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Thread: Accessible popup menus

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Number of posts in this thread: 40 (In chronological order)

From: Al Sparber
Date: Thu, Jul 28 2005 7:12PM
Subject: Accessible popup menus
No previous message | Next message →

It's come to my attention that a Mr. Thatcher or some sort claims that
our menu system is not accessible. I would like to engage this person
in this forum to get to the truth, as it were. I've prepared two test
cases and would like this gentleman to explain why the menus are not
accessible.

http://www.projectseven.com/products/menusystems/pmm/webaim/vertical.htm

Al Sparber
PVII
http://www.projectseven.com

"Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling
mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that
repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday".







From: Rob Unsworth
Date: Thu, Jul 28 2005 8:50PM
Subject: Re: Accessible popup menus
← Previous message | Next message →

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005, Al Sparber wrote:

> It's come to my attention that a Mr. Thatcher or some sort claims that our
> menu system is not accessible. I would like to engage this person in this
> forum to get to the truth, as it were. I've prepared two test cases and would
> like this gentleman to explain why the menus are not accessible.
>
> http://www.projectseven.com/products/menusystems/pmm/webaim/vertical.htm

All the following in firefox v1.0.4

Works good, untill you get to "section 4" and use "Shift Tab" to reverse
up the menu takes four tabs to get back to section 3, with no visible
submenu until you get to section 3 another 5 tabs to get back
to the section 2 sub menu which overlaps the main menu, another 2 tabs
gets section 2 with two sub menus one overlaping the main menu and one in
the correct position. another tab gets you back to section 1.

Not what I would call accessible.


--
Regards, | Lions District 201 Q3
Rob Unsworth | IT & Internet Chairman
Ipswich, Australia | http://www.lionsq3.asn.au
-------------------------------------------------





From: Al Sparber
Date: Thu, Jul 28 2005 9:13PM
Subject: Re: Accessible popup menus
← Previous message | Next message →

From: "Rob Unsworth" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 10:54 PM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessible popup menus


> On Thu, 28 Jul 2005, Al Sparber wrote:
>
>> It's come to my attention that a Mr. Thatcher or some sort claims
>> that our
>> menu system is not accessible. I would like to engage this person
>> in this
>> forum to get to the truth, as it were. I've prepared two test cases
>> and would
>> like this gentleman to explain why the menus are not accessible.
>>
>> http://www.projectseven.com/products/menusystems/pmm/webaim/vertical.htm
>
> All the following in firefox v1.0.4
>
> Works good, untill you get to "section 4" and use "Shift Tab" to
> reverse
> up the menu takes four tabs to get back to section 3, with no
> visible
> submenu until you get to section 3 another 5 tabs to get back
> to the section 2 sub menu which overlaps the main menu, another 2
> tabs
> gets section 2 with two sub menus one overlaping the main menu and
> one in
> the correct position. another tab gets you back to section 1.
>
> Not what I would call accessible.

You are joking, no doubt :-) I have to tell you, I got vertigo trying
to tab through your home page. I'm beginning to think this is simply
mass hypnosis :-) Thanks anyway, for your comments. We will continue
to proudly describe our menu system as meeting Section 508 and WAI
checkpoint 3 guidelines and all non-obsessive subjective criteria, as
well.

Next?

Al Sparber
PVII
http://www.projectseven.com

"Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling
mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that
repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday".











From: Terrence Wood
Date: Thu, Jul 28 2005 9:15PM
Subject: Re: Accessible popup menus
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Al, do you have the link for the other test case?

1. using the keyboard tabs through the entire menu, which kind of
defeats the purpose of a dropdown menu, especially if used in the real
world where the entire site map is included in the main navigation
device. Perhaps hitting the spacebar to activate a submenu would help
(despite increasing the learning curve?).

2. mouse users with poor mobility (eg parkinsons) find javascript
dropdowns incredibly difficult to use.

3. some screen readers do not announce the end of a list, so the
hierarchy of nested lists is lost. This recently came to my attention
and I can't locate the source just now (anyone else like to shed some
light?).

4. conform the menu does not work when tabbing through it backwards.

kind regards
Terrence Wood.



On 29 Jul 2005, at 1:13 PM, Al Sparber wrote:

> It's come to my attention that a Mr. Thatcher or some sort claims that
> our menu system is not accessible. I would like to engage this person
> in this forum to get to the truth, as it were. I've prepared two test
> cases and would like this gentleman to explain why the menus are not
> accessible.
>
> http://www.projectseven.com/products/menusystems/pmm/webaim/
> vertical.htm
>
> Al Sparber
> PVII
> http://www.projectseven.com
>
> "Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling
> mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that
> repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday".
>





From: Rob Unsworth
Date: Thu, Jul 28 2005 9:21PM
Subject: Re: Accessible popup menus
← Previous message | Next message →

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005, Al Sparber wrote:

> From: "Rob Unsworth" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 10:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessible popup menus


> You are joking, no doubt :-) I have to tell you, I got vertigo trying to tab
> through your home page. I'm beginning to think this is simply mass hypnosis
> :-) Thanks anyway, for your comments. We will continue to proudly describe our
> menu system as meeting Section 508 and WAI checkpoint 3 guidelines and all
> non-obsessive subjective criteria, as well.
>
> Next?
Al,
Insults will not make your test page accessible, I was in the process of
sending you some screen shots, but you are obviously would not accept what
you would be seeing.

I am not claiming the site I administer is fully accessible, I am working
on it though. When I claim it is accessible, I will welcome comments good
or bad.


--
Regards, | Lions District 201 Q3
Rob Unsworth | IT & Internet Chairman
Ipswich, Australia | http://www.lionsq3.asn.au
-------------------------------------------------





From: Al Sparber
Date: Thu, Jul 28 2005 9:38PM
Subject: Re: Accessible popup menus
← Previous message | Next message →

http://www.projectseven.com/products/menusystems/pmm/webaim/

I'll answer your other points in a few moments.


Al From: "Terrence Wood" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 11:16 PM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessible popup menus


> Hi Al, do you have the link for the other test case?
>
> 1. using the keyboard tabs through the entire menu, which kind of
> defeats the purpose of a dropdown menu, especially if used in the
> real world where the entire site map is included in the main
> navigation device. Perhaps hitting the spacebar to activate a
> submenu would help (despite increasing the learning curve?).
>
> 2. mouse users with poor mobility (eg parkinsons) find javascript
> dropdowns incredibly difficult to use.
>
> 3. some screen readers do not announce the end of a list, so the
> hierarchy of nested lists is lost. This recently came to my
> attention and I can't locate the source just now (anyone else like
> to shed some light?).
>
> 4. conform the menu does not work when tabbing through it backwards.
>
> kind regards
> Terrence Wood.
>
>
>
> On 29 Jul 2005, at 1:13 PM, Al Sparber wrote:
>
>> It's come to my attention that a Mr. Thatcher or some sort claims
>> that our menu system is not accessible. I would like to engage
>> this person in this forum to get to the truth, as it were. I've
>> prepared two test cases and would like this gentleman to explain
>> why the menus are not accessible.
>>
>> http://www.projectseven.com/products/menusystems/pmm/webaim/
>> vertical.htm
>>
>> Al Sparber
>> PVII
>> http://www.projectseven.com
>>
>> "Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling
>> mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that
>> repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday".
>>
>
>
>
>
>





From: Terrence Wood
Date: Thu, Jul 28 2005 9:57PM
Subject: Re: Accessible popup menus
← Previous message | Next message →

Al, your menu system doesn't show the sub-menu items, and leaves visual
artefacts on the screen which obscures content when tabbing backwards
through the list.

There is nothing obsessive or subject about that.

A menu system cannot be described as WAI priority three compliant until
after it is implemented because at least one of the criteria is
concerned with the link text (run your home page through a validator
for an example of how to fail at priority one for this very reason).

On a side note I personally found Ron's page quite usable with a
keyboard.


kind regards.
On 29 Jul 2005, at 3:14 PM, Al Sparber wrote:
>
> You are joking, no doubt :-) I have to tell you, I got vertigo trying
> to tab through your home page. I'm beginning to think this is simply
> mass hypnosis :-) Thanks anyway, for your comments. We will continue
> to proudly describe our menu system as meeting Section 508 and WAI
> checkpoint 3 guidelines and all non-obsessive subjective criteria, as
> well.
>





From: Al Sparber
Date: Thu, Jul 28 2005 10:10PM
Subject: Re: Accessible popup menus
← Previous message | Next message →

From: "Terrence Wood" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 11:58 PM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessible popup menus


> Al, your menu system doesn't show the sub-menu items, and leaves
> visual artefacts on the screen which obscures content when tabbing
> backwards through the list.
>
> There is nothing obsessive or subject about that.

There are no artifacts in any of our test browsers. If you are seeing
artifacts, it is a browser bug. I see no artifacts in:

Firefox (Windows and Mac)
Opera (Windows and Mac)
IE (Windows and Mac)
Safari


> A menu system cannot be described as WAI priority three compliant
> until after it is implemented because at least one of the criteria
> is concerned with the link text (run your home page through a
> validator for an example of how to fail at priority one for this
> very reason).

This is a test case with null links.


> On a side note I personally found Ron's page quite usable with a
> keyboard.

I found it terribly confusing. I understand that people who are
regulars on this list have a certain predisposition. That is
understandable. But these are purely subjective issues. I can look at
Thatcher's page and see accessibility "features" that are only
accessible with JavaScript running.

My goal is not to get a seal of approval from an accessibility "guru".
My goal is to defend my product, and also to have some enjoyable
debates. Perhaps no one has pressed these kinds of issues before :-)

Al Sparber
PVII
http://www.projectseven.com

"Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling
mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that
repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday".





>
> kind regards.
> On 29 Jul 2005, at 3:14 PM, Al Sparber wrote:
>>
>> You are joking, no doubt :-) I have to tell you, I got vertigo
>> trying to tab through your home page. I'm beginning to think this
>> is simply mass hypnosis :-) Thanks anyway, for your comments. We
>> will continue to proudly describe our menu system as meeting
>> Section 508 and WAI checkpoint 3 guidelines and all non-obsessive
>> subjective criteria, as well.
>>
>
>
>
>
>





From: Glenda Watson Hyatt
Date: Thu, Jul 28 2005 10:11PM
Subject: RE: Accessible popup menus
← Previous message | Next message →

Am I missing something?? I seem to need to tab eleven or twelve times to
get to Section 4. That seems excesive. Is there a shortcut I'm missing?

I'm finding this thread very useful as I would like to add drop down menus
to my own site - www.webaccessibility.biz - to make the navigation more
compact. But, as a person with limited hand function, I sometimes curse
dropdowns/flyouts when using my joystick because I end up on the wrong
submenu if my hand is shaky. I end up going somewhere where I didn't want
to go. So, I'm not convinced yet I want to do that to people on my site.

I'm open to ideas if someone can show me a truly accessible method.

Cheers,
Glenda

Glenda Watson Hyatt, Principal
Soaring Eagle Communications
Accessible websites. Accessible content. Accessible solutions.
www.webaccessibility.biz


-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]On Behalf Of Al Sparber
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 8:39 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessible popup menus


http://www.projectseven.com/products/menusystems/pmm/webaim/

I'll answer your other points in a few moments.


Al From: "Terrence Wood" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 11:16 PM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessible popup menus


> Hi Al, do you have the link for the other test case?
>
> 1. using the keyboard tabs through the entire menu, which kind of
> defeats the purpose of a dropdown menu, especially if used in the
> real world where the entire site map is included in the main
> navigation device. Perhaps hitting the spacebar to activate a
> submenu would help (despite increasing the learning curve?).
>
> 2. mouse users with poor mobility (eg parkinsons) find javascript
> dropdowns incredibly difficult to use.
>
> 3. some screen readers do not announce the end of a list, so the
> hierarchy of nested lists is lost. This recently came to my
> attention and I can't locate the source just now (anyone else like
> to shed some light?).
>
> 4. conform the menu does not work when tabbing through it backwards.
>
> kind regards
> Terrence Wood.
>
>
>
> On 29 Jul 2005, at 1:13 PM, Al Sparber wrote:
>
>> It's come to my attention that a Mr. Thatcher or some sort claims
>> that our menu system is not accessible. I would like to engage
>> this person in this forum to get to the truth, as it were. I've
>> prepared two test cases and would like this gentleman to explain
>> why the menus are not accessible.
>>
>> http://www.projectseven.com/products/menusystems/pmm/webaim/
>> vertical.htm
>>
>> Al Sparber
>> PVII
>> http://www.projectseven.com
>>
>> "Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling
>> mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that
>> repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday".
>>
>
>
>
>
>






--
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Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.6/59 - Release Date: 7/27/2005

--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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From: Jim Thatcher
Date: Thu, Jul 28 2005 10:36PM
Subject: RE: Accessible popup menus
← Previous message | Next message →

This is the "A Mr. Thatcher" to whom you so blithely refer. Who is this
masked man? I developed one of the first screen readers for DOS; the first
one for the GUI on a PC. I was vice chair of the Advisory Committee that
drafted proposed standards for Section 508. I worked mostly in IBM Research,
the Math department. I retired from IBM after 37 years (I did have a hard
time holding on to a job) in 2000 and have been an accessibility consultant
ever since.

Just think about menus for a minute. Look at the IE menu. Say you wanted to
get to the Help menu item. A blind user can do that with Alt+H. With your
menu system (if it was comparable, which it is not) you would have to tab
about 234 times (I made up that number, it doesn't matter) in order to get
to help.

Yes there are degrees of accessibility. I reviewed a site yesterday in which
it was IMPOSSIBLE for a person to buy ANYTHING using only the keyboard - no
mouse. But their alt text-was OK. You can make navigation easy with Headings
markup - or you can make sure you pass automated tools and let disabled
users figure out how to use your site. So it is with the menus you promote.

The fact is that being able to get to every item is not accessibility. Being
able to get to every item in a reasonable time -close to the number of steps
required by a sighted person - that is accessibility

Jim

Accessibility Consulting: http://jimthatcher.com/
512-306-0931

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Al Sparber
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 8:14 PM
To: Webaim
Cc: pviicc
Subject: [WebAIM] Accessible popup menus

It's come to my attention that a Mr. Thatcher or some sort claims that
our menu system is not accessible. I would like to engage this person
in this forum to get to the truth, as it were. I've prepared two test
cases and would like this gentleman to explain why the menus are not
accessible.

http://www.projectseven.com/products/menusystems/pmm/webaim/vertical.htm

Al Sparber
PVII
http://www.projectseven.com

"Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling
mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that
repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday".















From: Don Hinshaw
Date: Thu, Jul 28 2005 10:37PM
Subject: Re: Accessible popup menus
← Previous message | Next message →

Glenda Watson Hyatt wrote:

>Am I missing something?? I seem to need to tab eleven or twelve times to
>get to Section 4. That seems excesive. Is there a shortcut I'm missing?
>
>I'm finding this thread very useful as I would like to add drop down menus
>to my own site - www.webaccessibility.biz - to make the navigation more
>compact. But, as a person with limited hand function, I sometimes curse
>dropdowns/flyouts when using my joystick because I end up on the wrong
>submenu if my hand is shaky. I end up going somewhere where I didn't want
>to go. So, I'm not convinced yet I want to do that to people on my site.
>
>I'm open to ideas if someone can show me a truly accessible method
>
>
>
>
I'm not sure the number of tabs is relevant to whether these menus are
accessible or not. If Section 4 is the last of a series of links you
will still have to tab that many times to reach it whether they are in
drop down menus or all visible on the page like Rob's, right?

One thing I am struggling with and I haven't heard a really clear answer
to (I was hoping that Jim would reappear since it was his comment that
started us off!) is *why* those people who consider Al's menus to be
inaccesible feel that way. The only real specific comment I have heard
is that they don't work so well when tabbed through backwards.
Admittedly I am an accessibility neophyte, but this is the first time I
have heard that issue raised.

As for Glenda's very reasonable complaint about being able to maneuver
through many drop-down type menus, this seems more an issue of the size
of the target than the technology used.

So, I'll ask again...Why do you consider these menus inaccessible?

cheers,
Don

--
Don Hinshaw
Hinshaw Design Group
http://www.hinshawdesign.com





From: Don Hinshaw
Date: Thu, Jul 28 2005 10:49PM
Subject: Re: Accessible popup menus
← Previous message | Next message →



Jim Thatcher wrote:

>The fact is that being able to get to every item is not accessibility. Being
>able to get to every item in a reasonable time -close to the number of steps
>required by a sighted person - that is accessibility
>
>
>
Hi Jim,
I'm being a little contrary here, I know, but isn't this more a question
of Information Architecture than whether or not the menus are
constructed like Al's or simply listed out where a sighted person can
see all the links? If you have 234 links you still have to tab through
them all to get to the help menu (to use your example) whether they are
nested in drop-down menus or not, right? Clearly that is an excessive
number of links.

I think I asked this question about your original response and never go
an answer, but you were saying that a better way to go is to show the
list of submenu choices on the page when you get to that page. I
understand how that makes navigating that section easier once you get
there, but I don't see how it makes it any easier to get there in the
first place.

So what is one to do? If you have a deep site, drop down menus can be a
huge affordance for non-disabled folks if used correctly...they can
greatly reduce the number of clicks necessary to get from point A to
point B.
How should we use them to not make the site intolerable for disabled users?

Don

--
Don Hinshaw
Hinshaw Design Group
510.525.2492
http://www.hinshawdesign.com





From: Rob Unsworth
Date: Thu, Jul 28 2005 11:04PM
Subject: Re: Accessible popup menus
← Previous message | Next message →

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005, Don Hinshaw wrote:

>
> One thing I am struggling with and I haven't heard a really clear answer to (I
> was hoping that Jim would reappear since it was his comment that started us
> off!) is *why* those people who consider Al's menus to be inaccesible feel
> that way. The only real specific comment I have heard is that they don't work
> so well when tabbed through backwards. Admittedly I am an accessibility
> neophyte, but this is the first time I have heard that issue raised.
>
> As for Glenda's very reasonable complaint about being able to maneuver through
> many drop-down type menus, this seems more an issue of the size of the target
> than the technology used.
>
> So, I'll ask again...Why do you consider these menus inaccessible?

<scenario>
If you run a mouse down a menus, get to the bottom checking what is in the
sub-menus and then decide you want a item a couple of items above where
you stopped at the bottom item, and the menu prevents your mouse from
going back up the menu or when it does it produces unpredictible results.
</scenario>

If you find that scenario as unacceptable. Why would you consider a menu
accessible that produces that same result when access is via keyboard.


--
Regards, | Lions District 201 Q3
Rob Unsworth | IT & Internet Chairman
Ipswich, Australia | http://www.lionsq3.asn.au
-------------------------------------------------





From: Glenda Watson Hyatt
Date: Thu, Jul 28 2005 11:11PM
Subject: RE: Accessible popup menus
← Previous message | Next message →

Don Wrote:

>I'm not sure the number of tabs is relevant to whether these menus are
>accessible or not. If Section 4 is the last of a series of links you
>will still have to tab that many times to reach it whether they are in
>drop down menus or all visible on the page like Rob's, right?

I am thinking: not necessarily. Say Section 2 is Services with a submenu.
If that submenu was instead on a separate services page, then I wouldn't
have to tab through Section 2 submenu to get to Section 3. I realize that
technique is probably faulty for other reasons, which I'm sure others will
quickly point out to me. What would be really cool is if I could navigate
these menus using my arrow keys. That would save a lot of tabbing. Doing a
quick test, this is possible with the Windows start menu. Has anyone done
this on a site?

>As for Glenda's very reasonable complaint about being able to maneuver
t>hrough many drop-down type menus, this seems more an issue of the size
>of the target than the technology used.

Not sure if it's only the target size, but also how how the menu disappears
when I move off the list area when using my joystick - if that makes senses.
I have the same problem with the Windows start menu. Sometimes I need to
try two or three times. I wish there was a way to "lock" the submenu once
chosen.

>So, I'll ask again...Why do you consider these menus inaccessible?

Does that help?

Cheers,
Glenda

Glenda Watson Hyatt, Principal
Soaring Eagle Communications
Accessible websites. Accessible content. Accessible solutions.
www.webaccessibility.biz
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From: Al Sparber
Date: Thu, Jul 28 2005 11:37PM
Subject: Re: Accessible popup menus
← Previous message | Next message →

From: "Don Hinshaw" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >

>
> One thing I am struggling with and I haven't heard a really clear
> answer to (I was hoping that Jim would reappear since it was his
> comment that started us off!) is *why* those people who consider
> Al's menus to be inaccesible feel that way. The only real specific
> comment I have heard is that they don't work so well when tabbed
> through backwards. Admittedly I am an accessibility neophyte, but
> this is the first time I have heard that issue raised.

There are various "communities" of experts in this business. CSS,
Standards, and Accessibility. It's human nature for those who are
considered pundits or gurus to focus on minor points as others would
on major points. I honestly do find sites like Thatcher's extremely
difficult to navigate - from a logics perspective. The saving grace is
that the site is so small. If his site were as large as ours, and we
chose to deploy navigation as he does, we would not be in business
very long. I'm not known in these parts, but I do have a reputation in
certain web development circles as a voice of reason. I admit I baited
this list, but I did draw attention to the debate/discussion, which
was my first objective.

With my pragmatist cap on, I can smell a zealot a mile away. A
reasonable person would approach things a bit differently. I see no
logical process to the question of "can a popup menu be accessible" to
this point. The mark of reasonable person can be measured by a ratio
of pontification to solutions. I see people here who are predisposed
to popup menus being inaccessible - in their opinions. I could solve
the entire problem in five minutes, but am totally amazed at the
approach taken here.


> As for Glenda's very reasonable complaint about being able to
> maneuver through many drop-down type menus, this seems more an issue
> of the size of the target than the technology used.

Yes. And also the size and scope of the menu. In my opinion, there are
many ways to devise a site's navigation. What many here would consider
accessible, are accessible in certain contexts - but by no means all
contexts. Many sites deploy navigation systems to draw users where
they want them to go, by exposing a minimum number of main section
links and no sub-menus. A visitor must click and load a page before
seeing further choices in that category. It's a narrow view. As one
goes the politically correct route and attempts to optimize his site
for a group of people who represent a very small group of potential
visitors, and then another small group, and others still - he risks
degrading the experience for the vast majority of his visitors.
Balance is everything. We are talking about web pages - not access to
the emergency room at your local hospital - or to the rest room in
your local restaurant. No one is going to wet his pants over a web
site's navigation system. At worst, he will simply move on. How many
will move on? That depends on the nature of the site and the
difficulties encountered.


> So, I'll ask again...Why do you consider these menus inaccessible?

I know why, but no regular here will understand :-)

The solution?

It's here and it's very simple. But to understand it, you need to be
able to extrapolate this to a real site. I don't really have time to
make a real site tonight, so this will have to do.

http://www.projectseven.com/products/menusystems/pmm/webaim/scenario2.htm

Al Sparber
PVII
http://www.projectseven.com

"Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling
mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that
repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday".






From: Rob Unsworth
Date: Thu, Jul 28 2005 11:39PM
Subject: Re: Accessible popup menus
← Previous message | Next message →

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005, Al Sparber wrote:

> > On a side note I personally found Ron's page quite usable with a
> > keyboard.
>
> I found it terribly confusing. I understand that people who are regulars on
> this list have a certain predisposition. That is understandable. But these are
> purely subjective issues. I can look at Thatcher's page and see accessibility
> "features" that are only accessible with JavaScript running.

The terribly confusing menu that Al refers to on the lionsq3 site is
accessed by a large portion of members in the 60-75yr age bracket, some of
whom have bought their first computer in the last three years. On their
first visit to the site they were not confused, in fact many told me they
had no problems at all.

> My goal is not to get a seal of approval from an accessibility "guru". My goal
> is to defend my product, and also to have some enjoyable debates. Perhaps no
> one has pressed these kinds of issues before :-)

Al, One would have to ask what you are defending your product from. You
put up a test page with a menu you claimed was accessible, as soon as this
was challenged you put up the defence barriers and attacked anyone who
criticised your test page.

As I see your test menu, using sub-menu 2.1, 2.2 and 2.3 as an example.

When you reach sub-menu 2.1 tab takes you to 2.2 which reveals
2.2.1, 2.2.2, 2.2.3. you continue tabbing untill you arrive at 2.3.

When you shift-tab to go back to 2.2 it needs so produce the same result
as tabbing from 2.1 to 2.2.

This action should also apply when shift-tabbing from section 4 to section
3.


--
Regards, | Lions District 201 Q3
Rob Unsworth | IT & Internet Chairman
Ipswich, Australia | http://www.lionsq3.asn.au
-------------------------------------------------





From: Al Sparber
Date: Thu, Jul 28 2005 11:51PM
Subject: Re: Accessible popup menus
← Previous message | Next message →

From: "Rob Unsworth" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> My goal is not to get a seal of approval from an accessibility
>> "guru". My goal
>> is to defend my product, and also to have some enjoyable debates.
>> Perhaps no
>> one has pressed these kinds of issues before :-)
>
> Al, One would have to ask what you are defending your product from.
> You
> put up a test page with a menu you claimed was accessible, as soon
> as this
> was challenged you put up the defence barriers and attacked anyone
> who
> criticised your test page.

I'm defending my product because an opinion issued by Thatcher was
posted on our public newsgroup and it claimed our menu was not
accessible. I disagree.


> As I see your test menu, using sub-menu 2.1, 2.2 and 2.3 as an
> example.
>
> When you reach sub-menu 2.1 tab takes you to 2.2 which reveals
> 2.2.1, 2.2.2, 2.2.3. you continue tabbing untill you arrive at 2.3.
>
> When you shift-tab to go back to 2.2 it needs so produce the same
> result
> as tabbing from 2.1 to 2.2.
>
> This action should also apply when shift-tabbing from section 4 to
> section
> 3.

Unfortunately, browsers are not programmed to allow that very easily.
We are using an onfocus routine to enable the sub-menus to reveal when
its parent is tabbed to. Removing that would get the behavior you are
looking for, but not the one we want.

A simple look at the number of people who have to use the keyboard (I
totally discount people who choose not to use a mouse, as they are
primarily over-zealous about something or other) paints a clear
course: Develop for the majority and provide alternate paths for the
minority. If you do it in reverse that's an opinion now, is it not?





From: Terrence Wood
Date: Fri, Jul 29 2005 12:16AM
Subject: Re: Accessible popup menus
← Previous message | Next message →

On 29 Jul 2005, at 4:11 PM, Al Sparber wrote:
> There are no artifacts in any of our test browsers. If you are seeing
> artifacts, it is a browser bug. I see no artifacts in:
>
> Firefox (Windows and Mac)
> Opera (Windows and Mac)
> IE (Windows and Mac)
> Safari

I have personally tested your product with Firefox, Safari and IE on a
Mac -- it works fine with a mouse and going tabbing forward through the
menu, the problem occurs when tabbing backwards through the menu using
a keyboard.

>> A menu system cannot be described as WAI priority three compliant
>> until after it is implemented because at least one of the criteria is
>> concerned with the link text

> This is a test case with null links.

It doesn't matter what case it is, null links still fail on the same
criteria. The point is this: it cannot be accessible until it is
applied in a real world situation because you do not control the link
text. Why not just make the claim that the code validates?

>> On a side note I personally found Ron's page quite usable with a
>> keyboard.
>
> I found it terribly confusing. I understand that people who are
> regulars on this list have a certain predisposition. That is
> understandable. But these are purely subjective issues.

Each to their own, but how about keeping your generalisations to
yourself, you sound like a bigot?

> I can look at Thatcher's page and see accessibility "features" that
> are only accessible with JavaScript running.

What is your point? You can't use javascript and accessibility in the
same sentence? Or that a web page should be exactly the same in any
browser?

> My goal is not to get a seal of approval from an accessibility "guru".
> My goal is to defend my product, and also to have some enjoyable
> debates. Perhaps no one has pressed these kinds of issues before :-)

Pressed what issues? The most you've really managed so far is to throw
around a few insults, deny your product doesn't work effectively for
people using keyboards, and demonstrate you have no interest or
understanding of accessibility issues.

I find it really interesting that you feel compelled to defend you
product in a forum where I imagine most of the members don't use DWMX.


kind regards
Terrence Wood.





From: Al Sparber
Date: Fri, Jul 29 2005 12:24AM
Subject: Re: Accessible popup menus
← Previous message | Next message →

From: "Terrence Wood" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 2:17 AM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessible popup menus


> On 29 Jul 2005, at 4:11 PM, Al Sparber wrote:
>> There are no artifacts in any of our test browsers. If you are
>> seeing artifacts, it is a browser bug. I see no artifacts in:
>>
>> Firefox (Windows and Mac)
>> Opera (Windows and Mac)
>> IE (Windows and Mac)
>> Safari
>
> I have personally tested your product with Firefox, Safari and IE on
> a Mac -- it works fine with a mouse and going tabbing forward
> through the menu, the problem occurs when tabbing backwards through
> the menu using a keyboard.

No artifacts tabbing backwards either.


>>> A menu system cannot be described as WAI priority three compliant
>>> until after it is implemented because at least one of the criteria
>>> is concerned with the link text
>
>> This is a test case with null links.
>
> It doesn't matter what case it is, null links still fail on the same
> criteria. The point is this: it cannot be accessible until it is
> applied in a real world situation because you do not control the
> link text. Why not just make the claim that the code validates?

It does validate and it does meet accessibility standards without
error. Whose real world are talking about :-)


>>> On a side note I personally found Ron's page quite usable with a
>>> keyboard.
>>
>> I found it terribly confusing. I understand that people who are
>> regulars on this list have a certain predisposition. That is
>> understandable. But these are purely subjective issues.
>
> Each to their own, but how about keeping your generalisations to
> yourself, you sound like a bigot?

Do you want to expound on that piece of slander? Sounds like a
left-wing radical kind of fallback to me.


>> I can look at Thatcher's page and see accessibility "features" that
>> are only accessible with JavaScript running.
>
> What is your point? You can't use javascript and accessibility in
> the same sentence? Or that a web page should be exactly the same in
> any browser?

No, I find accessibility issues on that page. My own interpretive and
subjective issues, which is what the pseudo-science of accessibility
really boils down to.


>> My goal is not to get a seal of approval from an accessibility
>> "guru". My goal is to defend my product, and also to have some
>> enjoyable debates. Perhaps no one has pressed these kinds of issues
>> before :-)
>
> Pressed what issues? The most you've really managed so far is to
> throw around a few insults, deny your product doesn't work
> effectively for people using keyboards, and demonstrate you have no
> interest or understanding of accessibility issues.

I understand. I'm just not an over-the-top zealot about it :-)


> I find it really interesting that you feel compelled to defend you
> product in a forum where I imagine most of the members don't use
> DWMX.

I'm not looking for customers. Thatcher's allegation was posted on my
public newsgroup and I think he's bloody wrong.

Al Sparber
PVII
http://www.projectseven.com

"Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling
mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that
repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday".






From: Terrence Wood
Date: Fri, Jul 29 2005 12:42AM
Subject: Re: Accessible popup menus
← Previous message | Next message →


On 29 Jul 2005, at 5:52 PM, Al Sparber wrote:
>
> Unfortunately, browsers are not programmed to allow that very easily.
> We are using an onfocus routine to enable the sub-menus to reveal when
> its parent is tabbed to. Removing that would get the behavior you are
> looking for, but not the one we want.
>
bawah ha ha ha!

C'mon Al, this is such a crock, we're not the newb's on the DW boards,
ever heard of the DOM? Pretty sure most the today's browsers have one.
It's a poor workman who blames his tools.

Why not add the onfocus event to fire on any link in a sub menu and add
a check for so you know whether to animate it or not?

I am interested in the source of your numbers on keyboard users,
perhaps you can share those figures with the list.

kind regards
Terrence Wood.





From: Rob Unsworth
Date: Fri, Jul 29 2005 12:49AM
Subject: Re: Accessible popup menus
← Previous message | Next message →

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005, Al Sparber wrote:

> A simple look at the number of people who have to use the keyboard (I totally
> discount people who choose not to use a mouse, as they are primarily
> over-zealous about something or other) paints a clear course: Develop for the
> majority and provide alternate paths for the minority. If you do it in reverse
> that's an opinion now, is it not?

What alternative path have you provided for those whose only access is via
keyboard?. Tabbing is now working properly. After all this is the type of
accessibility I have pointed is lacking in your menu.


--
Regards, | Lions District 201 Q3
Rob Unsworth | IT & Internet Chairman
Ipswich, Australia | http://www.lionsq3.asn.au
-------------------------------------------------





From: Terrence Wood
Date: Fri, Jul 29 2005 12:49AM
Subject: Re: Accessible popup menus
← Previous message | Next message →


On 29 Jul 2005, at 6:43 PM, Terrence Wood wrote:

> Why not add the onfocus event to fire on any link in a sub menu and
> add a check for so you know whether to animate it or not?
>
that should say "check for menu state (opened or closed)"

T.





From: Terrence Wood
Date: Fri, Jul 29 2005 12:57AM
Subject: Re: Accessible popup menus
← Previous message | Next message →


On 29 Jul 2005, at 6:25 PM, Al Sparber wrote:
>
> I'm not looking for customers. Thatcher's allegation was posted on my
> public newsgroup and I think he's bloody wrong.
>

Then address it on that forum.






From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Fri, Jul 29 2005 12:59AM
Subject: Re: Accessible popup menus
← Previous message | Next message →

> It does validate and it does meet accessibility standards without
> error. Whose real world are talking about :-)

I always thought WAI-3 is a guideline not a standard. I also thought
that it is a methodology that involves user testing?
And even if it applies to WAI-3, if it doesn't work in a real browser
environment then it is useless. WCAG2 is around the corner and there
are still a lot of inconsistencies in it. I guess as the real world
application is dependent on so many unknowns, they are guidelines, not
standards.

You can jump around in excitement and annoyance all you want, a
dropdown menu will never be accessible to all, unless it:

- Behaves the same regardless of input device and order you navigate through it
- Keeps a current state and shows me where I am on the current page
- Does not require overly elaborate hand-eye coordinatiton
- Does not depend on a fixed viewport

These are not from the guidelines but my personal user testing experiences.

Popup navigations with several levels
- Do depend on a fixed viewport size or cause scrollbars
- Have no current state and collapse on every page - unless you keep
the current section open
- Are arguably a violation of guidelines 14.3 and 13.4, as the
navigation does visibly change
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-CORE-TECHS/#navigation

I said it before in the other thread, there is just no way to please
alll with dropdowns, and it is not a programmatic issue, but one of
information architecture and of bad user agents.

In essence we offer a sitemap as the navigation, and those are two
different things. On a small site that is not that obvious, one one
encompassing 12343423 pages it is. All I need on a section is the main
navigation items and those of the section. Shortcuts to other
sub-sections are a nice to have, but might be more confusing than
helping. In some environments they may even lead to total confusion
as different sub-sections might have the same link wording as a
legal requirement (local councils).

The only option to follow WAI-3 and offer dropdown navigations seems
to be to offer them as "enhanced navigation" to be turned on and off
by the visitor.Even my AJAX idea of pulling in the sub menu items
onmouseover via JS and PHP could be triggered by a user agent that
cannot cope with it.

Multi level dropdown navigation is assuming that the visitor wants
more options than he needs without getting the chance to say no. It
is the same in some shops. Ever tried to get a "cheese sandwhich
with lettuce, tomato and no sauce" in Subway? You won't get it, as
the person behind the counter will go through all options with you
before handing you your sandwich and asking you if you want cookies
and a drink with it. Instead of getting your sandwich you answer 20
times yes or no and see your lunchbreak time tick away. They follow a
company guideline of asking you through their options the same way bad
call centres follow a flowchart no matter what your problem is. We
assume people want to navigate the whole site from every section -
they can, via the sitemap or the search, which is most likely what
they will do anyways. In the end the content of the page matters,
nobody but the developer and the tester (who hopefully are not the
same person) will use the navigation constantly. If your visitors
need to navigate all the time then your IA is messed up.

Asking the visitor what they want is never a bad idea, listening is
even better.

My favourite yesterday at Starbucks:
Me: "I'd like a Peppermint Mocha with Soy Milk please"
Clerk: "It is amazing how many people want Soy these days, why is that?`"
Me: "I have a dairy intolerrance, my body doesn't like it too much"
Clerk: "Oh, understandable then. You want cream on top?"
Me: (stunned) No, thanks
Clerk: "Alright, here you go, extra sugar, lids and cream are over there"

--
Chris Heilmann
Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/




From: Glenda Watson Hyatt
Date: Fri, Jul 29 2005 1:22AM
Subject: RE: Accessible popup menus - bottom line
← Previous message | Next message →

Although tonight's discussion has been lively, I am now more unclear as
whether pop up menus can be accessible. I'm still not sure whether I should
bother implementing them on my own site - www.webaccessibility.biz. I
welcome CONSTRUCTIVE ideas on improving /condensing the navigation.

I realize that I'm opening myself for attack, which unfortunately seems to
occur frequently here when someone asks a simple question. Hopefully that
will be restrained to a minimum as I am sincerely trying to learn the best
practice with this particular issue.

Cheers,
Glenda

Glenda Watson Hyatt, Principal
Soaring Eagle Communications
Accessible websites. Accessible content. Accessible solutions.
www.webaccessibility.biz

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.6/59 - Release Date: 7/27/2005





From: Rob Unsworth
Date: Fri, Jul 29 2005 1:55AM
Subject: Re: Accessible popup menus
← Previous message | Next message →

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005, Al Sparber wrote:

> I'm not looking for customers. Thatcher's allegation was posted on my public
> newsgroup and I think he's bloody wrong.

I think Jim Thacher is right. I just went and had a look at the project
seven home page,

Considering Al's critique of my home page and having viewed his from the
perspective of someone limited to keyboard access. It is my opinion that
Al has overlooked a key element in making a page/menu accessible, logic.

My brief tour of http://www.projectseven.com
It took 31 (thirty one) tabs to get to the first menu item (there is no
skip to navigation). To get from the third item "Products" to the fourth
item "Support and Info" took 28 (twenty eight) tabs.

Al started this thread to defend his menu system because of something Jim
Thatcher said. I am at a loss to see what there is to defend.


--
Regards, | Lions District 201 Q3
Rob Unsworth | IT & Internet Chairman
Ipswich, Australia | http://www.lionsq3.asn.au
-------------------------------------------------





From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Fri, Jul 29 2005 3:03AM
Subject: Re: Accessible popup menus - bottom line
← Previous message | Next message →

> Although tonight's discussion has been lively, I am now more unclear as
> whether pop up menus can be accessible. I'm still not sure whether I should
> bother implementing them on my own site - www.webaccessibility.biz. I
> welcome CONSTRUCTIVE ideas on improving /condensing the navigation.

Look at the size of your sitemap:
http://www.webaccessibility.biz/Sitemap.htm

What is there to condense ? :-) You did well as it is. The only issue
is that the sitemap and the navigation have a different order, which
is a bit odd.

Navigation is the process of travelling through information. The
amount of information defines the nature of the technical aids we use
to navigate - a list, tabs, nested tabs, dropdowns, a to z, directory
of services and and and

In many cases a popup navigation or any other dynamic form of
navigation is not used to help the visitors but to make the site
snazzier, and that is not what navigation is for. Visitors will find
you and stay on your site for content, not for a cool navigation.

Improvements:
- Id try to make the main navigation more obvious by styling it
differently and mark it up as a list rather than disjointed links with
| in between them, this will also allow you to add sub sections should
the site grow in the future.
- The logo is too big for my taste, and could use a cleanup (it has
GIF dithering artifacts all over) You are using about 200 pixels of
valuable screen estate for your logo, space people have to scroll
through on screen magnifiers.



--
Chris Heilmann
Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/




From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Fri, Jul 29 2005 7:31AM
Subject: RE: Accessible popup menus
← Previous message | Next message →

> No artifacts tabbing backwards either.

Can you clarify what you think an artifact is? When I tab backwards in
Safari, Firefox(Win), and IE(Win) there are times where there are 2
submenus open at the same time.

Whether you think this is an artifact or not, it is clearly not correct
behavior for a menu. I won't characterize this as a substantial
accessibility issue, rather it just seems slightly broken.

> It does validate and it does meet accessibility standards
> without error. Whose real world are talking about :-)

I like your menu, but it is not beyond reproach. I have yet to see an
HTML menu that is. Sometimes this is due to the level of support for
this kind of thing by the user agents, sometimes it is the lack of
specific semantics for this in HTML, sometimes it is just that the
dynamic menu doesn't do some things right, and sometimes all three.

In your menu, the loss of visual focus when tabbing backwards, whether
due to the user agent or the menu scripting, represents a substantial
usability issue and it also runs afoul of 1194.21(c) (A well-defined
on-screen indication of the current focus shall be provided that moves
among interactive interface elements as the input focus changes.).
Whether you want to argue that 1194.21 doesn't apply to web pages or not
is up to you, but this is a problem for users. People on the list have
highlighted other issues for you and are generally happy to provide
advice if you are willing to listen.

> No, I find accessibility issues on that page. My own interpretive and
> subjective issues, which is what the pseudo-science of accessibility
> really boils down to.

Jim would, I'm sure, be willing to discuss the rationale behind any
decision made on his site. I'm not sure that a discussion of his site
or any other has any bearing on the accessibility of your product.

AWK

Andrew Kirkpatrick
Principal Accessibility Engineer, Macromedia
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =





From: Thomas Jedenfelt
Date: Fri, Jul 29 2005 8:04AM
Subject: Re: Accessible popup menus
← Previous message | Next message →

Al,

The Projectseven.com's Menu system caught my interest.

Have there been tests done (with ordinary users) that can verify that the Menu system is perceived as accessible by the users?

Also, what people have verified that the Menu system meets the guidelines of WCAG and Section 508?

Regards,
Thomas Jedenfelt

--

Surf the Web in a faster, safer and easier way:
Download Opera 8 at http://www.opera.com

Powered by Outblaze




From: John Foliot - WATS.ca
Date: Fri, Jul 29 2005 8:15AM
Subject: RE: Accessible popup menus
← Previous message | Next message →

Al Sparber wrote:

>>> My goal is not to get a seal of approval from an accessibility
>>> "guru". My goal is to defend my product, and also to have some
>>> enjoyable debates. Perhaps no one has pressed these kinds of issues
>>> before :-)
>>
>> Al, One would have to ask what you are defending your product from.
>> You put up a test page with a menu you claimed was accessible, as
>> soon as this was challenged you put up the defence barriers and
>> attacked anyone who criticised your test page.
>
> I'm defending my product because an opinion issued by Thatcher was
> posted on our public newsgroup and it claimed our menu was not
> accessible. I disagree.

...and some (many?) on this list disagree with you.

"Mr." Thatcher is an established, internationally-acknowledged web
accessibility expert and author, who has research, time and experience
on his side. He has opinions and expertese based upon real world work
in this field. His contributions to the "art" of web accessibility need
no defence, and your pompus and ignorant tone paints you as a jerk -
whether you really are or not. Tone down the rhetoric and listen to
what the list members are saying.

<SNIP>
> I'm not known in these parts, but I do have a reputation in
> certain web development circles as a voice of reason.
</SNIP>

Sadly, your beligerent and superior tone refutes this statement. Jim
Thatcher has a reputation in certain circles as being a pioneer in this
field - something you fail to accept. And if we're gonna throw
"reputations" around, I might note (humbly) that I too have a bit of a
reputation in this field, as a regular contributor to this and others,
as co-founder of WATS.ca (an oft referrenced resource), and a big fan of
google (http://www.google.com/search?q=web+accessibility+specialist) [as
much a sign of our expertise in SEO as well as web accessibility]

>
> A simple look at the number of people who have to use the keyboard (I
> totally discount people who choose not to use a mouse, as they are
> primarily over-zealous about something or other) paints a clear
> course: Develop for the majority and provide alternate paths for the
> minority. If you do it in reverse that's an opinion now, is it not?

"All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others."
George Orwell (1903 - 1950), "Animal Farm"

Thanks for your "opinion" Sparber...

I get a very real sense that you've developed something (your
"product") which you now seek to have 'validated' by real world web
accessibility proponents (why else mysteriously show up on this list and
post your example?). When the experts point out issues with your
solution you take to insult and a superior tone and chastize those that
seek to offer their thoughts and opinions. If these opinions are not
what you are seeking, why did you ask in the first place?

There are a number of issues with *your* drop-down menu system (I sent
you a screen capture off list showing the rendering issue), and as
others have pointed out, there are also issues beyond "technical" and
"technique" with all flyout type menus such as yours - the tabbing issue
is now well discussed on this list. Having a nested list with 44
different list items links is going to be an issue for many users -
flyout (compacted) menus or not. It's information overload (too many
initial choices) that can affect users with cognative impairments, and
is covered by WCAG Guideline Priority 2 - 12.3 "Divide large blocks of
information into more manageable groups where natural and appropriate".
If you think about it, using compacted (flyout) menus such as yours
acknolwedge this very point - this is why you are compacting the list in
the first place, no? Perhaps a better method is to re-think the
navigation process into better "streams", rather than seek to provide
*all* the links every time on every page - (go back, re-read that
Guideline 12.3).

Your "technique" appears to follow current guidelines and best practises
- so that is a positive. But to claim that it "conforms" to Section 508
and WCAG AAA guidelines or standards misses another real point that has
been brought up; "if" the CSS method is properly integrated into a
larger whole. What if somebody took your code, but used it with a fixed
font size for rendering purposes (so that it "displays" according to
some graphic designers "vision"). What then? Fail... So remember and
understand - accessibility needs to be judged both in context and as a
whole; <img src="..." alt="button"> is technically valid, but practicly
useless as the alternative text means nothing to those users that would
require that information. Consider as well: what if this codeblock
(complete with all 44 links, such as at projectseven.com) is placed at
the "top" of your source code - minus a "skip nav" link or equivelant...
Is it still "accessible"? Many (most) would argue no, and it certainly
would not pass muster under Section 508.

A quick review of your own site (http://www.projectseven.com/index.htm)
finds your navigation block at the end of your source code... Yet there
is no "quick" way for text only or speech browsers to quickly access
this code block... Instead the page must be "read" to the end before we
reach the nav block. This is an accessibility issue! (and BTW, fails
WAI AAA Status (WCAG Priority 2 - 9.5 "Provide keyboard shortcuts to
important links (including those in client-side image maps), form
controls, and groups of form controls.") - plus without the proscribed
"Skip Nav" link you fail Section 508 (

From: Al Sparber
Date: Fri, Jul 29 2005 8:44AM
Subject: Re: Accessible popup menus
← Previous message | Next message →

From: "Terrence Wood" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 2:43 AM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessible popup menus


>
> On 29 Jul 2005, at 5:52 PM, Al Sparber wrote:
>>
>> Unfortunately, browsers are not programmed to allow that very
>> easily. We are using an onfocus routine to enable the sub-menus to
>> reveal when its parent is tabbed to. Removing that would get the
>> behavior you are looking for, but not the one we want.
>>
> bawah ha ha ha!
>
> C'mon Al, this is such a crock, we're not the newb's on the DW
> boards, ever heard of the DOM? Pretty sure most the today's browsers
> have one. It's a poor workman who blames his tools.

> Why not add the onfocus event to fire on any link in a sub menu and
> add a check for so you know whether to animate it or not?
>
> I am interested in the source of your numbers on keyboard users,
> perhaps you can share those figures with the list.
>
> kind regards
> Terrence Wood.

LOL, it's iteresting that you won't expend the energy to alter your
canned signature for someone you have obvious disdain for :-)





From: Al Sparber
Date: Fri, Jul 29 2005 8:44AM
Subject: Re: Accessible popup menus
← Previous message | Next message →

From: "Rob Unsworth" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 2:53 AM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessible popup menus


> On Fri, 29 Jul 2005, Al Sparber wrote:
>
>> A simple look at the number of people who have to use the keyboard
>> (I totally
>> discount people who choose not to use a mouse, as they are
>> primarily
>> over-zealous about something or other) paints a clear course:
>> Develop for the
>> majority and provide alternate paths for the minority. If you do it
>> in reverse
>> that's an opinion now, is it not?
>
> What alternative path have you provided for those whose only access
> is via
> keyboard?. Tabbing is now working properly. After all this is the
> type of
> accessibility I have pointed is lacking in your menu.

Huh?





From: Al Sparber
Date: Fri, Jul 29 2005 8:46AM
Subject: Re: Accessible popup menus
← Previous message | Next message →

From: "Terrence Wood" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 2:58 AM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessible popup menus


>
> On 29 Jul 2005, at 6:25 PM, Al Sparber wrote:
>>
>> I'm not looking for customers. Thatcher's allegation was posted on
>> my public newsgroup and I think he's bloody wrong.
>>
>
> Then address it on that forum.

If it comes up, I will. I'm just gathering evidence of fanaticism.





From: Al Sparber
Date: Fri, Jul 29 2005 8:49AM
Subject: Re: Accessible popup menus - bottom line
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenda Watson Hyatt" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:23 AM
Subject: RE: [WebAIM] Accessible popup menus - bottom line


> Although tonight's discussion has been lively, I am now more
> unclear as
> whether pop up menus can be accessible. I'm still not sure whether
> I should
> bother implementing them on my own site - www.webaccessibility.biz.
> I
> welcome CONSTRUCTIVE ideas on improving /condensing the navigation.
>
> I realize that I'm opening myself for attack, which unfortunately
> seems to
> occur frequently here when someone asks a simple question.
> Hopefully that
> will be restrained to a minimum as I am sincerely trying to learn
> the best
> practice with this particular issue.

I don't think you will get a straight solution here. It will always be
tainted with a bit of preaching. Accessibility is not rocket science -
or at least it shouldn't be. This list reminds me of many of the
standards and CSS lists. You fall in to the party line or you get
roasted.

--
Al Sparber





From: Al Sparber
Date: Fri, Jul 29 2005 8:51AM
Subject: Re: Accessible popup menus
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From: "Rob Unsworth" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 4:00 AM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessible popup menus


> On Fri, 29 Jul 2005, Al Sparber wrote:
>
>> I'm not looking for customers. Thatcher's allegation was posted on
>> my public
>> newsgroup and I think he's bloody wrong.
>
> I think Jim Thacher is right. I just went and had a look at the
> project
> seven home page,
>
> Considering Al's critique of my home page and having viewed his from
> the
> perspective of someone limited to keyboard access. It is my opinion
> that
> Al has overlooked a key element in making a page/menu accessible,
> logic.
>
> My brief tour of http://www.projectseven.com
> It took 31 (thirty one) tabs to get to the first menu item (there is
> no
> skip to navigation). To get from the third item "Products" to the
> fourth
> item "Support and Info" took 28 (twenty eight) tabs.
>
> Al started this thread to defend his menu system because of
> something Jim
> Thatcher said. I am at a loss to see what there is to defend.

That's sadly humorous.





From: Tim Beadle
Date: Fri, Jul 29 2005 8:53AM
Subject: Re: Accessible popup menus
← Previous message | Next message →

On 7/29/05, Al Sparber < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> If it comes up, I will. I'm just gathering evidence of fanaticism.

I hate to weigh in (no - I really do!) but it's not fanaticism, it's
clue: something you seem to sorely lack.

There are people here who, if approached in the right way (clue: not
the way you have), would have gladly and freely given their time and
expertise to help you make your product (which you don't give freely)
better.

As it is, you go around insulting people who know more about
accessibility than I suspect you ever will - all for some menus that,
to be honest, I've seen done just as well if not better, but without
the $99 price tag.




From: Austin, Darrel
Date: Fri, Jul 29 2005 9:09AM
Subject: RE: Accessible popup menus
← Previous message | Next message →

> It's come to my attention that a Mr. Thatcher or some sort
> claims that our menu system is not accessible. I would like
> to engage this person in this forum to get to the truth, as
> it were. I've prepared two test cases and would like this
> gentleman to explain why the menus are not accessible.

Al, we've been through this before? ;o)

I think most folks on here would agree that PVII's fly-out menus are about
as accessible as anyone can make them. PVII has done a great job on this
product and if one has to use fly-out menus, this is the one to go with.

The issue isn't YOUR product. The issue is the concept of fly-out menus in
general. They are (usually) simply not as accessible as a menuing system
that does NOT fly-out.

Some specific instances where flyout menus aren't as accessible as other
solutions would be the group of people that fall in between 'someone that
fully understands their computer' and 'the person with significant
disabilities where they use alternative technologies to help them with the
web'. For instance, grandma with arthritis. She probably may use IE still,
and a mouse, but has a hell of a time aiming the mouse through the maze of
fly-outs.

YES, making the main link a link to an actual page helps a lot, but then
comes the problem of inconsistent fly-outs on the web. Half are good and
have the main link go to a page and half don't. So people get used to one or
the other and perhaps EXPECT the main link not to go somewhere and instead
try to navigate the fly-outs.

Lastly, even PVII's menus suffer when CSS support isn't there. Instead of
showing the 5 top-level inks and one submenu, it shows every single link.
Basically, a site map. This can get really tedious for someone to navigate
through via a screen reader or keyboard.

Again, I don't think anyone is criticizing PVII's products. They are simply
pointing out some of the issues with fly-out menu systems to begin with.

-Darrel




From: Austin, Darrel
Date: Fri, Jul 29 2005 9:28AM
Subject: RE: Accessible popup menus
← Previous message | Next message →


> So what is one to do? If you have a deep site, drop down
> menus can be a huge affordance for non-disabled folks if used
> correctly...they can greatly reduce the number of clicks
> necessary to get from point A to point B.
> How should we use them to not make the site intolerable for
> disabled users?

Consider not making your site so deep? ;0)

But, valid point. In the end, as always, you can't please everyone 100% so
you simply need to weigh the benefits of your implementation vs. the
drawbacks and do what you can.

One idea I've been playing around with in my head is to simply offer this as
a choice for the end user. I'd use standard menus that show a submenu when
you're in that section, and then offer people a choice to also turn on
fly-outs for the same menu. I'd do this server-side so the submenus aren't
loaded unless flyouts are turned on.

It's not a high priority, so I'm not sure if/when I'll get around to playing
with that...just tossing it out as an idea.

-Darrel




From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Fri, Jul 29 2005 9:35AM
Subject: Re: Accessible popup menus
← Previous message | Next message →

> > So what is one to do? If you have a deep site, drop down
> > menus can be a huge affordance for non-disabled folks if used
> > correctly...they can greatly reduce the number of clicks
> > necessary to get from point A to point B.
> > How should we use them to not make the site intolerable for
> > disabled users?
>
> Consider not making your site so deep? ;0)
>
> But, valid point. In the end, as always, you can't please everyone 100% so
> you simply need to weigh the benefits of your implementation vs. the
> drawbacks and do what you can.
>
> One idea I've been playing around with in my head is to simply offer this as
> a choice for the end user. I'd use standard menus that show a submenu when
> you're in that section, and then offer people a choice to also turn on
> fly-outs for the same menu. I'd do this server-side so the submenus aren't
> loaded unless flyouts are turned on.
>
> It's not a high priority, so I'm not sure if/when I'll get around to playing
> with that...just tossing it out as an idea.

I am having that discusssion with a client at the moment:
http://www.wait-till-i.com/index.php?p=133

And I also mentioned it earlier in the thread. Dunno what happened to
all those mails.




From: Terrence Wood
Date: Fri, Jul 29 2005 5:06PM
Subject: Re: Accessible popup menus [in reply to Don's Q]
← Previous message | No next message


On 29 Jul 2005, at 4:41 PM, Don Hinshaw wrote:

> One thing I am struggling with and I haven't heard a really clear
> answer to (I was hoping that Jim would reappear since it was his
> comment that started us off!) is *why* those people who consider Al's
> menus to be inaccesible feel that way.

The main issue for me (I can't speak for Jim) is PVII's claim of WAI
priority 3 conformance for their the menu system when, in fact, it
fails to meet the requirements. Specifically, it fails guideline 9.2 -
Ensure that any element that has its own interface can be operated in a
device-independent manner. see:
http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/#tech-keyboard-operable

And, as it does not create link text itself, but rather relies on the
users of the DW extension to create it, PVII can't claim conformance to
priority three because of the potential to fail guideline 13.1 -
Clearly identify the target of each link. see:
http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/#tech-meaningful-links

Based on these facts PVII can, at best only claim conformance to WAI
priority one.

There were other issues raised such as the difficulties dropdown and
flyout menu's present for mouse users with motor difficulties, and the
larger question of how usable is linking to every page on a site (such
as cognitative load etc)? Christain addresses some the larger question
elsewhere in this thread.

kind regards
Terrence Wood.