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Thread: Title attribute on span tags
Number of posts in this thread: 10 (In chronological order)
From: Rachel
Date: Wed, Mar 05 2003 11:08AM
Subject: Title attribute on span tags
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Does Jaws read the title attribute if it's used on a
span tag? How about Home Page Reader and Windows Eyes?
Example:
<span class="definition" title="tooltip text">sample
phrase</span>
I was planning on using title attribute to show
definitions of words in a tooltip, on mouseover.
Wanted to make sure the major screen readers will read
the contents of the title attribute.
Thanks,
Rachel
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From: Jukka K. Korpela
Date: Wed, Mar 05 2003 11:52AM
Subject: Re: Title attribute on span tags
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On Wed, 5 Mar 2003, Rachel wrote:
> I was planning on using title attribute to show
> definitions of words in a tooltip, on mouseover.
That's a good idea, if the definitions are not needed.
Paradoxical? Well, my point is that you should never rely on having any
essential information presented via the use of title attributes.
As extra kudos, they're fine. Note that the vast majority of all
users will not even be aware of the presence of the title attributes,
since widely used browsers do not indicate their presence - at least not
for span elements.
Thus, anything that needs to be explained needs to be explained in the
textual content or via an explicit link. Normally the explanation should
precede first use, for reasons that are obvious to people on this list but
not otherwise. But in some cases the explanation could be given right
after first use, or at the end of the document, provided that there's a
statement and link referring to the glossary near the beginning.
Note that when a separate glossary or links to external resources
(containing explanations) is used, the first occurrence of a term could be
a link like
<a href="#foo" title="Foo is a generic term for anything">foo</a>
which gives the explanation (perhaps abridged) via a title attribute, yet
lets everyone access the explanation irrespectively of support to and
notice of title attributes.
I have some further notes on explaining terms, largely as a rant against
relying on abbr or acronym markup, at... wait... I can't use any of my
graphic browsers! Something wrong in my system or at my ISP. Luckily, I
can use Lynx on a Unix system I'm logged into, so that I can check the
address. Really. Just anecdotal but true evidence of how accessibility can
become important for unexpected reasons. The address is
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/html/abbr.html
--
Jukka "Yucca" Korpela, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
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From: Paul Bohman
Date: Wed, Mar 05 2003 11:53AM
Subject: RE: Title attribute on span tags
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In my testing, neither JAWS, nor Window-Eyes nor Home Page Reader will read
the title attribute, unfortunately, though there may be a setting that I am
unaware of that would force the programs to read the title attribute. Still,
in the default setting, they do not read it. If anyone else has had a
different experience with screen readers and title attributes, please let us
know!
Paul Bohman
Technology Coordinator
WebAIM (Web Accessibility in Mind)
www.webaim.org
Center for Persons with Disabilities
www.cpd.usu.edu
Utah State University
www.usu.edu
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-----Original Message-----
From: Rachel [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 11:02 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Title attribute on span tags
Does Jaws read the title attribute if it's used on a
span tag? How about Home Page Reader and Windows Eyes?
Example:
<span class="definition" title="tooltip text">sample phrase</span>
I was planning on using title attribute to show
definitions of words in a tooltip, on mouseover.
Wanted to make sure the major screen readers will read
the contents of the title attribute.
Thanks,
Rachel
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From: jeb
Date: Wed, Mar 05 2003 1:01PM
Subject: RE: Title attribute on span tags
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Jukka,
Your message was rather timely as I was in the middle of this ABBR/ACRONYM
conundrum when you message arrived. I just finished reading your rant and
found it useful for my purposes...so thank you.
Not to stir up a hornet's nest, muddy the water or any other choice
metaphor, but...
What is the suggested approach if one is creating a multiple page document
and the abbreviation/acronym is found on multiple pages. Is it sufficient to
only include the details in the "beginning" of the document? Or, must there
be an detail on every page?
Talk about splitting hairs...!! I think it is "cabin fever" getting to me
here in Maine.
John E. Brandt
Web-dude for Maine CITE (www.mainecite.org)
Augusta, ME 04330
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
www.jebswebs.com <http://www.jebswebs.com>;
-----Original Message-----
From: Jukka K. Korpela [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 1:45 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: Title attribute on span tags
On Wed, 5 Mar 2003, Rachel wrote:
> I was planning on using title attribute to show
> definitions of words in a tooltip, on mouseover.
That's a good idea, if the definitions are not needed.
Paradoxical? Well, my point is that you should never rely on having any
essential information presented via the use of title attributes.
As extra kudos, they're fine. Note that the vast majority of all
users will not even be aware of the presence of the title attributes,
since widely used browsers do not indicate their presence - at least not
for span elements.
Thus, anything that needs to be explained needs to be explained in the
textual content or via an explicit link. Normally the explanation should
precede first use, for reasons that are obvious to people on this list but
not otherwise. But in some cases the explanation could be given right
after first use, or at the end of the document, provided that there's a
statement and link referring to the glossary near the beginning.
Note that when a separate glossary or links to external resources
(containing explanations) is used, the first occurrence of a term could be
a link like
<a href="#foo" title="Foo is a generic term for anything">foo</a>
which gives the explanation (perhaps abridged) via a title attribute, yet
lets everyone access the explanation irrespectively of support to and
notice of title attributes.
I have some further notes on explaining terms, largely as a rant against
relying on abbr or acronym markup, at... wait... I can't use any of my
graphic browsers! Something wrong in my system or at my ISP. Luckily, I
can use Lynx on a Unix system I'm logged into, so that I can check the
address. Really. Just anecdotal but true evidence of how accessibility can
become important for unexpected reasons. The address is
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/html/abbr.html
--
Jukka "Yucca" Korpela, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
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From: Jukka K. Korpela
Date: Wed, Mar 05 2003 3:13PM
Subject: RE: Title attribute on span tags
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On Wed, 5 Mar 2003, jeb wrote:
> What is the suggested approach if one is creating a multiple page document
> and the abbreviation/acronym is found on multiple pages. Is it sufficient to
> only include the details in the "beginning" of the document? Or, must there
> be an detail on every page?
I would normally try and set up a separate page containing the
explanations of abbreviations, special symbols and terms, and any unusual
notations, if there is a considerable number (say, more than a dozen) of
them on pages of a site. In that case I would make a note of and link to
that page near the beginning of every page.
Depending on circumstances, the abbreviations etc. might need explanations
on other pages too. But a centralized page of notations would be useful
as a reference - a user could even open it in a separate window, or print
it for reference.
(Well, for a suitable definition of "site", namely a collection of
closely related pages. And no, I haven't got much of such material
on my own pages - I just realized the importance of explaining such
things, not only to people who don't know the abbreviations or terms at
all but to people who know them in _different_ meanings and need to know
how a particular site uses them.)
--
Jukka "Yucca" Korpela, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
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From: Paul Bohman
Date: Wed, Mar 05 2003 3:24PM
Subject: RE: Title attribute on span tags
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I knew that someone was going to be able to provide a more complete answer
to the title attribute question. Here is a post that was sent to me that I
am now forwarding to the list with the permission of the author:
<begin quote>
I am a web accessibility consultant working in Ottawa Canada and a long time
(15 years) screen reader user. Having been a screen reader beta tester for
many years, I also have a good understanding of how these products work with
the web and other applications. With this in mind here is my answer to your
question about screen readers reading the contents of the title attribute.
JAWS has for some time read the title attribute. The problem is that the
search order and reading of different attributes can be adjusted by the
user. For example, let's use a link on a page with some additional advisory
text provided by content in a title attribute. The JAWS default is to read
"screen text" for link text. In this configuration JAWS reads the displayed
link text that is positioned before the closing </a> anchor, but not the
text contained in the title= attribute. However, if you change the JAWS HTML
settings to read "title" for link text then the contents of the title is
spoken. So, JAWS does recognize and read the title attribute although in my
opinion, their implementation of this is not yet perfect. The link example
is a good one to illustrate where I believe their implementation is a bit
flawed. If you change the JAWS default reading of link text to title, then
the text contained in the title attribute is read instead of the displayed
link anchor text. Here is a basic example.
<A href="http://www.webaim.org/"title="contains training guides and
tutorials">How-To></A>
With JAWS set to read "screen text" for links, the text for this link is
read as How To
With JAWS set to read "title" for links, the text for this same link is then
read as contains training guides and tutorials
I believe that the proper JAWS reading behavior should be to read the
displayed link text followed by the pop-up text from the title. Example,
how-to: training guides and tutorials
The only work around I have been able to come up with to achieve this
reading behavior is to also include the text for the link in the title
attribute as title="How-To: training guides and tutorials'
In every other scenario I have tried here the contents in the title
attribute is read.
Despite some questionable reading behaviors such as this, all of the screen
reader developers that I am aware of are working to process and read
standards compliant HTML pages correctly. JAWS is now up to version 4.51 and
has made significant improvements in this area over the last year or
so. For a list of the version 4.51 fixes and enhancements, go to
http://www.freedomscientific.com/fs_downloads/DL_JAWS451.asp. From my
testing, I believe that they have now made some improvements to the accurate
processing and reading of data tables in this version.
As I am sure you do as well, I often encounter clients who say, "we are
going to buy a copy of JAWS" or whatever self voicing browser to test the
reading of web pages. The reality is that applications such as JAWS are
becoming more complex with added functionality. Because of this, developers
may spend countless hours trying to figure out why some content on a
standards compliant page isn't being read correctly. Developers who are also
not good users cannot possibly be expected to know these products at the
level required to determine when the issue is actually with the screen
reader.
Although I haven't added them all up, there have to be over 100 selectable
options for HTML processing/reading in this latest version of JAWS. Changing
these in any number of combinations will impact what HTML content is being
read to the user. As a consequence, one can quickly become overwhelmed with
why things are not working as expected if they have not kept track of these
program configuration changes.
<end quote>
My (Paul's) last little comment:
I appreciate the extra information. I am personally not a regular screen
reader user, and although I frequently test with screen readers and try to
keep up with the advances that they make, I purposely leave my screen reader
settings in the default setting because I don't want to plan my techniques
for only the more advanced screen reader users. Many screen reader users
aren't familiar with the extra settings and options. To the extent possible,
I like to try to make things work for screen readers in the default setting.
However, it is also true that you have to know how to use a screen reader in
order to test for true screen reader accessibility. Many developers have
complained about the inaccessibility of their tables or forms simply because
they weren't using the screen reader properly (i.e. you have to go into
table reading mode and forms mode). It's always best to have the opinion of
a regular screen reader user who knows the program's options.
Paul Bohman
Technology Coordinator
WebAIM (Web Accessibility in Mind)
www.webaim.org
Center for Persons with Disabilities
www.cpd.usu.edu
Utah State University
www.usu.edu
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*Register now*
WebAIM's Online Web Accessibility Training Event 2003
at www.webaim.org/training2003/
Dates: March 31-April 18
This event offers invaluable instruction and resources for developers,
managers/administrators, and accessibility trainers. Be a part of it!
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From: Leo Smith
Date: Thu, Mar 06 2003 2:34PM
Subject: CSS only sites
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Someone on the list recently asked about real-life CSS only sites:
Here is one I just found, with what seems to be complete
separation of content from presentation, *and* very limited CSS for
NS4 - just let the structure take care of presentation in that
browser. It also seems to be coded accessibly, and the site does
offer some good books ;)
http://www.glasshaus.com/
best,
Leo.
Leo Smith
Web Designer/Developer
USM Office of Publications and Marketing
University of Southern Maine
207-780-4774
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From: Anitra Pavka
Date: Thu, Mar 06 2003 2:55PM
Subject: Re: CSS only sites
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Leo Smith wrote:
> Someone on the list recently asked about real-life CSS only sites:
I don't think this was mentioned earlier. There's an entire archive
of sites that use CSS-only for layout. Some sites use relative
positioning, but (as I recall) many use absolute positioning.
http://www.meryl.net/css/index.html
- Anitra Pavka
Web developer - www.accesskansas.org
Web accessibility advocate - www.anitrapavka.com
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From: Leo Smith
Date: Fri, Mar 07 2003 2:44PM
Subject: Re: CSS only sites
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<originalposting>Someone on the list recently asked about real-life
CSS only sites:</originalposting>
<reply>I don't think this was mentioned earlier. There's an entire
archive of sites that use CSS-only for layout. Some sites use relative
positioning, but (as I recall) many use absolute positioning.
http://www.meryl.net/css/index.html<;/reply>
I took a look through some recent archives, and the inquiry was in
relation to relatively positioned CSS sites.
www.glasshaus.com seems to mainly use absolute positioning. I
do think that it is a great example, however, of another commercial
site following the design ethic of separating structure from
presentation. Such a site can lend itself very well to accessibility,
both in the case of situational limitations (hardware, software) and
functional limitations such as blindness.
Best,
Leo.
Leo Smith
Web Designer/Developer
USM Office of Publications and Marketing
University of Southern Maine
207-780-4774
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From: Big John
Date: Fri, Mar 07 2003 6:58PM
Subject: Re: CSS only sites
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Leo Smith wrote:
> I took a look through some recent archives, and the inquiry was in
> relation to relatively positioned CSS sites.
>
> www.glasshaus.com seems to mainly use absolute positioning.
That's right. In fact, relative positioning is not really intended
to be used for major layout purposes. Layoutwise, they're just
static, flowed elements that can be offset from their original
flowed positions. When they are, they leave behind empty 'holes'.
Their true function is as flowed elements that serve as positioned
'bases' for absolutely positioned child elements. Relative elements
are 'bridges' between the world of flowed elements, and 'absolute',
coordinate controlled elements, which is why they are called
'relative'.
Big John
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