Thread Subject: Re: Subpart ADefinitions-Captioning- ActionNeeded

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From: Larry Goldberg
Date: Wed, May 02 2007 1:35 PM
Subject: Re: Subpart ADefinitions-Captioning- ActionNeeded

Let's also remember that the caption data used to create what has long been
accepted as "closed captions" in the US have other qualities and aspects
that bit-mapped subtitles do not:

- they can be used for searching

- they can be altered by the user, especially in the CEA-708 implementation;
user control includes size, font, color and other stylistic parameters that
aid comprehension and clarity

- they can be readily transformed into other data formats, including ASCII
text for use by deaf-blind individuals and for printable transcripts.

- bitmapped subtitles are not malleable in these ways.

The confusion of captions with subtitles needs to be avoided. The fact that
the new DVD formats (HD-DVD and BluRay) cannot presently support CEA-708
caption data is not a reason to confuse captions with subtitles nor to do
away with the 25-year-old marketplace acceptance of closed captions in this
country that includes significant industry and consumer infrastructure.

- Larry



geoff freed wrote:

>
> Hi, Allen:
>
> I very strongly disagree. Captions and subtitles are definitely not
> equivalent in terms of the information they deliver. As I said
> before, the only similarity is that they are text on the screen. To
> use the terms captions and subtitles would create a good deal of
> confusion in both the industry and the audience-- not to mention the
> current confusion between what North America calls captions and what
> much of the rest of the world calls subtitles (not to be confused
> with foreign language subtitles, which is what we're disagreeing
> about in the first place!).
>
>> If one were to encode the caption text on a DVD using sub-title
>> encoding
>> mechanism, and label the menu item "captions" would the content be
>> different?
>>
>
> It's actually not a question of delivery, as you describe here, it's
> a question of content. Delivering bit-mapped captions instead of
> delivering, say, EIA-608 or 708 captions is merely a different way of
> showing the same data. I urge this group not to equate captions with
> subtitles, and I also urge the group to keep the two distinct.
>
> Geoff/NCAM
>
>
>
>
> On May 2, 2007, at 1:43 PM, Hoffman, Allen wrote:
>
>> Jeff:
>>
>> I agree with Paul, and am pleased to see this modification to the
>> captioning definition to keep the two similar deliveries in the same
>> body of definition. Personally I think captioning is equivalent with
>> sub-titling and keeping "captioning" as a separate non-mainstream item
>> conflicts directly with inclusion of accessibility requirements with
>> general information technology.
>>
>> If one were to encode the caption text on a DVD using sub-title
>> encoding
>> mechanism, and label the menu item "captions" would the content be
>> different? I'm not so sure it is. If the historical norm is to label
>> such content captions, the technical storage method is far less
>> important isn't it? I understand that getting captioning even
>> prepared
>> for many sets of content has been a great struggle, and all those
>> involved in that work are to be repeatedly commended and thanked, but
>> attaching the functionality of providing text-based alternative for
>> audio content to only one technical storage and retrieval method
>> may not
>> be in the best interest of accomplishing the goal. I think this is
>> why
>> the functional differences need to be identified specifically and a
>> minimum for the 508 standard be set. I think we have done basically
>> that so far in the provisions we have hammered out.
>>
>>
>>
>> Allen Hoffman -- 202-447-0303
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of geoff
>> freed
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 1:34 PM
>> To: TEITAC Subpart A Subcommittee
>> Cc: Schomburg, Paul
>> Subject: Re: [teitac-subparta] Subpart A Definitions-Captioning-
>> ActionNeeded
>>
>>
>> Hi, Paul:
>>
>>> Folks: I think it is a common misconception that subtitles and
>>> captions are different, although historically they have been used
>>> differently.
>>> In reality, however, both can provide the same kinds of
>>> information in
>>
>>> a functionally equivalent manner.
>>
>>
>> I must disagree. Captions and foreign-language subtitles are alike
>> only
>> in that they are text displayed on the screen. Otherwise, they are
>> functionally different: captions are aimed at deaf and hard-of-
>> hearing
>> people, and subtitles are aimed at hearing people; captions contain
>> cues
>> about non-speech information, and subtitles do not; captions are often
>> placed in specific targets of the viewing area to indicate who is
>> speaking, and subtitles are usually not; captions are written in the
>> same language as the audio, and subtitles are translations. I
>> think it
>> would be a big mistake to equate the two, especially when years of
>> work
>> have gone into differentiating them.
>>
>> However, you are correct that some packaged media, like DVDs, contain
>> a track called subtitles for the deaf and hard of hearing (or SDH).
>> I'm not fond of this designation, but it exists and probably isn't
>> going to go away any time soon. Adding it to the definition of
>> captions won't harm anything, so I propose the following revision:
>>
>> =====
>> Captions: Captions are synchronized text equivalents of audio
>> information. They are in the same language of the audio and convey
>> not
>> only speech content, but also non-speech information such as sound
>> effects, music, laughter, and speaker identification and location.
>> Captions shall not obscure or obstruct relevant visual information.
>> In some
>> countries captions are called subtitles. In some packaged media,
>> captions may be designated "subtitles for the deaf and hard of hearing
>> (SDH)."
>> ======
>>
>> Also, please note above that I propose changing the term "captioning"
>> to "captions."
>>
>> Geoff/NCAM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 2, 2007, at 10:55 AM, Schomburg, Paul wrote:
>>
>>> Folks: I think it is a common misconception that subtitles and
>>> captions are different, although historically they have been used
>>> differently.
>>> In reality, however, both can provide the same kinds of
>>> information in
>>
>>> a functionally equivalent manner. For this reason I would like to
>>> suggest the following changes to the definition proposed by Geoff as
>>> follows:
>>>
>>> Captions are synchronized text equivalents for audio information.
>>> Captions convey the content of spoken dialogue, but also include text
>>> for non-spoken information such as important sound effects, music,
>>> laughter, and speaker identification and location. Captions should
>>> not obscure or obstruct relevant or key information. In some
>>> packaged
>>
>>> media, captions may be provided as "subtitles for the deaf and
>>> hard of
>>
>>> hearing."
>>>
>>> Thanks, Paul
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of geoff
>>> freed
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 2:14 PM
>>> To: 'TEITAC Subpart A Subcommittee'
>>> Subject: Re: [teitac-subparta] Subpart A Definitions-Captioning-
>>> ActionNeeded
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> RECOMMENDED LANGUAGE:
>>>> Captioning: Captions are synchronized text equivalents for audio
>>>> information. Captions are similar to subtitles in that they convey
>>>> the content of spoken dialogue, but also include text for non-spoken
>>>> information such as important sound effects, music, laughter, and
>>>> speaker identification and location. Captions should not obscure or
>>>> obstruct relevant or key information. In some countries captions are
>>>> called subtitles.
>>>
>>>
>>> __XX_ I'm recommending that the group consider the following changes:
>>>
>>>
>>> ======
>>> Captioning: Captions are synchronized text equivalents of audio
>>> information. They are in the same language of the audio and convey
>>> not
>>> only speech content, but also non-speech information such as sound
>>> effects, music, laughter, and speaker identification and location.
>>> Captions should not obstruct relevant visual information. In some
>>> countries captions are called subtitles.
>>> ======
>>>
>>>
>>> Note that I took out the reference to foreign-language subtitles.
>>> While
>>>
>>> it's easy to draw similarities between captions and subtitles, they
>>> really are different things.
>>>
>>> Geoff/NCAM
>>>
>>>
>>>

From: Larry Goldberg
Date: Thu, May 03 2007 1:30 PM
Subject: Subpart ADefinitions-Captioning- ActionNeeded

As suggested by Deborah Buck of the Subpart A subcommittee, the AV
Subcommittee needs to take on the work of refining the definitions of
captioning and video description.

Deborah said:
> Since there is so much discussion regarding the definition for Captioning
> the Subpart A workgroup will rely on the final advice and recommendations of
> the Audio -Video group as they have the technical expertise needed to guide
> this decision.

Below is the latest on this from Paul Schomburg of Panasonic on the issue of
CEA-708 DTV CC support in the newest generation of DVD players and formats.
We have had some of this discussion in our group already, but clearly need
to revisit it. I will comment briefly only that Paul's suggestion that:

> The next
> generation of high definition recorded media, such as Blu-ray disc, will
> provide much more capability to authors.

And

> With these capabilities, government content authors should be able to
> encode subtitles in a manner at least equivalent to DTV closed captions
> (CEA-708) used in broadcast television. 

What this suggests is that a new authoring system and methodology, which
presently does not exist, has never been implemented or demonstrated, and
which would be proprietary to each DVD author, could simulate the user
controls available to users of DTV CEA-708 captions. Each author would have
to reinvent a means for authoring in this new environment or vendors would
have to develop authoring tools to enable such user control. All because the
new formats (HD-DVD and BluRay) neglected to build in support for a widely
accepted, thoroughly documented, widely published and technologically
supported standard. This seems to me to be a major burden on DVD authors and
is unlikely to be implemented, resulting in a fall-back to standard
bitmapped subtitles that incorporate no user control whatsoever.

That said, this is a topic which bears further discussion. I would like to
reconvene the AV Subcommittee next week to restart this discussion in
advance of the upcoming face-to-face. While I am unavailable at our
previous meeting time next Wednesday, how about a meeting next Tuesday (5/8)
or Thursday (5/10) at 3pm ET? And another one the following week - back on
Wednesday (5/16) at 3pm?

- Larry


------ Forwarded Message
> From: geoff freed < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 08:04:41 -0400
> To: larry goldberg < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Fwd: [teitac-subparta] Subpart A Definitions-Captioning- ActionNeeded
>
> From: "Schomburg, Paul" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Date: May 2, 2007 5:59:44 PM EDT
> To: TEITAC Subpart A Subcommittee < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Cc: "Schomburg, Paul" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [teitac-subparta] Subpart A Definitions-Captioning- ActionNeeded
> Reply-To: TEITAC Subpart A Subcommittee < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>
>
> Folks:  This has been good discussion but I agree with Diane that the AV
> Subcommittee should review and provide its recommendation.  
>
> I think that some of the concerns about subtitles is due to the current
> limitations of subtitles in standard definition DVDs.  The next
> generation of high definition recorded media, such as Blu-ray disc, will
> provide much more capability to authors.  For example, Blu-ray disc's
> website
> (http://www.blu-raydisc.com/Section-13470/Section-13627/Index.html)
> notes: "In DVD-Video, subtitles were stored in the audio/video stream,
> and therefore they had limitations on the number of languages and
> display styles. Again, it is due to Blu-ray Disc's ability to read data
> from the disc without interrupting the current audio/video stream, that
> subtitles can be stored independently on the disc. A user may select
> different font styles, sizes and colors for the subtitles, or location
> on screen, depending on the disc's offerings. Subtitles can be animated,
> scrolled or faded in and out."  
>
> With these capabilities, government content authors should be able to
> encode subtitles in a manner at least equivalent to DTV closed captions
> (CEA-708) used in broadcast television.  The use of subtitles in
> packaged media does not have to be limited just to foreign language
> translation, but can also include all the audible cues that someone with
> a hearing disability would appreciate knowing about.  Both government
> and the public would benefit from the use of commercial off-the-shelf
> media formats that functionally support what people with disabilities
> require for equivalent access.  TEITAC should define only the kind of
> information that needs to be encoded in the media to provide
> accessibility and avoid favoring specific technical formats.  As the
> commercial marketplace evolves at an ever-increasing pace, TEITAC should
> avoid requiring the use of specific formats that could later become
> obsolete.  
>
> All that said, I think the definition proposed by Geoff is a good
> starting point.  I would only suggest that the sentence "Captions shall
> not obscure or obstruct relevant visual information" does not really
> help with the definition of "captions". Rather, this is more of a
> qualitative requirement for the authoring or rendering of captions.  As
> an implementation issue this is important -- and should be addressed by
> the AV Subcommittee -- but I don't think it is relevant to the
> definition in Subpart A.  
>
> For all these reasons, the definition I would prefer is as follows: 
> =====
> Captions: Captions are synchronized text equivalents of audio
> information.  They are in the same language of the audio and convey not
> only speech content, but also non-speech information such as sound
> effects, music, laughter, and speaker identification and location.  In
> some countries captions are called subtitles.  In some packaged media,
> captions may be designated "subtitles for the deaf and hard of hearing
> (SDH)."
>  ======
>
> Best regards, Paul

------ End of Forwarded Message