls on software players be any
kind of burden?


Gregg
-- ------------------------------
Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Sean Hayes
> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 4:52 AM
> To: TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee
> Subject: Re: [teitac-video] [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>
> Here is my recollection of what we determined:
>
> We would use the definition in 4A.1 as the type of products
> for which equal prominence was required.
>
> Products as defined in 4A.2 would also need some means of
> turning them on/off, however as we have less understanding of
> emerging non TV form factors, and with the assumption that
> obtaining video on such devices already requires a relative
> degree of user sophistication, we would not require equal
> prominence in those cases, so this is already covered by 6C.
>
> We also decided we would restrict the prominence requirement
> to just captions and video description controls.
>
> We noted we do not currently have equal wording to 4A for
> video descriptions. Larry proposed rewording 4B to mirror 4A,
> however I'm not sure exactly what that would look like.
>
> We agreed to move the proposed language out of 4A into its
> own provision and simply reference 4A.1 for its scope,
> however on reading it again it seems rather than make a new
> provision it would be better to add it to 6C.
>
> Thus 6C would now read:
>
> 6C - Open or Closed Captions/Descriptions At the time of
> playback, captions and/or video descriptions must be either
> (a) capable of being turned on and off ("closed"), or (b)
> visible or audible to all users ("open").
>
> For products as defined in 4A.1 the controls to turn on or
> off captions and/or video descriptions must be comparable in
> prominence, in at least one location, to controls provided to
> control volume, or perform program selection, where the
> ability to control these features is otherwise provided.
>
> -- personally I'm not sure the "where the ability..." part is
> strictly necessary.
>
>
> If this is consistent with everyone else's notes, I suggest
> we forward to the EWG for inclusion this Friday.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Sean Hayes
> Incubation Lab
> Accessibility Business Unit
> Microsoft
>
> Office: +44 118 909 5867,
> Mobile: +44 7875 091385
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
> Larry Goldberg
> Sent: 25 October 2007 03:27
> To: TEITAC AV list
> Subject: Re: [teitac-video] [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>
> Not sure of the deadlines, but I am on the road all day
> tomorrow and tied up much of Friday.
>
> If anyone else has good notes of our call and can post the
> latest, that would be great.
>
> ... Larry ...
>
>

From: Dave Singer
Date: Mon, Oct 29 2007 3:25 AM
Subject: Re: Enable/disable Captions

At 14:07 -0500 27/10/07, Gregg Vanderheiden wrote:
>The only question I have is why we don't require (on software players) a CC
>button near the play controls. On most software players I know of - it is
>hard to find the cc control -- AND most people are completely unaware that
>it exists to go look for it.
>
>
>
>Microsoft's research showed that 'lack of awareness' was one of they key
>barriers to use.
>
>Would having the CC button next to play controls on software players be any
>kind of burden?

Yes. We tend to prefer minimal real-time controls and uncluttered displays.

In at least some places (e.g. iPod), desiring closed captions is a
preference issue, not a content-by-content issue.

>
>
>Gregg
> -- ------------------------------
>Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Sean Hayes
>> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 4:52 AM
>> To: TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee
>> Subject: Re: [teitac-video] [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>>
>> Here is my recollection of what we determined:
>>
>> We would use the definition in 4A.1 as the type of products
>> for which equal prominence was required.
>>
>> Products as defined in 4A.2 would also need some means of
>> turning them on/off, however as we have less understanding of
>> emerging non TV form factors, and with the assumption that
>> obtaining video on such devices already requires a relative
>> degree of user sophistication, we would not require equal
>> prominence in those cases, so this is already covered by 6C.
>>
>> We also decided we would restrict the prominence requirement
>> to just captions and video description controls.
>>
>> We noted we do not currently have equal wording to 4A for
>> video descriptions. Larry proposed rewording 4B to mirror 4A,
>> however I'm not sure exactly what that would look like.
>>
>> We agreed to move the proposed language out of 4A into its
>> own provision and simply reference 4A.1 for its scope,
>> however on reading it again it seems rather than make a new
>> provision it would be better to add it to 6C.
>>
>> Thus 6C would now read:
>>
>> 6C - Open or Closed Captions/Descriptions At the time of
>> playback, captions and/or video descriptions must be either
>> (a) capable of being turned on and off ("closed"), or (b)
>> visible or audible to all users ("open").
>>
>> For products as defined in 4A.1 the controls to turn on or
>> off captions and/or video descriptions must be comparable in
>> prominence, in at least one location, to controls provided to
>> control volume, or perform program selection, where the
>> ability to control these features is otherwise provided.
>>
>> -- personally I'm not sure the "where the ability..." part is
>> strictly necessary.
>>
>>
>> If this is consistent with everyone else's notes, I suggest
>> we forward to the EWG for inclusion this Friday.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Sean Hayes
>> Incubation Lab
>> Accessibility Business Unit
>> Microsoft
>>
>> Office: +44 118 909 5867,
>> Mobile: +44 7875 091385
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
>> Larry Goldberg
>> Sent: 25 October 2007 03:27
>> To: TEITAC AV list
>> Subject: Re: [teitac-video] [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions
>>
>> Not sure of the deadlines, but I am on the road all day
>> tomorrow and tied up much of Friday.
>>
>> If anyone else has good notes of our call and can post the
>> latest, that would be great.
>>
>> ... Larry ...
>>
>>

From: Hoffman, Allen
Date: Mon, Oct 29 2007 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: Enable/disable Captions

Seems like a "smart" player would put the cc control next to volume or
play if content has cc in it, and not if it doesn't contain cc. Also
could be a user-preference option during device set up. Seems like we
are making this user-need a lot harder than it has to be. if the amount
of thought about usability we normally apply to things is applied to
things like this, problem would go away probably.






Allen Hoffman -- = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; v: 202-447-0303

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Dave Singer
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 5:22 AM
To: TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee
Subject: Re: [teitac-video] [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions

At 14:07 -0500 27/10/07, Gregg Vanderheiden wrote:
>The only question I have is why we don't require (on software players)
>a CC button near the play controls. On most software players I know of

>- it is hard to find the cc control -- AND most people are completely
>unaware that it exists to go look for it.
>
>
>
>Microsoft's research showed that 'lack of awareness' was one of they
>key barriers to use.
>
>Would having the CC button next to play controls on software players be

>any kind of burden?

Yes. We tend to prefer minimal real-time controls and uncluttered
displays.

In at least some places (e.g. iPod), desiring closed captions is a
preference issue, not a content-by-content issue.

>
>
>Gregg
> -- ------------------------------
>Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Sean
>> Hayes
>> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 4:52 AM
>> To: TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee
>> Subject: Re: [teitac-video] [teitac-committee] Enable/disable
>> Captions
>>
>> Here is my recollection of what we determined:
>>
>> We would use the definition in 4A.1 as the type of products for
>> which equal prominence was required.
>>
>> Products as defined in 4A.2 would also need some means of turning
>> them on/off, however as we have less understanding of emerging non
>> TV form factors, and with the assumption that obtaining video on
>> such devices already requires a relative degree of user
>> sophistication, we would not require equal prominence in those
>> cases, so this is already covered by 6C.
>>
>> We also decided we would restrict the prominence requirement to
>> just captions and video description controls.
>>
>> We noted we do not currently have equal wording to 4A for video
>> descriptions. Larry proposed rewording 4B to mirror 4A, however I'm
>> not sure exactly what that would look like.
>>
>> We agreed to move the proposed language out of 4A into its own
>> provision and simply reference 4A.1 for its scope, however on
>> reading it again it seems rather than make a new provision it would
>> be better to add it to 6C.
>>
>> Thus 6C would now read:
>>
>> 6C - Open or Closed Captions/Descriptions At the time of playback,
>> captions and/or video descriptions must be either
>> (a) capable of being turned on and off ("closed"), or (b) visible
>> or audible to all users ("open").
>>
>> For products as defined in 4A.1 the controls to turn on or off
>> captions and/or video descriptions must be comparable in prominence,

>> in at least one location, to controls provided to control volume, or

>> perform program selection, where the ability to control these
>> features is otherwise provided.
>>
>> -- personally I'm not sure the "where the ability..." part is
>> strictly necessary.
>>
>>
>> If this is consistent with everyone else's notes, I suggest we
>> forward to the EWG for inclusion this Friday.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Sean Hayes
>> Incubation Lab
>> Accessibility Business Unit
>> Microsoft
>>
>> Office: +44 118 909 5867,
>> Mobile: +44 7875 091385
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Larry
>> Goldberg
>> Sent: 25 October 2007 03:27
>> To: TEITAC AV list
>> Subject: Re: [teitac-video] [teitac-committee] Enable/disable
>> Captions
>>
>> Not sure of the deadlines, but I am on the road all day tomorrow
>> and tied up much of Friday.
>>
>> If anyone else has good notes of our call and can post the latest,
>> that would be great.
>>
>> ... Larry ...
>>
>>

From: Gregg Vanderheiden
Date: Mon, Oct 29 2007 10:05 AM
Subject: Re: Enable/disable Captions

Hmmm



Sean's suggested one item that covers 4A.1 and moving it to 6C (but that
is about content not controls)



Karen suggested a pair that covered both 4A1 and 4A2





This is just an attempt to create one the might cover 4A1 and 4A2 in a
single item - and preserve some of the coverage of Karen and limits of
Sean's.







I Started with Sean's Text



Removed volume control (per Karen's Mod)



Removed "at least one" but add a note to cover the concern about having to
do it on TV and Remote.

- since "at least one" raises concerns and it covered by the
language already - if you choose a prominent place for the CC control. (it
doesn't say "all places where there is...." just one that is as prominent.

- if you put it on the remote control that would be as prominent
and you would not need to put it elsewhere. But if the only place was in a
sub -menu next to a volume control (or channel) option, that would not be as
prominent if you had much higher ways of changing channels. (e.g. your "at
least one" can't be a non-prominent one)



Kept Sean's "where the ability to control these features is otherwise
provided" since the material may be open captioned and described. But
changed it to make this clear.



Removed the "for products defined in 4A.1

- since the volume control is removed and this is only required where
people can change channels (like TV) or where there are software play
controls (in which case adding a CC button not be a problem). This did not
require it for hardware play controls since that would be more difficult to
add both CC and DV buttons - though it is recommended.



Kept it under 4C since it is a player control and 6 is about content.









I will let the group decide if it is better but it is shorter and doesn't
require you to keep checking 4A for meaning (and avoids the ambiguous
items).






4C - Access to Caption and Video Description Controls


The controls to turn on or off captions and/or video descriptions must be
comparable in prominence, to program selection controls or software play
controls, where the ability to control these features is otherwise provided.



Note: Inclusion of Caption and Description controls on the remote control
is considered comparable in prominence to controls on the display itself.



Note: It is recommended (but not required) that caption and video
description controls be provided on hardware multimedia players that are not
FCC controlled as well.



















Gregg

-- ------------------------------

Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.





> -----Original Message-----

> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto:teitac-video-

> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Gregg Vanderheiden

> Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 2:08 PM

> To: 'TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee'

> Subject: Re: [teitac-video] [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions

>

> The only question I have is why we don't require (on software players) a

> CC

> button near the play controls. On most software players I know of - it is

> hard to find the cc control -- AND most people are completely unaware that

> it exists to go look for it.

>

>

>

> Microsoft's research showed that 'lack of awareness' was one of they key

> barriers to use.

>

> Would having the CC button next to play controls on software players be

> any

> kind of burden?

>

>

> Gregg

> -- ------------------------------

> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.

>

>

>

> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

> > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Sean Hayes

> > Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 4:52 AM

> > To: TEITAC Audio/Video Subcommittee

> > Subject: Re: [teitac-video] [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions

> >

> > Here is my recollection of what we determined:

> >

> > We would use the definition in 4A.1 as the type of products

> > for which equal prominence was required.

> >

> > Products as defined in 4A.2 would also need some means of

> > turning them on/off, however as we have less understanding of

> > emerging non TV form factors, and with the assumption that

> > obtaining video on such devices already requires a relative

> > degree of user sophistication, we would not require equal

> > prominence in those cases, so this is already covered by 6C.

> >

> > We also decided we would restrict the prominence requirement

> > to just captions and video description controls.

> >

> > We noted we do not currently have equal wording to 4A for

> > video descriptions. Larry proposed rewording 4B to mirror 4A,

> > however I'm not sure exactly what that would look like.

> >

> > We agreed to move the proposed language out of 4A into its

> > own provision and simply reference 4A.1 for its scope,

> > however on reading it again it seems rather than make a new

> > provision it would be better to add it to 6C.

> >

> > Thus 6C would now read:

> >

> > 6C - Open or Closed Captions/Descriptions At the time of

> > playback, captions and/or video descriptions must be either

> > (a) capable of being turned on and off ("closed"), or (b)

> > visible or audible to all users ("open").

> >

> > For products as defined in 4A.1 the controls to turn on or

> > off captions and/or video descriptions must be comparable in

> > prominence, in at least one location, to controls provided to

> > control volume, or perform program selection, where the

> > ability to control these features is otherwise provided.

> >

> > -- personally I'm not sure the "where the ability..." part is

> > strictly necessary.

> >

> >

> > If this is consistent with everyone else's notes, I suggest

> > we forward to the EWG for inclusion this Friday.

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

> > Sean Hayes

> > Incubation Lab

> > Accessibility Business Unit

> > Microsoft

> >

> > Office: +44 118 909 5867,

> > Mobile: +44 7875 091385

> >

> >

> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

> > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of

> > Larry Goldberg

> > Sent: 25 October 2007 03:27

> > To: TEITAC AV list

> > Subject: Re: [teitac-video] [teitac-committee] Enable/disable Captions

> >

> > Not sure of the deadlines, but I am on the road all day

> > tomorrow and tied up much of Friday.

> >

> > If anyone else has good notes of our call and can post the

> > latest, that would be great.

> >

> > ... Larry ...

> >

> >