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Thread: Hiding a link from visual browsers only

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Number of posts in this thread: 13 (In chronological order)

From: Maximillian Schwanekamp
Date: Wed, Jun 09 2004 11:28PM
Subject: Hiding a link from visual browsers only
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Hey WebAIM list,

I have a "skip nav" link that I want to hide
from visual browsers. Will the following rule still result in the link
being read aloud by screen readers?
a#skipnav {
display: block; position:
absolute;
left: -999px; top:
-999px;
}

I am
inclined to think so from an aging article from Joe Clark on A List Apart, but
was hoping for confirmation of this here.
<SPAN
class=576362205-10062004>
<SPAN
class=576362205-10062004>TIA,

<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif">Maximillian
Von Schwanekamp
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif">Dynamic
Websites and E-Commerce
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif"><A
href="http://www.neptunewebworks.com/">NeptuneWebworks.com
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif">voice:
541-302-1438
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif">fax:
208-730-6504

From: Glenda
Date: Wed, Jun 09 2004 11:41PM
Subject: Re: Hiding a link from visual browsers only
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<FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#800080>question: by making the sip nav invisible, how would that affect
users using the keyboard to navigate a page? Just curious.
Cheers,
<FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#800080>Glenda
<FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#800080>Soaring Eagle Communications

<FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----From: Anaxamaxan
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]Sent: Wednesday, June 09,
2004 10:28 PMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject: [WebAIM]
Hiding a link from visual browsers only
Hey WebAIM list,

I have a "skip nav" link that I want to
hide from visual browsers. Will the following rule still result in the
link being read aloud by screen readers?
a#skipnav {
display: block;
position: absolute;
left: -999px; top:
-999px;
}

I am
inclined to think so from an aging article from Joe Clark on A List Apart, but
was hoping for confirmation of this here.
<SPAN
class=576362205-10062004>
<SPAN
class=576362205-10062004>TIA,

<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif">Maximillian
Von Schwanekamp
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif">Dynamic
Websites and E-Commerce
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif"><A
href="http://www.neptunewebworks.com/">NeptuneWebworks.com
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif">voice:
541-302-1438
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif">fax:
208-730-6504

From: Chris Heilmann
Date: Thu, Jun 10 2004 12:33AM
Subject: Re: Hiding a link from visual browsers only
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> Hey WebAIM list,
>
> I have a "skip nav" link that I want to hide from visual browsers. Will
>the following rule still result in the link being read aloud by screen
>readers?
> a#skipnav {
> display: block; position: absolute;
> left: -999px; top: -999px;
> }
>
>
>
Yes it does, however left is enough.
http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=ScreenreaderVisibility

glenda wrote:

question: by making the sip nav invisible, how would that affect users using
the keyboard to navigate a page? Just curious.

It does affect them insofar as they will not see it or be able to reach it. That's why the aforementioned Joe Clark actually advocates _against_ hiding skip links. Skip links only are necessary when the flow of content is amiss, if you have your navigation _after_ the main content in the page source and you use CSS to position it visually before it, you don't need them. You can use a hover style or an active style to show the link when it is active, but that is IMHO a bit dodgy.

HTH
Chris

From: Maximillian Schwanekamp
Date: Thu, Jun 10 2004 1:52AM
Subject: Re: Hiding a link from visual browsers only
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>Skip links only are necessary when the flow of content is amiss,
>if you have your navigation _after_ the main content in the page
>source and you use CSS to position it visually before it, you don't need
them.

Ah, thanks for the reminder! I had forgotten to place the navigation after
the content. My skip nav is indeed redundant, though the question was still
valid since I have now changed it to a "jump to content" link (still hidden
with left:-999px), though rather unnecessary except for text-only browsers
perhaps. Thanks again.

Maximillian Von Schwanekamp
Dynamic Websites and E-Commerce
www.NeptuneWebworks.com
voice: 541-302-1438
fax: 208-730-6504

From: Simon Jessey
Date: Thu, Jun 10 2004 5:33AM
Subject: Re: Hiding a link from visual browsers only
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----- Original Message -----
From: "lists38" <;<A
href="mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = "><FONT face=Arial
size=2> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >;
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hiding a link from visual
browsers only

>; >; I have a
"skip nav" link that I want to hide from visual browsers. Will>;
>;the following rule still result in the link being read aloud by
screen>; >;readers?>; >; a#skipnav {>;
>; display: block; position: absolute;>;
>; left: -999px; top: -999px;>; >;
}

I use:

text-indent:
-3000px

<FONT
face="Courier New">
Simon
Jessey----------------------------------mail: <A
href="mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = "> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = : <A
href="http://jessey.net/blog/">http://jessey.net/blog/work: <A
href="http://keystonewebsites.com/">http://keystonewebsites.com/

From: Jon Gunderson
Date: Thu, Jun 10 2004 6:25AM
Subject: Re: Hiding a link from visual browsers only
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Skip navigaton is also useful to people with physical
diabilities who use the keyboard. There is no reason to hide
a skip navigation link.

Jon


---- Original message ----
>Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 22:27:33 -0700
>From: "Anaxamaxan"
>Subject: [WebAIM] Hiding a link from visual browsers only
>To: "WebAIM Discussion List"
>
> Hey WebAIM list,
>
> I have a "skip nav" link that I want to hide from
> visual browsers. Will the following rule still
> result in the link being read aloud by screen
> readers?
> a#skipnav {
> display: block; position: absolute;
> left: -999px; top: -999px;
> }
>
> I am inclined to think so from an aging article from
> Joe Clark on A List Apart, but was hoping for
> confirmation of this here.
>
> TIA,
>
> Maximillian Von Schwanekamp
> Dynamic Websites and E-Commerce
> NeptuneWebworks.com
> voice: 541-302-1438
> fax: 208-730-6504
>
Jon Gunderson, Ph.D., ATP
Coordinator of Assistive Communication and Information Technology
Division of Rehabilitation - Education Services
MC-574
College of Applied Life Studies
University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign
1207 S. Oak Street, Champaign, IL 61820

Voice: (217) 244-5870
Fax: (217) 333-0248

E-mail: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

WWW: http://cita.rehab.uiuc.edu/
WWW: http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~jongund

From: Derek Featherstone
Date: Thu, Jun 10 2004 6:49AM
Subject: Re: Hiding a link from visual browsers only
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jongund only wrote:
> Skip navigaton is also useful to people with physical
> diabilities who use the keyboard.

And equally as useful to those without physical disabilities who happen to
use the keyboard... ;)

Cheers,
Derek.
--
Derek Featherstone = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
phone: 613.599.9784; toll-free: 1.866.932.4878 (North America)
Web Accessibility Specialist / Co-founder of WATS.ca
Web Accessibility Testing and Services http://www.wats.ca

From: Paul Cowan
Date: Thu, Jun 10 2004 7:28AM
Subject: Re: Hiding a link from visual browsers only
← Previous message | Next message →

has anyone any good links or tutorials for skip navigation?



= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =





>From: "feather"
>Reply-To: "WebAIM Discussion List"
>To: "WebAIM Discussion List"
>Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hiding a link from visual browsers only
>Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 08:44:11 -0400
>
>
>jongund only wrote:
> > Skip navigaton is also useful to people with physical
> > diabilities who use the keyboard.
>
>And equally as useful to those without physical disabilities who happen to
>use the keyboard... ;)
>
>Cheers,
>Derek.
>--
>Derek Featherstone = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>phone: 613.599.9784; toll-free: 1.866.932.4878 (North America)
>Web Accessibility Specialist / Co-founder of WATS.ca
>Web Accessibility Testing and Services http://www.wats.ca
>
>----
>To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>

From: Chris Heilmann
Date: Thu, Jun 10 2004 7:33AM
Subject: Re: Hiding a link from visual browsers only
← Previous message | Next message →


>
> has anyone any good links or tutorials for skip navigation?

http://www.hicksdesign.co.uk/articles/css/skip_navigation_links/index.php

--
Chris Heilmann
The mighty pen: http://icant.co.uk/
Learn to let go! http://ltlg.icant.co.uk
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/

From: Jon Gunderson
Date: Thu, Jun 10 2004 7:54AM
Subject: Re: Hiding a link from visual browsers only
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Here is a short tutorial of the issues related to navigation bars:
http://cita.rehab.uiuc.edu/courses/2004-02-REHAB711NC/lec06/slide18.html

Here are some examples:

http://ncpad.rehab.uiuc.edu

http://www.rehab.uiuc.edu/new

In addition to skipping the navigation bar, MAP should be used
to contain the collection of navigation bar links and header
should be used to indicate the main topics. Hopefully the
wide spread use of MAP and Headers (H1-H6) will eliminate the
"skip nav" link.

Some free tools that extend IE and Mozilla to implement header
and MAP navigation can be found at:

http://cita.rehab.uiuc.edu/software/ieaccessible
http://cita.rehab.uiuc.edu/software/mozilla

Jon




---- Original message ----
>Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:27:23 +0200 (CEST)
>From: "lists38"
>Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hiding a link from visual browsers only
>To: "WebAIM Discussion List"
>
>
>
>>
>> has anyone any good links or tutorials for skip navigation?
>
>http://www.hicksdesign.co.uk/articles/css/skip_navigation_links/index.php
>
>--
>Chris Heilmann
>The mighty pen: http://icant.co.uk/
>Learn to let go! http://ltlg.icant.co.uk
>Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/
>
>----
>To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit
http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
Jon Gunderson, Ph.D., ATP
Coordinator of Assistive Communication and Information Technology
Division of Rehabilitation - Education Services
MC-574
College of Applied Life Studies
University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign
1207 S. Oak Street, Champaign, IL 61820

Voice: (217) 244-5870
Fax: (217) 333-0248

E-mail: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

WWW: http://cita.rehab.uiuc.edu/
WWW: http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~jongund

From: julian.rickards@ndm.gov.on.ca
Date: Thu, Jun 10 2004 7:58AM
Subject: Re: Hiding a link from visual browsers only
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Only recently have I seen reference to Map in relation to navbars - can you
elucidate?

---------------------------------------------------------
Julian Rickards
Digital Publications Distribution Coordinator
Publications Services Section
Ontario Ministry of Northern Development and Mines
Phone: (705) 670-5608
Fax: (705) 670-5690

From: Jon Gunderson
Date: Thu, Jun 10 2004 8:06AM
Subject: Re: Hiding a link from visual browsers only
← Previous message | Next message →

There is a preoccupation with Section 508 "Skip Navigation".
But what we really want is the markup to reflect structure.
So marking up main topics with headers and collections of
related links with MAP will allow for advanced navigation
featues to be implemented to not only skip over navigation
bars, but go to navigation bars.

WCAG mentions skip navigation in its techniques document.

Some implementations of header and MAP navigation techniques
can be found at:

http://cita.rehab.uiuc.edu/software/ieaccessible
http://cita.rehab.uiuc.edu/software/mozilla

Jon


---- Original message ----
>Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 09:56:25 -0400
>From: "julian.rickards"
>Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hiding a link from visual browsers only
>To: "WebAIM Discussion List"
>
>
>Only recently have I seen reference to Map in relation to
navbars - can you
>elucidate?
>
>---------------------------------------------------------
>Julian Rickards
>Digital Publications Distribution Coordinator
>Publications Services Section
>Ontario Ministry of Northern Development and Mines
>Phone: (705) 670-5608
>Fax: (705) 670-5690
>
>----
>To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit
http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
Jon Gunderson, Ph.D., ATP
Coordinator of Assistive Communication and Information Technology
Division of Rehabilitation - Education Services
MC-574
College of Applied Life Studies
University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign
1207 S. Oak Street, Champaign, IL 61820

Voice: (217) 244-5870
Fax: (217) 333-0248

E-mail: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

WWW: http://cita.rehab.uiuc.edu/
WWW: http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~jongund

From: Jon Gunderson
Date: Thu, Jun 10 2004 10:16AM
Subject: Re: Re: Hiding a link from visual browsers only
← Previous message | No next message

Sorry - replied to your msg by mistake :O
Wrong section - my apologies!!
Eire