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Thread: Placeholder text in forms for Priority 3

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Number of posts in this thread: 10 (In chronological order)

From: Paul Collins
Date: Fri, Aug 08 2008 4:20AM
Subject: Placeholder text in forms for Priority 3
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Hi all,

Trying to validate my site to Priority 3 and I'm getting this error in my
validation, due to my contact form

"10.4 Until user agents handle empty controls correctly, include default,
place-holding characters in edit boxes and text areas."

Are there any user agents that still have a problem with this? I have
descriptive labels associated with each form control and it seems a bit
pointless duplicating this inside the control.

I notice a lot of major sites don't bother, is this necessary?

Cheers

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Fri, Aug 08 2008 4:50AM
Subject: Re: Placeholder text in forms for Priority 3
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Paul Collins wrote:

> "10.4 Until user agents handle empty controls correctly, include default,
> place-holding characters in edit boxes and text areas."
>
> Are there any user agents that still have a problem with this?

The original culprit was, if memory serves me, Netscape 2 combined with
Alva Outspoken on Mac OS 8 or 9. I'd say it's now fair to assume all
user agents are fine.

The only other instance I've heard of where not having placeholder text
could be an issue is with certain text browsers in combination with
braille displays...but that's more of a failing on the part of those
browsers, and a fairly edge case.

Long story short: ignore that point.

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
______________________________________________________________
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
______________________________________________________________
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
______________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________
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Address list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Rich Pedley
Date: Fri, Aug 08 2008 5:00AM
Subject: Re: Placeholder text in forms for Priority 3
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On 08/08/2008 11:44, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
> Paul Collins wrote:
>
>> "10.4 Until user agents handle empty controls correctly, include default,
>> place-holding characters in edit boxes and text areas."
>>
>> Are there any user agents that still have a problem with this?
>
> The original culprit was, if memory serves me, Netscape 2 combined with
> Alva Outspoken on Mac OS 8 or 9. I'd say it's now fair to assume all
> user agents are fine.
>
> The only other instance I've heard of where not having placeholder text
> could be an issue is with certain text browsers in combination with
> braille displays...but that's more of a failing on the part of those
> browsers, and a fairly edge case.
>
> Long story short: ignore that point.

*thwack*

we came up with using a single space some time ago, which can be
easily trimmed out upon processing.

Rich


From: Dan Conley
Date: Fri, Aug 08 2008 6:30AM
Subject: Re: Placeholder text in forms for Priority 3
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Is having something in the box ok, or does that cause more problems now?
When I first started developing our site I included them, but now I'm
thinking that perhaps I should remove it all.

Dan Conley
Information Specialist
Center for International Information Research and Exchange (CIRRIE)
University at Buffalo, Health Sciences Library B6
Phone: (716) 829-3900 x145
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://cirrie.buffalo.edu

Rich Pedley wrote:
> On 08/08/2008 11:44, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
>> Paul Collins wrote:
>>
>>> "10.4 Until user agents handle empty controls correctly, include default,
>>> place-holding characters in edit boxes and text areas."
>>>
>>> Are there any user agents that still have a problem with this?
>> The original culprit was, if memory serves me, Netscape 2 combined with
>> Alva Outspoken on Mac OS 8 or 9. I'd say it's now fair to assume all
>> user agents are fine.
>>
>> The only other instance I've heard of where not having placeholder text
>> could be an issue is with certain text browsers in combination with
>> braille displays...but that's more of a failing on the part of those
>> browsers, and a fairly edge case.
>>
>> Long story short: ignore that point.
>
> *thwack*
>
> we came up with using a single space some time ago, which can be
> easily trimmed out upon processing.
>
> Rich
>
>
>

From: ben morrison
Date: Fri, Aug 08 2008 6:40AM
Subject: Re: Placeholder text in forms for Priority 3
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On Fri, Aug 8, 2008 at 1:21 PM, Dan Conley < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Is having something in the box ok, or does that cause more problems now?
> When I first started developing our site I included them, but now I'm
> thinking that perhaps I should remove it all.
>

Personally, I think that empty is best.

If the design requires that there is text in an input field, then you
can always use JS for this.



--
Ben Morrison

From: Mark Magennis
Date: Fri, Aug 08 2008 7:50AM
Subject: Re: Placeholder text in forms for Priority 3
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Dan,

It can cause problems. I've lost count of the number of times I have
seen screen reader users try to search for something like "Olympics"
and end up searching for "EntOlympicser Keywords".

If you must populate the field with something like "Enter Keywords",
populate it using JavaScript and make sure it gets removed when the
field gets focus.

Mark

On 8 Aug 2008, at 13:21, Dan Conley wrote:

> Is having something in the box ok, or does that cause more problems
> now?
> When I first started developing our site I included them, but now I'm
> thinking that perhaps I should remove it all.
>
> Dan Conley
> Information Specialist
> Center for International Information Research and Exchange (CIRRIE)
> University at Buffalo, Health Sciences Library B6
> Phone: (716) 829-3900 x145
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> http://cirrie.buffalo.edu


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From: Dan Conley
Date: Fri, Aug 08 2008 9:50AM
Subject: Re: Placeholder text in forms for Priority 3
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That's how I have it now: an onFocus to clear the text. I suppose it's
more of a consistency issue, really, since my newer forms are blank.

Dan Conley
Information Specialist
Center for International Information Research and Exchange (CIRRIE)
University at Buffalo, Health Sciences Library B6
Phone: (716) 829-3900 x145
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://cirrie.buffalo.edu

Mark Magennis wrote:
> Dan,
>
> It can cause problems. I've lost count of the number of times I have
> seen screen reader users try to search for something like "Olympics"
> and end up searching for "EntOlympicser Keywords".
>
> If you must populate the field with something like "Enter Keywords",
> populate it using JavaScript and make sure it gets removed when the
> field gets focus.
>
> Mark
>
> On 8 Aug 2008, at 13:21, Dan Conley wrote:
>
>> Is having something in the box ok, or does that cause more problems
>> now?
>> When I first started developing our site I included them, but now I'm
>> thinking that perhaps I should remove it all.
>>
>> Dan Conley
>> Information Specialist
>> Center for International Information Research and Exchange (CIRRIE)
>> University at Buffalo, Health Sciences Library B6
>> Phone: (716) 829-3900 x145
>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> http://cirrie.buffalo.edu
>
>
> ********************************************************************
>
> NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments
> is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of
> the content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify
> the sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to
> delete it and any attachments from your system.
>
> NCBI endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated
> by its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However,
> it cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are
> transmitted. We therefore recommend you scan all attachments.
>
> Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email
> and any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily
> represent the views of NCBI
>
>
> ********************************************************************
>
>
>
>

From: Jared Smith
Date: Fri, Aug 08 2008 10:00AM
Subject: Re: Placeholder text in forms for Priority 3
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On Fri, Aug 8, 2008 at 9:48 AM, Dan Conley < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> That's how I have it now: an onFocus to clear the text. I suppose it's
> more of a consistency issue, really, since my newer forms are blank.

A better approach is to use scripting to set the value of the text box
on page load and remove the text onfocus. This removes the issues
documented above if the user has scripting disabled.

With this said, it should be readily apparent what a form element does
from it's label and/or the button that activates that form. The
inclusion of default text often indicates a form is not very user
friendly to begin with.

Jared Smith
WebAIM

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Fri, Aug 08 2008 2:40PM
Subject: Re: Placeholder text in forms for Priority 3
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Jared Smith wrote:

> A better approach is to use scripting to set the value of the text box
> on page load and remove the text onfocus. This removes the issues
> documented above if the user has scripting disabled.

i clobbered a script together a few years ago. should still work fairly ok

http://www.splintered.co.uk/experiments/22

--
Patrick H. Lauke
______________________________________________________________
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
______________________________________________________________
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
______________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________
To manage your subscription, visit http://list.webaim.org/
Address list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Sofia Celic
Date: Sun, Aug 10 2008 4:40PM
Subject: Re: Placeholder text in forms for Priority 3
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Just remember to only remove the default text with the script!
Screen reader users often shift focus back and forth to check their input. I
have seen many implementations that script away the text entered by screen
reader users while they are checking their input.


On Fri, Aug 8, 2008 at 8:54 AM, Jared Smith < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:


> A better approach is to use scripting to set the value of the text box
> on page load and remove the text onfocus. This removes the issues
> documented above if the user has scripting disabled.
>
>