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Thread: Regarding accessible PDF authoring

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From: Bryan Garaventa
Date: Thu, Sep 27 2012 12:45PM
Subject: Regarding accessible PDF authoring
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It's been a long time since I last looked into this, but does anyone know if the latest version of Acrobat Pro and JAWS13+ support accessible PDF authoring?

I'm not referring to accessible PDF documents that include tagging for accessibility, but rather, the ability for non-sighted authors to use the Acrobat editor to make PDFs accessible when they may not be.

For example, I know you can take an MS Word doc and convert this into a tagged PDF, but if the tagging isn't accurate, and it's necessary to modify the tagging to change or add headings, or to add form fields into a PDF where none were tagged before, can this be done using JAWS?

Thanks,
Bryan

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Thu, Sep 27 2012 6:10PM
Subject: Re: Regarding accessible PDF authoring
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Bryan
If you are refering to actobat Pro, then there are certain steps that
need to be taken using sight (i.e. not entirely accessible to a screen
reader user).
At least this was the case 6 months ago when I was looking into this process.
Thanks
-B

On 9/27/12, Bryan Garaventa < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> It's been a long time since I last looked into this, but does anyone know if
> the latest version of Acrobat Pro and JAWS13+ support accessible PDF
> authoring?
>
> I'm not referring to accessible PDF documents that include tagging for
> accessibility, but rather, the ability for non-sighted authors to use the
> Acrobat editor to make PDFs accessible when they may not be.
>
> For example, I know you can take an MS Word doc and convert this into a
> tagged PDF, but if the tagging isn't accurate, and it's necessary to modify
> the tagging to change or add headings, or to add form fields into a PDF
> where none were tagged before, can this be done using JAWS?
>
> Thanks,
> Bryan
> > > >

From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Thu, Sep 27 2012 9:20PM
Subject: Re: Regarding accessible PDF authoring
← Previous message | Next message →

Bryan,
Hope I'm interpreting your question correctly. You want to know if a user
can make an inaccessible PDF accessible from within Acrobat Pro (current
version is X/10).
The answer is "it depends." [Long explanation follows.]

Yes, there is a utility in Acrobat Pro that can add accessibility tags to a
PDF. In my classes I call it the "pseudo magic wand" and it's located in the
Accessibility Tool Panel. By default this particular panel is hidden so it
first must be "un-hidden" to be able to see the "Add Tags to Document" tool.


At first glance it looks like this tool magically solves the problem by
adding tags to the document, but once you review those tags you realize that
they're often in accurate. That's why my first answer is "it depends."
Depends upon how the original source document was constructed in MS Word,
Excel, PowerPoint, Adobe InDesign, or any other program.

Here are some key things I've found when remediating PDFs for accessibility:
1) It will make tags, but Acrobat won't be able figure out some of the items
in the document. It might get most of the headings correct, or not. Depends
upon how the source document was made, such as in MS Word, as to whether
Acrobat will be able to identify headings.
2) Same with lists.
3) Figures will be identified, but you'll have null tags " " that won't have
Alt-text on them. I don't think any software program can figure out what
whether the graphic is a logo or a photo or a detailed bar chart with
statistical data.
4) Forget about forms. If the PDF already has form fields in the file, it
will identify them but you won't have labels and who knows what the tab
order will be. If it's a "printed form" that is like a paper version without
the electronic fields, it will be like any other text-based PDF.
5) Designers and document creators often uses graphical text rather than
regular text. This text is usually unreadable unless it has Alt-text or
Actual text on it.
6) Reading order is often all over the place, not in the correct order.
Again this is based on how the document was originally constructed in Word
or other source programs.
7) Sidebar boxed text may or may not be found and if it is, it probably
won't be in the correct area of the reading order.
8) Tables are usually identified, but you won't have any <TH> tags
identifying the column headers.

You asked, "can this be done using JAWS?"
No, not in my opinion, unless it's an extremely simple document correctly
constructed in Word.
Most of the problems listed above are hidden from blind users so they won't
know that these sections of the PDF are either untagged (and therefore
inaccessible) or incorrectly tagged.

- Bevi Chagnon

- PubCom.com - Trainers, Consultants, Designers, and Developers.
- Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
Accessibility.
- It's our 31st year!

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Bryan Garaventa

It's been a long time since I last looked into this, but does anyone know if
the latest version of Acrobat Pro and JAWS13+ support accessible PDF
authoring?
I'm not referring to accessible PDF documents that include tagging for
accessibility, but rather, the ability for non-sighted authors to use the
Acrobat editor to make PDFs accessible when they may not be.
For example, I know you can take an MS Word doc and convert this into a
tagged PDF, but if the tagging isn't accurate, and it's necessary to modify
the tagging to change or add headings, or to add form fields into a PDF
where none were tagged before, can this be done using JAWS?

From: Kornbrot, Diana
Date: Fri, Sep 28 2012 6:08AM
Subject: Re: Regarding accessible PDF authoring
← Previous message | Next message →

How about Nuance

PDF Converter Professional 8 £99?
Claimed to be better than ADOBE acrobat

Would be interested in hearing form anyone who has experienced both
Best
Diann




On 28/09/2012 01:10, "Birkir R. Gunnarsson" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

Bryan
If you are refering to actobat Pro, then there are certain steps that
need to be taken using sight (i.e. not entirely accessible to a screen
reader user).
At least this was the case 6 months ago when I was looking into this process.
Thanks
-B

On 9/27/12, Bryan Garaventa < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> It's been a long time since I last looked into this, but does anyone know if
> the latest version of Acrobat Pro and JAWS13+ support accessible PDF
> authoring?
>
> I'm not referring to accessible PDF documents that include tagging for
> accessibility, but rather, the ability for non-sighted authors to use the
> Acrobat editor to make PDFs accessible when they may not be.
>
> For example, I know you can take an MS Word doc and convert this into a
> tagged PDF, but if the tagging isn't accurate, and it's necessary to modify
> the tagging to change or add headings, or to add form fields into a PDF
> where none were tagged before, can this be done using JAWS?
>
> Thanks,
> Bryan
> > > >
Emeritus Professor Diana Kornbrot
email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
web: http://dianakornbrot.wordpress.com/
Work
Department of Psychology
School of Life and Medical Sciences
University of Hertfordshire
College Lane, Hatfield, Hertfordshire AL10 9AB, UK
voice: +44 (0) 170 728 4626
fax: +44 (0) 170 728 5073
Home
19 Elmhurst Avenue
London N2 0LT, UK
voice: +44 (0) 208 444 2081
mobile: +44 (0) 740 318 1612
fax: +44 (0) 870 706 1445

From: Pratik Patel
Date: Fri, Sep 28 2012 9:06AM
Subject: Re: Regarding accessible PDF authoring
← Previous message | Next message →

Nuance's products are as incapable of allowing blind users to create
or edit PDF files independently. Many of the features to make files
accessible are themselves not accessible,


Regards,

Pratik Patel
CEO, EZFire
T: 718-928-5529
M: 718-249-7019
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 28, 2012, at 8:08 AM, "Kornbrot, Diana" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> How about Nuance
>
> PDF Converter Professional 8 £99?
> Claimed to be better than ADOBE acrobat
>
> Would be interested in hearing form anyone who has experienced both
> Best
> Diann
>
>
>
>
> On 28/09/2012 01:10, "Birkir R. Gunnarsson" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Bryan
> If you are refering to actobat Pro, then there are certain steps that
> need to be taken using sight (i.e. not entirely accessible to a screen
> reader user).
> At least this was the case 6 months ago when I was looking into this process.
> Thanks
> -B
>
> On 9/27/12, Bryan Garaventa < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> It's been a long time since I last looked into this, but does anyone know if
>> the latest version of Acrobat Pro and JAWS13+ support accessible PDF
>> authoring?
>>
>> I'm not referring to accessible PDF documents that include tagging for
>> accessibility, but rather, the ability for non-sighted authors to use the
>> Acrobat editor to make PDFs accessible when they may not be.
>>
>> For example, I know you can take an MS Word doc and convert this into a
>> tagged PDF, but if the tagging isn't accurate, and it's necessary to modify
>> the tagging to change or add headings, or to add form fields into a PDF
>> where none were tagged before, can this be done using JAWS?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Bryan
>> >> >> > > > >
>
>
> > Emeritus Professor Diana Kornbrot
> email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> web: http://dianakornbrot.wordpress.com/
> Work
> Department of Psychology
> School of Life and Medical Sciences
> University of Hertfordshire
> College Lane, Hatfield, Hertfordshire AL10 9AB, UK
> voice: +44 (0) 170 728 4626
> fax: +44 (0) 170 728 5073
> Home
> 19 Elmhurst Avenue
> London N2 0LT, UK
> voice: +44 (0) 208 444 2081
> mobile: +44 (0) 740 318 1612
> fax: +44 (0) 870 706 1445
> >
>
>
>
> > >

From: Bryan Garaventa
Date: Fri, Sep 28 2012 10:31AM
Subject: Re: Regarding accessible PDF authoring
← Previous message | Next message →

This is unfortunately what I've concluded as well.

I'm trying to take a preexisting PDF that was made several years ago without
tagging, and add form fields where appropriate, which looks to be impossible
without sighted assistance using Acrobat Pro. It's frustrating.

It would be great if the editor within Acrobat worked as well as MS Word, in
that you could select or put the cursor in a particular spot, press the
Applications key or equivalent to open a drop down menu, and insert the
correct tag for the selected text or insertion point accordingly.

The necessity for using an inaccessible editor to make something accessible,
is an irony.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Pratik Patel" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 8:06 AM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Regarding accessible PDF authoring


Nuance's products are as incapable of allowing blind users to create
or edit PDF files independently. Many of the features to make files
accessible are themselves not accessible,


Regards,

Pratik Patel
CEO, EZFire
T: 718-928-5529
M: 718-249-7019
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 28, 2012, at 8:08 AM, "Kornbrot, Diana" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> How about Nuance
>
> PDF Converter Professional 8 £99?
> Claimed to be better than ADOBE acrobat
>
> Would be interested in hearing form anyone who has experienced both
> Best
> Diann
>
>
>
>
> On 28/09/2012 01:10, "Birkir R. Gunnarsson" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
> Bryan
> If you are refering to actobat Pro, then there are certain steps that
> need to be taken using sight (i.e. not entirely accessible to a screen
> reader user).
> At least this was the case 6 months ago when I was looking into this
> process.
> Thanks
> -B
>
> On 9/27/12, Bryan Garaventa < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> It's been a long time since I last looked into this, but does anyone know
>> if
>> the latest version of Acrobat Pro and JAWS13+ support accessible PDF
>> authoring?
>>
>> I'm not referring to accessible PDF documents that include tagging for
>> accessibility, but rather, the ability for non-sighted authors to use the
>> Acrobat editor to make PDFs accessible when they may not be.
>>
>> For example, I know you can take an MS Word doc and convert this into a
>> tagged PDF, but if the tagging isn't accurate, and it's necessary to
>> modify
>> the tagging to change or add headings, or to add form fields into a PDF
>> where none were tagged before, can this be done using JAWS?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Bryan
>> >> >> > > > >
>
>
> > Emeritus Professor Diana Kornbrot
> email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> web: http://dianakornbrot.wordpress.com/
> Work
> Department of Psychology
> School of Life and Medical Sciences
> University of Hertfordshire
> College Lane, Hatfield, Hertfordshire AL10 9AB, UK
> voice: +44 (0) 170 728 4626
> fax: +44 (0) 170 728 5073
> Home
> 19 Elmhurst Avenue
> London N2 0LT, UK
> voice: +44 (0) 208 444 2081
> mobile: +44 (0) 740 318 1612
> fax: +44 (0) 870 706 1445
> >
>
>
>
> > >

From: Ryan E. Benson
Date: Fri, Sep 28 2012 5:32PM
Subject: Re: Regarding accessible PDF authoring
← Previous message | No next message

Depending on how the PDF is made, you might need to run the built in
OCR tool. I just upgraded to Acrobat X the other day, so I cannot
comment about how good it is. The one in 9.5 is sort of hit and miss,
it depends on the quality of the images and the font used. Then you
could use the add tags tool as mentioned. I am not sure what Adobe's
view of the add tags. At work I advocate that people who are making
the PDF not to use it based on in v9.0 and 9.5, I would need to delete
or tweak a large number of tags.

--
Ryan E. Benson


On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 12:31 PM, Bryan Garaventa
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> This is unfortunately what I've concluded as well.
>
> I'm trying to take a preexisting PDF that was made several years ago without
> tagging, and add form fields where appropriate, which looks to be impossible
> without sighted assistance using Acrobat Pro. It's frustrating.
>
> It would be great if the editor within Acrobat worked as well as MS Word, in
> that you could select or put the cursor in a particular spot, press the
> Applications key or equivalent to open a drop down menu, and insert the
> correct tag for the selected text or insertion point accordingly.
>
> The necessity for using an inaccessible editor to make something accessible,
> is an irony.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Pratik Patel" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 8:06 AM
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Regarding accessible PDF authoring
>
>
> Nuance's products are as incapable of allowing blind users to create
> or edit PDF files independently. Many of the features to make files
> accessible are themselves not accessible,
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Pratik Patel
> CEO, EZFire
> T: 718-928-5529
> M: 718-249-7019
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 28, 2012, at 8:08 AM, "Kornbrot, Diana" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
>> How about Nuance
>>
>> PDF Converter Professional 8 £99?
>> Claimed to be better than ADOBE acrobat
>>
>> Would be interested in hearing form anyone who has experienced both
>> Best
>> Diann
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 28/09/2012 01:10, "Birkir R. Gunnarsson" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> wrote:
>>
>> Bryan
>> If you are refering to actobat Pro, then there are certain steps that
>> need to be taken using sight (i.e. not entirely accessible to a screen
>> reader user).
>> At least this was the case 6 months ago when I was looking into this
>> process.
>> Thanks
>> -B
>>
>> On 9/27/12, Bryan Garaventa < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>> It's been a long time since I last looked into this, but does anyone know
>>> if
>>> the latest version of Acrobat Pro and JAWS13+ support accessible PDF
>>> authoring?
>>>
>>> I'm not referring to accessible PDF documents that include tagging for
>>> accessibility, but rather, the ability for non-sighted authors to use the
>>> Acrobat editor to make PDFs accessible when they may not be.
>>>
>>> For example, I know you can take an MS Word doc and convert this into a
>>> tagged PDF, but if the tagging isn't accurate, and it's necessary to
>>> modify
>>> the tagging to change or add headings, or to add form fields into a PDF
>>> where none were tagged before, can this be done using JAWS?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Bryan
>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >>
>>
>>
>> >> Emeritus Professor Diana Kornbrot
>> email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> web: http://dianakornbrot.wordpress.com/
>> Work
>> Department of Psychology
>> School of Life and Medical Sciences
>> University of Hertfordshire
>> College Lane, Hatfield, Hertfordshire AL10 9AB, UK
>> voice: +44 (0) 170 728 4626
>> fax: +44 (0) 170 728 5073
>> Home
>> 19 Elmhurst Avenue
>> London N2 0LT, UK
>> voice: +44 (0) 208 444 2081
>> mobile: +44 (0) 740 318 1612
>> fax: +44 (0) 870 706 1445
>> >>
>>
>>
>>
>> >> >> > > > >
> > >