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Thread: Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

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Number of posts in this thread: 17 (In chronological order)

From: Barry
Date: Tue, Feb 09 2021 4:19AM
Subject: Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus
No previous message | Next message →

Hi all



I am looking at a Single-Page web application where several journeys can be
undertaken via hitting buttons. Hitting a button forces the focus to the
title of the updated content virtually as if the focus has not moved and the
content was always there for a screen reader. There is a sitemap, but the
focus is always past it so the screen reader user is unaware of its
presence. The alt left cursor does take the screen reader user back,
closing the actioned page update and leaving the focus on the button that
actioned the update. Each use of 'back' takes the user back in the journey
in this way.



My question is, is not being aware of the sitemap an issue? My concern is
that the sitemap has buttons that can take the user back to anywhere in the
journey in one go. My problem is that the current forced focus is very neat
and accessible.



Thanks in anticipation



Cheers



Barry

From: wolfgang.berndorfer@zweiterblick.at
Date: Tue, Feb 09 2021 2:00PM
Subject: Re: Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus
← Previous message | Next message →

My thoughts as a SR user:

When I visit a Single-Page web application or anything else for the first time, I must explore the page.
If I understood you right, I at first arrive at the sitemap. So, I know about it.

If each journey (in the form) really is realized as a button and not a link, I must know that I don't get to a new address but that something happenes on the page. So, the focus should be there, where I must interact next.
And I should have the sitemap above in mind.

Your sitemap probably should be realized with links or it is not a sitemap.

I know that the distinction between button- and link-semantics are underestimated even in tutorials. But I imagine, this could help understanding your website.

Now you should still consider usability issues since users have to keep the existence of the sitemap above in mind. What if they forgot?

Perhaps the application / form standing alone with an added link to a sitemap could help?

Are you concerned about SC 3.2.5 Change on Request? Thank you very much since it is positioned only under AAA.

Wolfgang

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Barry via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 12:20 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

Hi all



I am looking at a Single-Page web application where several journeys can be
undertaken via hitting buttons. Hitting a button forces the focus to the
title of the updated content virtually as if the focus has not moved and the content was always there for a screen reader. There is a sitemap, but the focus is always past it so the screen reader user is unaware of its presence. The alt left cursor does take the screen reader user back, closing the actioned page update and leaving the focus on the button that actioned the update. Each use of 'back' takes the user back in the journey in this way.



My question is, is not being aware of the sitemap an issue? My concern is that the sitemap has buttons that can take the user back to anywhere in the journey in one go. My problem is that the current forced focus is very neat and accessible.



Thanks in anticipation



Cheers



Barry

From: Barry
Date: Wed, Feb 10 2021 7:29AM
Subject: Re: Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus
← Previous message | Next message →

Thanks, Wolfgang.

A user would reach these particular dynamic web pages via a link from another part of the site and the SR focus would land on the h1, which is below the sitemap. Perhaps this is the problem. I don't think it goes against any WCAG, but I am concerned that it is not best practice.

The sitemap does have a navigation region tag, and I'm going to suggest that they change this to a sitemap region tag.

Cheers

Barry





-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Sent: 09 February 2021 9:00 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

My thoughts as a SR user:

When I visit a Single-Page web application or anything else for the first time, I must explore the page.
If I understood you right, I at first arrive at the sitemap. So, I know about it.

If each journey (in the form) really is realized as a button and not a link, I must know that I don't get to a new address but that something happenes on the page. So, the focus should be there, where I must interact next.
And I should have the sitemap above in mind.

Your sitemap probably should be realized with links or it is not a sitemap.

I know that the distinction between button- and link-semantics are underestimated even in tutorials. But I imagine, this could help understanding your website.

Now you should still consider usability issues since users have to keep the existence of the sitemap above in mind. What if they forgot?

Perhaps the application / form standing alone with an added link to a sitemap could help?

Are you concerned about SC 3.2.5 Change on Request? Thank you very much since it is positioned only under AAA.

Wolfgang

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Barry via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 12:20 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

Hi all



I am looking at a Single-Page web application where several journeys can be
undertaken via hitting buttons. Hitting a button forces the focus to the
title of the updated content virtually as if the focus has not moved and the content was always there for a screen reader. There is a sitemap, but the focus is always past it so the screen reader user is unaware of its presence. The alt left cursor does take the screen reader user back, closing the actioned page update and leaving the focus on the button that actioned the update. Each use of 'back' takes the user back in the journey in this way.



My question is, is not being aware of the sitemap an issue? My concern is that the sitemap has buttons that can take the user back to anywhere in the journey in one go. My problem is that the current forced focus is very neat and accessible.



Thanks in anticipation



Cheers



Barry

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Wed, Feb 10 2021 8:11AM
Subject: Re: Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus
← Previous message | Next message →

On 10/02/2021 14:29, Barry via WebAIM-Forum wrote:
> The sitemap does have a navigation region tag, and I'm going to suggest that they change this to a sitemap region tag.

Ah what? There is no sitemap region tag or role, unless I'm missing
something...

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: wolfgang.berndorfer@zweiterblick.at
Date: Wed, Feb 10 2021 8:16AM
Subject: Re: Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus
← Previous message | Next message →

> A user would reach these particular dynamic web pages via a link from another part of the site and the SR focus would land on the h1, which is below the sitemap.

Surely it is no good idea to move away the focus initially away from the top with very few exceptions (log-in page, search engine home page)

> The sitemap does have a navigation region tag, and I'm going to suggest that they change this to a sitemap region tag.

What is a sitemap region tag? Do you mean:
<nav aria-label="sitemap">

IMO <footer> or <aside> would not have a similar precision for the role of a sitemap.

Wolfgang


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Barry via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2021 3:30 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

Thanks, Wolfgang.

A user would reach these particular dynamic web pages via a link from another part of the site and the SR focus would land on the h1, which is below the sitemap. Perhaps this is the problem. I don't think it goes against any WCAG, but I am concerned that it is not best practice.

The sitemap does have a navigation region tag, and I'm going to suggest that they change this to a sitemap region tag.

Cheers

Barry





-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Sent: 09 February 2021 9:00 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

My thoughts as a SR user:

When I visit a Single-Page web application or anything else for the first time, I must explore the page.
If I understood you right, I at first arrive at the sitemap. So, I know about it.

If each journey (in the form) really is realized as a button and not a link, I must know that I don't get to a new address but that something happenes on the page. So, the focus should be there, where I must interact next.
And I should have the sitemap above in mind.

Your sitemap probably should be realized with links or it is not a sitemap.

I know that the distinction between button- and link-semantics are underestimated even in tutorials. But I imagine, this could help understanding your website.

Now you should still consider usability issues since users have to keep the existence of the sitemap above in mind. What if they forgot?

Perhaps the application / form standing alone with an added link to a sitemap could help?

Are you concerned about SC 3.2.5 Change on Request? Thank you very much since it is positioned only under AAA.

Wolfgang

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Barry via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 12:20 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

Hi all



I am looking at a Single-Page web application where several journeys can be
undertaken via hitting buttons. Hitting a button forces the focus to the
title of the updated content virtually as if the focus has not moved and the content was always there for a screen reader. There is a sitemap, but the focus is always past it so the screen reader user is unaware of its presence. The alt left cursor does take the screen reader user back, closing the actioned page update and leaving the focus on the button that actioned the update. Each use of 'back' takes the user back in the journey in this way.



My question is, is not being aware of the sitemap an issue? My concern is that the sitemap has buttons that can take the user back to anywhere in the journey in one go. My problem is that the current forced focus is very neat and accessible.



Thanks in anticipation



Cheers



Barry

From: Barry
Date: Wed, Feb 10 2021 9:07AM
Subject: Re: Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus
← Previous message | Next message →

Actually, Wolfgang, now that I've looked at it again, the focus lands in the cookie controls and I have just been automaticcaly hitting 1 to get to the h1.

As for the sitemap region, yes, it was just as you say.

Cheers

Barry


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Sent: 10 February 2021 3:16 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

> A user would reach these particular dynamic web pages via a link from another part of the site and the SR focus would land on the h1, which is below the sitemap.

Surely it is no good idea to move away the focus initially away from the top with very few exceptions (log-in page, search engine home page)

> The sitemap does have a navigation region tag, and I'm going to suggest that they change this to a sitemap region tag.

What is a sitemap region tag? Do you mean:
<nav aria-label="sitemap">

IMO <footer> or <aside> would not have a similar precision for the role of a sitemap.

Wolfgang


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Barry via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2021 3:30 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

Thanks, Wolfgang.

A user would reach these particular dynamic web pages via a link from another part of the site and the SR focus would land on the h1, which is below the sitemap. Perhaps this is the problem. I don't think it goes against any WCAG, but I am concerned that it is not best practice.

The sitemap does have a navigation region tag, and I'm going to suggest that they change this to a sitemap region tag.

Cheers

Barry





-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Sent: 09 February 2021 9:00 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

My thoughts as a SR user:

When I visit a Single-Page web application or anything else for the first time, I must explore the page.
If I understood you right, I at first arrive at the sitemap. So, I know about it.

If each journey (in the form) really is realized as a button and not a link, I must know that I don't get to a new address but that something happenes on the page. So, the focus should be there, where I must interact next.
And I should have the sitemap above in mind.

Your sitemap probably should be realized with links or it is not a sitemap.

I know that the distinction between button- and link-semantics are underestimated even in tutorials. But I imagine, this could help understanding your website.

Now you should still consider usability issues since users have to keep the existence of the sitemap above in mind. What if they forgot?

Perhaps the application / form standing alone with an added link to a sitemap could help?

Are you concerned about SC 3.2.5 Change on Request? Thank you very much since it is positioned only under AAA.

Wolfgang

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Barry via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 12:20 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

Hi all



I am looking at a Single-Page web application where several journeys can be
undertaken via hitting buttons. Hitting a button forces the focus to the
title of the updated content virtually as if the focus has not moved and the content was always there for a screen reader. There is a sitemap, but the focus is always past it so the screen reader user is unaware of its presence. The alt left cursor does take the screen reader user back, closing the actioned page update and leaving the focus on the button that actioned the update. Each use of 'back' takes the user back in the journey in this way.



My question is, is not being aware of the sitemap an issue? My concern is that the sitemap has buttons that can take the user back to anywhere in the journey in one go. My problem is that the current forced focus is very neat and accessible.



Thanks in anticipation



Cheers



Barry

From: Mark Magennis
Date: Wed, Feb 10 2021 9:16AM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL]Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus
← Previous message | Next message →

Ni Barry,

This sounds like quite a common UI pattern. You have a site where each page starts with a common Table of Contents navigation panel containing links to every available page. After that comes the unique page content which starts with an h1 heading. Each page contains a Next page button and a Back button. It sounds like each of your pages may have more than one option for Next page, allowing for different journeys, but I don't think that's important. Is that a correct description of your site?

Three questions are:
1. On each page transition, should focus be moved to the page heading?
2. If so, does it matter that the common Table of Contents comes before the page heading in the reading order?
3. Does the fact that this is a single page application rather than a set of separate URLs matter?

Question 2 is the one you asked but I think questions 1 and 3 are also important.

As Wolfgang has said, it's not normally a good idea when a new page loads to place focus anywhere other than the top of the page. However, it may be appropriate if the user is engaged in a predictable workflow where you can predict with certainty what they will want to read or interact with and this is quite distant from the top of the page or cumbersome to navigate to. In your case, the user has chosen to go to a particular next page for their journey, so it seems unlikely that they will want to use the Table of Contents. So moving focus seems reasonable. And I don't think it does matter that the Table of Contents comes before the page content in the reading order because the user will have encountered it on reading through the page when it first loaded so they will know where it is. So the answers to question 1 and 2 are, in my opinion, Yes and No.

Question 3 is pertinent though. Because there is no URL change, it will appear to a screen reader user that they have just jumped somewhere else on the page. But in fact, all the other content has been removed. So I think you need to ask yourself: How does the user know this? Might it cause problems or confusion if they don't.

Mark

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Sent: 10 February 2021 15:16
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

> A user would reach these particular dynamic web pages via a link from another part of the site and the SR focus would land on the h1, which is below the sitemap.

Surely it is no good idea to move away the focus initially away from the top with very few exceptions (log-in page, search engine home page)

> The sitemap does have a navigation region tag, and I'm going to suggest that they change this to a sitemap region tag.

What is a sitemap region tag? Do you mean:
<nav aria-label="sitemap">

IMO <footer> or <aside> would not have a similar precision for the role of a sitemap.

Wolfgang


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Barry via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2021 3:30 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

Thanks, Wolfgang.

A user would reach these particular dynamic web pages via a link from another part of the site and the SR focus would land on the h1, which is below the sitemap. Perhaps this is the problem. I don't think it goes against any WCAG, but I am concerned that it is not best practice.

The sitemap does have a navigation region tag, and I'm going to suggest that they change this to a sitemap region tag.

Cheers

Barry





-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Sent: 09 February 2021 9:00 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

My thoughts as a SR user:

When I visit a Single-Page web application or anything else for the first time, I must explore the page.
If I understood you right, I at first arrive at the sitemap. So, I know about it.

If each journey (in the form) really is realized as a button and not a link, I must know that I don't get to a new address but that something happenes on the page. So, the focus should be there, where I must interact next.
And I should have the sitemap above in mind.

Your sitemap probably should be realized with links or it is not a sitemap.

I know that the distinction between button- and link-semantics are underestimated even in tutorials. But I imagine, this could help understanding your website.

Now you should still consider usability issues since users have to keep the existence of the sitemap above in mind. What if they forgot?

Perhaps the application / form standing alone with an added link to a sitemap could help?

Are you concerned about SC 3.2.5 Change on Request? Thank you very much since it is positioned only under AAA.

Wolfgang

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Barry via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 12:20 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

Hi all



I am looking at a Single-Page web application where several journeys can be
undertaken via hitting buttons. Hitting a button forces the focus to the
title of the updated content virtually as if the focus has not moved and the content was always there for a screen reader. There is a sitemap, but the focus is always past it so the screen reader user is unaware of its presence. The alt left cursor does take the screen reader user back, closing the actioned page update and leaving the focus on the button that actioned the update. Each use of 'back' takes the user back in the journey in this way.



My question is, is not being aware of the sitemap an issue? My concern is that the sitemap has buttons that can take the user back to anywhere in the journey in one go. My problem is that the current forced focus is very neat and accessible.



Thanks in anticipation



Cheers



Barry

From: Barry
Date: Thu, Feb 11 2021 9:03AM
Subject: Re: Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus
← Previous message | Next message →

Can't we use aria labeledby to give a navigation region a unique label?

Cheers

B


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
Sent: 10 February 2021 3:11 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

On 10/02/2021 14:29, Barry via WebAIM-Forum wrote:
> The sitemap does have a navigation region tag, and I'm going to suggest that they change this to a sitemap region tag.

Ah what? There is no sitemap region tag or role, unless I'm missing something...

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Barry
Date: Thu, Feb 11 2021 9:11AM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL]Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus
← Previous message | Next message →

Thanks, Mark. That is helpful. It doesn't quite describe the situation I'm in. What I have is the site navigation at the top, then the breadcroms as a secondary navigation with the region title of navigation, then the h1. Down the page are buttons that open dynamic content in tiles. So, when a button is hit, the it doesn't open a new page, just extra content on the original page. When the new content opens, the focus goes to the heading of that content. I've no problem with this.

There are other buttons that open a journey, but the journey is also just refreshable tiles. Hitting the back button takes the user back one step in the journey. My issue is that the journey may have three or four steps and these are reflected in the sitemap. However, the focus goes to the h2 heading of the new content, so a screen reader user does not see that they can use the sitemap to navigate straight to the beginning of the journey in order to go on a different journey.

Cheers

Barry



-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Mark Magennis
Sent: 10 February 2021 4:17 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

Ni Barry,

This sounds like quite a common UI pattern. You have a site where each page starts with a common Table of Contents navigation panel containing links to every available page. After that comes the unique page content which starts with an h1 heading. Each page contains a Next page button and a Back button. It sounds like each of your pages may have more than one option for Next page, allowing for different journeys, but I don't think that's important. Is that a correct description of your site?

Three questions are:
1. On each page transition, should focus be moved to the page heading?
2. If so, does it matter that the common Table of Contents comes before the page heading in the reading order?
3. Does the fact that this is a single page application rather than a set of separate URLs matter?

Question 2 is the one you asked but I think questions 1 and 3 are also important.

As Wolfgang has said, it's not normally a good idea when a new page loads to place focus anywhere other than the top of the page. However, it may be appropriate if the user is engaged in a predictable workflow where you can predict with certainty what they will want to read or interact with and this is quite distant from the top of the page or cumbersome to navigate to. In your case, the user has chosen to go to a particular next page for their journey, so it seems unlikely that they will want to use the Table of Contents. So moving focus seems reasonable. And I don't think it does matter that the Table of Contents comes before the page content in the reading order because the user will have encountered it on reading through the page when it first loaded so they will know where it is. So the answers to question 1 and 2 are, in my opinion, Yes and No.

Question 3 is pertinent though. Because there is no URL change, it will appear to a screen reader user that they have just jumped somewhere else on the page. But in fact, all the other content has been removed. So I think you need to ask yourself: How does the user know this? Might it cause problems or confusion if they don't.

Mark

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Sent: 10 February 2021 15:16
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

> A user would reach these particular dynamic web pages via a link from another part of the site and the SR focus would land on the h1, which is below the sitemap.

Surely it is no good idea to move away the focus initially away from the top with very few exceptions (log-in page, search engine home page)

> The sitemap does have a navigation region tag, and I'm going to suggest that they change this to a sitemap region tag.

What is a sitemap region tag? Do you mean:
<nav aria-label="sitemap">

IMO <footer> or <aside> would not have a similar precision for the role of a sitemap.

Wolfgang


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Barry via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2021 3:30 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

Thanks, Wolfgang.

A user would reach these particular dynamic web pages via a link from another part of the site and the SR focus would land on the h1, which is below the sitemap. Perhaps this is the problem. I don't think it goes against any WCAG, but I am concerned that it is not best practice.

The sitemap does have a navigation region tag, and I'm going to suggest that they change this to a sitemap region tag.

Cheers

Barry





-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Sent: 09 February 2021 9:00 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

My thoughts as a SR user:

When I visit a Single-Page web application or anything else for the first time, I must explore the page.
If I understood you right, I at first arrive at the sitemap. So, I know about it.

If each journey (in the form) really is realized as a button and not a link, I must know that I don't get to a new address but that something happenes on the page. So, the focus should be there, where I must interact next.
And I should have the sitemap above in mind.

Your sitemap probably should be realized with links or it is not a sitemap.

I know that the distinction between button- and link-semantics are underestimated even in tutorials. But I imagine, this could help understanding your website.

Now you should still consider usability issues since users have to keep the existence of the sitemap above in mind. What if they forgot?

Perhaps the application / form standing alone with an added link to a sitemap could help?

Are you concerned about SC 3.2.5 Change on Request? Thank you very much since it is positioned only under AAA.

Wolfgang

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Barry via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 12:20 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

Hi all



I am looking at a Single-Page web application where several journeys can be
undertaken via hitting buttons. Hitting a button forces the focus to the
title of the updated content virtually as if the focus has not moved and the content was always there for a screen reader. There is a sitemap, but the focus is always past it so the screen reader user is unaware of its presence. The alt left cursor does take the screen reader user back, closing the actioned page update and leaving the focus on the button that actioned the update. Each use of 'back' takes the user back in the journey in this way.



My question is, is not being aware of the sitemap an issue? My concern is that the sitemap has buttons that can take the user back to anywhere in the journey in one go. My problem is that the current forced focus is very neat and accessible.



Thanks in anticipation



Cheers



Barry

From: Mark Magennis
Date: Thu, Feb 11 2021 10:19AM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL]Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus
← Previous message | Next message →

Yes you can use aria-label or aria-labelledby (if you have some suitable text for it to reference) to give the sitemap and breadcrumb navigation regions unique names. Think carefully about the names though. You could call the breadcrumb region "breadcrumbs" but that's a developer jargon term that a lot of end users have never heard. So "where am I?" may be better.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Barry via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: 11 February 2021 16:03
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

Can't we use aria labeledby to give a navigation region a unique label?

Cheers

B


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
Sent: 10 February 2021 3:11 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

On 10/02/2021 14:29, Barry via WebAIM-Forum wrote:
> The sitemap does have a navigation region tag, and I'm going to suggest that they change this to a sitemap region tag.

Ah what? There is no sitemap region tag or role, unless I'm missing something...

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Barry
Date: Fri, Feb 12 2021 3:16AM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL]Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus
← Previous message | Next message →

"Where am I" is an excellent suggestion. I didn't think of that. Thank you.



-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Mark Magennis
Sent: 11 February 2021 5:20 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

Yes you can use aria-label or aria-labelledby (if you have some suitable text for it to reference) to give the sitemap and breadcrumb navigation regions unique names. Think carefully about the names though. You could call the breadcrumb region "breadcrumbs" but that's a developer jargon term that a lot of end users have never heard. So "where am I?" may be better.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Barry via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: 11 February 2021 16:03
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

Can't we use aria labeledby to give a navigation region a unique label?

Cheers

B


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
Sent: 10 February 2021 3:11 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

On 10/02/2021 14:29, Barry via WebAIM-Forum wrote:
> The sitemap does have a navigation region tag, and I'm going to suggest that they change this to a sitemap region tag.

Ah what? There is no sitemap region tag or role, unless I'm missing something...

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Mark Magennis
Date: Fri, Feb 12 2021 4:23AM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL]Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus
← Previous message | Next message →

A long time ago, while running some user testing, I actually investigated what might be the best name for a breadcrumb trail. It was inconclusive. As many users preferred "breadcrumbs" as any other option, including "Where am I?". But that may say more about the problems of relying on small test samples that are skewed as to experience, technical know-how, etc.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Barry via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: 12 February 2021 10:16
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

"Where am I" is an excellent suggestion. I didn't think of that. Thank you.



-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Mark Magennis
Sent: 11 February 2021 5:20 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

Yes you can use aria-label or aria-labelledby (if you have some suitable text for it to reference) to give the sitemap and breadcrumb navigation regions unique names. Think carefully about the names though. You could call the breadcrumb region "breadcrumbs" but that's a developer jargon term that a lot of end users have never heard. So "where am I?" may be better.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Barry via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: 11 February 2021 16:03
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

Can't we use aria labeledby to give a navigation region a unique label?

Cheers

B


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
Sent: 10 February 2021 3:11 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

On 10/02/2021 14:29, Barry via WebAIM-Forum wrote:
> The sitemap does have a navigation region tag, and I'm going to suggest that they change this to a sitemap region tag.

Ah what? There is no sitemap region tag or role, unless I'm missing something...

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Barry
Date: Fri, Feb 12 2021 4:49AM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL]Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus
← Previous message | Next message →

It's difficult to come up with a term that is both accurately descriptive and not too jargonistic. "Where am I" doesn't describe the breadcrumb of where you've been in that journey. Perhaps that's why some clever bod came up with Breadcrumb.



-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Mark Magennis
Sent: 12 February 2021 11:24 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

A long time ago, while running some user testing, I actually investigated what might be the best name for a breadcrumb trail. It was inconclusive. As many users preferred "breadcrumbs" as any other option, including "Where am I?". But that may say more about the problems of relying on small test samples that are skewed as to experience, technical know-how, etc.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Barry via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: 12 February 2021 10:16
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

"Where am I" is an excellent suggestion. I didn't think of that. Thank you.



-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Mark Magennis
Sent: 11 February 2021 5:20 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

Yes you can use aria-label or aria-labelledby (if you have some suitable text for it to reference) to give the sitemap and breadcrumb navigation regions unique names. Think carefully about the names though. You could call the breadcrumb region "breadcrumbs" but that's a developer jargon term that a lot of end users have never heard. So "where am I?" may be better.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Barry via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: 11 February 2021 16:03
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

Can't we use aria labeledby to give a navigation region a unique label?

Cheers

B


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
Sent: 10 February 2021 3:11 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

On 10/02/2021 14:29, Barry via WebAIM-Forum wrote:
> The sitemap does have a navigation region tag, and I'm going to suggest that they change this to a sitemap region tag.

Ah what? There is no sitemap region tag or role, unless I'm missing something...

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Mark Magennis
Date: Fri, Feb 12 2021 5:20AM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL]Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus
← Previous message | Next message →

As a concept, breadcrumb trail is a bit culturally bound though isn't it. I don't expect the story of Hansel and Gretel is universally known.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Barry via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: 12 February 2021 11:50
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

It's difficult to come up with a term that is both accurately descriptive and not too jargonistic. "Where am I" doesn't describe the breadcrumb of where you've been in that journey. Perhaps that's why some clever bod came up with Breadcrumb.



-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Mark Magennis
Sent: 12 February 2021 11:24 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

A long time ago, while running some user testing, I actually investigated what might be the best name for a breadcrumb trail. It was inconclusive. As many users preferred "breadcrumbs" as any other option, including "Where am I?". But that may say more about the problems of relying on small test samples that are skewed as to experience, technical know-how, etc.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Barry via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: 12 February 2021 10:16
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

"Where am I" is an excellent suggestion. I didn't think of that. Thank you.



-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Mark Magennis
Sent: 11 February 2021 5:20 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

Yes you can use aria-label or aria-labelledby (if you have some suitable text for it to reference) to give the sitemap and breadcrumb navigation regions unique names. Think carefully about the names though. You could call the breadcrumb region "breadcrumbs" but that's a developer jargon term that a lot of end users have never heard. So "where am I?" may be better.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Barry via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: 11 February 2021 16:03
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

Can't we use aria labeledby to give a navigation region a unique label?

Cheers

B


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
Sent: 10 February 2021 3:11 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

On 10/02/2021 14:29, Barry via WebAIM-Forum wrote:
> The sitemap does have a navigation region tag, and I'm going to suggest that they change this to a sitemap region tag.

Ah what? There is no sitemap region tag or role, unless I'm missing something...

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Barry
Date: Fri, Feb 12 2021 5:29AM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL]Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus
← Previous message | Next message →

Good point. I also wonder if younger people know of the story too. Back to the drawing board, I think.


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Mark Magennis
Sent: 12 February 2021 12:21 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

As a concept, breadcrumb trail is a bit culturally bound though isn't it. I don't expect the story of Hansel and Gretel is universally known.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Barry via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: 12 February 2021 11:50
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

It's difficult to come up with a term that is both accurately descriptive and not too jargonistic. "Where am I" doesn't describe the breadcrumb of where you've been in that journey. Perhaps that's why some clever bod came up with Breadcrumb.



-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Mark Magennis
Sent: 12 February 2021 11:24 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

A long time ago, while running some user testing, I actually investigated what might be the best name for a breadcrumb trail. It was inconclusive. As many users preferred "breadcrumbs" as any other option, including "Where am I?". But that may say more about the problems of relying on small test samples that are skewed as to experience, technical know-how, etc.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Barry via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: 12 February 2021 10:16
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

"Where am I" is an excellent suggestion. I didn't think of that. Thank you.



-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Mark Magennis
Sent: 11 February 2021 5:20 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

Yes you can use aria-label or aria-labelledby (if you have some suitable text for it to reference) to give the sitemap and breadcrumb navigation regions unique names. Think carefully about the names though. You could call the breadcrumb region "breadcrumbs" but that's a developer jargon term that a lot of end users have never heard. So "where am I?" may be better.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Barry via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: 11 February 2021 16:03
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

Can't we use aria labeledby to give a navigation region a unique label?

Cheers

B


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
Sent: 10 February 2021 3:11 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

On 10/02/2021 14:29, Barry via WebAIM-Forum wrote:
> The sitemap does have a navigation region tag, and I'm going to suggest that they change this to a sitemap region tag.

Ah what? There is no sitemap region tag or role, unless I'm missing something...

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Mark Magennis
Date: Fri, Feb 12 2021 5:39AM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL]Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus
← Previous message | Next message →

Bear in mind though that the meaning for a lot of UI terms is not immediately known or guessable but as long as they become commonplace then they may be considered sufficiently learnable. Think of "window" and "mouse" for example. The first time someone ever used a computer, when they didn't already know the meaning of these terms, asking them to "move the mouse to that window" would probably produce a blank stare. But these terms are so universal that they are easily learnable. The person doesn't even have to know that a mouse is a small rodent with a long tail. Not sure if breadcrumb falls into that bracket though. It's debatable.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Barry via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: 12 February 2021 12:29
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

Good point. I also wonder if younger people know of the story too. Back to the drawing board, I think.


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Mark Magennis
Sent: 12 February 2021 12:21 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

As a concept, breadcrumb trail is a bit culturally bound though isn't it. I don't expect the story of Hansel and Gretel is universally known.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Barry via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: 12 February 2021 11:50
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

It's difficult to come up with a term that is both accurately descriptive and not too jargonistic. "Where am I" doesn't describe the breadcrumb of where you've been in that journey. Perhaps that's why some clever bod came up with Breadcrumb.



-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Mark Magennis
Sent: 12 February 2021 11:24 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

A long time ago, while running some user testing, I actually investigated what might be the best name for a breadcrumb trail. It was inconclusive. As many users preferred "breadcrumbs" as any other option, including "Where am I?". But that may say more about the problems of relying on small test samples that are skewed as to experience, technical know-how, etc.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Barry via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: 12 February 2021 10:16
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

"Where am I" is an excellent suggestion. I didn't think of that. Thank you.



-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Mark Magennis
Sent: 11 February 2021 5:20 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

Yes you can use aria-label or aria-labelledby (if you have some suitable text for it to reference) to give the sitemap and breadcrumb navigation regions unique names. Think carefully about the names though. You could call the breadcrumb region "breadcrumbs" but that's a developer jargon term that a lot of end users have never heard. So "where am I?" may be better.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Barry via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: 11 February 2021 16:03
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

Can't we use aria labeledby to give a navigation region a unique label?

Cheers

B


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
Sent: 10 February 2021 3:11 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

On 10/02/2021 14:29, Barry via WebAIM-Forum wrote:
> The sitemap does have a navigation region tag, and I'm going to suggest that they change this to a sitemap region tag.

Ah what? There is no sitemap region tag or role, unless I'm missing something...

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: wolfgang.berndorfer@zweiterblick.at
Date: Fri, Feb 12 2021 8:35AM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL]Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus
← Previous message | No next message

Happy in German language! Though the fairy tale is from Germany, " Brotkrümel " (Þ breadcrumbs) never was used. "Standort" has become common, which siply meands "location", "position" or "standing point".

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Mark Magennis
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2021 1:40 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

Bear in mind though that the meaning for a lot of UI terms is not immediately known or guessable but as long as they become commonplace then they may be considered sufficiently learnable. Think of "window" and "mouse" for example. The first time someone ever used a computer, when they didn't already know the meaning of these terms, asking them to "move the mouse to that window" would probably produce a blank stare. But these terms are so universal that they are easily learnable. The person doesn't even have to know that a mouse is a small rodent with a long tail. Not sure if breadcrumb falls into that bracket though. It's debatable.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Barry via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: 12 February 2021 12:29
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

Good point. I also wonder if younger people know of the story too. Back to the drawing board, I think.


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Mark Magennis
Sent: 12 February 2021 12:21 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

As a concept, breadcrumb trail is a bit culturally bound though isn't it. I don't expect the story of Hansel and Gretel is universally known.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Barry via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: 12 February 2021 11:50
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

It's difficult to come up with a term that is both accurately descriptive and not too jargonistic. "Where am I" doesn't describe the breadcrumb of where you've been in that journey. Perhaps that's why some clever bod came up with Breadcrumb.



-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Mark Magennis
Sent: 12 February 2021 11:24 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

A long time ago, while running some user testing, I actually investigated what might be the best name for a breadcrumb trail. It was inconclusive. As many users preferred "breadcrumbs" as any other option, including "Where am I?". But that may say more about the problems of relying on small test samples that are skewed as to experience, technical know-how, etc.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Barry via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: 12 February 2021 10:16
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

"Where am I" is an excellent suggestion. I didn't think of that. Thank you.



-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Mark Magennis
Sent: 11 February 2021 5:20 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

Yes you can use aria-label or aria-labelledby (if you have some suitable text for it to reference) to give the sitemap and breadcrumb navigation regions unique names. Think carefully about the names though. You could call the breadcrumb region "breadcrumbs" but that's a developer jargon term that a lot of end users have never heard. So "where am I?" may be better.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Barry via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: 11 February 2021 16:03
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

Can't we use aria labeledby to give a navigation region a unique label?

Cheers

B


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
Sent: 10 February 2021 3:11 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Unaware of sitemap due to forced focus

On 10/02/2021 14:29, Barry via WebAIM-Forum wrote:
> The sitemap does have a navigation region tag, and I'm going to suggest that they change this to a sitemap region tag.

Ah what? There is no sitemap region tag or role, unless I'm missing something...

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

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