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Number of posts in this thread: 7 (In chronological order)

From: Angela French
Date: Fri, Jul 14 2017 11:05AM
Subject: location of details link
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Hello WebAIMers,

We are redesigning a web application built about 8 years ago. This time around we want it to be more accessible.

I would be grateful for your opinion in testing out the location of a "details" link in a table of search results.

Link to sample page<http://devapps.sbctc.edu/TechPrepV2/SearchArticulations>;. Please just click the Search button under the search filter drop down lists to ensure (with our limited test data) that you actually get results.

The results are displayed in a 7-column table with the last column holding a "details" link which allows the user to see deeper details for that specific search results record.

In our old application, the "details" link was in the first column. I question that position because how can a screen reader user (reading left to right) decide to click on details before they know what they would be seeing details of? My rationale in putting it on the right column is that as content is read from left to right, the screen reader user would know what they are getting details for by the time they get to the details link.

My co-worker feels like the link gets lost over in the right column. I can understand that point of view too.

Thank you for your opinions - especially from those who use screen reader users.




Angela French
Internet/Intranet Specialist
Washington State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
360-704-4316
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
www.sbctc.edu<;http://www.sbctc.edu/>;

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Fri, Jul 14 2017 1:46PM
Subject: Re: location of details link
← Previous message | Next message →

I use screen readers (but don't use screen reader users, at least not
for personal gain).
If you have a column of links with identical text (e.g. "details") you
are breaking WCAG 2.4.4 if you don't add additional context.
That is one of the reasons why placing the "details" link on the left
side of a table is a bad idea.

The leftmost column in a table should contain row header cells. Row
header cells only work for columns to the right of that column (by
work I mean are announced by screen readers).
Having a row header cell associated with the "detail" link is
sufficient context or WCAG 2.4.4

So I would place whatever is the best identifier for the result in the
first column. The details can go in the second column (if absolutely
necessary) but preferably in the column on the right.
After all, users that are interested enough in a search result twant
detail will probably look at that table fairly carefully, or you can
style the details link text to draw attention.



On 7/14/17, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hello WebAIMers,
>
> We are redesigning a web application built about 8 years ago. This time
> around we want it to be more accessible.
>
> I would be grateful for your opinion in testing out the location of a
> "details" link in a table of search results.
>
> Link to sample
> page<http://devapps.sbctc.edu/TechPrepV2/SearchArticulations>;. Please just
> click the Search button under the search filter drop down lists to ensure
> (with our limited test data) that you actually get results.
>
> The results are displayed in a 7-column table with the last column holding a
> "details" link which allows the user to see deeper details for that specific
> search results record.
>
> In our old application, the "details" link was in the first column. I
> question that position because how can a screen reader user (reading left to
> right) decide to click on details before they know what they would be seeing
> details of? My rationale in putting it on the right column is that as
> content is read from left to right, the screen reader user would know what
> they are getting details for by the time they get to the details link.
>
> My co-worker feels like the link gets lost over in the right column. I can
> understand that point of view too.
>
> Thank you for your opinions - especially from those who use screen reader
> users.
>
>
>
>
> Angela French
> Internet/Intranet Specialist
> Washington State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
> 360-704-4316
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> www.sbctc.edu<;http://www.sbctc.edu/>;
>
> > > > >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Fri, Jul 14 2017 1:52PM
Subject: Re: location of details link
← Previous message | Next message →

> The details can go in the second column (if absolutely necessary) but preferably in the column on the right.

From a low vision user perspective I would not want the details at the far right as it is likely to be off the edge of the screen or missed when content is enlarged.

aria-describedby could be used to associate a more complete name with the link.

It is a shame that assistive technology does not correctly support row headers in other columns other than the first as this is a reasonable approach if it were supported.

Jonathan

Jonathan Avila
Chief Accessibility Officer
Level Access, inc. (formerly SSB BART Group, inc.)
(703) 637-8957
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Visit us online: Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog
Looking to boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free webinars!

The information contained in this transmission may be attorney privileged and/or confidential information intended for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2017 3:47 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] location of details link

I use screen readers (but don't use screen reader users, at least not for personal gain).
If you have a column of links with identical text (e.g. "details") you are breaking WCAG 2.4.4 if you don't add additional context.
That is one of the reasons why placing the "details" link on the left side of a table is a bad idea.

The leftmost column in a table should contain row header cells. Row header cells only work for columns to the right of that column (by work I mean are announced by screen readers).
Having a row header cell associated with the "detail" link is sufficient context or WCAG 2.4.4

So I would place whatever is the best identifier for the result in the first column. The details can go in the second column (if absolutely
necessary) but preferably in the column on the right.
After all, users that are interested enough in a search result twant detail will probably look at that table fairly carefully, or you can style the details link text to draw attention.



On 7/14/17, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hello WebAIMers,
>
> We are redesigning a web application built about 8 years ago. This
> time around we want it to be more accessible.
>
> I would be grateful for your opinion in testing out the location of a
> "details" link in a table of search results.
>
> Link to sample
> page<http://devapps.sbctc.edu/TechPrepV2/SearchArticulations>;. Please
> just click the Search button under the search filter drop down lists
> to ensure (with our limited test data) that you actually get results.
>
> The results are displayed in a 7-column table with the last column
> holding a "details" link which allows the user to see deeper details
> for that specific search results record.
>
> In our old application, the "details" link was in the first column. I
> question that position because how can a screen reader user (reading
> left to
> right) decide to click on details before they know what they would be
> seeing details of? My rationale in putting it on the right column is
> that as content is read from left to right, the screen reader user
> would know what they are getting details for by the time they get to the details link.
>
> My co-worker feels like the link gets lost over in the right column.
> I can understand that point of view too.
>
> Thank you for your opinions - especially from those who use screen
> reader users.
>
>
>
>
> Angela French
> Internet/Intranet Specialist
> Washington State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
> 360-704-4316
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> www.sbctc.edu<;http://www.sbctc.edu/>;
>
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: Angela French
Date: Fri, Jul 14 2017 1:54PM
Subject: Re: location of details link
← Previous message | Next message →

I am confused by your second paragraph. Could you elaborate please?

Angela French

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2017 12:47 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] location of details link

I use screen readers (but don't use screen reader users, at least not for personal gain).
If you have a column of links with identical text (e.g. "details") you are breaking WCAG 2.4.4 if you don't add additional context.
That is one of the reasons why placing the "details" link on the left side of a table is a bad idea.

The leftmost column in a table should contain row header cells. Row header cells only work for columns to the right of that column (by work I mean are announced by screen readers).
Having a row header cell associated with the "detail" link is sufficient context or WCAG 2.4.4

So I would place whatever is the best identifier for the result in the first column. The details can go in the second column (if absolutely
necessary) but preferably in the column on the right.
After all, users that are interested enough in a search result twant detail will probably look at that table fairly carefully, or you can style the details link text to draw attention.



On 7/14/17, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hello WebAIMers,
>
> We are redesigning a web application built about 8 years ago. This
> time around we want it to be more accessible.
>
> I would be grateful for your opinion in testing out the location of a
> "details" link in a table of search results.
>
> Link to sample
> page<http://devapps.sbctc.edu/TechPrepV2/SearchArticulations>;. Please
> just click the Search button under the search filter drop down lists
> to ensure (with our limited test data) that you actually get results.
>
> The results are displayed in a 7-column table with the last column
> holding a "details" link which allows the user to see deeper details
> for that specific search results record.
>
> In our old application, the "details" link was in the first column. I
> question that position because how can a screen reader user (reading
> left to
> right) decide to click on details before they know what they would be
> seeing details of? My rationale in putting it on the right column is
> that as content is read from left to right, the screen reader user
> would know what they are getting details for by the time they get to the details link.
>
> My co-worker feels like the link gets lost over in the right column.
> I can understand that point of view too.
>
> Thank you for your opinions - especially from those who use screen
> reader users.
>
>
>
>
> Angela French
> Internet/Intranet Specialist
> Washington State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
> 360-704-4316
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> www.sbctc.edu<;http://www.sbctc.edu/>;
>
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Fri, Jul 14 2017 1:58PM
Subject: Re: location of details link
← Previous message | Next message →

I agree, make sure low vision users are not cheated here.
Would it e possible to merge some of the cells or include some
additional info in the "details" section. I think a 7 column table is
a bit much for everyone (e.g. responsive) and a 3 or 4 column table
wit a details button might be better UI.

Column and row header cells that are not in first row/column work for
every cell beneath/to the right of them, but not to the left.
If I had a table with 3 columns and the middle column contains <th>
cells. If I navigate the leftmost column with a screen readers, the
header cells from the middle would not be read. If I navigate the
rightmost column they would be.



On 7/14/17, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> I am confused by your second paragraph. Could you elaborate please?
>
> Angela French
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
> Sent: Friday, July 14, 2017 12:47 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] location of details link
>
> I use screen readers (but don't use screen reader users, at least not for
> personal gain).
> If you have a column of links with identical text (e.g. "details") you are
> breaking WCAG 2.4.4 if you don't add additional context.
> That is one of the reasons why placing the "details" link on the left side
> of a table is a bad idea.
>
> The leftmost column in a table should contain row header cells. Row header
> cells only work for columns to the right of that column (by work I mean are
> announced by screen readers).
> Having a row header cell associated with the "detail" link is sufficient
> context or WCAG 2.4.4
>
> So I would place whatever is the best identifier for the result in the first
> column. The details can go in the second column (if absolutely
> necessary) but preferably in the column on the right.
> After all, users that are interested enough in a search result twant detail
> will probably look at that table fairly carefully, or you can style the
> details link text to draw attention.
>
>
>
> On 7/14/17, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> Hello WebAIMers,
>>
>> We are redesigning a web application built about 8 years ago. This
>> time around we want it to be more accessible.
>>
>> I would be grateful for your opinion in testing out the location of a
>> "details" link in a table of search results.
>>
>> Link to sample
>> page<http://devapps.sbctc.edu/TechPrepV2/SearchArticulations>;. Please
>> just click the Search button under the search filter drop down lists
>> to ensure (with our limited test data) that you actually get results.
>>
>> The results are displayed in a 7-column table with the last column
>> holding a "details" link which allows the user to see deeper details
>> for that specific search results record.
>>
>> In our old application, the "details" link was in the first column. I
>> question that position because how can a screen reader user (reading
>> left to
>> right) decide to click on details before they know what they would be
>> seeing details of? My rationale in putting it on the right column is
>> that as content is read from left to right, the screen reader user
>> would know what they are getting details for by the time they get to the
>> details link.
>>
>> My co-worker feels like the link gets lost over in the right column.
>> I can understand that point of view too.
>>
>> Thank you for your opinions - especially from those who use screen
>> reader users.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Angela French
>> Internet/Intranet Specialist
>> Washington State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
>> 360-704-4316
>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> www.sbctc.edu<;http://www.sbctc.edu/>;
>>
>> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >>
>
>
> --
> Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
> > > http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Fri, Jul 14 2017 2:04PM
Subject: Re: location of details link
← Previous message | Next message →

> Column and row header cells that are not in first row/column work for every cell beneath/to the right of them, but not to the left.

Ah right -- this is how the HTML specification calls for it -- I forgot that is how it was speced. I wonder why scope was specified that way.

Jonathan

Jonathan Avila
Chief Accessibility Officer
Level Access, inc. (formerly SSB BART Group, inc.)
(703) 637-8957
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Visit us online: Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog
Looking to boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free webinars!

The information contained in this transmission may be attorney privileged and/or confidential information intended for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2017 3:59 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] location of details link

I agree, make sure low vision users are not cheated here.
Would it e possible to merge some of the cells or include some additional info in the "details" section. I think a 7 column table is a bit much for everyone (e.g. responsive) and a 3 or 4 column table wit a details button might be better UI.

Column and row header cells that are not in first row/column work for every cell beneath/to the right of them, but not to the left.
If I had a table with 3 columns and the middle column contains <th> cells. If I navigate the leftmost column with a screen readers, the header cells from the middle would not be read. If I navigate the rightmost column they would be.



On 7/14/17, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> I am confused by your second paragraph. Could you elaborate please?
>
> Angela French
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
> Sent: Friday, July 14, 2017 12:47 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] location of details link
>
> I use screen readers (but don't use screen reader users, at least not
> for personal gain).
> If you have a column of links with identical text (e.g. "details") you
> are breaking WCAG 2.4.4 if you don't add additional context.
> That is one of the reasons why placing the "details" link on the left
> side of a table is a bad idea.
>
> The leftmost column in a table should contain row header cells. Row
> header cells only work for columns to the right of that column (by
> work I mean are announced by screen readers).
> Having a row header cell associated with the "detail" link is
> sufficient context or WCAG 2.4.4
>
> So I would place whatever is the best identifier for the result in the
> first column. The details can go in the second column (if absolutely
> necessary) but preferably in the column on the right.
> After all, users that are interested enough in a search result twant
> detail will probably look at that table fairly carefully, or you can
> style the details link text to draw attention.
>
>
>
> On 7/14/17, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> Hello WebAIMers,
>>
>> We are redesigning a web application built about 8 years ago. This
>> time around we want it to be more accessible.
>>
>> I would be grateful for your opinion in testing out the location of a
>> "details" link in a table of search results.
>>
>> Link to sample
>> page<http://devapps.sbctc.edu/TechPrepV2/SearchArticulations>;.
>> Please just click the Search button under the search filter drop down
>> lists to ensure (with our limited test data) that you actually get results.
>>
>> The results are displayed in a 7-column table with the last column
>> holding a "details" link which allows the user to see deeper details
>> for that specific search results record.
>>
>> In our old application, the "details" link was in the first column.
>> I question that position because how can a screen reader user
>> (reading left to
>> right) decide to click on details before they know what they would be
>> seeing details of? My rationale in putting it on the right column is
>> that as content is read from left to right, the screen reader user
>> would know what they are getting details for by the time they get to
>> the details link.
>>
>> My co-worker feels like the link gets lost over in the right column.
>> I can understand that point of view too.
>>
>> Thank you for your opinions - especially from those who use screen
>> reader users.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Angela French
>> Internet/Intranet Specialist
>> Washington State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
>> 360-704-4316
>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> www.sbctc.edu<;http://www.sbctc.edu/>;
>>
>> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >>
>
>
> --
> Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: Angela French
Date: Fri, Jul 14 2017 2:05PM
Subject: Re: location of details link
← Previous message | No next message

So taking Birkir's advice to put the most unique identifying column on the left, I believe that would be the Articulation column. There is nothing to keep ups from putting the Details link in the second column I suppose. The articulation name could be used in an aria-describedby attribute on the Details link, however there would likely be duplicates as there are articulations with the same name (we have 34 colleges in our system). I'm not sure how we could avoid non-distinguishable links altogether.

I will discuss with my workgroup whether it would be possible to reduce the number of columns and put that data in the details instead.

Angela French

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2017 12:59 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] location of details link

I agree, make sure low vision users are not cheated here.
Would it e possible to merge some of the cells or include some additional info in the "details" section. I think a 7 column table is a bit much for everyone (e.g. responsive) and a 3 or 4 column table wit a details button might be better UI.

Column and row header cells that are not in first row/column work for every cell beneath/to the right of them, but not to the left.
If I had a table with 3 columns and the middle column contains <th> cells. If I navigate the leftmost column with a screen readers, the header cells from the middle would not be read. If I navigate the rightmost column they would be.



On 7/14/17, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> I am confused by your second paragraph. Could you elaborate please?
>
> Angela French
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
> Sent: Friday, July 14, 2017 12:47 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] location of details link
>
> I use screen readers (but don't use screen reader users, at least not
> for personal gain).
> If you have a column of links with identical text (e.g. "details") you
> are breaking WCAG 2.4.4 if you don't add additional context.
> That is one of the reasons why placing the "details" link on the left
> side of a table is a bad idea.
>
> The leftmost column in a table should contain row header cells. Row
> header cells only work for columns to the right of that column (by
> work I mean are announced by screen readers).
> Having a row header cell associated with the "detail" link is
> sufficient context or WCAG 2.4.4
>
> So I would place whatever is the best identifier for the result in the
> first column. The details can go in the second column (if absolutely
> necessary) but preferably in the column on the right.
> After all, users that are interested enough in a search result twant
> detail will probably look at that table fairly carefully, or you can
> style the details link text to draw attention.
>
>
>
> On 7/14/17, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> Hello WebAIMers,
>>
>> We are redesigning a web application built about 8 years ago. This
>> time around we want it to be more accessible.
>>
>> I would be grateful for your opinion in testing out the location of a
>> "details" link in a table of search results.
>>
>> Link to sample
>> page<http://devapps.sbctc.edu/TechPrepV2/SearchArticulations>;.
>> Please just click the Search button under the search filter drop down
>> lists to ensure (with our limited test data) that you actually get results.
>>
>> The results are displayed in a 7-column table with the last column
>> holding a "details" link which allows the user to see deeper details
>> for that specific search results record.
>>
>> In our old application, the "details" link was in the first column.
>> I question that position because how can a screen reader user
>> (reading left to
>> right) decide to click on details before they know what they would be
>> seeing details of? My rationale in putting it on the right column is
>> that as content is read from left to right, the screen reader user
>> would know what they are getting details for by the time they get to
>> the details link.
>>
>> My co-worker feels like the link gets lost over in the right column.
>> I can understand that point of view too.
>>
>> Thank you for your opinions - especially from those who use screen
>> reader users.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Angela French
>> Internet/Intranet Specialist
>> Washington State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
>> 360-704-4316
>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> www.sbctc.edu<;http://www.sbctc.edu/>;
>>
>> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >>
>
>
> --
> Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.