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Thread: PDFs: Logical Reading Order and Tags
Number of posts in this thread: 15 (In chronological order)
From: Alan Zaitchik
Date: Wed, Jun 01 2016 6:37AM
Subject: PDFs: Logical Reading Order and Tags
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When we get a PDF generated out of InDesign the tags are usually non-HTML5-standard tags in a jumbled order. Yet often the logical reading order is fine, or can easily be fixed using the Acrobat tool for doing so. Testing in a screen reader like JAWS or NVDA seems to yield a pass as well- the content is read in the correct order.
How important is it that the tags themselves be (1) rearranged to match the logical reading order, and (2) thoroughly reworked to use only HTML5 standard tags?
I imagine this turns on the question whether there are AT tools other than JAWS and NVDA that depend on these tags being standard and reordered.
Thanks,
A
From: Moore,Michael (Accessibility) (HHSC)
Date: Wed, Jun 01 2016 7:11AM
Subject: Re: PDFs: Logical Reading Order and Tags
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In my experience these are the most important items.
1. The tag order should match the reading order. Unless something has changed recently the major screen readers follow the tag order for reading content.
2. Table structure - the tag structure for a table must be correct, including table headers and header and id's if necessary. Without this much of the meaning for the tables is lost.
3. List structure - the same thing is true here too. If single lists are broken into multiple lists this makes it more difficult to understand the content when it read using a screen reader.
4. Heading structure. Are headings at logical levels within the context of the document and are they nested appropriately.
The actual tag used may or may not be important as long as it maps to the correct structure. This can be controlled in either InDesign or Acrobat Pro - this is best set up in InDesign that way the final tags don't look so strange.
Some good tests with the screen reader.
Run a headings list. The headings list should provide a good outline of the document.
Scan the lists. Are the lists complete and nested correctly.
Scan the tables - use table reading commands to test that headers are being reported correctly.
Read by paragraph. Does what the screen reader thinks is a complete paragraph match what visually exists in the document or are there extra breaks.
Mike Moore
Accessibility Coordinator
Texas Health and Human Services Commission
Civil Rights Office
(512) 438-3431 (Office)
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Alan Zaitchik
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2016 7:38 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] PDFs: Logical Reading Order and Tags
When we get a PDF generated out of InDesign the tags are usually non-HTML5-standard tags in a jumbled order. Yet often the logical reading order is fine, or can easily be fixed using the Acrobat tool for doing so. Testing in a screen reader like JAWS or NVDA seems to yield a pass as well- the content is read in the correct order.
How important is it that the tags themselves be (1) rearranged to match the logical reading order, and (2) thoroughly reworked to use only HTML5 standard tags?
I imagine this turns on the question whether there are AT tools other than JAWS and NVDA that depend on these tags being standard and reordered.
Thanks,
A
From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Wed, Jun 01 2016 7:12AM
Subject: Re: PDFs: Logical Reading Order and Tags
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> When we get a PDF generated out of InDesign the tags are usually non-HTML5-standard tags in a jumbled order.
You should look at the Role Mappings in the tags pane of Adobe Acrobat. The tag names may be non-standard but they may map to standard tag names. Use of standard tag names or names that map back to standard tag names via the role mapping would generally be required for the relevant accessibility standards for anything other than just text.
> Yet often the logical reading order is fine, or can easily be fixed using the Acrobat tool for doing so. Testing in a screen reader like JAWS or NVDA seems to yield a pass as well- the content is read in the correct order.
In Acrobat there are two ways that content can be ordered -- the logical structure tree with tags and the content panel which shows the order the content is written in the document. Generally the accessibility tools should match these two orders but there are times when they can become different. Generally most assistive technology will use the logical tag order -- but in some rare cases the content order may be used by assistive technology. It is most important that the tags panels order be correct -- but it is also important to make sure the content panel matches (except when doing so might affect the visual content). The content panel's order could possibly affect other accessibility tools such as the reflow option. It's been a while since I separated out the order between the two and tested the different issues that come up.
Jonathan
Jonathan Avila
Chief Accessibility Officer
SSB BART Group
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
703.637.8957 (Office)
Visit us online: Website | Twitter | Facebook | Linkedin | Blog
Check out our Digital Accessibility Webinars!
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Alan Zaitchik
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2016 8:38 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] PDFs: Logical Reading Order and Tags
When we get a PDF generated out of InDesign the tags are usually non-HTML5-standard tags in a jumbled order. Yet often the logical reading order is fine, or can easily be fixed using the Acrobat tool for doing so. Testing in a screen reader like JAWS or NVDA seems to yield a pass as well- the content is read in the correct order.
How important is it that the tags themselves be (1) rearranged to match the logical reading order, and (2) thoroughly reworked to use only HTML5 standard tags?
I imagine this turns on the question whether there are AT tools other than JAWS and NVDA that depend on these tags being standard and reordered.
Thanks,
A
From: Duff Johnson
Date: Wed, Jun 01 2016 7:20AM
Subject: Re: PDFs: Logical Reading Order and Tags
← Previous message | Next message →
> When we get a PDF generated out of InDesign the tags are usually non-HTML5-standard tags in a jumbled order.
Two thingsâ¦
1) PDF does not use the same set of structure elements ("tags" in HTML-speak) as HTML. PDF is not HTML; HTML is not PDF.
2) If the logical ordering of tags in the PDF file is incorrect then the InDesign file was not authored properly with respect to accessibility. There are, sadly, still numerous âgotchas' in the InDesign world that can make this a pain.
A tool InDesign folks should consider is Axaio's MadeToTag, which offers a lot of help in accessible PDF authoring from InDesign.
> Yet often the logical reading order is fine, or can easily be fixed using the Acrobat tool for doing so. Testing in a screen reader like JAWS or NVDA seems to yield a pass as well- the content is read in the correct order.
In PDF, logical structure elements (commonly known as tags) determine the logical reading order of the content. Thus, you can look at the sequence of tags (or export to HTML, or use a free tool such as pdfGoHTML) to review the logical ordering of the content.
Of course, you can also use a screen-reader or other AT that understands accessible PDF. You CANNOT, however, use software such as Adobe Acrobat's Read Out Loud or Reflow features to test this, since these features do ***not*** at this present time understand accessible PDF. :-(
> How important is it that the tags themselves be (1) rearranged to match the logical reading order
Critical. Contra the erroneous advice offered in WAI's PDF Technique 3, there is no accessibility without structure elements (tags) in correct logical reading order.
(Sidenote: the errors in the PDF3 technique are one of the most serious causes of confusion worldwide on this subject.)
> , and (2) thoroughly reworked to use only HTML5 standard tags?
As above⦠PDF has its own set of structure elements; they are not the same as HTML's set for a variety of reasons. NEVER attempt to use HTML5 tags in a PDF document unless you are prepared to role-map your "HTML5" tags to PDF's standard structure elements.
> I imagine this turns on the question whether there are AT tools other than JAWS and NVDA that depend on these tags being standard and reordered.
What's critical is that PDF tags are employed properly and predictably. This means using PDF tags for PDF files.
I hope this helps.
All the best,
Duff Johnson
PDF Association Executive Director
ISO 32000 (PDF) Intl. Project Co-Leader, US Chair
ISO 14289 (PDF/UA) Intl. Project Co-Leader, US Chair
Independent Consultant
p +1.617.283.4226
e = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
w http://duff-johnson.com
l http://www.linkedin.com/in/duffjohnson/
At the PDF Association...
e = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
w http://www.pdfa.org
From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Wed, Jun 01 2016 7:09AM
Subject: Re: PDFs: Logical Reading Order and Tags
← Previous message | Next message →
Wow. Did you bring up a sore point for me!
Just posted to an Adobe list about this...for the umpteenth time, too.
#1. Please please please file a bug report/feature request in the Adobe forums http://www.adobe.com/products/wishform.html. They've known about this problem for 6 years, yet it's not getting fixed. Push them.
#2. In Acrobat, you need to check your Role Map (options menu from the Tag panel) and make sure that every instance of the crazy-named tags from InDesign is mapped to a standard PDF accessibility tag. Example: if the crazy-named tag is <Big_Blue_Title> but it should be <H1>, the Role Map utility should show it as Big_Blue_Tible / H1.
Check every single tag and make sure it's mapped to the correct standard tag. Role Map is a global tool, so all instances of <Big_Blue_Title> will map to <H1> throughout the document.
#3. Here's a trick I teach in my InDesign + Accessibility classes. Name your styles with the standard tag name so that it either converts to the correct tag in the PDF, or is easier to check in the Role Map. Examples:
Big Blue Title, rename it H1
Section Title, rename it H1 - Section
Big subhead, rename it H2
Sidebar head, rename it H2 - Sidebar
This trick will help minimize the pain of this very costly, painful difficiency in InDesign.
Next item: reading order.
Yes, it's critical to have the tags sequenced top-down in a logital reading order. But that's not something to address in an online post. I teach a 2-day class in that!
â
Bevi Chagnon | www.PubCom.com
Technologists, Consultants, Trainers, Designers, and Developers
for publishing & communication
| Acrobat PDF | Print | EPUBS | Sec. 508 Accessibility |
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Alan Zaitchik
Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2016 8:38 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] PDFs: Logical Reading Order and Tags
When we get a PDF generated out of InDesign the tags are usually non-HTML5-standard tags in a jumbled order. Yet often the logical reading order is fine, or can easily be fixed using the Acrobat tool for doing so. Testing in a screen reader like JAWS or NVDA seems to yield a pass as well- the content is read in the correct order.
How important is it that the tags themselves be (1) rearranged to match the logical reading order, and (2) thoroughly reworked to use only HTML5 standard tags?
I imagine this turns on the question whether there are AT tools other than JAWS and NVDA that depend on these tags being standard and reordered.
Thanks,
A
From: Chaals McCathie Nevile
Date: Wed, Jun 01 2016 11:02AM
Subject: Re: WAI documents PDFs: Logical Reading Order and Tags
← Previous message | Next message →
On Wed, 01 Jun 2016 15:20:09 +0200, Duff Johnson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:
>> How important is it that the tags themselves be (1) rearranged to match
>> the logical reading order
>
> Critical. Contra the erroneous advice offered in WAI's PDF Technique 3,
> there is no accessibility without structure elements (tags) in correct
> logical reading order.
>
> (Sidenote: the errors in the PDF3 technique are one of the most serious
> causes of confusion worldwide on this subject.)
Have you filed a bug on that? If so, can you point to it so people can
follow it up.
If not, I'd be really happy to help do soâ¦
cheers
--
Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = - - - Find more at http://yandex.com
From: Duff Johnson
Date: Wed, Jun 01 2016 12:04PM
Subject: Re: WAI documentsPDFs: Logical Reading Order and Tags
← Previous message | Next message →
>> (Sidenote: the errors in the PDF3 technique are one of the most serious causes of confusion worldwide on this subject.)
>
> Have you filed a bug on that?
Sometime in 2012.
> If so, can you point to it so people can follow it up.
I just filed another:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-comments-wcag20/2016Jun/0000.html
Duff.
From: Lucy Greco
Date: Wed, Jun 01 2016 4:11PM
Subject: Re: PDFs: Logical Reading Order and Tags
← Previous message | Next message →
I have seen 5 vary large pdfs in the last week that have been created in
end design and they have all had the same weard reading order with one
line on a page and the pageing in a strange order. so i would get page 6
then some content on a line then page 2 and some content on a line and
page 3 and then some content on a line and page one with a longer bit of
content. also no hedders and no table markup at all.
these were sent to ame as ones that had access work done on them is this
part of the same problem
Lucia Greco
Web Accessibility Evangelist
IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
Follow me on twitter @accessaces
On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 6:09 AM, Chagnon | PubCom < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Wow. Did you bring up a sore point for me!
> Just posted to an Adobe list about this...for the umpteenth time, too.
>
> #1. Please please please file a bug report/feature request in the Adobe
> forums http://www.adobe.com/products/wishform.html. They've known about
> this problem for 6 years, yet it's not getting fixed. Push them.
>
> #2. In Acrobat, you need to check your Role Map (options menu from the Tag
> panel) and make sure that every instance of the crazy-named tags from
> InDesign is mapped to a standard PDF accessibility tag. Example: if the
> crazy-named tag is <Big_Blue_Title> but it should be <H1>, the Role Map
> utility should show it as Big_Blue_Tible / H1.
>
> Check every single tag and make sure it's mapped to the correct standard
> tag. Role Map is a global tool, so all instances of <Big_Blue_Title> will
> map to <H1> throughout the document.
>
> #3. Here's a trick I teach in my InDesign + Accessibility classes. Name
> your styles with the standard tag name so that it either converts to the
> correct tag in the PDF, or is easier to check in the Role Map. Examples:
>
> Big Blue Title, rename it H1
> Section Title, rename it H1 - Section
> Big subhead, rename it H2
> Sidebar head, rename it H2 - Sidebar
>
> This trick will help minimize the pain of this very costly, painful
> difficiency in InDesign.
>
> Next item: reading order.
> Yes, it's critical to have the tags sequenced top-down in a logital
> reading order. But that's not something to address in an online post. I
> teach a 2-day class in that!
>
> â
> Bevi Chagnon | www.PubCom.com
> Technologists, Consultants, Trainers, Designers, and Developers
> for publishing & communication
> | Acrobat PDF | Print | EPUBS | Sec. 508 Accessibility |
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Alan Zaitchik
> Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2016 8:38 AM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: [WebAIM] PDFs: Logical Reading Order and Tags
>
> When we get a PDF generated out of InDesign the tags are usually
> non-HTML5-standard tags in a jumbled order. Yet often the logical reading
> order is fine, or can easily be fixed using the Acrobat tool for doing so.
> Testing in a screen reader like JAWS or NVDA seems to yield a pass as well-
> the content is read in the correct order.
> How important is it that the tags themselves be (1) rearranged to match
> the logical reading order, and (2) thoroughly reworked to use only HTML5
> standard tags?
> I imagine this turns on the question whether there are AT tools other than
> JAWS and NVDA that depend on these tags being standard and reordered.
> Thanks,
> A
>
> > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >
> > > > >
From: Alan Zaitchik
Date: Thu, Jun 02 2016 12:12PM
Subject: Re: PDFs: Logical Reading Order and Tags
← Previous message | Next message →
ŠAnd just to add to this scenario: when I have to use Acrobat¹s Edit PDF
to make a change (e.g. a change to some URL in a link) it seems to totally
screw up the tags all around the change site to some significant distance!
I¹m sure I needn't tell you how frustrating it is to do all the tags work
and then get asked to make some "small edit²! I don¹t know a whole lot
about editing PDFs in Acrobat, but now I am wondering if the fault is not
in my stars but in the product, to twist a famous phrase.
Alan Zaitchik | Senior Technologist / Senior Associate
200 Reservoir Street, Suite 202
Needham, Massachusetts 02494
www.center4si.com <http://www.center4si.com/>;
On 6/1/16, 6:11 PM, "Lucy Greco" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>I have seen 5 vary large pdfs in the last week that have been created in
>end design and they have all had the same weard reading order with one
>line on a page and the pageing in a strange order. so i would get page 6
>then some content on a line then page 2 and some content on a line and
>page 3 and then some content on a line and page one with a longer bit of
>content. also no hedders and no table markup at all.
> these were sent to ame as ones that had access work done on them is this
>part of the same problem
>
>Lucia Greco
>Web Accessibility Evangelist
>IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
>University of California, Berkeley
>(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
>http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
>Follow me on twitter @accessaces
>
>
>On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 6:09 AM, Chagnon | PubCom < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>wrote:
>
>> Wow. Did you bring up a sore point for me!
>> Just posted to an Adobe list about this...for the umpteenth time, too.
>>
>> #1. Please please please file a bug report/feature request in the Adobe
>> forums http://www.adobe.com/products/wishform.html. They've known about
>> this problem for 6 years, yet it's not getting fixed. Push them.
>>
>> #2. In Acrobat, you need to check your Role Map (options menu from the
>>Tag
>> panel) and make sure that every instance of the crazy-named tags from
>> InDesign is mapped to a standard PDF accessibility tag. Example: if the
>> crazy-named tag is <Big_Blue_Title> but it should be <H1>, the Role Map
>> utility should show it as Big_Blue_Tible / H1.
>>
>> Check every single tag and make sure it's mapped to the correct standard
>> tag. Role Map is a global tool, so all instances of <Big_Blue_Title>
>>will
>> map to <H1> throughout the document.
>>
>> #3. Here's a trick I teach in my InDesign + Accessibility classes. Name
>> your styles with the standard tag name so that it either converts to the
>> correct tag in the PDF, or is easier to check in the Role Map. Examples:
>>
>> Big Blue Title, rename it H1
>> Section Title, rename it H1 - Section
>> Big subhead, rename it H2
>> Sidebar head, rename it H2 - Sidebar
>>
>> This trick will help minimize the pain of this very costly, painful
>> difficiency in InDesign.
>>
>> Next item: reading order.
>> Yes, it's critical to have the tags sequenced top-down in a logital
>> reading order. But that's not something to address in an online post. I
>> teach a 2-day class in that!
>>
>> â¹
>> Bevi Chagnon | www.PubCom.com
>> Technologists, Consultants, Trainers, Designers, and Developers
>> for publishing & communication
>> | Acrobat PDF | Print | EPUBS | Sec. 508 Accessibility |
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>> Behalf Of Alan Zaitchik
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2016 8:38 AM
>> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> Subject: [WebAIM] PDFs: Logical Reading Order and Tags
>>
>> When we get a PDF generated out of InDesign the tags are usually
>> non-HTML5-standard tags in a jumbled order. Yet often the logical
>>reading
>> order is fine, or can easily be fixed using the Acrobat tool for doing
>>so.
>> Testing in a screen reader like JAWS or NVDA seems to yield a pass as
>>well-
>> the content is read in the correct order.
>> How important is it that the tags themselves be (1) rearranged to match
>> the logical reading order, and (2) thoroughly reworked to use only HTML5
>> standard tags?
>> I imagine this turns on the question whether there are AT tools other
>>than
>> JAWS and NVDA that depend on these tags being standard and reordered.
>> Thanks,
>> A
>>
>> >> >> at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >>
>> >> >> >> >>
>
From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Thu, Jun 02 2016 12:23PM
Subject: Re: PDFs: Logical Reading Order and Tags
← Previous message | Next message →
Yes, this is a known bug in Acrobat.
After a PDF has been tagged for accessibility, any TEXT edits to the file
can botch up the accessibility tags. Sometimes the tags are eliminated or
the page structure/reading order is changed. And it can happen anywhere in
the file, not necessarily at the point where the edit was made.
Please file a "feature request" at the Adobe forums,
http://www.adobe.com/products/wishform.html
When you do, please be specific so that the engineers can replicate the bug.
Give step-by-step instructions:
1. I clicked on the button.
2. I selected some text.
3. Using the XYZ tool, it typed "abc."
Etc.
FYI, editorial changes should generally be made in the source file, not the
PDF. This ensures that future versions from the source file are correct,
too.
However, it emphasizes how our main software providers -- that is, Microsoft
and Adobe -- must give us better tools. There are way too many bugs in all
programs: MS Word, PowerPoint, Acrobat, and InDesign.
--Bevi Chagnon
www.PubCom.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Zaitchik [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Thursday, June 2, 2016 2:12 PM
To: Lucy Greco < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >; = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; WebAIM Discussion
List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDFs: Logical Reading Order and Tags
ŠAnd just to add to this scenario: when I have to use Acrobat¹s Edit PDF to
make a change (e.g. a change to some URL in a link) it seems to totally
screw up the tags all around the change site to some significant distance!
I¹m sure I needn't tell you how frustrating it is to do all the tags work
and then get asked to make some "small edit²! I don¹t know a whole lot about
editing PDFs in Acrobat, but now I am wondering if the fault is not in my
stars but in the product, to twist a famous phrase.
Alan Zaitchik | Senior Technologist / Senior Associate
200 Reservoir Street, Suite 202
Needham, Massachusetts 02494
www.center4si.com <http://www.center4si.com/>;
From: Sophie Schuermans
Date: Fri, Jun 03 2016 1:21AM
Subject: Re: WAI documentsPDFs: Logical Reading Order and Tags
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi,
To obtain a logical reading order, your tags need to be in the right order.
To achieve that you can use the article pane in Indesign. This is described
in this white paper and works fine:
http://www.adobe.com/content/dam/Adobe/en/products/indesign/pdfs/indesign-cs55-accessibility-whitepaper.pdf
Look for 'Establish a reading order with the Articles panel'.
This document also explains how to map the paragraph styles to PDF tags
(look for 'Add Export Tagging').
Best regards,
Sophie
2016-06-02 20:00 GMT+02:00 < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: WAI documents Re: PDFs: Logical Reading Order and Tags
> (Duff Johnson)
> 2. Re: PDFs: Logical Reading Order and Tags (Lucy Greco)
>
>
> ---------- Message transféré ----------
> From: Duff Johnson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Cc:
> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 14:04:15 -0400
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] WAI documents Re: PDFs: Logical Reading Order and
> Tags
> >> (Sidenote: the errors in the PDF3 technique are one of the most serious
> causes of confusion worldwide on this subject.)
> >
> > Have you filed a bug on that?
>
> Sometime in 2012.
>
> > If so, can you point to it so people can follow it up.
>
> I just filed another:
>
>
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-comments-wcag20/2016Jun/0000.html
>
> Duff.
>
>
> ---------- Message transféré ----------
> From: Lucy Greco < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = , WebAIM Discussion List <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Cc:
> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 15:11:15 -0700
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDFs: Logical Reading Order and Tags
> I have seen 5 vary large pdfs in the last week that have been created in
> end design and they have all had the same weard reading order with one
> line on a page and the pageing in a strange order. so i would get page 6
> then some content on a line then page 2 and some content on a line and
> page 3 and then some content on a line and page one with a longer bit of
> content. also no hedders and no table markup at all.
> these were sent to ame as ones that had access work done on them is this
> part of the same problem
>
> Lucia Greco
> Web Accessibility Evangelist
> IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
> University of California, Berkeley
> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> Follow me on twitter @accessaces
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 6:09 AM, Chagnon | PubCom < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
> > Wow. Did you bring up a sore point for me!
> > Just posted to an Adobe list about this...for the umpteenth time, too.
> >
> > #1. Please please please file a bug report/feature request in the Adobe
> > forums http://www.adobe.com/products/wishform.html. They've known about
> > this problem for 6 years, yet it's not getting fixed. Push them.
> >
> > #2. In Acrobat, you need to check your Role Map (options menu from the
> Tag
> > panel) and make sure that every instance of the crazy-named tags from
> > InDesign is mapped to a standard PDF accessibility tag. Example: if the
> > crazy-named tag is <Big_Blue_Title> but it should be <H1>, the Role Map
> > utility should show it as Big_Blue_Tible / H1.
> >
> > Check every single tag and make sure it's mapped to the correct standard
> > tag. Role Map is a global tool, so all instances of <Big_Blue_Title> will
> > map to <H1> throughout the document.
> >
> > #3. Here's a trick I teach in my InDesign + Accessibility classes. Name
> > your styles with the standard tag name so that it either converts to the
> > correct tag in the PDF, or is easier to check in the Role Map. Examples:
> >
> > Big Blue Title, rename it H1
> > Section Title, rename it H1 - Section
> > Big subhead, rename it H2
> > Sidebar head, rename it H2 - Sidebar
> >
> > This trick will help minimize the pain of this very costly, painful
> > difficiency in InDesign.
> >
> > Next item: reading order.
> > Yes, it's critical to have the tags sequenced top-down in a logital
> > reading order. But that's not something to address in an online post. I
> > teach a 2-day class in that!
> >
> > â
> > Bevi Chagnon | www.PubCom.com
> > Technologists, Consultants, Trainers, Designers, and Developers
> > for publishing & communication
> > | Acrobat PDF | Print | EPUBS | Sec. 508 Accessibility |
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> > Behalf Of Alan Zaitchik
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2016 8:38 AM
> > To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > Subject: [WebAIM] PDFs: Logical Reading Order and Tags
> >
> > When we get a PDF generated out of InDesign the tags are usually
> > non-HTML5-standard tags in a jumbled order. Yet often the logical reading
> > order is fine, or can easily be fixed using the Acrobat tool for doing
> so.
> > Testing in a screen reader like JAWS or NVDA seems to yield a pass as
> well-
> > the content is read in the correct order.
> > How important is it that the tags themselves be (1) rearranged to match
> > the logical reading order, and (2) thoroughly reworked to use only HTML5
> > standard tags?
> > I imagine this turns on the question whether there are AT tools other
> than
> > JAWS and NVDA that depend on these tags being standard and reordered.
> > Thanks,
> > A
> >
> > > > > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
>
>
> > > > >
>
--
Sophie Schuermans
--
AnySurfer - Pour un internet plus accessible
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24 bte 21 avenue des arts, 1000 Bruxelles
Tel: +32 (0)2-210 61 49
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From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Fri, Jun 03 2016 7:51AM
Subject: Re: WAI documentsPDFs: Logical Reading Order and Tags
← Previous message | Next message →
You can use InDesign's articles panel to sequence text and graphic frames into an order of some sorts, but it only works on very short documents.
If you have a document longer than 1 page where one text thread continues onto successive pages, the Articles panel won't be much help because of how that panel sequences the items in it.
Example: My main story thread stretches across 10 pages and I put it in the Articles Panel. Then, if I add a sidebar on page 2 and add it to the Articles Panel, InDesign places the sidebar after the entire main story thread, that is, after page 10 is voiced out.
There are better ways to achieve the correct reading from InDesign. The Articles Panel can be helpful for short documents--very short documents. But for most normal projects done in InDesign, it's not useful at all. I teach my students and clients when it's useful, and then to not bother with it at all for other projects.
--Bevi Chagnon
PubCom.com
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Sophie Schuermans
Sent: Friday, June 3, 2016 3:22 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] WAI documents Re: PDFs: Logical Reading Order and Tags
Hi,
To obtain a logical reading order, your tags need to be in the right order.
To achieve that you can use the article pane in Indesign. This is described in this white paper and works fine:
http://www.adobe.com/content/dam/Adobe/en/products/indesign/pdfs/indesign-cs55-accessibility-whitepaper.pdf
Look for 'Establish a reading order with the Articles panel'.
This document also explains how to map the paragraph styles to PDF tags (look for 'Add Export Tagging').
Best regards,
Sophie
From: Olaf Drümmer
Date: Sat, Jun 04 2016 9:46AM
Subject: Re: WAI documentsPDFs: Logical Reading Order and Tags
← Previous message | Next message →
<advertisement>
You could anchor your sidebar at the right place in your multi-page text frame thread, and use the «axaio MadeToTag» plug-in for export to tagged PDF (and actually: PDF/UA). MadeToTag overcomes limitations that exist in Indesign's own export to tagged PDF when it comes to anchored frames. Fully functional 14 day demo available at www.axaio.com.
Disclaimer: I work for axaio, and my views might be biased ;-)
Olaf
</advertisement>
> On 03.06.2016, at 15:51, Chagnon | PubCom < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> You can use InDesign's articles panel to sequence text and graphic frames into an order of some sorts, but it only works on very short documents.
>
> If you have a document longer than 1 page where one text thread continues onto successive pages, the Articles panel won't be much help because of how that panel sequences the items in it.
>
> Example: My main story thread stretches across 10 pages and I put it in the Articles Panel. Then, if I add a sidebar on page 2 and add it to the Articles Panel, InDesign places the sidebar after the entire main story thread, that is, after page 10 is voiced out.
>
> There are better ways to achieve the correct reading from InDesign. The Articles Panel can be helpful for short documents--very short documents. But for most normal projects done in InDesign, it's not useful at all. I teach my students and clients when it's useful, and then to not bother with it at all for other projects.
>
> --Bevi Chagnon
> PubCom.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Sophie Schuermans
> Sent: Friday, June 3, 2016 3:22 AM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] WAI documents Re: PDFs: Logical Reading Order and Tags
>
> Hi,
>
> To obtain a logical reading order, your tags need to be in the right order.
> To achieve that you can use the article pane in Indesign. This is described in this white paper and works fine:
> http://www.adobe.com/content/dam/Adobe/en/products/indesign/pdfs/indesign-cs55-accessibility-whitepaper.pdf
> Look for 'Establish a reading order with the Articles panel'.
> This document also explains how to map the paragraph styles to PDF tags (look for 'Add Export Tagging').
>
> Best regards,
>
> Sophie
>
>
> > > >
From: Ryan E. Benson
Date: Mon, Jun 06 2016 9:09AM
Subject: Re: WAI documentsPDFs: Logical Reading Order and Tags
← Previous message | Next message →
Personally i have given up on the Articles Panel years ago. I found that if I had the help file open, it worked moderately well. Trying again a short time later, I usually ended up with failure. However using the Structure panel, which seems to be frowned upon now, I can get reliable results every time.
Ryan
Sent from my iPad
> On Jun 3, 2016, at 09:51, Chagnon | PubCom < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> You can use InDesign's articles panel to sequence text and graphic frames into an order of some sorts, but it only works on very short documents.
>
> If you have a document longer than 1 page where one text thread continues onto successive pages, the Articles panel won't be much help because of how that panel sequences the items in it.
>
> Example: My main story thread stretches across 10 pages and I put it in the Articles Panel. Then, if I add a sidebar on page 2 and add it to the Articles Panel, InDesign places the sidebar after the entire main story thread, that is, after page 10 is voiced out.
>
> There are better ways to achieve the correct reading from InDesign. The Articles Panel can be helpful for short documents--very short documents. But for most normal projects done in InDesign, it's not useful at all. I teach my students and clients when it's useful, and then to not bother with it at all for other projects.
>
> --Bevi Chagnon
> PubCom.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Sophie Schuermans
> Sent: Friday, June 3, 2016 3:22 AM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] WAI documents Re: PDFs: Logical Reading Order and Tags
>
> Hi,
>
> To obtain a logical reading order, your tags need to be in the right order.
> To achieve that you can use the article pane in Indesign. This is described in this white paper and works fine:
> http://www.adobe.com/content/dam/Adobe/en/products/indesign/pdfs/indesign-cs55-accessibility-whitepaper.pdf
> Look for 'Establish a reading order with the Articles panel'.
> This document also explains how to map the paragraph styles to PDF tags (look for 'Add Export Tagging').
>
> Best regards,
>
> Sophie
>
>
> > > >
From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Mon, Jun 06 2016 9:25AM
Subject: Re: WAI documentsPDFs: Logical Reading Order and Tags
← Previous message | No next message
> Personally i have given up on the Articles Panel years ago.
I've also had better results with the structure tree. In order for the articles Panel to work correctly all the content needs to be there and then it just doesn't seem to be as granular as I'd like. Perhaps for very simple documents it's ok -- but for anything large it really only helps you understand the reading order. Of course even with the structure tree, expect for some elements InDesign to do whatever it wants regardless of what you put in there.
Jonathan
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Ryan E. Benson
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2016 11:10 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] WAI documents Re: PDFs: Logical Reading Order and Tags
Personally i have given up on the Articles Panel years ago. I found that if I had the help file open, it worked moderately well. Trying again a short time later, I usually ended up with failure. However using the Structure panel, which seems to be frowned upon now, I can get reliable results every time.
Ryan
Sent from my iPad
> On Jun 3, 2016, at 09:51, Chagnon | PubCom < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> You can use InDesign's articles panel to sequence text and graphic frames into an order of some sorts, but it only works on very short documents.
>
> If you have a document longer than 1 page where one text thread continues onto successive pages, the Articles panel won't be much help because of how that panel sequences the items in it.
>
> Example: My main story thread stretches across 10 pages and I put it in the Articles Panel. Then, if I add a sidebar on page 2 and add it to the Articles Panel, InDesign places the sidebar after the entire main story thread, that is, after page 10 is voiced out.
>
> There are better ways to achieve the correct reading from InDesign. The Articles Panel can be helpful for short documents--very short documents. But for most normal projects done in InDesign, it's not useful at all. I teach my students and clients when it's useful, and then to not bother with it at all for other projects.
>
> --Bevi Chagnon
> PubCom.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Sophie Schuermans
> Sent: Friday, June 3, 2016 3:22 AM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] WAI documents Re: PDFs: Logical Reading Order
> and Tags
>
> Hi,
>
> To obtain a logical reading order, your tags need to be in the right order.
> To achieve that you can use the article pane in Indesign. This is described in this white paper and works fine:
> http://www.adobe.com/content/dam/Adobe/en/products/indesign/pdfs/indes
> ign-cs55-accessibility-whitepaper.pdf
> Look for 'Establish a reading order with the Articles panel'.
> This document also explains how to map the paragraph styles to PDF tags (look for 'Add Export Tagging').
>
> Best regards,
>
> Sophie
>
>
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>