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Thread: RE: Reading OPTGROUP with JAWS

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Number of posts in this thread: 10 (In chronological order)

From: Cohen, Lisa A.
Date: Wed, Apr 17 2002 12:36PM
Subject: RE: Reading OPTGROUP with JAWS
No previous message | Next message →

Paul, thank you very much for the suggested techniques.

Andrew, I'm confused...

Does JAWS say the group values (OPTGROUP) for you? Which keystrokes get him
to move to (and say) another OPTGROUP?

Also, I am running IE 5.5 and it doesn't show the OPTGROUP at all... you
see it in bold? Haven't tried 6.0 because most of my government users will
not have it for a while.

Lisa

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Kirkpatrick [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 2:45 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: Reading OPTGROUP with JAWS


Can you define "support" in this case? Netscape 4.7, Opera 5, IE5.5 & 6,
and MacIE5& 5.1 (undoubtedly there are others, these are the ones I checked)
all support optgroup. I've attached a sample file. When viewing this
example in Ie, JAWS reads the options fine.

Mac IE does what I imagine people consider "supporting" optgroup. When the
combo box is opened, four items appear, some with sub-menus. Very clean
visually.

Win IE makes the optgroup name bold and not selectable in its
implementation. A user with a screen reader will hear the optgroup name for
each sub-item, but the information is available. It would be great if
screen readers supported an auitory experience similar to the visual
experience in MacIE.

AWK

On 4/17/02 2:04 PM, Paul Bohman ( = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ) wrote:



The only technology that I'm aware of that supports optgroup is Netscape
6.x. I wish others did, but I don't think they do. Maybe the screen reader
Emacspeak for Unix/Linux does, but I'm not familiar enough with it to know.
Emacspeak has support for everything it seems, so I wouldn't be surprised if
it supports this feature.




-----Original Message-----
From: Cohen, Lisa A. [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 11:38 AM
To: WebAIM forum ( = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = )
Subject: Reading OPTGROUP with JAWS


Hello,
(Apologies for cross-posting... desperately need an answer!)
I need to code a very long listbox in an HTML form. The HTML 4 spec shows
an example of using OPTGROUP to group OPTIONS within SELECT tags. But this
does not appear to work with JAWS (nor does IE 5.5 do anything with
OPTGROUP).




--
Andrew Kirkpatrick, Technical Project Coordinator
CPB/WGBH National Center for Accessible Media
125 Western Ave.
Boston, MA 02134
E-mail: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Web site: ncam.wgbh.org

617-300-4420 (direct voice/FAX)
617-300-3400 (main NCAM)
617-300-2489 (TT

From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Wed, Apr 17 2002 1:47PM
Subject: Re: Reading OPTGROUP with JAWS
← Previous message | Next message →

On 4/17/02 3:29 PM, Cohen, Lisa A. ( = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ) wrote:

> Andrew, I'm confused...
> Does JAWS say the group values (OPTGROUP) for you? Which keystrokes get him
> to move to (and say) another OPTGROUP?
> JAWS only says the group values if you include them as the content of the
> <option> tag. What I

From: Mary Utt
Date: Wed, Apr 17 2002 2:00PM
Subject: labeling form elements for time
← Previous message | Next message →

I am coding a form that asks the user to enter a time of day.
We are using two select boxes, one for hours (0-24) and one for
minutes (:00, :15, :30, :45). They are positioned side by side.

These form elements are logically one item and have one text label
("Starting time"). However, the <label></label> tags are intended one
per form element. I really don't want to provide separate text labels
for each element ("Hours" and "Minutes" -- this isn't even clear --
it sounds like a duration, not a time of day).

Is there a way to label these form elements both logically and
accessibly? Does putting them in a fieldset do the job?

I am open to alternative suggestions for entering time-of-day data in
a form.

Thanks very much.

Mary Utt
SiteScape, Inc.
Maynard, MA USA


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From: Paul Bohman
Date: Wed, Apr 17 2002 2:12PM
Subject: RE: Reading OPTGROUP with JAWS
← Previous message | Next message →

I created a test page to show how well browsers do or do not support
optgroup. IE 6 on Windows, NS 6, IE 5 on Mac do support optgroup, but IE
6 for Mac is the only one that supports labels for option tags. You can
see the test page at:

http://www.webaim.org/paul/test/optgroup.htm

Browser support is important to those who view the page with their eyes,
but for a person using a screen reader, browser support is pretty much
irrelevant. The important aspect is screen reader support. I haven't
conducted a thorough test of all of the screen readers, but I think that
Andrew is right that screen readers will simply ignore the optgroup
groupings and read the options... I don't have quite enough time to test
this out, but this would be the next thing to investigate.

Paul Bohman
Technology Coordinator
WebAIM (Web Accessibility in Mind)
www.webaim.org
Center for Persons with Disabilities
www.cpd.usu.edu
Utah State University
www.usu.edu




-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Kirkpatrick [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 2:44 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: Reading OPTGROUP with JAWS


On 4/17/02 3:29 PM, Cohen, Lisa A. ( = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ) wrote:



Andrew, I'm confused...
Does JAWS say the group values (OPTGROUP) for you? Which keystrokes get
him to move to (and say) another OPTGROUP?
JAWS only says the group values if you include them as the content of
the <option> tag. What I've always heard is that browsers that ignore
optgroup will just read the <option> tag, so including the optgroup name
redundantly is necessary. Browsers such as MacIE will use the label tag
for the display and will not display the redundant information.

IE6 is half and half. It displays the optgroup name, but it doesn't use
the label for the <option>, so the group name is in bold at before the
first item in the optgroup, but then each option also includes the
optgroup name that was included for backward compatibility. If you are
using the keyboard to access the combo box, the optgroup names are
skipped in IE6.

Also, I am running IE 5.5 and it doesn't show the OPTGROUP at all...
you see it in bold? Haven't tried 6.0 because most of my government
users will not have it for a while.

My IE5.5 is tied up, so I can't verify this, but I'm sure you're right.

A correction to my last post - only Mac IE and IE6 are supporting
optgroup as outlined above. The other browsers display adequate
information if the optgroup name is used redundantly for backward
compatibility.

Andrew


-----Original Message-----


From: Andrew Kirkpatrick [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 2:45 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: Reading OPTGROUP with JAWS

Can you define "support" in this case? Netscape 4.7, Opera 5, IE5.5 &
6, and MacIE5& 5.1 (undoubtedly there are others, these are the ones I
checked) all support optgroup. I've attached a sample file. When
viewing this example in Ie, JAWS reads the options fine.

Mac IE does what I imagine people consider "supporting" optgroup. When
the combo box is opened, four items appear, some with sub-menus. Very
clean visually.

Win IE makes the optgroup name bold and not selectable in its
implementation. A user with a screen reader will hear the optgroup name
for each sub-item, but the information is available. It would be great
if screen readers supported an auitory experience similar to the visual
experience in MacIE.

AWK

On 4/17/02 2:04 PM, Paul Bohman ( = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ) wrote:



The only technology that I'm aware of that supports optgroup is Netscape
6.x. I wish others did, but I don't think they do. Maybe the screen
reader Emacspeak for Unix/Linux does, but I'm not familiar enough with
it to know. Emacspeak has support for everything it seems, so I wouldn't
be surprised if it supports this feature.




-----Original Message-----
From: Cohen, Lisa A. [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 11:38 AM
To: WebAIM forum ( = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = )
Subject: Reading OPTGROUP with JAWS


Hello,
(Apologies for cross-posting... desperately need an answer!)
I need to code a very long listbox in an HTML form. The HTML 4 spec
shows an example of using OPTGROUP to group OPTIONS within SELECT tags.
But this does not appear to work with JAWS (nor does IE 5.5 do anything
with OPTGROUP).





--
Andrew Kirkpatrick, Technical Project Coordinator
CPB/WGBH National Center for Accessible Media
125 Western Ave.
Boston, MA 02134
E-mail: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Web site: ncam.wgbh.org

617-300-4420 (direct voice/FAX)
617-300-3400 (main NCAM)
617-300-2489 (TTY)

WGBH enriches people's live

From: Raleigh Way
Date: Wed, Apr 17 2002 4:15PM
Subject: RE: Reading OPTGROUP with JAWS
← Previous message | Next message →

I'll be there, but it is going to take me longer to get there. I
don't get off till 5, and then the drive is right at 2 hours. If you
all start at 6, we'll just show up when we get there. Is that ok?

>I created a test page to show how well browsers do or do not support
>optgroup. IE 6 on Windows, NS 6, IE 5 on Mac do support optgroup,
>but IE 6 for Mac is the only one that supports labels for option
>tags. You can see the test page at:
>
><http://www.webaim.org/paul/test/optgroup.htm>;http://www.webaim.org/paul/test/optgroup.htm
>
>Browser support is important to those who view the page with their
>eyes, but for a person using a screen reader, browser support is
>pretty much irrelevant. The important aspect is screen reader
>support. I haven't conducted a thorough test of all of the screen
>readers, but I think that Andrew is right that screen readers will
>simply ignore the optgroup groupings and read the options... I don't
>have quite enough time to test this out, but this would be the next
>thing to investigate.
>
>
>Paul Bohman
>Technology Coordinator
>WebAIM (Web Accessibility in Mind)
>www.webaim.org
>Center for Persons with Disabilities
>www.cpd.usu.edu
>Utah State University
>www.usu.edu
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Andrew Kirkpatrick [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
>Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 2:44 PM
>To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>Subject: Re: Reading OPTGROUP with JAWS
>
>On 4/17/02 3:29 PM, Cohen, Lisa A. ( = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ) wrote:
>
>Andrew, I'm confused...
>Does JAWS say the group values (OPTGROUP) for you? Which keystrokes
>get him to move to (and say) another OPTGROUP?
>JAWS only says the group values if you include them as the content
>of the <option> tag. What I've always heard is that browsers that
>ignore optgroup will just read the <option> tag, so including the
>optgroup name redundantly is necessary. Browsers such as MacIE will
>use the label tag for the display and will not display the redundant
>information.
>
>IE6 is half and half. It displays the optgroup name, but it doesn't
>use the label for the <option>, so the group name is in bold at
>before the first item in the optgroup, but then each option also
>includes the optgroup name that was included for backward
>compatibility. If you are using the keyboard to access the combo
>box, the optgroup names are skipped in IE6.
>
>Also, I am running IE 5.5 and it doesn't show the OPTGROUP at all...
> you see it in bold? Haven't tried 6.0 because most of my
>government users will not have it for a while.
>
>My IE5.5 is tied up, so I can't verify this, but I'm sure you're right.
>
>A correction to my last post - only Mac IE and IE6 are supporting
>optgroup as outlined above. The other browsers display adequate
>information if the optgroup name is used redundantly for backward
>compatibility.
>
>Andrew
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>
>From: Andrew Kirkpatrick [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
>Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 2:45 PM
>To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>Subject: Re: Reading OPTGROUP with JAWS
>
>Can you define "support" in this case? Netscape 4.7, Opera 5, IE5.5
>& 6, and MacIE5& 5.1 (undoubtedly there are others, these are the
>ones I checked) all support optgroup. I've attached a sample file.
> When viewing this example in Ie, JAWS reads the options fine.
>
>Mac IE does what I imagine people consider "supporting" optgroup.
> When the combo box is opened, four items appear, some with
>sub-menus. Very clean visually.
>
>Win IE makes the optgroup name bold and not selectable in its
>implementation. A user with a screen reader will hear the optgroup
>name for each sub-item, but the information is available. It would
>be great if screen readers supported an auitory experience similar
>to the visual experience in MacIE.
>
>AWK
>
>On 4/17/02 2:04 PM, Paul Bohman ( = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ) wrote:
>
>The only technology that I'm aware of that supports optgroup is
>Netscape 6.x. I wish others did, but I don't think they do. Maybe
>the screen reader Emacspeak for Unix/Linux does, but I'm not
>familiar enough with it to know. Emacspeak has support for
>everything it seems, so I wouldn't be surprised if it supports this
>feature.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Cohen, Lisa A. [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
>Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 11:38 AM
>To: WebAIM forum ( = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = )
>Subject: Reading OPTGROUP with JAWS
>
>
>Hello,
>(Apologies for cross-posting... desperately need an answer!)
>I need to code a very long listbox in an HTML form. The HTML 4 spec
>shows an example of using OPTGROUP to group OPTIONS within SELECT
>tags. But this does not appear to work with JAWS (nor does IE 5.5
>do anything with OPTGROUP).
>
>
>
>--
>Andrew Kirkpatrick, Technical Project Coordinator
>CPB/WGBH National Center for Accessible Media
>125 Western Ave.
>Boston, MA 02134
>E-mail: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>Web site: ncam.wgbh.org
>
>617-300-4420 (direct voice/FAX)
>617-300-3400 (main NCAM)
>617-300-2489 (TTY)
>
>WGBH enriches people's lives through programs and services that
>educate, inspire, and entertai

From: Jim Thatcher
Date: Wed, Apr 17 2002 7:04PM
Subject: RE: labeling form elements for time
← Previous message | Next message →

Mary,

Use the title attribute. It is supported by the major screen readers and
HPR.

This is one of the situations where title is almost required because the
label text doesn't work, like two fields for zip+4 and three for a telephone
number.

This and many other tips in the new book "Constructing Accessible Web
Sites," now available from Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151000/jimthatcherco-20/!
I recommend it. Authors include myself and WebAIM's own Paul Bohman.

Jim
Accessibility Consulting
http://jimthatcher.com
512-306-0931


-----Original Message-----
From: Mary Utt [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 3:58 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Cc: Moi
Subject: labeling form elements for time


I am coding a form that asks the user to enter a time of day.
We are using two select boxes, one for hours (0-24) and one for
minutes (:00, :15, :30, :45). They are positioned side by side.

These form elements are logically one item and have one text label
("Starting time"). However, the <label></label> tags are intended one
per form element. I really don't want to provide separate text labels
for each element ("Hours" and "Minutes" -- this isn't even clear --
it sounds like a duration, not a time of day).

Is there a way to label these form elements both logically and
accessibly? Does putting them in a fieldset do the job?

I am open to alternative suggestions for entering time-of-day data in
a form.

Thanks very much.

Mary Utt
SiteScape, Inc.
Maynard, MA USA


----
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/


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visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/


From: Leo Smith
Date: Thu, Apr 18 2002 5:49AM
Subject: Re: labeling form elements for time
← Previous message | Next message →

Is it permissable to include the "time of day" labeling text and both
<select> form controls _within_ the <label> element?

<form>
<label>
Time of Day:
<select><option></option></select>
<select><option></option></select>
</label>
</form>

Leo.


On 17 Apr 2002, at 16:58, Mary Utt wrote:

> I am coding a form that asks the user to enter a time of day.
> We are using two select boxes, one for hours (0-24) and one for
> minutes (:00, :15, :30, :45). They are positioned side by side.
>
> These form elements are logically one item and have one text label
> ("Starting time"). However, the <label></label> tags are intended one
> per form element. I really don't want to provide separate text labels
> for each element ("Hours" and "Minutes" -- this isn't even clear -- it
> sounds like a duration, not a time of day).
>
> Is there a way to label these form elements both logically and
> accessibly? Does putting them in a fieldset do the job?
>
> I am open to alternative suggestions for entering time-of-day data in
> a form.
>
> Thanks very much.
>
> Mary Utt
> SiteScape, Inc.
> Maynard, MA USA
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>



Leo Smith
Web Designer/Developer
USM Office of Publications and Marketing
University of Southern Maine
207-780-4774


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To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
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From: Leo Smith
Date: Fri, Apr 19 2002 5:29AM
Subject: RE: labeling form elements for time
← Previous message | Next message →

Jim,

I have ordered the new book and am looking forward to reading it. In
terms of the title attribute, I have found that Jaws 4.0 on Win2000
with IE5.5 reads the title attribute fine for text input form controls.
However, I found that it does not read the title attribute on <select>
form controls. Have anyone else found this to be the case?

Happy Friday,

Leo.

On 17 Apr 2002, at 21:01, Jim Thatcher wrote:

> Mary,
>
> Use the title attribute. It is supported by the major screen readers
> and HPR.
>
> This is one of the situations where title is almost required because
> the label text doesn't work, like two fields for zip+4 and three for a
> telephone number.
>
> This and many other tips in the new book "Constructing Accessible Web
> Sites," now available from Amazon:
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151000/jimthatcherco-20/! I
> recommend it. Authors include myself and WebAIM's own Paul Bohman.
>
> Jim
> Accessibility Consulting
> http://jimthatcher.com
> 512-306-0931
>
>
>

Leo Smith
Web Designer/Developer
USM Office of Publications and Marketing
University of Southern Maine
207-780-4774


----
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/


From: Jim Thatcher
Date: Fri, Apr 19 2002 10:02AM
Subject: RE: labeling form elements for time
← Previous message | Next message →

I just double checked and you are right. I found that neither HPR nor JFW
read the title on a select menu while Window-Eyes does.

Jim
Accessibility Consulting
http://jimthatcher.com
512-306-0931
Constructing Accessible Web Sites, is now available at Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151000/jimthatcherco-20/!
I recommend it. It's a good book!


-----Original Message-----
From: Leo Smith [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 7:26 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: RE: labeling form elements for time


Jim,

I have ordered the new book and am looking forward to reading it. In
terms of the title attribute, I have found that Jaws 4.0 on Win2000
with IE5.5 reads the title attribute fine for text input form controls.
However, I found that it does not read the title attribute on <select>
form controls. Have anyone else found this to be the case?

Happy Friday,

Leo.

On 17 Apr 2002, at 21:01, Jim Thatcher wrote:

> Mary,
>
> Use the title attribute. It is supported by the major screen readers
> and HPR.
>
> This is one of the situations where title is almost required because
> the label text doesn't work, like two fields for zip+4 and three for a
> telephone number.
>
> This and many other tips in the new book "Constructing Accessible Web
> Sites," now available from Amazon:
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151000/jimthatcherco-20/! I
> recommend it. Authors include myself and WebAIM's own Paul Bohman.
>
> Jim
> Accessibility Consulting
> http://jimthatcher.com
> 512-306-0931
>
>
>

Leo Smith
Web Designer/Developer
USM Office of Publications and Marketing
University of Southern Maine
207-780-4774


----
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/


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visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/


From: Mary Utt
Date: Mon, Apr 22 2002 7:03AM
Subject: RE: labeling form elements for time
← Previous message | No next message

So...the title attribute is *not* the way to go here? Alternative
suggestions? Thanks.

Mary Utt
SiteScape, Inc.
Maynard, MA USA

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Thatcher [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 12:58 PM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: RE: labeling form elements for time
>
>
> I just double checked and you are right. I found that neither HPR nor JFW
> read the title on a select menu while Window-Eyes does.
>
> Jim
> Accessibility Consulting
> http://jimthatcher.com
> 512-306-0931
> Constructing Accessible Web Sites, is now available at Amazon:
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151000/jimthatcherco-20/!
> I recommend it. It's a good book!
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Leo Smith [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 7:26 AM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: RE: labeling form elements for time
>
>
> Jim,
>
> I have ordered the new book and am looking forward to reading it. In
> terms of the title attribute, I have found that Jaws 4.0 on Win2000
> with IE5.5 reads the title attribute fine for text input form controls.
> However, I found that it does not read the title attribute on <select>
> form controls. Have anyone else found this to be the case?
>
> Happy Friday,
>
> Leo.
>
> On 17 Apr 2002, at 21:01, Jim Thatcher wrote:
>
> > Mary,
> >
> > Use the title attribute. It is supported by the major screen readers
> > and HPR.
> >
> > This is one of the situations where title is almost required because
> > the label text doesn't work, like two fields for zip+4 and three for a
> > telephone number.
> >
> > This and many other tips in the new book "Constructing Accessible Web
> > Sites," now available from Amazon:
> > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151000/jimthatcherco-20/! I
> > recommend it. Authors include myself and WebAIM's own Paul Bohman.
> >
> > Jim
> > Accessibility Consulting
> > http://jimthatcher.com
> > 512-306-0931
> >
> >
> >
>
> Leo Smith
> Web Designer/Developer
> USM Office of Publications and Marketing
> University of Southern Maine
> 207-780-4774
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>


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