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Thread: PDFs that read one word per line

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Number of posts in this thread: 38 (In chronological order)

From: E.J. Zufelt
Date: Tue, Jan 26 2010 6:30AM
Subject: PDFs that read one word per line
No previous message | Next message →

Good morning,

Once in a while I run across a PDF that reads with JAWS one word per
line (example URL below). Even when saving the PDF as text the
content is saved one word per line. Can anyone tell me if there is a
common structural error that people are making with these documents,
and if so what it might be?

Example PDF document that reads and saves one word per line:
http://www.torontopubliclibrary.ca/pdfs/board/10jan18/12.pdf

Thanks,
Everett

Follow me on Twitter
http://twitter.com/ezufelt

View my LinkedIn Profile
http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt

From: Geof Collis
Date: Tue, Jan 26 2010 6:54AM
Subject: Re: PDFs that read one word per line
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Everett

It is my understanding that the CNIB has a course on how to create
accessible pdf documents. :O)

cheers

Geof
At 08:29 AM 1/26/2010, you wrote:
>Good morning,
>
>Once in a while I run across a PDF that reads with JAWS one word per
>line (example URL below). Even when saving the PDF as text the
>content is saved one word per line. Can anyone tell me if there is a
>common structural error that people are making with these documents,
>and if so what it might be?
>
>Example PDF document that reads and saves one word per line:
>http://www.torontopubliclibrary.ca/pdfs/board/10jan18/12.pdf
>
>Thanks,
>Everett
>
>Follow me on Twitter
>http://twitter.com/ezufelt
>
>View my LinkedIn Profile
>http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt
>
>
>
>

From: Geof Collis
Date: Tue, Jan 26 2010 7:06AM
Subject: Re: PDFs that read one word per line
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi All

Further to this post, why am I having such trouble with these pdf
documents even though I have the latest Adobe Reader and JAWS 10, I
keep getting documents like this that I cannot navigate, I hear open
parent document" and I hit enter and all I hear is "1 or some other
number, even though I was able to read the document from the
beginning. I'm never sure if I have read the whole document.

In a previous document I hit tab and it opened some part of the
document but this one didn't, I'm finding no consistency in pdf's
lately other than they are not very accessible.

cheers

Geof

From: Moore,Michael (DARS)
Date: Tue, Jan 26 2010 7:12AM
Subject: Re: PDFs that read one word per line
← Previous message | Next message →

A quick check of the document with Adobe Pro indicates that the document is not tagged. The best course of action would be for the person who created the document to do the following.

1. Check the source document and make sure that it structurally sound. (Uses headings, properly structured tables, and lists, and that the paragraphs are complete - ie there is not a paragraph break at the end of each line)
2. Reconvert the document and make sure that the option to create a tagged PDF is enabled. The location of this setting depends upon the converter that is being used. If you are using Acrobat Standard or Pro with Office 2007 you will find this on the Acrobat Tab under preferences, just make sure that the enable accessibility and reflow with tagged PDF.
3. Given the structure of the document it should work pretty well but can be tested in Adobe Pro.

More information on Adobe is available at http://www.adobe.com/accessibility/products/acrobat/training.html

PDFs may not be perfect but something as simple as your example should be able to be made to work pretty well.

Mike Moore

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Geof Collis
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 7:55 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDFs that read one word per line

Hi Everett

It is my understanding that the CNIB has a course on how to create
accessible pdf documents. :O)

cheers

Geof
At 08:29 AM 1/26/2010, you wrote:
>Good morning,
>
>Once in a while I run across a PDF that reads with JAWS one word per
>line (example URL below). Even when saving the PDF as text the
>content is saved one word per line. Can anyone tell me if there is a
>common structural error that people are making with these documents,
>and if so what it might be?
>
>Example PDF document that reads and saves one word per line:
>http://www.torontopubliclibrary.ca/pdfs/board/10jan18/12.pdf
>
>Thanks,
>Everett
>
>Follow me on Twitter
>http://twitter.com/ezufelt
>
>View my LinkedIn Profile
>http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt
>
>
>
>

From: Jason Megginson
Date: Tue, Jan 26 2010 7:15AM
Subject: Re: PDFs that read one word per line
← Previous message | Next message →

Hello Everett,

The PDF document you offer is not tagged and structured. Acrobat will
infer reading order when a screen reader is active on an untagged
document. If you tag the document with Acrobat Professional you'll notice
better results. I tagged this document with the Automatic tag feature in
Acrobat 9 Professional and JAWS read entire lines with the virtual cursor.


The amount of words announced by JAWS can also be set in the Configuration
Manager (HTML Options) and Verbosity settings. So depending on user
settings, the amount of text read on a tagged PDF document may vary.

If sentences within one paragraph are tagged with multiple paragraph
elements, this may also affect the way JAWS reads the information. Rather
than reading the entire line, JAWS may stop at the end of the sentence.

Jason

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of E.J. Zufelt
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 8:29 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: [WebAIM] PDFs that read one word per line

Good morning,

Once in a while I run across a PDF that reads with JAWS one word per
line (example URL below). Even when saving the PDF as text the
content is saved one word per line. Can anyone tell me if there is a
common structural error that people are making with these documents,
and if so what it might be?

Example PDF document that reads and saves one word per line:
http://www.torontopubliclibrary.ca/pdfs/board/10jan18/12.pdf

Thanks,
Everett

Follow me on Twitter
http://twitter.com/ezufelt

View my LinkedIn Profile
http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt

From: Karlen Communications
Date: Tue, Jan 26 2010 7:18AM
Subject: Re: PDFs that read one word per line
← Previous message | Next message →

This is an untagged PDF document so there may be several problems with the
source document that would cause the Virtual Tags to misread the content.

If I use Adobe acrobat to add Tags to the document, the Tags are pretty
accurate and reflect the corresponding content. JAWS reads the document just
fine.

Yes, a tagged PDF document does have structural elements that correspond
with the visual representation of the document. As this is an untagged PDF,
you may or may not get the results you are experiencing.

I offer consulting and training on creating accessible PDF documents from
several different applications including InDesign and dynamic database PDF
generation.

Many companies and organizations in Ontario do not know how to create
accessible PDF and are scrambling to figure it out for AODA. I, among other
companies, am trying to connect with companies and organizations who need
the training in how to make source documents and PDF documents accessible.

But the short answer to your question is that this is an untagged PDF
document.

Cheers, Karen



-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of E.J. Zufelt
Sent: January-26-10 8:29 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: [WebAIM] PDFs that read one word per line

Good morning,

Once in a while I run across a PDF that reads with JAWS one word per
line (example URL below). Even when saving the PDF as text the
content is saved one word per line. Can anyone tell me if there is a
common structural error that people are making with these documents,
and if so what it might be?

Example PDF document that reads and saves one word per line:
http://www.torontopubliclibrary.ca/pdfs/board/10jan18/12.pdf

Thanks,
Everett

Follow me on Twitter
http://twitter.com/ezufelt

View my LinkedIn Profile
http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt

From: Moore,Michael (DARS)
Date: Tue, Jan 26 2010 7:30AM
Subject: Re: PDFs that read one word per line
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Geof

Believe me we feel your pain. The vast majority of PDFs are created with no regard for accessibility. And there is a huge misconception that all PDFs are accessible. Thus there is an attitude among many users that all I need to do to post an accessible version of any document is convert it to PDF. Add to that the number of automated, database driven reporting tools that publish to a totally inaccessible PDF format and you have a situation that has led many of my friends who use screen readers to add the letter "U" to the end of the PDF acronym.

Adobe is not wholly responsible for this mess. They don't create the reporting tools, and they are not responsible for teaching folks to use their document creation and PDF conversion tools properly. They don't even make all of the tools that create PDFs from Office documents. The do promote PDF as an accessible format though, and unfortunately their success has made the Adobe name synonymous with PDF in the eyes of the general public.

We are taking a holistic approach to the problem. First we provide training to people in how to use their MS Office tools properly to create well structured documents. Next we teach them how to use those well structured documents to create accessible PDFs, and HTML documents and how to make judgments about which format is appropriate for the intended audience. We encourage document authors to make materials available in multiple formats to meet the needs of a variety of users. Once people see how easy it is to create documents that are accessible in their native format, and then easily convert them to accessible PDF and HTML then we have a community that is creating a document library that is easier to use and to maintain. That's our theory anyway, ask me again in about a year how well we are doing.

As for the automated reporting tools... we test, we report, and we try to influence the manufacturers of the tools to do a better job.

Mike Moore

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Geof Collis
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 8:07 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDFs that read one word per line

Hi All

Further to this post, why am I having such trouble with these pdf
documents even though I have the latest Adobe Reader and JAWS 10, I
keep getting documents like this that I cannot navigate, I hear open
parent document" and I hit enter and all I hear is "1 or some other
number, even though I was able to read the document from the
beginning. I'm never sure if I have read the whole document.

In a previous document I hit tab and it opened some part of the
document but this one didn't, I'm finding no consistency in pdf's
lately other than they are not very accessible.

cheers

Geof

From: Geof Collis
Date: Tue, Jan 26 2010 7:48AM
Subject: Re: PDFs that read one word per line
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Mike

I like that , PDFu, I'll start using it as it is very fitting.

I think it has gotten worse, 3 months ago when I was using my old
system, JAWS 6.0 and an earlier version of Adobe Reader I was able to
at least get some of the text now I get that "open parent document'
business and it's a crap shoot whether I can read any of it.

I can say from experience that not too many Municipalities in Ontario
care whether it is accessible, as you say because it is widely
thought that pdf's are accessible that's all they need to know and
telling them any different falls on deaf ears and trying to sell them
on how to create accessible ones is a harder sell than web accessibility.

I still cant let Adobe off the hook completely because I dont see
enough from them stating that they need to be made accessible and
that it doesn't come accessible right out of the box.

cheers

Geof

At 09:29 AM 1/26/2010, you wrote:
>Hi Geof
>
>Believe me we feel your pain. The vast majority of PDFs are created
>with no regard for accessibility. And there is a huge misconception
>that all PDFs are accessible. Thus there is an attitude among many
>users that all I need to do to post an accessible version of any
>document is convert it to PDF. Add to that the number of automated,
>database driven reporting tools that publish to a totally
>inaccessible PDF format and you have a situation that has led many
>of my friends who use screen readers to add the letter "U" to the
>end of the PDF acronym.
>
>Adobe is not wholly responsible for this mess. They don't create the
>reporting tools, and they are not responsible for teaching folks to
>use their document creation and PDF conversion tools properly. They
>don't even make all of the tools that create PDFs from Office
>documents. The do promote PDF as an accessible format though, and
>unfortunately their success has made the Adobe name synonymous with
>PDF in the eyes of the general public.
>
>We are taking a holistic approach to the problem. First we provide
>training to people in how to use their MS Office tools properly to
>create well structured documents. Next we teach them how to use
>those well structured documents to create accessible PDFs, and HTML
>documents and how to make judgments about which format is
>appropriate for the intended audience. We encourage document authors
>to make materials available in multiple formats to meet the needs of
>a variety of users. Once people see how easy it is to create
>documents that are accessible in their native format, and then
>easily convert them to accessible PDF and HTML then we have a
>community that is creating a document library that is easier to use
>and to maintain. That's our theory anyway, ask me again in about a
>year how well we are doing.
>
>As for the automated reporting tools... we test, we report, and we
>try to influence the manufacturers of the tools to do a better job.
>
>Mike Moore
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Geof Collis
>Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 8:07 AM
>To: WebAIM Discussion List
>Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDFs that read one word per line
>
>Hi All
>
>Further to this post, why am I having such trouble with these pdf
>documents even though I have the latest Adobe Reader and JAWS 10, I
>keep getting documents like this that I cannot navigate, I hear open
>parent document" and I hit enter and all I hear is "1 or some other
>number, even though I was able to read the document from the
>beginning. I'm never sure if I have read the whole document.
>
>In a previous document I hit tab and it opened some part of the
>document but this one didn't, I'm finding no consistency in pdf's
>lately other than they are not very accessible.
>
>cheers
>
>Geof
>
>

From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Tue, Jan 26 2010 8:12AM
Subject: Re: PDFs that read one word per line
← Previous message | Next message →

> I like that , PDFu, I'll start using it as it is very fitting.

You've been outspoken in your criticism of PDF and Adobe on this list, and that's fine because we are making software for our users and it improves when we talk with and listen to our users. It is exciting and gratifying to get productive feedback from users who discuss their issues with us and then see improvements in the products that help address those issues. However, I don't think that adding a letter to make a double entendre out of PDF is going to help these conversations remain productive no matter how frustrated you are with the format.

> I still cant let Adobe off the hook completely because I dont see enough from them stating that they need to be made accessible and
> that it doesn't come accessible right out of the box.

I'm always looking for ways to improve our messages so that PDF files, Flash files, and anything else produced by an Adobe product stands an improved chance of being accessible. I'm sure that I've said things like "if you follow best practices during authoring then your PDF file can be accessible" but perhaps others are saying that PDF is a magic format that compensates for author's neglect of accessibility. I'm happy to take suggestions.

Thanks,
AWK

Andrew Kirkpatrick

Senior Product Manager, Accessibility

Adobe Systems

= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: deblist@suberic.net
Date: Tue, Jan 26 2010 8:18AM
Subject: Re: PDFs that read one word per line
← Previous message | Next message →

On Tue, 26 Jan 2010, Andrew Kirkpatrick wrote:
> but perhaps others are saying that PDF is a magic format that compensates for author's neglect of accessibility. I'm happy to take suggestions.

Andrew,

This is undoubtedly happening. The United States government, for
example, has decided that putting things into PDF -- no matter
how they are formatted in PDF -- automatically makes them
accessible, and has put up many, many inaccessible PDF documents
labeled as accessible. Many American universities are under the
impression that PDF is automatically accessible. This is such a
widespread misconception that I'm not sure how Adobe could fight
it without pop-ups on PDF creation that say "this document is not
accessible by default. In order to add accessibility, you will
need to follow the steps documented elsewhere."

-Deborah

From: John E. Brandt
Date: Tue, Jan 26 2010 8:21AM
Subject: Re: PDFs that read one word per line
← Previous message | Next message →

Well put, Mike. I'd "retweet" this if I could.

Yours is essentially the same advice I am, and have been, giving Maine State
government. We've also provided them with a series of articles that went
into a newsletter by the Office of Information Technology. But it needs to
be a strategy of policy as well as training to be successful. Supervisors
must demand that all documents be accessible.

~j

John E. Brandt
jebswebs.com
Augusta, ME USA
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
www.jebswebs.com

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Moore,Michael
(DARS)
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 9:30 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDFs that read one word per line

Hi Geof

Believe me we feel your pain. The vast majority of PDFs are created with no
regard for accessibility. And there is a huge misconception that all PDFs
are accessible. Thus there is an attitude among many users that all I need
to do to post an accessible version of any document is convert it to PDF.
Add to that the number of automated, database driven reporting tools that
publish to a totally inaccessible PDF format and you have a situation that
has led many of my friends who use screen readers to add the letter "U" to
the end of the PDF acronym.

Adobe is not wholly responsible for this mess. They don't create the
reporting tools, and they are not responsible for teaching folks to use
their document creation and PDF conversion tools properly. They don't even
make all of the tools that create PDFs from Office documents. The do promote
PDF as an accessible format though, and unfortunately their success has made
the Adobe name synonymous with PDF in the eyes of the general public.

We are taking a holistic approach to the problem. First we provide training
to people in how to use their MS Office tools properly to create well
structured documents. Next we teach them how to use those well structured
documents to create accessible PDFs, and HTML documents and how to make
judgments about which format is appropriate for the intended audience. We
encourage document authors to make materials available in multiple formats
to meet the needs of a variety of users. Once people see how easy it is to
create documents that are accessible in their native format, and then easily
convert them to accessible PDF and HTML then we have a community that is
creating a document library that is easier to use and to maintain. That's
our theory anyway, ask me again in about a year how well we are doing.

As for the automated reporting tools... we test, we report, and we try to
influence the manufacturers of the tools to do a better job.

Mike Moore

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Geof Collis
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 8:07 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDFs that read one word per line

Hi All

Further to this post, why am I having such trouble with these pdf
documents even though I have the latest Adobe Reader and JAWS 10, I
keep getting documents like this that I cannot navigate, I hear open
parent document" and I hit enter and all I hear is "1 or some other
number, even though I was able to read the document from the
beginning. I'm never sure if I have read the whole document.

In a previous document I hit tab and it opened some part of the
document but this one didn't, I'm finding no consistency in pdf's
lately other than they are not very accessible.

cheers

Geof

From: Geof Collis
Date: Tue, Jan 26 2010 8:27AM
Subject: Re: PDFs that read one word per line
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Andrew

It is not you that isn't getting the message out it is Adobe, the
Staff at my City wouldn't know who you were and all the effort you
personally are putting into the education, heck from my dealings
with them they use other products to create their pdf's.

As for the double entendre I dont think it will sully the name any
more than it already is. :O)

cheers

Geof



At 10:10 AM 1/26/2010, you wrote:
> > I like that , PDFu, I'll start using it as it is very fitting.
>
>You've been outspoken in your criticism of PDF and Adobe on this
>list, and that's fine because we are making software for our users
>and it improves when we talk with and listen to our users. It is
>exciting and gratifying to get productive feedback from users who
>discuss their issues with us and then see improvements in the
>products that help address those issues. However, I don't think
>that adding a letter to make a double entendre out of PDF is going
>to help these conversations remain productive no matter how
>frustrated you are with the format.
>
> > I still cant let Adobe off the hook completely because I dont see
> enough from them stating that they need to be made accessible and
> > that it doesn't come accessible right out of the box.
>
>I'm always looking for ways to improve our messages so that PDF
>files, Flash files, and anything else produced by an Adobe product
>stands an improved chance of being accessible. I'm sure that I've
>said things like "if you follow best practices during authoring then
>your PDF file can be accessible" but perhaps others are saying that
>PDF is a magic format that compensates for author's neglect of
>accessibility. I'm happy to take suggestions.
>
>Thanks,
>AWK
>
>Andrew Kirkpatrick
>
>Senior Product Manager, Accessibility
>
>Adobe Systems
>
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
>
>
>
>

From: Monir ElRayes
Date: Tue, Jan 26 2010 8:57AM
Subject: Re: PDFs that read one word per line
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Everett,

A couple of points to add:

Tagging a PDF document is a necessary (but not sufficient) condition for
accessibility. A document must both be tagged and also have a valid
structure as a baseline for accessibility (there are many tagged documents
that are not accessible). Furthermore, a PDF document needs to be remediated
to meet a specific accessibility standard (e.g. Section 508 or W3C WCAG 2.0
to add alt text for images and fix tables etc).

There are currently two approaches in the marketplace for remediating PDF
documents for accessibility: Adobe Acrobat (Pro or Standard) or NetCentric's
CommonLook tool. Once remediated, a PDF document is typically as accessible
as an equivalent HTML document.

Best of luck with your project.

Cheers,
Monir

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of E.J. Zufelt
Sent: January-26-10 8:29 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: [WebAIM] PDFs that read one word per line

Good morning,

Once in a while I run across a PDF that reads with JAWS one word per
line (example URL below). Even when saving the PDF as text the
content is saved one word per line. Can anyone tell me if there is a
common structural error that people are making with these documents,
and if so what it might be?

Example PDF document that reads and saves one word per line:
http://www.torontopubliclibrary.ca/pdfs/board/10jan18/12.pdf

Thanks,
Everett

Follow me on Twitter
http://twitter.com/ezufelt

View my LinkedIn Profile
http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt

From: Julie Strothman
Date: Tue, Jan 26 2010 9:00AM
Subject: Re: PDFs that read one word per line
← Previous message | Next message →

It's true that we all need to advocate for use of best practices during
authorship.
However, as long as adding and modifying tags is only available as a premium
feature, Adobe's message is that accessibility is non-standard.


On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 10:10 AM, Andrew Kirkpatrick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:

> > I like that , PDFu, I'll start using it as it is very fitting.
>
> You've been outspoken in your criticism of PDF and Adobe on this list, and
> that's fine because we are making software for our users and it improves
> when we talk with and listen to our users. It is exciting and gratifying to
> get productive feedback from users who discuss their issues with us and then
> see improvements in the products that help address those issues. However, I
> don't think that adding a letter to make a double entendre out of PDF is
> going to help these conversations remain productive no matter how frustrated
> you are with the format.
>
> > I still cant let Adobe off the hook completely because I dont see enough
> from them stating that they need to be made accessible and
> > that it doesn't come accessible right out of the box.
>
> I'm always looking for ways to improve our messages so that PDF files,
> Flash files, and anything else produced by an Adobe product stands an
> improved chance of being accessible. I'm sure that I've said things like
> "if you follow best practices during authoring then your PDF file can be
> accessible" but perhaps others are saying that PDF is a magic format that
> compensates for author's neglect of accessibility. I'm happy to take
> suggestions.
>
> Thanks,
> AWK
>
> Andrew Kirkpatrick
>
> Senior Product Manager, Accessibility
>
> Adobe Systems
>
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
>
>
>
>

From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Tue, Jan 26 2010 9:03AM
Subject: Re: PDFs that read one word per line
← Previous message | Next message →

Modifying tags does require Acrobat Pro, but tags are added in Acrobat Standard.

Thanks,
AWK

Andrew Kirkpatrick

Senior Product Manager, Accessibility

Adobe Systems

= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =


-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Julie Strothman
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 10:55 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDFs that read one word per line

It's true that we all need to advocate for use of best practices during
authorship.
However, as long as adding and modifying tags is only available as a premium
feature, Adobe's message is that accessibility is non-standard.


On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 10:10 AM, Andrew Kirkpatrick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:

> > I like that , PDFu, I'll start using it as it is very fitting.
>
> You've been outspoken in your criticism of PDF and Adobe on this list, and
> that's fine because we are making software for our users and it improves
> when we talk with and listen to our users. It is exciting and gratifying to
> get productive feedback from users who discuss their issues with us and then
> see improvements in the products that help address those issues. However, I
> don't think that adding a letter to make a double entendre out of PDF is
> going to help these conversations remain productive no matter how frustrated
> you are with the format.
>
> > I still cant let Adobe off the hook completely because I dont see enough
> from them stating that they need to be made accessible and
> > that it doesn't come accessible right out of the box.
>
> I'm always looking for ways to improve our messages so that PDF files,
> Flash files, and anything else produced by an Adobe product stands an
> improved chance of being accessible. I'm sure that I've said things like
> "if you follow best practices during authoring then your PDF file can be
> accessible" but perhaps others are saying that PDF is a magic format that
> compensates for author's neglect of accessibility. I'm happy to take
> suggestions.
>
> Thanks,
> AWK
>
> Andrew Kirkpatrick
>
> Senior Product Manager, Accessibility
>
> Adobe Systems
>
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
>
>
>
>

From: Julie Strothman
Date: Tue, Jan 26 2010 9:21AM
Subject: Re: PDFs that read one word per line
← Previous message | Next message →

Tags are automatically added in Standard by Acrobat, yes. But I thought that new tags could only be added in Professional?

Adobe claims that "Adobe is an industry leader in accessibility and supports the creation of outstanding web experiences by encouraging web developers to produce rich, engaging content that is accessible to all."
This does not jibe with making accessibility features exclusively available to wealthier organizations.
Web developers are not being encouraged to create accessible experiences when Adobe ships Flash, Flex, and Dreamweaver with accessibility features turned off, and when the features that can be made accessible are such a small percentage of the feature-set.

-Julie Strothman
User Experience Researcher and Designer
Landmark College
Putney VT

>>> Andrew Kirkpatrick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > 01/26/10 11:00 AM >>>
Modifying tags does require Acrobat Pro, but tags are added in Acrobat Standard.

Thanks,
AWK

Andrew Kirkpatrick

Senior Product Manager, Accessibility

Adobe Systems

= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =


-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Julie Strothman
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 10:55 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDFs that read one word per line

It's true that we all need to advocate for use of best practices during
authorship.
However, as long as adding and modifying tags is only available as a premium
feature, Adobe's message is that accessibility is non-standard.


On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 10:10 AM, Andrew Kirkpatrick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:

> > I like that , PDFu, I'll start using it as it is very fitting.
>
> You've been outspoken in your criticism of PDF and Adobe on this list, and
> that's fine because we are making software for our users and it improves
> when we talk with and listen to our users. It is exciting and gratifying to
> get productive feedback from users who discuss their issues with us and then
> see improvements in the products that help address those issues. However, I
> don't think that adding a letter to make a double entendre out of PDF is
> going to help these conversations remain productive no matter how frustrated
> you are with the format.
>
> > I still cant let Adobe off the hook completely because I dont see enough
> from them stating that they need to be made accessible and
> > that it doesn't come accessible right out of the box.
>
> I'm always looking for ways to improve our messages so that PDF files,
> Flash files, and anything else produced by an Adobe product stands an
> improved chance of being accessible. I'm sure that I've said things like
> "if you follow best practices during authoring then your PDF file can be
> accessible" but perhaps others are saying that PDF is a magic format that
> compensates for author's neglect of accessibility. I'm happy to take
> suggestions.
>
> Thanks,
> AWK
>
> Andrew Kirkpatrick
>
> Senior Product Manager, Accessibility
>
> Adobe Systems
>
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
>
>
>
>

From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Tue, Jan 26 2010 9:33AM
Subject: Re: PDFs that read one word per line
← Previous message | Next message →

Tags are automatically added in Standard by Acrobat, yes. But I thought that new tags could only be added in Professional?

This is correct.

Adobe claims that "Adobe is an industry leader in accessibility and supports the creation of outstanding web experiences by encouraging web developers to produce rich, engaging content that is accessible to all."
This does not jibe with making accessibility features exclusively available to wealthier organizations.

Acrobat Pro pricing for non-volume licenses starts at $159 for education customers, which I don't think locks out all but the most wealthy customers. Prices are more for business customers, but again there are volume discounts.

Web developers are not being encouraged to create accessible experiences when Adobe ships Flash, Flex, and Dreamweaver with accessibility features turned off, and when the features that can be made accessible are such a small percentage of the feature-set.

The upcoming Flex 4 enables accessibility by default.
Dreamweaver has enabled accessibility features by default for the last two releases.
Flash files don't need accessibility to be enabled.

AWK

-Julie Strothman
User Experience Researcher and Designer
Landmark College
Putney VT

>>> Andrew Kirkpatrick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > 01/26/10 11:00 AM >>>
Modifying tags does require Acrobat Pro, but tags are added in Acrobat Standard.

Thanks,
AWK

Andrew Kirkpatrick

Senior Product Manager, Accessibility

Adobe Systems

= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =


-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Julie Strothman
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 10:55 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDFs that read one word per line

It's true that we all need to advocate for use of best practices during
authorship.
However, as long as adding and modifying tags is only available as a premium
feature, Adobe's message is that accessibility is non-standard.


On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 10:10 AM, Andrew Kirkpatrick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:

> > I like that , PDFu, I'll start using it as it is very fitting.
>
> You've been outspoken in your criticism of PDF and Adobe on this list, and
> that's fine because we are making software for our users and it improves
> when we talk with and listen to our users. It is exciting and gratifying to
> get productive feedback from users who discuss their issues with us and then
> see improvements in the products that help address those issues. However, I
> don't think that adding a letter to make a double entendre out of PDF is
> going to help these conversations remain productive no matter how frustrated
> you are with the format.
>
> > I still cant let Adobe off the hook completely because I dont see enough
> from them stating that they need to be made accessible and
> > that it doesn't come accessible right out of the box.
>
> I'm always looking for ways to improve our messages so that PDF files,
> Flash files, and anything else produced by an Adobe product stands an
> improved chance of being accessible. I'm sure that I've said things like
> "if you follow best practices during authoring then your PDF file can be
> accessible" but perhaps others are saying that PDF is a magic format that
> compensates for author's neglect of accessibility. I'm happy to take
> suggestions.
>
> Thanks,
> AWK
>
> Andrew Kirkpatrick
>
> Senior Product Manager, Accessibility
>
> Adobe Systems
>
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
>
>
>
>

From: ckrugman@sbcglobal.net
Date: Wed, Jan 27 2010 12:27AM
Subject: Re: PDFs that read one word per line
← Previous message | Next message →

It sounds like much of the trouble you are having is coming from documents
that are scanned images in to a PDF file format. I was able to read the
document you posted with JAWS 11 and IE8 although it was reading one word
per line. It also may depend on the program used to create the PDF files as
some of the cheaper or copycat PDF programs create accessibility problems.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Geof Collis" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 6:47 AM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDFs that read one word per line


> Hi Mike
>
> I like that , PDFu, I'll start using it as it is very fitting.
>
> I think it has gotten worse, 3 months ago when I was using my old
> system, JAWS 6.0 and an earlier version of Adobe Reader I was able to
> at least get some of the text now I get that "open parent document'
> business and it's a crap shoot whether I can read any of it.
>
> I can say from experience that not too many Municipalities in Ontario
> care whether it is accessible, as you say because it is widely
> thought that pdf's are accessible that's all they need to know and
> telling them any different falls on deaf ears and trying to sell them
> on how to create accessible ones is a harder sell than web accessibility.
>
> I still cant let Adobe off the hook completely because I dont see
> enough from them stating that they need to be made accessible and
> that it doesn't come accessible right out of the box.
>
> cheers
>
> Geof
>
> At 09:29 AM 1/26/2010, you wrote:
>>Hi Geof
>>
>>Believe me we feel your pain. The vast majority of PDFs are created
>>with no regard for accessibility. And there is a huge misconception
>>that all PDFs are accessible. Thus there is an attitude among many
>>users that all I need to do to post an accessible version of any
>>document is convert it to PDF. Add to that the number of automated,
>>database driven reporting tools that publish to a totally
>>inaccessible PDF format and you have a situation that has led many
>>of my friends who use screen readers to add the letter "U" to the
>>end of the PDF acronym.
>>
>>Adobe is not wholly responsible for this mess. They don't create the
>>reporting tools, and they are not responsible for teaching folks to
>>use their document creation and PDF conversion tools properly. They
>>don't even make all of the tools that create PDFs from Office
>>documents. The do promote PDF as an accessible format though, and
>>unfortunately their success has made the Adobe name synonymous with
>>PDF in the eyes of the general public.
>>
>>We are taking a holistic approach to the problem. First we provide
>>training to people in how to use their MS Office tools properly to
>>create well structured documents. Next we teach them how to use
>>those well structured documents to create accessible PDFs, and HTML
>>documents and how to make judgments about which format is
>>appropriate for the intended audience. We encourage document authors
>>to make materials available in multiple formats to meet the needs of
>>a variety of users. Once people see how easy it is to create
>>documents that are accessible in their native format, and then
>>easily convert them to accessible PDF and HTML then we have a
>>community that is creating a document library that is easier to use
>>and to maintain. That's our theory anyway, ask me again in about a
>>year how well we are doing.
>>
>>As for the automated reporting tools... we test, we report, and we
>>try to influence the manufacturers of the tools to do a better job.
>>
>>Mike Moore
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Geof Collis
>>Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 8:07 AM
>>To: WebAIM Discussion List
>>Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDFs that read one word per line
>>
>>Hi All
>>
>>Further to this post, why am I having such trouble with these pdf
>>documents even though I have the latest Adobe Reader and JAWS 10, I
>>keep getting documents like this that I cannot navigate, I hear open
>>parent document" and I hit enter and all I hear is "1 or some other
>>number, even though I was able to read the document from the
>>beginning. I'm never sure if I have read the whole document.
>>
>>In a previous document I hit tab and it opened some part of the
>>document but this one didn't, I'm finding no consistency in pdf's
>>lately other than they are not very accessible.
>>
>>cheers
>>
>>Geof
>>
>>

From: Geof Collis
Date: Wed, Jan 27 2010 5:24AM
Subject: Re: PDFs that read one word per line
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Chuck

It started reading one line at a time but when I got to what I
thought was the end it said "open parent document" and when hit enter
that was the end of me being able to read it, nothing I tried cold
get it back.

cheers

Geof

From: Jennison Mark Asuncion
Date: Wed, Jan 27 2010 6:15AM
Subject: Re: PDFs that read one word per line
← Previous message | Next message →

Hello,

I'm late to the discussion, so apologies if this has already been covered
off - when I read that "open parent document" was spoken, the first thing
that springs to mind is that the PDF likely has launched in your browser
VS directly through the PDF reader. While I know the browser-based
experience has improved with upgrades to JAWS (can't speak to other screen
readers), I always save PDFs locally and launch them with the reader when
ever possible.

Jennison

From: E.J. Zufelt
Date: Wed, Jan 27 2010 6:24AM
Subject: Re: PDFs that read one word per line
← Previous message | Next message →

Good morning,

Agreed. I imagine you're using IE 8. I believe that Acrobat reader
provides a preference, perhaps in the accessibility configuration, to
not load documents in a browser.

HTH,
Everett

Follow me on Twitter
http://twitter.com/ezufelt

View my LinkedIn Profile
http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt



On 27-Jan-10, at 8:13 AM, Jennison Mark Asuncion wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I'm late to the discussion, so apologies if this has already been
> covered
> off - when I read that "open parent document" was spoken, the first
> thing
> that springs to mind is that the PDF likely has launched in your
> browser
> VS directly through the PDF reader. While I know the browser-based
> experience has improved with upgrades to JAWS (can't speak to other
> screen
> readers), I always save PDFs locally and launch them with the reader
> when
> ever possible.
>
> Jennison
>
>

From: Geof Collis
Date: Wed, Jan 27 2010 7:09AM
Subject: Re: PDFs that read one word per line
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Jennison


Thanks will look for the settings.

cheers

Geof
At 08:13 AM 1/27/2010, you wrote:
>Hello,
>
>I'm late to the discussion, so apologies if this has already been covered
>off - when I read that "open parent document" was spoken, the first thing
>that springs to mind is that the PDF likely has launched in your browser
>VS directly through the PDF reader. While I know the browser-based
>experience has improved with upgrades to JAWS (can't speak to other screen
>readers), I always save PDFs locally and launch them with the reader when
>ever possible.
>
>Jennison
>
>

From: ejp10
Date: Wed, Jan 27 2010 2:54PM
Subject: Re: PDFs that read one word per line
← Previous message | Next message →

I agree with Julie that Adobe is inadverdently sending out a bad
message about PDF accessibility.

I have attempted to create an accessible PDF, but it is neither cheap
or easy. Even if you have the correct version of Acrobat (which can be
pricy for some academics), the tools are buried in an "Advanced" menu,
at least on the Mac side. What does THAT say about accessibility?

In addition - It's one thing to hope that a professional Web developer
will figure out the toolset enough to create an accessible PDF. It's
something else to expect a non-specialist to do it...but that's the
source of many PDFs. An instructor, administrative assistant pushes a
convert to PDF button and voila a PDF, but usually not an accessible
one. I'm not sure there's even an easy method on a Mac (the Print as
PDF on the Mac does NOT recognize and tag Heading 2 tags in Word).

It's ironic because Adobe has one the better development tools for
accessibility - Dreamweaver. The accessibility features are usually
enabled by default in recent versions, and once they are, many
accessibility accomodations for HTML can be enabled by filling in a
form field as you insert or create an item.

Because of this, I generally recommend avoiding PDF unless there's a
compelling reason for it. It's still so much easier to accessify and
verify HTML documents

Elizabeth


> From: "Julie Strothman" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Date: January 26, 2010 11:20:38 AM EST
> To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDFs that read one word per line
> Reply-To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>
>
> Tags are automatically added in Standard by Acrobat, yes. But I
> thought that new tags could only be added in Professional?
>
> Adobe claims that "Adobe is an industry leader in accessibility and
> supports the creation of outstanding web experiences by encouraging
> web developers to produce rich, engaging content that is accessible
> to all."
> This does not jibe with making accessibility features exclusively
> available to wealthier organizations.
> Web developers are not being encouraged to create accessible
> experiences when Adobe ships Flash, Flex, and Dreamweaver with
> accessibility features turned off, and when the features that can be
> made accessible are such a small percentage of the feature-set.
>
> -Julie Strothman
> User Experience Researcher and Designer
> Landmark College
> Putney VT
>
>>>> Andrew Kirkpatrick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > 01/26/10 11:00 AM >>>
> Modifying tags does require Acrobat Pro, but tags are added in
> Acrobat Standard.
>
> Thanks,
> AWK
>
> Andrew Kirkpatrick
>
> Senior Product Manager, Accessibility
>
> Adobe Systems
>
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
>
>

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Elizabeth J. Pyatt, Ph.D.
Instructional Designer
Education Technology Services, TLT/ITS
Penn State University
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = , (814) 865-0805 or (814) 865-2030 (Main Office)

210 Rider Building (formerly Rider II)
227 W. Beaver Avenue
State College, PA 16801-4819
http://www.personal.psu.edu/ejp10/psu
http://tlt.psu.edu

From: Bevi Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Wed, Jan 27 2010 3:45PM
Subject: Re: PDFs that read one word per line
← Previous message | Next message →

Elizabeth wrote:
" I agree with Julie that Adobe is inadvertently sending out a bad message
about PDF accessibility. ... An instructor, administrative assistant pushes
a convert to PDF button and voila a PDF, but usually not an accessible
one..."

In no way do I intend to justify Adobe's actions.

But so much of a PDF's accessibility depends upon how well the source
document was created (i.e., Word, Excel, InDesign documents) and has little
to do with Adobe's software itself.

In Dreamweaver, a web developer is constructing the document (the HTML page)
from scratch and it becomes the deliverable. So it's relatively easy to
build in accessibility from the start when you're creating a webpage.

But in Word, InDesign, or other software, someone is creating a source
document from which the PDF is then exported. It's more difficult to add
accessibility after the fact, after the PDF is made, then it is when you're
creating the original source document in, say, Word.

Bottom line: A poorly structured Word or InDesign document will create an
inaccessible PDF.

--Bevi Chagnon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. .
Bevi Chagnon | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = | www.PubCom.com
Consultants + Trainers + Designers | for print, web, marketing, Acrobat, &
508
PublishingDC Group Co-Moderator |
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PublishingDC
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. .

From: Karlen Communications
Date: Wed, Jan 27 2010 5:42PM
Subject: Re: PDFs that read one word per line
← Previous message | Next message →

I agree, accessibility is built into the source document and that structure
is converted to tagged PDF using the MakeAccessible plug-in through the menu
bar and Ribbons in Office applications. It is more time consuming when you
have to add the Tags to an untagged PDF and make repairs to unstructured
documents.

For Microsoft Office 2010 there is an accessibility checker for Word,
PowerPoint and Excel:
http://blogs.technet.com/office2010/archive/2010/01/07/office-2010-accessibi
lity-investments-document-accessibility.aspx Microsoft also has a Save as
PDF or XPS plug-in to generate tagged PDF from Word, PowerPoint or Excel -
not sure of 2003 compatibility as I use Office 2007.
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=4d951911-3e7e-4ae6-
b059-a2e79ed87041&displaylang=en

We are moving toward better designed documents in general and the draft
refresh of Section 508 does include documents from word processing,
presentation and spreadsheet applications so we will get better at creating
documents with structure.

There are some "missing pieces" in Office for Mac 2004 and 2008. Primarily
you can't add Alt text to images in Word. You will need to do this in
Acrobat. I haven't worked in the Mac environment with tagging PDF but it
should come across my plate this year.

BTW if you Print to Adobe PDF you will get an untagged PDF. You will need to
add the Tags in Acrobat.

We are on a learning curve to unlearn those bad habits we developed from
"Just in Time" training that had us creating things that looked good but
fell apart easily. As we learn, we'll get better at it and will have more
tools as we recognize what we need to create more accessible documents.

I guess the key is that there are people, at Adobe and Microsoft and other
companies, who are working toward the same goals we are.

Cheers, Karen

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Bevi Chagnon |
PubCom
Sent: January-27-10 5:43 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDFs that read one word per line

Elizabeth wrote:
" I agree with Julie that Adobe is inadvertently sending out a bad message
about PDF accessibility. ... An instructor, administrative assistant pushes
a convert to PDF button and voila a PDF, but usually not an accessible
one..."

In no way do I intend to justify Adobe's actions.

But so much of a PDF's accessibility depends upon how well the source
document was created (i.e., Word, Excel, InDesign documents) and has little
to do with Adobe's software itself.

In Dreamweaver, a web developer is constructing the document (the HTML page)
from scratch and it becomes the deliverable. So it's relatively easy to
build in accessibility from the start when you're creating a webpage.

But in Word, InDesign, or other software, someone is creating a source
document from which the PDF is then exported. It's more difficult to add
accessibility after the fact, after the PDF is made, then it is when you're
creating the original source document in, say, Word.

Bottom line: A poorly structured Word or InDesign document will create an
inaccessible PDF.

--Bevi Chagnon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. .
Bevi Chagnon | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = | www.PubCom.com
Consultants + Trainers + Designers | for print, web, marketing, Acrobat, &
508
PublishingDC Group Co-Moderator |
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PublishingDC
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. .

From: Geof Collis
Date: Wed, Jan 27 2010 6:15PM
Subject: Re: PDFs that read one word per line
← Previous message | Next message →

What are people using to check to see if a pdf is accessible?

cheers

Geof

From: Geoff Freed
Date: Wed, Jan 27 2010 7:15PM
Subject: Re: PDFs that read one word per line
← Previous message | Next message →

One further point about creating properly structured source documents using a word processor: use OpenOffice rather than Word. It overcomes the biggest obstacles with using Word to create PDF sources:

1. It works on both Mac and Windows
2. You can add alt to images on Mac (and Windows, of course), saving the time of doing it in Acrobat
3. You can completely tag data tables, saving the time of finishing them in Acrobat
4. The tags are always accurate
5. There are no plug-ins or add-ons to download

Point #2 alone is worth the brief time it takes to download and install the software. It's also free: http://www.openoffice.org/ . I stopped using Word --> PDF over a year ago and have had few, if any problems.

Geoff Freed
WGBH/NCAM

From: ckrugman@sbcglobal.net
Date: Thu, Jan 28 2010 12:24AM
Subject: Re: PDFs that read one word per line
← Previous message | Next message →

I didn't go all the way to the end so I missed that part.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Geof Collis" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 4:23 AM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDFs that read one word per line


> Hi Chuck
>
> It started reading one line at a time but when I got to what I
> thought was the end it said "open parent document" and when hit enter
> that was the end of me being able to read it, nothing I tried cold
> get it back.
>
> cheers
>
> Geof
>
>

From: Karlen Communications
Date: Thu, Jan 28 2010 3:21AM
Subject: Re: PDFs that read one word per line
← Previous message | Next message →

It is recommended that people develop a quality assurance process that
combines human based checking with the accessibility full check. The
Accessibility Full check is a mechanical tool like the HTML validators and
checks for the things that can be checked mechanically. Just as with HTML
you also need someone to take a look at the Tags and make sure they are
correct and that all content that is essential to the understanding of the
content has been tagged and tagged correctly.

The PDF/UA [Universal Access] is developing standards for accessible PDF.
http://pdf.editme.com/pdfuaspec

Many organizations develop standards and guidelines for PDF documents based
on legislation.

Cheers, Karen

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Geof Collis
Sent: January-27-10 8:09 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDFs that read one word per line

What are people using to check to see if a pdf is accessible?

cheers

Geof

From: ckrugman@sbcglobal.net
Date: Thu, Jan 28 2010 3:24AM
Subject: Re: PDFs that read one word per line
← Previous message | Next message →

How accessible is Open Office for Screen readers? I was under the impression
that there were significant accdessibility problems and therefore did not
try to use it.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoff Freed" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 6:13 PM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDFs that read one word per line


>
> One further point about creating properly structured source documents
> using a word processor: use OpenOffice rather than Word. It overcomes
> the biggest obstacles with using Word to create PDF sources:
>
> 1. It works on both Mac and Windows
> 2. You can add alt to images on Mac (and Windows, of course), saving the
> time of doing it in Acrobat
> 3. You can completely tag data tables, saving the time of finishing them
> in Acrobat
> 4. The tags are always accurate
> 5. There are no plug-ins or add-ons to download
>
> Point #2 alone is worth the brief time it takes to download and install
> the software. It's also free: http://www.openoffice.org/ . I stopped
> using Word --> PDF over a year ago and have had few, if any problems.
>
> Geoff Freed
> WGBH/NCAM
>
>
>
>

From: Mark Magennis
Date: Thu, Jan 28 2010 3:30AM
Subject: Re: PDFs that read one word per line
← Previous message | Next message →

On 26 Jan 2010, at 15:54, Monir ElRayes wrote:

> Once remediated, a PDF document is typically as accessible as an
> equivalent HTML document.

Only if you are in a closed space (e.g. a company Intranet) where you
can guarantee what assistive technologies users (your employees) have
available to them. Or if your definition of "accessible" doesn't
relate to real users and their real situations. For PDFs on public
websites, your statement is false. Correctly structured and fully
tagged PDFs are typically NOT as accessible as an equivalent HTML
document.

For real world accessibility, you have to embrace the notion of
"accessibility support", which is the extent to which users' assistive
technologies can read and interact with a given type of content (e.g.
an image or an interactive form) in a given format (e.g. HTML or PDF).
PDF does not have the same level of accessibility support as HTML
does. The use of PDF for types of content other than plain text is not
as well supported by assistive technologies as the use of HTML for the
same types of content. For example, you can create an interactive
application form in HTML which can be read and filled in using just
about any assistive technology. But the same form in a PDF may not
work with older assistive technologies which many people with
disabilities still have. In Ireland, for example, we estimate that
about 65% of JAWS screen reader users have versions 5 to 7. If they
had the latest version, JAWS 11, then they would be able to fill in
the PDF version of the form as easily as the HTML version. But they
don't. So even a correctly structured and fully tagged PDF on a public
website will not have the same level of real world accessibility as a
correctly marked up HTML version, if it uses types of content that are
less accessibility supported.

Mark


********************************************************************
National Council for the Blind of Ireland (NCBI) is a company
limited by guarantee (registered in Ireland No. 26293) .
Our registered office is at Whitworth Road, Drumcondra, Dublin 9.
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From: Monir ElRayes
Date: Thu, Jan 28 2010 4:15AM
Subject: Re: PDFs that read one word per line
← Previous message | Next message →

On 28 Jan 2010, at 5:30 AM, Mark Magennis wrote:

> Correctly structured and fully tagged PDFs are typically NOT as accessible
as an equivalent HTML
> document.

This is because in most cases these PDFs are not truly properly structured.
The problem is simply this: Making PDF accessible is much harder to do
manually (i.e. using just Acrobat) than HTML. Hence the large number of
non-accessible PDFs out there. This is due to the fact that PDF is
inherently a much more complex format than HTML. People confuse this with
the PDF format not being capable of providing the same level of support for
accessibility as HTML. Using the right tools, PDF files, including those
containing complex data tables, can be read correctly using Screen Readers
and the Read Out Loud feature of Acrobat.

My company develops software tools for HTML and PDF accessibility and I can
tell you that our experience, based on remediating tens of thousands of
PDFs, is that PDF can be made as accessible to end users as HTML when the
right tools are used. Granted that most PDFs out there are not accessible
and there is lots of confusion and frustration due to the difficulty of the
task (when done manually).

Cheers,
Monir

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Mark Magennis
Sent: January-28-10 5:30 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDFs that read one word per line


On 26 Jan 2010, at 15:54, Monir ElRayes wrote:

> Once remediated, a PDF document is typically as accessible as an
> equivalent HTML document.

Only if you are in a closed space (e.g. a company Intranet) where you
can guarantee what assistive technologies users (your employees) have
available to them. Or if your definition of "accessible" doesn't
relate to real users and their real situations. For PDFs on public
websites, your statement is false. Correctly structured and fully
tagged PDFs are typically NOT as accessible as an equivalent HTML
document.

For real world accessibility, you have to embrace the notion of
"accessibility support", which is the extent to which users' assistive
technologies can read and interact with a given type of content (e.g.
an image or an interactive form) in a given format (e.g. HTML or PDF).
PDF does not have the same level of accessibility support as HTML
does. The use of PDF for types of content other than plain text is not
as well supported by assistive technologies as the use of HTML for the
same types of content. For example, you can create an interactive
application form in HTML which can be read and filled in using just
about any assistive technology. But the same form in a PDF may not
work with older assistive technologies which many people with
disabilities still have. In Ireland, for example, we estimate that
about 65% of JAWS screen reader users have versions 5 to 7. If they
had the latest version, JAWS 11, then they would be able to fill in
the PDF version of the form as easily as the HTML version. But they
don't. So even a correctly structured and fully tagged PDF on a public
website will not have the same level of real world accessibility as a
correctly marked up HTML version, if it uses types of content that are
less accessibility supported.

Mark


********************************************************************
National Council for the Blind of Ireland (NCBI) is a company
limited by guarantee (registered in Ireland No. 26293) .
Our registered office is at Whitworth Road, Drumcondra, Dublin 9.
NCBI is also a registered Charity (chy4626).

NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments
is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of
the content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify
the sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to
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NCBI endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated
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Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email
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From: Monir ElRayes
Date: Thu, Jan 28 2010 4:24AM
Subject: Re: PDFs that read one word per line
← Previous message | Next message →

The full accessibility checker produces too many false passes as it cannot
check for many structural issues in PDF. Human based checking (without the
help of proper tools) is simply too time consuming and requires a skill set
that average users do not possess.

What is really needed is a tool-based methodical approach to making PDF
accessible that combines tool checking and remediation with assisted user
input. The CommonLook tool
(http://net-centric.com/products/cl_s508_adobe.aspx) does that.

Cheers,
Monir

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Karlen
Communications
Sent: January-28-10 5:20 AM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDFs that read one word per line

It is recommended that people develop a quality assurance process that
combines human based checking with the accessibility full check. The
Accessibility Full check is a mechanical tool like the HTML validators and
checks for the things that can be checked mechanically. Just as with HTML
you also need someone to take a look at the Tags and make sure they are
correct and that all content that is essential to the understanding of the
content has been tagged and tagged correctly.

The PDF/UA [Universal Access] is developing standards for accessible PDF.
http://pdf.editme.com/pdfuaspec

Many organizations develop standards and guidelines for PDF documents based
on legislation.

Cheers, Karen

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Geof Collis
Sent: January-27-10 8:09 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDFs that read one word per line

What are people using to check to see if a pdf is accessible?

cheers

Geof

From: Mark Magennis
Date: Thu, Jan 28 2010 4:42AM
Subject: Re: PDFs that read one word per line
← Previous message | Next message →

On 28 Jan 2010, at 11:12, Monir ElRayes wrote:

>> Correctly structured and fully tagged PDFs are typically NOT as
>> accessible
>> as an equivalent HTML document.
>>
> This is because in most cases these PDFs are not truly properly
> structured.

This is only half the story, not the full reason. There's more to it
than that, and that is the concept of "accessibility support", which
is central to any discussion about the accessibility of PDFs but
missing from what you have said.

> Using the right tools, PDF files, including those
> containing complex data tables, can be read correctly using Screen
> Readers

My point is that this statement is incorrect as it stands. It would be
correct to say "some screen readers" but not to generalise to "screen
readers". As I pointed out in my statistics for Ireland, complex data
tables in PDF files may only be able to be read correctly by something
like 35% of screen readers in this country. I'm not sure whether 35%
is right because I don't know the full details of accessibility
support for PDF data tables in screen readers, or even exactly what
versions of screen readers people have.

Monir, you have to factor in the concept of "accessibility support",
because that gives the essential context within which statements about
the accessibility of PDFs of any other online technology can be judged
as true or false.

All the best,
Mark




********************************************************************
National Council for the Blind of Ireland (NCBI) is a company
limited by guarantee (registered in Ireland No. 26293) .
Our registered office is at Whitworth Road, Drumcondra, Dublin 9.
NCBI is also a registered Charity (chy4626).

NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments
is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of
the content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify
the sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to
delete it and any attachments from your system.

NCBI endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated
by its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However,
it cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are
transmitted. We therefore recommend you scan all attachments.

Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email
and any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily
represent the views of NCBI


********************************************************************

From: Geof Collis
Date: Thu, Jan 28 2010 5:27AM
Subject: Re: PDFs that read one word per line
← Previous message | Next message →

I'm never sure if it is the end and I'm never sure if I've read the
whole thing.

cheers

Geof

From: Geof Collis
Date: Thu, Jan 28 2010 5:33AM
Subject: Re: PDFs that read one word per line
← Previous message | Next message →

I'm just interested in being able to do a cursory check on a pdf ,
not a full blown assessment, I can tell if it is not accessible I
just want to be able to at least verify it at a basic level.

cheers

Geof



At 05:20 AM 1/28/2010, you wrote:
>It is recommended that people develop a quality assurance process that
>combines human based checking with the accessibility full check. The
>Accessibility Full check is a mechanical tool like the HTML validators and
>checks for the things that can be checked mechanically. Just as with HTML
>you also need someone to take a look at the Tags and make sure they are
>correct and that all content that is essential to the understanding of the
>content has been tagged and tagged correctly.
>
>The PDF/UA [Universal Access] is developing standards for accessible PDF.
>http://pdf.editme.com/pdfuaspec
>
>Many organizations develop standards and guidelines for PDF documents based
>on legislation.
>
>Cheers, Karen
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Geof Collis
>Sent: January-27-10 8:09 PM
>To: WebAIM Discussion List
>Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDFs that read one word per line
>
>What are people using to check to see if a pdf is accessible?
>
>cheers
>
>Geof
>
>

From: Geoff Freed
Date: Thu, Jan 28 2010 6:21AM
Subject: Re: PDFs that read one word per line
← Previous message | Next message →

Steve Jacobson posted a good summary of OpenOffice's accessibility pros and cons at http://www.nfbnet.org/pipermail/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/2009-May/005119.html . As a tool to produce accessible PDFs, I think OpenOffice is excellent. Its accessibility as an application (on both Mac and Windows) is reasonable but not without faults, however; whether it's better or worse than Word will be up to you to decide. Give it a try and let us know what you think.

Geoff/NCAM



On 1/28/10 5:23 AM, " = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = " < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

How accessible is Open Office for Screen readers? I was under the impression
that there were significant accdessibility problems and therefore did not
try to use it.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoff Freed" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 6:13 PM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDFs that read one word per line


>
> One further point about creating properly structured source documents
> using a word processor: use OpenOffice rather than Word. It overcomes
> the biggest obstacles with using Word to create PDF sources:
>
> 1. It works on both Mac and Windows
> 2. You can add alt to images on Mac (and Windows, of course), saving the
> time of doing it in Acrobat
> 3. You can completely tag data tables, saving the time of finishing them
> in Acrobat
> 4. The tags are always accurate
> 5. There are no plug-ins or add-ons to download
>
> Point #2 alone is worth the brief time it takes to download and install
> the software. It's also free: http://www.openoffice.org/ . I stopped
> using Word --> PDF over a year ago and have had few, if any problems.
>
> Geoff Freed
> WGBH/NCAM
>
>
>
>

From: Monir ElRayes
Date: Thu, Jan 28 2010 6:30AM
Subject: Re: PDFs that read one word per line
← Previous message | No next message

These are good points Mark. Thank you for pointing them out. I guess Adobe
and some screen tool vendors have more work to do to provide better
"accessibility support".

Cheers,
Monir


-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Mark Magennis
Sent: January-28-10 6:42 AM
To: Webaim Forum
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDFs that read one word per line

On 28 Jan 2010, at 11:12, Monir ElRayes wrote:

>> Correctly structured and fully tagged PDFs are typically NOT as
>> accessible
>> as an equivalent HTML document.
>>
> This is because in most cases these PDFs are not truly properly
> structured.

This is only half the story, not the full reason. There's more to it
than that, and that is the concept of "accessibility support", which
is central to any discussion about the accessibility of PDFs but
missing from what you have said.

> Using the right tools, PDF files, including those
> containing complex data tables, can be read correctly using Screen
> Readers

My point is that this statement is incorrect as it stands. It would be
correct to say "some screen readers" but not to generalise to "screen
readers". As I pointed out in my statistics for Ireland, complex data
tables in PDF files may only be able to be read correctly by something
like 35% of screen readers in this country. I'm not sure whether 35%
is right because I don't know the full details of accessibility
support for PDF data tables in screen readers, or even exactly what
versions of screen readers people have.

Monir, you have to factor in the concept of "accessibility support",
because that gives the essential context within which statements about
the accessibility of PDFs of any other online technology can be judged
as true or false.

All the best,
Mark




********************************************************************
National Council for the Blind of Ireland (NCBI) is a company
limited by guarantee (registered in Ireland No. 26293) .
Our registered office is at Whitworth Road, Drumcondra, Dublin 9.
NCBI is also a registered Charity (chy4626).

NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments
is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of
the content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify
the sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to
delete it and any attachments from your system.

NCBI endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated
by its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However,
it cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are
transmitted. We therefore recommend you scan all attachments.

Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email
and any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily
represent the views of NCBI


********************************************************************