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Thread: Research proposal: Accessibility support for PDF, Flash, etc.

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Number of posts in this thread: 14 (In chronological order)

From: Mark Magennis
Date: Tue, Feb 23 2010 4:30AM
Subject: Research proposal: Accessibility support for PDF, Flash, etc.
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Non-HTML web technologies such as PDF and Flash often present
significant barriers for users with disabilities when used to present
certain types of content or functionality. The key issue is
'accessibility support' - the extent to which these uses are supported
by the access technologies that disabled web users have available to
them. There is little known about current real world levels of
accessibility support within different user populations. This is a
complex issue that desperately needs researching.

We have drafted an outline proposal for some research in this area.
Our idea is to start by facilitating someone in undertaking an MSc by
research in order to systematically and comprehensively measure levels
of support and to investigate some of the surrounding issues. We know
that a good number of people and organizations are already interested
in this area and are researching it themselves. So we would like to
invite collaboration, both to refine our research proposal and to
share any efforts and results that come out of this.

The proposal is on our website at www.cfit.ie and permanently stored
at http://www.cfit.ie/news-and-commentary-archive/293-accessibility-support-research
.

We welcome any comments, criticisms or collaborations.

By the way, should anyone get the impression that this is an attack or
criticism of Adobe, you're wrong. We acknowledge the real efforts
Adobe have made and continue to make in the accessibility of PDF and
Flash. The reason we single out these two Adobe technologies is simply
due to their importance on the web and the consequent seriousness of
any accessibility barriers that arise in their use. The research
approach could be applied equally well to any other important non-HTML
technologies.

Mark Magennis
NCBI Centre for Inclusive Technology (CFIT)
www.cfit.ie

********************************************************************
National Council for the Blind of Ireland (NCBI) is a company
limited by guarantee (registered in Ireland No. 26293) .
Our registered office is at Whitworth Road, Drumcondra, Dublin 9.
NCBI is also a registered Charity (chy4626).

NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments
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and any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily
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********************************************************************

From: Jennison Mark Asuncion
Date: Tue, Feb 23 2010 7:03AM
Subject: Re: Research proposal: Accessibility support for PDF, Flash, etc.
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Mark,

What a great research effort. I have just tweeted about it, so hopefully
that will widen exposure. I will also post a link to the proposal to the
Web 2.0 Accessibility Forum group on LinkedIn.

Will you or any of your colleagues be at the CSUN Conference in March?

Jennison

--
Jennison Mark Asuncion
Co-Director, Adaptech Research Network <www.adaptech.org>
Google Profile at <www.google.com/profiles/itaccessibility>
LinkedIn at <www.linkedin.com/in/jennison>

From: Jennison Mark Asuncion
Date: Tue, Feb 23 2010 7:09AM
Subject: Re: Research proposal: Accessibility support for PDF, Flash, etc.
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Hi there,

Sorry folks for sending out that note intended for Mark to the list.


--
Jennison Mark Asuncion
Co-Director, Adaptech Research Network <www.adaptech.org>
Google Profile at <www.google.com/profiles/itaccessibility>
LinkedIn at <www.linkedin.com/in/jennison>

From: Birkir Gunnarsson
Date: Tue, Feb 23 2010 7:21AM
Subject: Re: Research proposal: Accessibility support for PDF, Flash, etc.
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Hi

Very good idea for research. I would include ODF (Open Document Format)
along with Adobe and Flash, since I, increasingly, here about it being used
as de facto standard in some countries for government papers. I have heard
that with a MS Word plug in this standard is no problem, but I feel
accessibility needs to be considered early and extensively if this
standard´s use is spreading.
Regarding possible candidates for the job and source of funding, have you
contacted the new Master´s program that CSUN is setting up? It seems like a
perfect project for someone undertaking that degree at that place so there
might be collaboration interest there.
I will attend CSUN (as will many listers I am sure) and I know there is a
presentation on that degree there, so perhapd one could discuss this idea
with them, or at least point it out.
Thanks and good luck, I, for one, will certainly contribute as much as I can
when something a little more specific is called for.
Cheers
-B

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Jennison Mark
Asuncion
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 8:09 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Research proposal: Accessibility support for PDF,
Flash, etc.

Hi there,

Sorry folks for sending out that note intended for Mark to the list.


--
Jennison Mark Asuncion
Co-Director, Adaptech Research Network <www.adaptech.org>
Google Profile at <www.google.com/profiles/itaccessibility>
LinkedIn at <www.linkedin.com/in/jennison>

From: Joshue O Connor
Date: Tue, Feb 23 2010 7:51AM
Subject: Re: Research proposal: Accessibility support for PDF, Flash, etc.
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Birkir Gunnarsson wrote:
> Very good idea for research. I would include ODF (Open Document Format)
> along with Adobe and Flash, since I, increasingly, here about it being used
> as de facto standard in some countries for government papers.

Yes, good call.

Cheers

Josh


********************************************************************
National Council for the Blind of Ireland (NCBI) is a company
limited by guarantee (registered in Ireland No. 26293) .
Our registered office is at Whitworth Road, Drumcondra, Dublin 9.
NCBI is also a registered Charity (chy4626).

NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments
is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of
the content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify
the sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to
delete it and any attachments from your system.

NCBI endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated
by its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However,
it cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are
transmitted. We therefore recommend you scan all attachments.

Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email
and any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily
represent the views of NCBI


********************************************************************

From: Mark Magennis
Date: Tue, Feb 23 2010 8:12AM
Subject: Re: Research proposal: Accessibility support for PDF, Flash, etc.
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On 23 Feb 2010, at 13:22, Birkir Gunnarsson wrote:

> Regarding possible candidates for the job and source of funding,
> have you
> contacted the new Master´s program that CSUN is setting up?

Our preferred option would be to support someone here in Ireland. For
the close contact that will facilitate and also because an initial
focus on the Irish situation will best fulfil our own immediate needs
that have prompted us to consider this research. But any collaboration
is welcome and it is an international problem.

Thanks for your offer of support Birkir.

Mark


********************************************************************
National Council for the Blind of Ireland (NCBI) is a company
limited by guarantee (registered in Ireland No. 26293) .
Our registered office is at Whitworth Road, Drumcondra, Dublin 9.
NCBI is also a registered Charity (chy4626).

NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments
is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of
the content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify
the sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to
delete it and any attachments from your system.

NCBI endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated
by its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However,
it cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are
transmitted. We therefore recommend you scan all attachments.

Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email
and any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily
represent the views of NCBI


********************************************************************

From: Moore,Michael (DARS)
Date: Tue, Feb 23 2010 9:12AM
Subject: Re: Research proposal: Accessibility support for PDF, Flash, etc.
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Mark,

I like this research area but I disagree with the with the following statement from your proposal. "But interactive forms in PDF (even when properly tagged) can only be read and filled in by the latest access technologies. Few users have or can afford these latest technologies, so the use of PDF for interactive forms cannot currently be considered accessibility supported for a general web audience."

We have been successfully building and deploying PDF forms using Adobe Designer since 2005. (JAWS 5/6 era). Our testing indicates that they are supported when properly developed even in older technologies. PDF forms offer some advantages over HTML depending upon how they are to be used. For example if a form requires an original signature, or email distribution. Print style sheet support, particularly for older browsers can be an issue and following links in emails is considered a security risk. What your research may reveal is that the best support is provided by offering multiple options for a user. We currently maintain most of our forms in at least two formats. If the primary version of a form is HTML we generally also provide access to the form in PDF or MS word for example.

Support for older technologies will always be an issue, and a thorny one for accessibility given that people with disabilities are disproportionally represented among the population with lower incomes and less access to more advanced technologies. In my opinion these digital divide issues should remain separate from accessibility issues. However if you wish to consider digital divide issues along with the accessibility issues then research into the effectiveness of open source solutions like NVDA, Orca and Ubuntu may be worthwhile.

Mike Moore

From: Birkir Gunnarsson
Date: Tue, Feb 23 2010 9:18AM
Subject: Re: Research proposal: Accessibility support for PDF, Flash, etc.
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Michael

If it is allowed, could you post an interactive pdf form as an attachment to
the list, or to me personally?
I've never come across a pdf frm I can fill in so I'd be curious to see such
a mythical beast, and delighted if it all works.
I have Jaws 8, 10 and 11 on XP sp3 currently.
If it is not possible, no worries, I just find the idea of accessible,
interactive, pdf forms exciting, and so do the banks I am trying to work
with to find a more accessible solution for forms.
Thanks
-Birkir


-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Moore,Michael
(DARS)
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:13 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Research proposal: Accessibility support for PDF,
Flash, etc.

Mark,

I like this research area but I disagree with the with the following
statement from your proposal. "But interactive forms in PDF (even when
properly tagged) can only be read and filled in by the latest access
technologies. Few users have or can afford these latest technologies, so the
use of PDF for interactive forms cannot currently be considered
accessibility supported for a general web audience."

We have been successfully building and deploying PDF forms using Adobe
Designer since 2005. (JAWS 5/6 era). Our testing indicates that they are
supported when properly developed even in older technologies. PDF forms
offer some advantages over HTML depending upon how they are to be used. For
example if a form requires an original signature, or email distribution.
Print style sheet support, particularly for older browsers can be an issue
and following links in emails is considered a security risk. What your
research may reveal is that the best support is provided by offering
multiple options for a user. We currently maintain most of our forms in at
least two formats. If the primary version of a form is HTML we generally
also provide access to the form in PDF or MS word for example.

Support for older technologies will always be an issue, and a thorny one for
accessibility given that people with disabilities are disproportionally
represented among the population with lower incomes and less access to more
advanced technologies. In my opinion these digital divide issues should
remain separate from accessibility issues. However if you wish to consider
digital divide issues along with the accessibility issues then research into
the effectiveness of open source solutions like NVDA, Orca and Ubuntu may be
worthwhile.

Mike Moore

From: Ted
Date: Wed, Feb 24 2010 3:30AM
Subject: Re: Research proposal: Accessibility support for PDF, Flash, etc.
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I agree.

With a little care, PDF forms can be made accessible to older screen readers
(ie JAWS pre version 10). Even blocks of explanatory text can be made
available in "forms mode" relatively easily (and much more so than in HTML).


Ted Page


-----Original Message-----
From: Moore,Michael (DARS) [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: 23 February 2010 15:13
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Research proposal: Accessibility support for PDF,
Flash, etc.


Mark,

I like this research area but I disagree with the with the following
statement from your proposal. "But interactive forms in PDF (even when
properly tagged) can only be read and filled in by the latest access
technologies. Few users have or can afford these latest technologies, so the
use of PDF for interactive forms cannot currently be considered
accessibility supported for a general web audience."

We have been successfully building and deploying PDF forms using Adobe
Designer since 2005. (JAWS 5/6 era). Our testing indicates that they are
supported when properly developed even in older technologies. PDF forms
offer some advantages over HTML depending upon how they are to be used. For
example if a form requires an original signature, or email distribution.
Print style sheet support, particularly for older browsers can be an issue
and following links in emails is considered a security risk. What your
research may reveal is that the best support is provided by offering
multiple options for a user. We currently maintain most of our forms in at
least two formats. If the primary version of a form is HTML we generally
also provide access to the form in PDF or MS word for example.

Support for older technologies will always be an issue, and a thorny one for
accessibility given that people with disabilities are disproportionally
represented among the population with lower incomes and less access to more
advanced technologies. In my opinion these digital divide issues should
remain separate from accessibility issues. However if you wish to consider
digital divide issues along with the accessibility issues then research into
the effectiveness of open source solutions like NVDA, Orca and Ubuntu may be
worthwhile.

Mike Moore

From: Mark Magennis
Date: Wed, Feb 24 2010 5:00AM
Subject: Re: Research proposal: Accessibility support for PDF, Flash, etc.
← Previous message | Next message →

Moore,Michael (DARS) wrote:

> We have been successfully building and deploying PDF forms using
> Adobe Designer since 2005. (JAWS 5/6 era). Our testing indicates
> that they are supported when properly developed even in older
> technologies.

The statement I made about PDF forms not being fully supported was
based on anecdotal evidence and reports of others (e.g. Roger Hudson www.dingoaccess.com/accessibility/accessibility-supported/)
. These suggest that there are problems with PDF forms. However, your
experiences and those of others I have heard of suggest otherwise. So
there may be problems under certain circumstances that don't arise
under others. Hence why I would like to undertake a large scale
systematic investigation.

> In my opinion these digital divide issues should remain separate
> from accessibility issues.

Practically speaking, if you're a local council with a duty and
mandate to serve all of your public, the digital divide issues are
very relevant! In our experience, the people we work with, whether
public or private sector, are more interested in real world
accessibility which encompasses the digital divide and other issues
than they are in theoretical accessibility.

> However if you wish to consider digital divide issues along with the
> accessibility issues then research into the effectiveness of open
> source solutions like NVDA, Orca and Ubuntu may be worthwhile.

Agree very much with this.
Cheers,
Mark

********************************************************************
National Council for the Blind of Ireland (NCBI) is a company
limited by guarantee (registered in Ireland No. 26293) .
Our registered office is at Whitworth Road, Drumcondra, Dublin 9.
NCBI is also a registered Charity (chy4626).

NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments
is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of
the content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify
the sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to
delete it and any attachments from your system.

NCBI endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated
by its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However,
it cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are
transmitted. We therefore recommend you scan all attachments.

Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email
and any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily
represent the views of NCBI


********************************************************************

From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Wed, Feb 24 2010 7:24AM
Subject: Re: Research proposal: Accessibility support for PDF, Flash, etc.
← Previous message | Next message →

The statement I made about PDF forms not being fully supported was
based on anecdotal evidence and reports of others (e.g. Roger Hudson www.dingoaccess.com/accessibility/accessibility-supported/)
. These suggest that there are problems with PDF forms. However, your
experiences and those of others I have heard of suggest otherwise. So
there may be problems under certain circumstances that don't arise
under others. Hence why I would like to undertake a large scale
systematic investigation.

Just to clarify, I'm not reading Roger's post as saying that PDF forms are not accessibility supported, I'm reading that he encountered some issues and he wants greater clarity around what accessibility-supported means for any technology.

He in fact says "At the outset, I would like to make it clear that although this test involved PDF forms, my comments are not intended as a reflection on the general use or accessibility of PDF and could equally apply to any other web technology."

Accessibility support is a very tricky topic, and I'm glad that you are interested in getting this study going, I'm sure it will be interesting and Adobe will certainly be sharing information that will help your efforts - we have a heap of data that I'm publishing in the next week or two.

Thanks,
AWK

Andrew Kirkpatrick
Senior Product Manager, Accessibility
Adobe Systems

= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://twitter.com/awkawk
http://blogs.adobe.com/accessibility

From: Moore,Michael (DARS)
Date: Wed, Feb 24 2010 10:24AM
Subject: Re: Research proposal: Accessibility support for PDF, Flash, etc.
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Andrew wrote,

The statement I made about PDF forms not being fully supported was
based on anecdotal evidence and reports of others (e.g. Roger Hudson www.dingoaccess.com/accessibility/accessibility-supported/)

Mike's response,

Roger's post confirms issues that we have seen with "dynamic" PDF forms created using Adobe Designer and accessed with JFW versions 9+. We currently only deploy "static" forms and this does limit functionality that we would like to deploy. However this does not prevent us from deploying PDF forms that are "accessibility supported."

We have been experimenting with dynamic forms for a while, attempting to create forms that will expand text fields when the field is filled, and to create forms that will add additional sections as needed based upon user selections. Neither we, nor our technical support reps at Adobe have been able to come up with a workable solution to date. Andrew, will the data that you are publishing address the issues that we have seen with the dynamic forms?


Mike Moore

From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Wed, Feb 24 2010 10:27AM
Subject: Re: Research proposal: Accessibility support for PDF, Flash, etc.
← Previous message | Next message →

We have been experimenting with dynamic forms for a while, attempting to create forms that will expand text fields when the field is filled, and to create forms that will add additional sections as needed based upon user selections. Neither we, nor our technical support reps at Adobe have been able to come up with a workable solution to date. Andrew, will the data that you are publishing address the issues that we have seen with the dynamic forms?

Mike,
I'll need to talk with your tech support reps to get more information.
AWK

From: Wayne Dick
Date: Thu, Feb 25 2010 11:03PM
Subject: Re: Research proposal: Accessibility support for PDF, Flash, etc.
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Sometimes WebAIM gets too fancy. Forms and other
active features are important issues, but the
biggest issue for people with print disabilities
is reading.
I personally have never had the stamina to finish
one book in PDF. I have tried with with every
current assistive technology, major and obscure.
Actually, the only books I have finished in
for-profit proprietary formats have been books I
have successfully converted to HTML. That
conversion is never seamless.
I read about 20 books a year in with the
non-profit data formats HTML and Daisy. These
include professional titles from Safari Books
Online, recreation from Bookshare and the online
versions of journals like the Journal of Visual
Impairment and Blindness.
I could not read professionally if, as it appears
to be the trend, for-profit data formats take over
the digital library market without accessibility
support. For people with print disabilities,
reading is the line of professional survival.
The companies that develop proprietary formats for
profit really need to contribute significant
funding to create effective assistive technologies
to cover all people with print disabilities.
Nothing has the accessibility support for everyone
like W3C technologies right now. This
Accessibility support project is a great place to
start.
I have tried hard to use PDF, Flash and many other
non-W3C formats for serious reading. I can't do it.

Sincerely,
Wayne Dick PhD., Professor
Department of Computer Engineering and Computer
Science
California State University, Long Beach