E-mail List Archives
Thread: does TH scope go along with TH span?
Number of posts in this thread: 8 (In chronological order)
From: Keith Parks
Date: Mon, Nov 23 2009 3:50PM
Subject: does TH scope go along with TH span?
No previous message | Next message →
Hi folks.
Hope I can ask this question in a clear way.
Say you have a multi-row, multi-column table. In the left-hand column,
there is a table cell that has the row span set to "2", so visually it
lines up with two rows.
If that cell is called out as a TH, with a scope="row", is its "header
role" applied to both rows that it spans in the html?
Thanks,
Keith
******************************
Keith Parks
Graphic Designer/Web Designer
Student Affairs Communications Services
San Diego State University
San Diego, CA 92182-7444
(619) 594-1046
mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.sa.sdsu.edu/communications
http://kparks.deviantart.com/gallery
----------------------------------------------------------
Proud member of D/d.U.T.R.T.W.O.C.H.S.
(Designers/developers United To Rid The Web Of "Click Here" Syndrome)
From: Simius Puer
Date: Mon, Nov 23 2009 4:10PM
Subject: Re: does TH scope go along with TH span?
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi Keith
Perfectly clear!
JAWS doesn't like that much the last I heard - newer versions might be
better at handling this but you'd need to ask someone who uses it (and don't
forget, not everyone will have the latest version).
A more sure-fire way of doing it is to use headers and id's to tie the cells
to their headings, though that might be overkill for your table as these are
really only for use with tables with multiple levels of headings.
Good article here: http://www.webaim.org/techniques/tables/data.php ...I'd
reccomend reading the very bottom part of "The headers and id attributes" as
it may guide you on the right path.
Best advice is to keep the tables as simple as the data allows. Perhaps you
could simply replicate the header cell text, even if you don't do this
visually (i.e. using an "accessible" hidden text method and some nice CSS
for visual purposes)?
Hope that helps
From: Simius Puer
Date: Mon, Nov 23 2009 4:40PM
Subject: Re: does TH scope go along with TH span?
← Previous message | Next message →
Just to add to that - the explanation of the "summary" attribute on that
link is a little incorrect in my opinion.
The W3C says "This attribute provides a summary of the table's purpose and
structure for user agents rendering to non-visual media such as speech and
Braille" [source:
http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/tables.html#adef-summary" ...I know this
is the HTML4 spec but I couldn't locate any further info in the XHTML spec]
The intention is *not* to summarise the content, but to very quickly define
the purpose of the table (try not to duplicate anything you are going to put
in the "caption" attribute). A clear description of the table layout is
more useful to non-sighted users as it helps to form a mental visualisation
of it's layout. e.g. "Table uses a single header row and column" or variants
thereof.
Example given by the W3C: <table summary="This table charts the number of
cups of coffee consumed by each senator, the type of coffee (decaf or
regular), and whether taken with sugar."> As you can see, this defines the
tables purpose but makes *no *attempt to summarise the data itself. It also
fails to give any idea of the structure so it's not the best example they
could have given.
Briefly put, the "summary" attribute is not intended (at least in the HTML
specification) as a "longdesc" for tables.
I'd be very interested to hear what users of screen readers actually think
of this. Should developers go by the letter of the spec or are more
in-depth summaries required? Perhaps we should be looking to add these
descriptions via another method so the user has a choice or reading the
table or reading someones attempt at summarising the data? My gut feeling
is that I have heard "we want the same experience as visual users" a lot and
it sticks. Plus that matches with the original intention of the attribute.
From: Geof Collis
Date: Mon, Nov 23 2009 5:00PM
Subject: Re: does TH scope go along with TH span?
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi Andrew
While never having given this much thought, I have never really paid
attention to table summaries, perhaps I've not run into many that
actually served their intended purpose, but I like them to be short
and concise or even better a description before I enter the table
describing its layout.
What I am finding these days is abuse of some guidelines, especially
alt text. I have come across so many instances, mostly from
newspapers so far where they put a description in the alt attribute
and then duplicate it right afterwards in surrounding text, I can see
this happening with table summaries if left unchecked.
cheers
Geof
At 06:37 PM 11/23/2009, you wrote:
>Just to add to that - the explanation of the "summary" attribute on that
>link is a little incorrect in my opinion.
>
>The W3C says "This attribute provides a summary of the table's purpose and
>structure for user agents rendering to non-visual media such as speech and
>Braille" [source:
>http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/tables.html#adef-summary" ...I know this
>is the HTML4 spec but I couldn't locate any further info in the XHTML spec]
>
>The intention is *not* to summarise the content, but to very quickly define
>the purpose of the table (try not to duplicate anything you are going to put
>in the "caption" attribute). A clear description of the table layout is
>more useful to non-sighted users as it helps to form a mental visualisation
>of it's layout. e.g. "Table uses a single header row and column" or variants
>thereof.
>
>Example given by the W3C: <table summary="This table charts the number of
>cups of coffee consumed by each senator, the type of coffee (decaf or
>regular), and whether taken with sugar."> As you can see, this defines the
>tables purpose but makes *no *attempt to summarise the data itself. It also
>fails to give any idea of the structure so it's not the best example they
>could have given.
>
>Briefly put, the "summary" attribute is not intended (at least in the HTML
>specification) as a "longdesc" for tables.
>
>I'd be very interested to hear what users of screen readers actually think
>of this. Should developers go by the letter of the spec or are more
>in-depth summaries required? Perhaps we should be looking to add these
>descriptions via another method so the user has a choice or reading the
>table or reading someones attempt at summarising the data? My gut feeling
>is that I have heard "we want the same experience as visual users" a lot and
>it sticks. Plus that matches with the original intention of the attribute.
>
>
>
From: Simius Puer
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 9:35AM
Subject: Re: does TH scope go along with TH span?
← Previous message | Next message →
That's great Geof - thanks for the feedback. Any other AT users with input
on/experience with the summary attribute?
I'm not surprised that you haven't run into the attribute being used very
often - it's not a well known one and it's often misunderstood. The
replication of the text should not really happen if the guidelines are
followed as the summary should be both brief and descriptive of the
structure of the table - not something that should really be included in the
visual text too, but I do see where you are coming from.
The problem you mentioned about abuse of alt tags on images is a commonly
caused by a CMS has been used and either mis-configured or mis-understood by
it's users. Replication of the text is the result.
From: Don Mauck
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 9:45AM
Subject: Re: does TH scope go along with TH span?
← Previous message | Next message →
Personally and from an Oracle standpoint, we like to see table summary tags that have a brief description of the purpose of the table, if, it's not defined elsewhere such as an accurate HTML heading above the table. Also another thing we advocate is that if a table is complicated in the way its sorted or if the sorting order can be changed, the summary can include the column that the table is sorted by. This has been implemented in se3veral of Oracle's products and I as a AT user find that to be helpful.
In summary: If the table is sumple keep the summary simple. The more complex the table, the more one should consider what kind of accurate and concise information needs to go in the tag. As always it is a judgement call and everyone is going to have a differing view as to what's important.
-----Original Message-----
From: Simius Puer [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 9:34 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] does TH scope go along with TH span?
That's great Geof - thanks for the feedback. Any other AT users with input
on/experience with the summary attribute?
I'm not surprised that you haven't run into the attribute being used very
often - it's not a well known one and it's often misunderstood. The
replication of the text should not really happen if the guidelines are
followed as the summary should be both brief and descriptive of the
structure of the table - not something that should really be included in the
visual text too, but I do see where you are coming from.
The problem you mentioned about abuse of alt tags on images is a commonly
caused by a CMS has been used and either mis-configured or mis-understood by
it's users. Replication of the text is the result.
From: Keith Parks
Date: Tue, Dec 01 2009 1:10PM
Subject: Re: does TH scope go along with TH span?
← Previous message | Next message →
On Nov 23, 2009, at 2:50 PM, Keith Parks wrote:
> If that cell is called out as a TH, with a scope="row", is its "header
> role" applied to both rows that it spans in the html?
For anyone interested, I think I stumbled across the proper way to
mark this up. Maybe.
Apparently there is a scope value of "rowgroup", but the explanations
I've found of it are confusing, like this lovely example...
> Colgroups are defined using the COLGROUP tag. Perhaps surprisingly,
> however, HTML contains no corresponding ROWGROUP tag. HTML has the
> concept of a rowgroup, and "rowgroup" is a valid value of the SCOPE
> attribute of TH and TD tags, but it contains no ROWGROUP tag, as
> such. (from "Techniques for Accessible Tables", <http://www.ferg.org/section508/accessible_tables.html#contents_item_6.2.2
> >
>
Huh?
Anyone point me to a simple explanation of the "rowgroup" attribute?
(The one at W3C does not quality)
Thanks,
Keith
******************************
Keith Parks
Graphic Designer/Web Designer
Student Affairs Communications Services
San Diego State University
San Diego, CA 92182-7444
(619) 594-1046
mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.sa.sdsu.edu/communications
http://kparks.deviantart.com/gallery
----------------------------------------------------------
Putting the "no" in "Innovation" since 1988.
From: Chris Hoffman
Date: Tue, Dec 01 2009 6:25PM
Subject: Re: does TH scope go along with TH span?
← Previous message | No next message
A table can (unintuitively) have more than one <tbody>. A header cell
can have scope over the remaining cells in its <tbody> by setting its
scope attribute to "rowgroup". The exact meaning of "the remaining
cells" depends on whether the table is a left-to-right language table
or a right-to-left language table.
Chris
On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 3:09 PM, Keith Parks < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> On Nov 23, 2009, at 2:50 PM, Keith Parks wrote:
>
>> If that cell is called out as a TH, with a scope="row", is its "header
>> role" applied to both rows that it spans in the html?
>
>
> For anyone interested, I think I stumbled across the proper way to
> mark this up. Maybe.
>
> Apparently there is a scope value of "rowgroup", but the explanations
> I've found of it are confusing, like this lovely example...
>
>> Colgroups are defined using the COLGROUP tag. Perhaps surprisingly,
>> however, HTML contains no corresponding ROWGROUP tag. HTML has the
>> concept of a rowgroup, and "rowgroup" is a valid value of the SCOPE
>> attribute of TH and TD tags, but it contains no ROWGROUP tag, as
>> such. (from "Techniques for Accessible Tables", <http://www.ferg.org/section508/accessible_tables.html#contents_item_6.2.2
>> >
>>
> Huh?
>
> Anyone point me to a simple explanation of the "rowgroup" attribute?
> (The one at W3C does not quality)
>
> Thanks,
>
> Keith
>
> ******************************
> Keith Parks
> Graphic Designer/Web Designer
> Student Affairs Communications Services
> San Diego State University
> San Diego, CA 92182-7444
> (619) 594-1046
> mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> http://www.sa.sdsu.edu/communications
>
> http://kparks.deviantart.com/gallery
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> Putting the "no" in "Innovation" since 1988.
>
>