Thread Subject: Re: teitac-websoftware Digest, Vol 4, Issue 19

Return to this mailing list's archives

From: Taylor Tom E
Date: Fri, Jan 05 2007 12:35 PM
Subject: Re: teitac-websoftware Digest, Vol 4, Issue 19

Looking from a requirements perspective, rather than specify a specific
API, reduce the API to a list of broad functions that should be
supported. With this approach you can have a list of requirements that
MUST be present, some that SHOULD be present and some that MIGHT be
useful if they were present. The functional list can be applied to EIT
to evaluate if it is 508 compliant and to AT vendors developing
accessible solutions. When we submit RFP for EIT work we would have
clear consistent set of measurable requirements for the vendor, the
vendor would know that they might need to test with some AT technology
and the Agency can include "MIGHT BE Useful" requirements like, it
should work with "JAWS".

Tom Taylor
Internal Revenue Service

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 11:46 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: teitac-websoftware Digest, Vol 4, Issue 19


Send teitac-websoftware mailing list submissions to
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://list.teitac.org/mailman/listinfo/teitac-websoftware
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

You can reach the person managing the list at
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than
"Re: Contents of teitac-websoftware digest..."


Today's Topics:

1. Re: [teitac-websoftware] Startingdiscussionson
theAccessibility APIproposal (Barrett, Don)
2. Re: [teitac-websoftware] Startingdiscussionson
theAccessibility APIproposal (Jessica M. Brodey)
3. Re: [teitac-websoftware] Startingdiscussionson
theAccessibility APIproposal (Debbie Cook)
4. Re: [teitac-websoftware] Startingdiscussionson
theAccessibility APIproposal (Brett, Thomas F)
5. Re: [teitac-websoftware] Startingdiscussionson
theAccessibility APIproposal (Lazzaro, Joe (ITD))


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 12:33:29 -0500
From: "Barrett, Don" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [teitac-websoftware] Startingdiscussionson
theAccessibility APIproposal
To: "TEITAC Web/Software Subcommittee"
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Message-ID:
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

The other piece of this is that A T is always playing catch up with new
I T technologies as they develop. Support for web-based tables and
JavaScript event handlers are two good examples. Once 508 specified
table markup for headers and cell associations for multi-level tables,
and functional text for scripts, A T vendors jumped on these issues, and
screen readers got better and better over time in handling these
elements. The more specific an API can be for mainstream I T vendors,
the more the marketplace will be established so A T can come in and meet
the specified market needs.

Rather than ATIA being afraid of an API, I should think they would
welcome it, as long as it is one their members can code to.

Don


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 12:37:58 -0500
From: "Jessica M. Brodey" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [teitac-websoftware] Startingdiscussionson
theAccessibility APIproposal
To: "'TEITAC Web/Software Subcommittee'"
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Message-ID: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Debbie Cook said: "One of the fundamental problems we currently have is
that because AT has no requirement to comply with any standards in order
to work with IT, the It may complay nd not work with any AT. So, just
as IT companies go beyond the minimum to compete so should AT. And
frankly, while it's reasonable to debate the merits of any components of
a standard API, I think it's highly desireable as a baseline for both AT
and IT in terms of interoperability. What now happens is that a given IT
product is compatible with one AT and not another. It is all too common
that the bottom line for our IT procuremens is that they must work with
X or Y AT. That's not good for the consumer or for the smaller AT
vendor."

This is certainly true. The problem is, that for so many years, AT
companies have been forced to be inventive and create "work-arounds" in
order to provide access because there has not been a standard
accessibility API. We wholeheartedly agree that future IT and AT should
be built on an accessibility API to the extent feasible, that it will
improve interoperability, and would probably cut back significantly on
development costs for AT, in most cases. However, we do not want to
force existing AT companies out of business just because they do not
have the money to revamp their technologies and utilize an accessibility
API when one did not exist before, nor do we want to tell a company it
cannot develop AT if the accessibility API is inadequate to meet the
needs of the AT it is trying to develop, nor do we want to say that
merely implementing an accessibility API alone is a sufficient proxy for
accessibility.

Jessica

----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Damery" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "TEITAC Web/Software Subcommittee"
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 1:46 PM
Subject: Re: [teitac-websoftware]Startingdiscussionson theAccessibility
APIproposal


Jessica,

Very well said.

Just to follow up on this line of thought, another concern when making
the API the "gold standard" should be what the incentive will be for AT
to do anything beyond the API, if it becomes the measurement for
procurement. As I understand it, a limited API could make it easier to
swallow for I T but at the same time, stifle smaller AT companies from
being able to help achieve access for users if it requires anything
beyond it. I suspect the same will be true for AT designed in at the
system level.

Regards,
Eric Damery

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Jessica
M. Brodey
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 4:21 PM
To: 'TEITAC Web/Software Subcommittee'
Subject: Re: [teitac-websoftware]Startingdiscussionson theAccessibility
APIproposal

Jim:

Speaking as a policy wonk in lay terms, I think that the common
misunderstanding here is that use of an accessibility API equals
accessibility. Just because there is an accessibility API does not mean
that every piece of AT automatically works all of the time - it just
increases the odds of existing AT working with new products. But,
sometimes new technologies come with new features. If the AT did not
take into account those new features or capabilities, support for those
features still needs to be built in. An accessibility API makes it
easier to build in support for those features, and makes it less
burdensome for the AT vendors to do so (and means supporting those
features should be more standardized), but it is not always automatic.
Also, as I understand it, just because a company uses the accessibility
API does not mean it implements the API in exactly the same way as
another company, thus, it is possible a piece of AT may not work
perfectly with one product that uses the accessibility API but may work
perfectly with another, and thus it may not be fully compatible with
every product. So, the verdict is that an accessibility API could be
useful, could improve things, but does not mean that compliance with the
API will equal access.

Another problem is that adopting an accessibility API that is the "gold
standard" today may quickly be old and out of date in 6 months or a
year. While we are in danger of this for many aspects of 508, it is
particularly worrisome for how AT interfaces with IT, because it could
stifle the growth and expansion of new AT, particularly if the
accessibility API becomes the excuse or justification . . . "well, we
used the accessibility API, we don't have to be compatible with ACTUAL
AT." At some point not too far off, because the API won't be able to
grow and evolve once put into regulation, what started off as a means to
improve accessibility could actually become the one bar to providing
real access.

Jessica Brodey

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Jim
Tobias
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 11:01 AM
To: 'TEITAC Web/Software Subcommittee'
Subject: Re: [teitac-websoftware] Startingdiscussionson theAccessibility
APIproposal

Your concerns are justified, but you have the concepts backwards.
Thinking in terms of an accessibility value chain guarantees that we are
thinking of all the steps required to give the end user access.
Separating the regs by narrow targets, one product or industry at a
time, ignores the need for both technical and informational
interoperation.

There is no getting around the problem of assigning responsibilities to
the "proper" parties. Luckily 508 burdens the purchaser, who has the
best view of the entire chain, from OEM-type product to developed
product to installed product to user and administrator. In theory. The
problem remains one of information flow rather than raw technological
power, as your example indicates -- Gregorian did not work closely
enough with the AT community.

But that raises another troubling point: why is the Accessibility API
not sufficient? If Gregorian builds its software correctly, why is
additional action required by AT vendors? If Gregorian cannot sell to
the feds until one or more AT vendors acts to make the new product
accessible, isn't that an imbalance of market power? I thought the
whole idea of the Accessibility API was to eliminate that problem.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something....


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gregg Vanderheiden [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 1:52 AM
> To: 'TEITAC Web/Software Subcommittee'
> Subject: Re: [teitac-websoftware] Starting discussionson
> theAccessibility APIproposal
>
> Why value chain is good concept - but we need to be very careful about

> its use in regulatory standards.
>
> I really like the accessibility value chain concept as a way to
> understand this - and to point out the way things work together.
>
> But I worry about it in a discussion of how to structure our
> standards. And I don't think we should structure our standards around

> it. If we did then we would only require that software companies
> "enable" there software to be accessible - but they would have no
> responsibility to actually make sure that there was AT that did work
> with their software and did make it
> accessible. The result is that in fact it would be "meet
> accessibility
> standard" but be unusable by anyone with a disability.
>
> Take the following example.
>
>
> The Gregorian Software company creates a marvelous new media
> technology. It is new, different and extremely compelling web
> software for shopping and transactions using a simulated person and
> live environment over narrow
> bandwidth. They implement it with an accessibility API but
> no one uses the
> technology (of course) til its release in Sept 2007. At its
> announcement it
> is adopted by Amazon, a slew of banks, etc. AT vendors
> begin working with
> it but it will be a year or more before they can get up to speed (sort

> of like when dos went to windows) but this technology spreads at
> Internet speed because it is free downloadable plug in for most users.
>
> Suddenly these sites go black to AT users. But if we write out
> guidelines such that the sites and the Gregorian software company can
> say their software meets access standards, without actually requiring
> them to be supported by real live AT that is out there - and available

> to users.
>
> In fact AT vendors will remember the days before we required software
> to
> actually work with real AT. Software would come out with
> an accessibility
> API but AT vendors were not able get access to it and had very poor
> support
> from software vendors even after release. Only when the
> software was
> required to actually work with real AT did the vendors invite and
> support and even court AT vendors in the same way they invited,
> supported and courted other software and hardware vendors (for
> compatibility) when they released something new.
>
> So I think the "accessibility value chain" is a very important
> concept. But I don't think we should base our standards on it.
>
> I think that something is accessible if it can be used by real people
> who have disabilities, not just that it theoretically could be if only

> those other people had done their job.
>
> Accessible - means that it can be used by people with disabilities.
> That means it is either directly accessible. Or that it is accessible

> using the AT that the person with a disability has or can reasonably
> get (or in the case of the government - for its employees - AT they
> are given). For public websites, it would be the AT that the public
> at large has, can reasonably get, or is given.
>
> Any other definition of accessibility defeats the purpose the
> legislators laid out in creating 508. that is that people with
> disabilities could actually use the E&IT in the government alongside
> everyone else - and when it was purchased (not sometime in the future
> - if someone else does their job).
>
>
> Gregg
> -- ------------------------------
> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Jim
> > Tobias
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 9:35 AM
> > To: 'TEITAC Web/Software Subcommittee'
> > Subject: Re: [teitac-websoftware] Starting discussions on
> > theAccessibility APIproposal
> >
> > Sean Hayes wrote:
> >
> > "Firstly I agree that there is a problem that needs
> adressing here,
> > which is the equitable division of reponsibility on accessibility
> > between each entity involved in delivering a software product.
> > However, as we are all aware, this is very difficult problem given
> > the manner in which modern software is produced, which in most
> > significant products involves cooperation across multiple
> > organisations, not only the software product developer, but OS
> > vendors, hardware vendors, AT vendors and middleware vendors among
> > others. In some cases standards or industry practice
> already exists
> > around these interfaces, and in some cases it doesn't."
> >
> > I would like to take this opportunity to develop a little
> further the
> > concept of an "accessibility value chain", which Sean refers to
> > indirectly. I believe that clarifying these responsibilities is at
> > the heart of "modern" accessibility, because, as Sean notes, modern
> > software requires cooperation across multiple
> organizations, many of
> > whom have only indirect relationships.
> >
> > I would like to posit that the nature of this technical cooperation
> > has three distinct elements or phases: capability, implementation,
> > and preservation. By
> > "capability" I mean that the software component contains all the
> > features necessary for accessible use or development.
> > Examples are the ability to add a text description to an image in a
> > web development tool, and the ability to record and play
> back Baudot
> > files in a voice mail platform. By "implementation" I mean
> that the
> > capability has actually been used by the next link in the
> chain. That
> > is, the web developer has actually added a text description to an
> > image, and the telecom manager has actually set up a voice
> mailbox so
> > a Baudot TTY user can receive messages. By "preservation" I mean
> > that the next link in the chain is required not to interfere with
> > the accessibility feature already in place further up the chain.
> > For example, a digital cable system must not strip the captioning
> > information from a captioned video program during transmission.
> >
> > Most of the relationships in the chain are
> capability-implementation
> > ones, especially for web and software. Thus the current
> 508 requires
> > software to inherit system display settings, use standard OS text
> > presentation techniques, etc.
> >
> > I think this formulation may clarify for us where we want
> to go. For
> > example, we have mentioned adding OS requirements.
> > That is, current 508 requires "downlink" software to honor OS
> > accessibility features, but it doesn't require OSs to have those
> > features. I think we may agree on adding such a requirement,
> > especially if we use today's common OSs as models rather
> than dreaming
> > up new features OSs don't have yet.
> >
> > Another point that may meet more resistance, but seems
> clear to me, is
> > the utter inseperability of content from software once we
> agree that
> > there is an interlocking set of relationships in the web/software
> > arena. In the examples of the web page and voice mail
> system I used
> > above, how can the tools be abstracted from the content?
> My thinking
> > here is not very well developed, so I look forward to a dialogue.
> >
> >