E-mail List Archives

Thread: html 5 required

for

Number of posts in this thread: 6 (In chronological order)

From: Tomlins Diane
Date: Mon, Nov 06 2017 3:16PM
Subject: html 5 required
No previous message | Next message →

This just came up for us, and we just switched 70+ code files to use the html 5 "required' attribute. Now we find in testing, using NVDA 2017.3 with Firefox, NVDA announces empty fields as "invalid entry" the first time the user focuses on them, even before the error checking that takes place when a user hits the Submit button. So I would think this would make things confusing for AT users.

We tried adding aria-required="true" but that didn't help since we still have the "required" attribute in there too.

If I understand the replies to this thread, the "required' attribute is still a patchwork of support between browsers and AT??

Our developers won't be thrilled to back-pedal to take out the attribute they just put in :-/

Any possible workaround besides going back?

Thanks!

Diane R Tomlins
HCA IT&S | Digital Media
Accessibility SME


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Jonathan Avila
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2017 7:04 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] html 5 required

> I am confused. The label is exposed isn´t it, the way you wrote it.

I can confirm that with NVDA after a form is submitted and focus is moved to the field in error in some browsers NVDA only announces the error and not the label. If you open the speech viewer you will find the label is there -- which I believe indicates that the error message is being treated like an assertive live region and somehow interrupting the label from being announced.

In our testing of the HTML required attribute in different browsers the supports varied between browsers with screen readers. In addition, some browsers use a red border to indicate the error state while only providing a mouse involked tooltip further complicated the use of the required attribute as it could be claimed color alone was used to communicate the error visually to people with color deficiency who were not using a screen reader.

I would agree with Patrick that at this time if you need to support multiple browsers and multiple AT the support is not there yet to fully conform with this method alone. It’s a shame because it's a simple method that should be better supported without requiring developers to implement more complex and costly solutions.

Jonathan

Jonathan Avila
Chief Accessibility Officer
Level Access, inc. (formerly SSB BART Group, inc.)
(703) 637-8957
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Visit us online: Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog Looking to boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free webinars!

The information contained in this transmission may be attorney privileged and/or confidential information intended for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Sent: Saturday, August 5, 2017 1:19 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] html 5 required

I am confused. The label is exposed isn´t it, the way you wrote it.
If there is a title attribute or a placeholder, maybe those don´t get exposed when you add the required attribute?
Which browsers/a.t. combinations are you using?
Are you using a proper label assocaition?
Are you using either a title or placeholder attribute (on the input field)?
Cheers
-B

On 8/3/17, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Thanks for responding. I guess what confuses me is that if the cursor
> goes to the field (with the required message) and the field is
> labelled correctly, why isn't the label exposed again?
>
> Angela
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
> Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2017 2:51 PM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] html 5 required
>
> On 03/08/2017 22:45, Angela French wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> We are trying to use the html 5 required attribute on required form
>> fields. In testing, I am finding that each browser I test with (with
>> NVDA) handles it differently. The problem is that in most browsers I
>> hear the message that a field is required, but it doesn't tell me
>> WHICH field it is referring to even though the cursor goes to the first empty field.
>> The only browser that played very nicely on this was Chrome.
>> Curiously, even Chrome didn't read the required field message
>> ("Please fill out this field."). Rather it said "Last Name invalid entry required."
>>
>> Is there a way to make this behavior consistent?
>
> In short: don't use required attribute at this stage, but instead
> aria-required="true" and traditional custom error messages/bubbles.
>
> Regarding the "Please fill out this field", I assume you're referring
> to the default browser error tooltip bubble? If so, last time I
> checked (2 years ago), none of the browsers exposed the text they
> visually present
> -
> http://developer.telerik.com/featured/building-html5-form-validation-b
> ubble-replacements/#comment-2381878676
>
> So once again, better to use old custom-made bubbles to show error
> messages (and then tie them to the relevant form field with
> aria-describedby or similar).
>
> P
> --
> Patrick H. Lauke
>
> www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
> http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
> twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: Lucy Greco
Date: Mon, Nov 06 2017 3:23PM
Subject: Re: html 5 required
← Previous message | Next message →

hi the required should not be adding that are they indacating the type of
data that should be entered i.e. email or phone number that should be the
only way it is saying that. some thing else is giving you that feed back

Lucia Greco
Web Accessibility Evangelist
IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
Follow me on twitter @accessaces


On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 2:16 PM, Tomlins Diane <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

>
> This just came up for us, and we just switched 70+ code files to use the
> html 5 "required' attribute. Now we find in testing, using NVDA 2017.3 with
> Firefox, NVDA announces empty fields as "invalid entry" the first time the
> user focuses on them, even before the error checking that takes place when
> a user hits the Submit button. So I would think this would make things
> confusing for AT users.
>
> We tried adding aria-required="true" but that didn't help since we still
> have the "required" attribute in there too.
>
> If I understand the replies to this thread, the "required' attribute is
> still a patchwork of support between browsers and AT??
>
> Our developers won't be thrilled to back-pedal to take out the attribute
> they just put in :-/
>
> Any possible workaround besides going back?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Diane R Tomlins
> HCA IT&S | Digital Media
> Accessibility SME
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Jonathan Avila
> Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2017 7:04 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] html 5 required
>
> > I am confused. The label is exposed isn´t it, the way you wrote it.
>
> I can confirm that with NVDA after a form is submitted and focus is moved
> to the field in error in some browsers NVDA only announces the error and
> not the label. If you open the speech viewer you will find the label is
> there -- which I believe indicates that the error message is being treated
> like an assertive live region and somehow interrupting the label from being
> announced.
>
> In our testing of the HTML required attribute in different browsers the
> supports varied between browsers with screen readers. In addition, some
> browsers use a red border to indicate the error state while only providing
> a mouse involked tooltip further complicated the use of the required
> attribute as it could be claimed color alone was used to communicate the
> error visually to people with color deficiency who were not using a screen
> reader.
>
> I would agree with Patrick that at this time if you need to support
> multiple browsers and multiple AT the support is not there yet to fully
> conform with this method alone. It’s a shame because it's a simple method
> that should be better supported without requiring developers to implement
> more complex and costly solutions.
>
> Jonathan
>
> Jonathan Avila
> Chief Accessibility Officer
> Level Access, inc. (formerly SSB BART Group, inc.)
> (703) 637-8957
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Visit us online: Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog Looking to
> boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free webinars!
>
> The information contained in this transmission may be attorney privileged
> and/or confidential information intended for the use of the individual or
> entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended
> recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination,
> distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
> Sent: Saturday, August 5, 2017 1:19 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] html 5 required
>
> I am confused. The label is exposed isn´t it, the way you wrote it.
> If there is a title attribute or a placeholder, maybe those don´t get
> exposed when you add the required attribute?
> Which browsers/a.t. combinations are you using?
> Are you using a proper label assocaition?
> Are you using either a title or placeholder attribute (on the input field)?
> Cheers
> -B
>
> On 8/3/17, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > Thanks for responding. I guess what confuses me is that if the cursor
> > goes to the field (with the required message) and the field is
> > labelled correctly, why isn't the label exposed again?
> >
> > Angela
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> > Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
> > Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2017 2:51 PM
> > To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] html 5 required
> >
> > On 03/08/2017 22:45, Angela French wrote:
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> We are trying to use the html 5 required attribute on required form
> >> fields. In testing, I am finding that each browser I test with (with
> >> NVDA) handles it differently. The problem is that in most browsers I
> >> hear the message that a field is required, but it doesn't tell me
> >> WHICH field it is referring to even though the cursor goes to the first
> empty field.
> >> The only browser that played very nicely on this was Chrome.
> >> Curiously, even Chrome didn't read the required field message
> >> ("Please fill out this field."). Rather it said "Last Name invalid
> entry required."
> >>
> >> Is there a way to make this behavior consistent?
> >
> > In short: don't use required attribute at this stage, but instead
> > aria-required="true" and traditional custom error messages/bubbles.
> >
> > Regarding the "Please fill out this field", I assume you're referring
> > to the default browser error tooltip bubble? If so, last time I
> > checked (2 years ago), none of the browsers exposed the text they
> > visually present
> > -
> > http://developer.telerik.com/featured/building-html5-form-validation-b
> > ubble-replacements/#comment-2381878676
> >
> > So once again, better to use old custom-made bubbles to show error
> > messages (and then tie them to the relevant form field with
> > aria-describedby or similar).
> >
> > P
> > --
> > Patrick H. Lauke
> >
> > www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
> > http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
> > twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
> > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >
>
>
> --
> Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
> > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >

From: Bim Egan
Date: Mon, Nov 06 2017 3:36PM
Subject: Re: html 5 required
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Diane,

Screen reader users are getting used to it. Usually only happens in Firefox
though. It's up to newer versions of AT and browsers to get their heads
together and find the fix. Don't be tempted to a hack, it's likely to break
something more important, either now or in the unforeseeable future.

Check the markup by all means but once you're sure that it meets the
standard, it's up to the other accessibility dependencies to catch up.

HTH,

Bim

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
Of Tomlins Diane
Sent: 06 November 2017 22:16
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] html 5 required


This just came up for us, and we just switched 70+ code files to use the
html 5 "required' attribute. Now we find in testing, using NVDA 2017.3 with
Firefox, NVDA announces empty fields as "invalid entry" the first time the
user focuses on them, even before the error checking that takes place when a
user hits the Submit button. So I would think this would make things
confusing for AT users.

We tried adding aria-required="true" but that didn't help since we still
have the "required" attribute in there too.

If I understand the replies to this thread, the "required' attribute is
still a patchwork of support between browsers and AT??

Our developers won't be thrilled to back-pedal to take out the attribute
they just put in :-/

Any possible workaround besides going back?

Thanks!

Diane R Tomlins
HCA IT&S | Digital Media
Accessibility SME


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
Of Jonathan Avila
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2017 7:04 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] html 5 required

> I am confused. The label is exposed isn´t it, the way you wrote it.

I can confirm that with NVDA after a form is submitted and focus is moved to
the field in error in some browsers NVDA only announces the error and not
the label. If you open the speech viewer you will find the label is there
-- which I believe indicates that the error message is being treated like an
assertive live region and somehow interrupting the label from being
announced.

In our testing of the HTML required attribute in different browsers the
supports varied between browsers with screen readers. In addition, some
browsers use a red border to indicate the error state while only providing a
mouse involked tooltip further complicated the use of the required attribute
as it could be claimed color alone was used to communicate the error
visually to people with color deficiency who were not using a screen reader.

I would agree with Patrick that at this time if you need to support multiple
browsers and multiple AT the support is not there yet to fully conform with
this method alone. It’s a shame because it's a simple method that should be
better supported without requiring developers to implement more complex and
costly solutions.

Jonathan

Jonathan Avila
Chief Accessibility Officer
Level Access, inc. (formerly SSB BART Group, inc.)
(703) 637-8957
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Visit us online: Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog Looking to
boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free webinars!

The information contained in this transmission may be attorney privileged
and/or confidential information intended for the use of the individual or
entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution
or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Sent: Saturday, August 5, 2017 1:19 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] html 5 required

I am confused. The label is exposed isn´t it, the way you wrote it.
If there is a title attribute or a placeholder, maybe those don´t get
exposed when you add the required attribute?
Which browsers/a.t. combinations are you using?
Are you using a proper label assocaition?
Are you using either a title or placeholder attribute (on the input field)?
Cheers
-B

On 8/3/17, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Thanks for responding. I guess what confuses me is that if the cursor
> goes to the field (with the required message) and the field is
> labelled correctly, why isn't the label exposed again?
>
> Angela
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
> Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2017 2:51 PM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] html 5 required
>
> On 03/08/2017 22:45, Angela French wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> We are trying to use the html 5 required attribute on required form
>> fields. In testing, I am finding that each browser I test with (with
>> NVDA) handles it differently. The problem is that in most browsers I
>> hear the message that a field is required, but it doesn't tell me
>> WHICH field it is referring to even though the cursor goes to the first
empty field.
>> The only browser that played very nicely on this was Chrome.
>> Curiously, even Chrome didn't read the required field message
>> ("Please fill out this field."). Rather it said "Last Name invalid
entry required."
>>
>> Is there a way to make this behavior consistent?
>
> In short: don't use required attribute at this stage, but instead
> aria-required="true" and traditional custom error messages/bubbles.
>
> Regarding the "Please fill out this field", I assume you're referring
> to the default browser error tooltip bubble? If so, last time I
> checked (2 years ago), none of the browsers exposed the text they
> visually present
> -
> http://developer.telerik.com/featured/building-html5-form-validation-b
> ubble-replacements/#comment-2381878676
>
> So once again, better to use old custom-made bubbles to show error
> messages (and then tie them to the relevant form field with
> aria-describedby or similar).
>
> P
> --
> Patrick H. Lauke
>
> www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
> http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
> twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com

From: Beranek, Nicholas
Date: Mon, Nov 06 2017 4:47PM
Subject: Re: html 5 required
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Diane, I recommend keeping the required attribute. For compatibility, I would add the value “required”, as well. You’re encountering expected behavior with NVDA and Firefox because, by definition, since a value is required, lack of a value, or null value, would be invalid. I am always hesitant to include a hack to appease a browser/AT, and the use of the required attribute is a sufficient technique.

Nick Beranek
Capital One

On Nov 6, 2017, at 5:17 PM, Tomlins Diane < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >> wrote:


This just came up for us, and we just switched 70+ code files to use the html 5 "required' attribute. Now we find in testing, using NVDA 2017.3 with Firefox, NVDA announces empty fields as "invalid entry" the first time the user focuses on them, even before the error checking that takes place when a user hits the Submit button. So I would think this would make things confusing for AT users.

We tried adding aria-required="true" but that didn't help since we still have the "required" attribute in there too.

If I understand the replies to this thread, the "required' attribute is still a patchwork of support between browsers and AT??

Our developers won't be thrilled to back-pedal to take out the attribute they just put in :-/

Any possible workaround besides going back?

Thanks!

Diane R Tomlins
HCA IT&S | Digital Media
Accessibility SME


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Jonathan Avila
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2017 7:04 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] html 5 required

I am confused. The label is exposed isn´t it, the way you wrote it.

I can confirm that with NVDA after a form is submitted and focus is moved to the field in error in some browsers NVDA only announces the error and not the label. If you open the speech viewer you will find the label is there -- which I believe indicates that the error message is being treated like an assertive live region and somehow interrupting the label from being announced.

In our testing of the HTML required attribute in different browsers the supports varied between browsers with screen readers. In addition, some browsers use a red border to indicate the error state while only providing a mouse involked tooltip further complicated the use of the required attribute as it could be claimed color alone was used to communicate the error visually to people with color deficiency who were not using a screen reader.

I would agree with Patrick that at this time if you need to support multiple browsers and multiple AT the support is not there yet to fully conform with this method alone. It’s a shame because it's a simple method that should be better supported without requiring developers to implement more complex and costly solutions.

Jonathan

Jonathan Avila
Chief Accessibility Officer
Level Access, inc. (formerly SSB BART Group, inc.)
(703) 637-8957
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Visit us online: Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog Looking to boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free webinars!

The information contained in this transmission may be attorney privileged and/or confidential information intended for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Sent: Saturday, August 5, 2017 1:19 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] html 5 required

I am confused. The label is exposed isn´t it, the way you wrote it.
If there is a title attribute or a placeholder, maybe those don´t get exposed when you add the required attribute?
Which browsers/a.t. combinations are you using?
Are you using a proper label assocaition?
Are you using either a title or placeholder attribute (on the input field)?
Cheers
-B

On 8/3/17, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >> wrote:
Thanks for responding. I guess what confuses me is that if the cursor
goes to the field (with the required message) and the field is
labelled correctly, why isn't the label exposed again?

Angela

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2017 2:51 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] html 5 required

On 03/08/2017 22:45, Angela French wrote:
Hello,

We are trying to use the html 5 required attribute on required form
fields. In testing, I am finding that each browser I test with (with
NVDA) handles it differently. The problem is that in most browsers I
hear the message that a field is required, but it doesn't tell me
WHICH field it is referring to even though the cursor goes to the first empty field.
The only browser that played very nicely on this was Chrome.
Curiously, even Chrome didn't read the required field message
("Please fill out this field."). Rather it said "Last Name invalid entry required."

Is there a way to make this behavior consistent?

In short: don't use required attribute at this stage, but instead
aria-required="true" and traditional custom error messages/bubbles.

Regarding the "Please fill out this field", I assume you're referring
to the default browser error tooltip bubble? If so, last time I
checked (2 years ago), none of the browsers exposed the text they
visually present
-
http://developer.telerik.com/featured/building-html5-form-validation-b
ubble-replacements/#comment-2381878676

So once again, better to use old custom-made bubbles to show error
messages (and then tie them to the relevant form field with
aria-describedby or similar).

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

www.splintered.co.uk<;http://www.splintered.co.uk>; | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and/or proprietary to Capital One and/or its affiliates and may only be used solely in performance of work or services for Capital One. The information transmitted herewith is intended only for use by the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from your computer.

From: Steve Faulkner
Date: Mon, Nov 06 2017 5:47PM
Subject: Re: html 5 required
← Previous message | Next message →

>
> Now we find in testing, using NVDA 2017.3 with Firefox, NVDA announces
> empty fields as "invalid entry" the first time the user focuses on them,
> even before the error checking that takes place when a user hits the Submit
> button.


This is not due to any screen reader, it is due to the required attribute
being exposed as required and invalid in browser accessibility APIs. The
reasoning behind this is that until a required control has received some
user input, it does not meet its validation constraints and is therefore in
an invalid state.

discussion of this is in a related Firefox bug
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?idf6544



--

Regards

SteveF
Current Standards Work @W3C
<http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2015/03/current-standards-work-at-w3c/>;

On 6 November 2017 at 23:47, Beranek, Nicholas via WebAIM-Forum <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hi Diane, I recommend keeping the required attribute. For compatibility, I
> would add the value “required”, as well. You’re encountering expected
> behavior with NVDA and Firefox because, by definition, since a value is
> required, lack of a value, or null value, would be invalid. I am always
> hesitant to include a hack to appease a browser/AT, and the use of the
> required attribute is a sufficient technique.
>
> Nick Beranek
> Capital One
>
> On Nov 6, 2017, at 5:17 PM, Tomlins Diane <Diane.Tomlins@HCAhealthcare.
> com<mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >> wrote:
>
>
> This just came up for us, and we just switched 70+ code files to use the
> html 5 "required' attribute. Now we find in testing, using NVDA 2017.3 with
> Firefox, NVDA announces empty fields as "invalid entry" the first time the
> user focuses on them, even before the error checking that takes place when
> a user hits the Submit button. So I would think this would make things
> confusing for AT users.
>
> We tried adding aria-required="true" but that didn't help since we still
> have the "required" attribute in there too.
>
> If I understand the replies to this thread, the "required' attribute is
> still a patchwork of support between browsers and AT??
>
> Our developers won't be thrilled to back-pedal to take out the attribute
> they just put in :-/
>
> Any possible workaround besides going back?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Diane R Tomlins
> HCA IT&S | Digital Media
> Accessibility SME
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Jonathan Avila
> Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2017 7:04 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto:
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] html 5 required
>
> I am confused. The label is exposed isn´t it, the way you wrote it.
>
> I can confirm that with NVDA after a form is submitted and focus is moved
> to the field in error in some browsers NVDA only announces the error and
> not the label. If you open the speech viewer you will find the label is
> there -- which I believe indicates that the error message is being treated
> like an assertive live region and somehow interrupting the label from being
> announced.
>
> In our testing of the HTML required attribute in different browsers the
> supports varied between browsers with screen readers. In addition, some
> browsers use a red border to indicate the error state while only providing
> a mouse involked tooltip further complicated the use of the required
> attribute as it could be claimed color alone was used to communicate the
> error visually to people with color deficiency who were not using a screen
> reader.
>
> I would agree with Patrick that at this time if you need to support
> multiple browsers and multiple AT the support is not there yet to fully
> conform with this method alone. It’s a shame because it's a simple method
> that should be better supported without requiring developers to implement
> more complex and costly solutions.
>
> Jonathan
>
> Jonathan Avila
> Chief Accessibility Officer
> Level Access, inc. (formerly SSB BART Group, inc.)
> (703) 637-8957
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Visit us online: Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog Looking to
> boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free webinars!
>
> The information contained in this transmission may be attorney privileged
> and/or confidential information intended for the use of the individual or
> entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended
> recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination,
> distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
> Sent: Saturday, August 5, 2017 1:19 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto:
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] html 5 required
>
> I am confused. The label is exposed isn´t it, the way you wrote it.
> If there is a title attribute or a placeholder, maybe those don´t get
> exposed when you add the required attribute?
> Which browsers/a.t. combinations are you using?
> Are you using a proper label assocaition?
> Are you using either a title or placeholder attribute (on the input field)?
> Cheers
> -B
>
> On 8/3/17, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
> wrote:
> Thanks for responding. I guess what confuses me is that if the cursor
> goes to the field (with the required message) and the field is
> labelled correctly, why isn't the label exposed again?
>
> Angela
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
> Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2017 2:51 PM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] html 5 required
>
> On 03/08/2017 22:45, Angela French wrote:
> Hello,
>
> We are trying to use the html 5 required attribute on required form
> fields. In testing, I am finding that each browser I test with (with
> NVDA) handles it differently. The problem is that in most browsers I
> hear the message that a field is required, but it doesn't tell me
> WHICH field it is referring to even though the cursor goes to the first
> empty field.
> The only browser that played very nicely on this was Chrome.
> Curiously, even Chrome didn't read the required field message
> ("Please fill out this field."). Rather it said "Last Name invalid entry
> required."
>
> Is there a way to make this behavior consistent?
>
> In short: don't use required attribute at this stage, but instead
> aria-required="true" and traditional custom error messages/bubbles.
>
> Regarding the "Please fill out this field", I assume you're referring
> to the default browser error tooltip bubble? If so, last time I
> checked (2 years ago), none of the browsers exposed the text they
> visually present
> -
> http://developer.telerik.com/featured/building-html5-form-validation-b
> ubble-replacements/#comment-2381878676
>
> So once again, better to use old custom-made bubbles to show error
> messages (and then tie them to the relevant form field with
> aria-describedby or similar).
>
> P
> --
> Patrick H. Lauke
>
> www.splintered.co.uk<;http://www.splintered.co.uk>; | https://github.com/
> patrickhlauke
> http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
> twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>
>
>
> --
> Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
> > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > > _________________
> > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > > > > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> >
> The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and/or
> proprietary to Capital One and/or its affiliates and may only be used
> solely in performance of work or services for Capital One. The information
> transmitted herewith is intended only for use by the individual or entity
> to which it is addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended
> recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, retransmission,
> dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of, or taking of any
> action in reliance upon this information is strictly prohibited. If you
> have received this communication in error, please contact the sender and
> delete the material from your computer.
> > > > >

From: Tomlins Diane
Date: Wed, Nov 08 2017 8:55AM
Subject: Re: html 5 required
← Previous message | No next message

Thanks everyone for your input, very helpful. Since it's apparent NVDA users are accustomed to it and it's a Firefox bug, then we'll move forward with the "required" value. I did run across a form on another site that did exactly the same thing!

Diane R Tomlins
HCA IT&S | Digital Media
Accessibility SME


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Steve Faulkner
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2017 6:48 PM
To: Beranek, Nicholas < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >; WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] html 5 required

>
> Now we find in testing, using NVDA 2017.3 with Firefox, NVDA announces
> empty fields as "invalid entry" the first time the user focuses on
> them, even before the error checking that takes place when a user hits
> the Submit button.


This is not due to any screen reader, it is due to the required attribute being exposed as required and invalid in browser accessibility APIs. The reasoning behind this is that until a required control has received some user input, it does not meet its validation constraints and is therefore in an invalid state.

discussion of this is in a related Firefox bug
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?idf6544



--

Regards

SteveF
Current Standards Work @W3C
<http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2015/03/current-standards-work-at-w3c/>;

On 6 November 2017 at 23:47, Beranek, Nicholas via WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hi Diane, I recommend keeping the required attribute. For
> compatibility, I would add the value “required”, as well. You’re
> encountering expected behavior with NVDA and Firefox because, by
> definition, since a value is required, lack of a value, or null value,
> would be invalid. I am always hesitant to include a hack to appease a
> browser/AT, and the use of the required attribute is a sufficient technique.
>
> Nick Beranek
> Capital One
>
> On Nov 6, 2017, at 5:17 PM, Tomlins Diane <Diane.Tomlins@HCAhealthcare.
> com<mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >> wrote:
>
>
> This just came up for us, and we just switched 70+ code files to use
> the html 5 "required' attribute. Now we find in testing, using NVDA
> 2017.3 with Firefox, NVDA announces empty fields as "invalid entry"
> the first time the user focuses on them, even before the error
> checking that takes place when a user hits the Submit button. So I
> would think this would make things confusing for AT users.
>
> We tried adding aria-required="true" but that didn't help since we
> still have the "required" attribute in there too.
>
> If I understand the replies to this thread, the "required' attribute
> is still a patchwork of support between browsers and AT??
>
> Our developers won't be thrilled to back-pedal to take out the
> attribute they just put in :-/
>
> Any possible workaround besides going back?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Diane R Tomlins
> HCA IT&S | Digital Media
> Accessibility SME
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Jonathan Avila
> Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2017 7:04 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto:
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] html 5 required
>
> I am confused. The label is exposed isn´t it, the way you wrote it.
>
> I can confirm that with NVDA after a form is submitted and focus is
> moved to the field in error in some browsers NVDA only announces the
> error and not the label. If you open the speech viewer you will find
> the label is there -- which I believe indicates that the error message
> is being treated like an assertive live region and somehow
> interrupting the label from being announced.
>
> In our testing of the HTML required attribute in different browsers
> the supports varied between browsers with screen readers. In
> addition, some browsers use a red border to indicate the error state
> while only providing a mouse involked tooltip further complicated the
> use of the required attribute as it could be claimed color alone was
> used to communicate the error visually to people with color deficiency
> who were not using a screen reader.
>
> I would agree with Patrick that at this time if you need to support
> multiple browsers and multiple AT the support is not there yet to
> fully conform with this method alone. It’s a shame because it's a
> simple method that should be better supported without requiring
> developers to implement more complex and costly solutions.
>
> Jonathan
>
> Jonathan Avila
> Chief Accessibility Officer
> Level Access, inc. (formerly SSB BART Group, inc.)
> (703) 637-8957
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Visit us online: Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog
> Looking to boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free webinars!
>
> The information contained in this transmission may be attorney
> privileged and/or confidential information intended for the use of the
> individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not
> the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use,
> dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
> Sent: Saturday, August 5, 2017 1:19 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto:
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] html 5 required
>
> I am confused. The label is exposed isn´t it, the way you wrote it.
> If there is a title attribute or a placeholder, maybe those don´t get
> exposed when you add the required attribute?
> Which browsers/a.t. combinations are you using?
> Are you using a proper label assocaition?
> Are you using either a title or placeholder attribute (on the input field)?
> Cheers
> -B
>
> On 8/3/17, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
> wrote:
> Thanks for responding. I guess what confuses me is that if the cursor
> goes to the field (with the required message) and the field is
> labelled correctly, why isn't the label exposed again?
>
> Angela
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
> Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2017 2:51 PM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] html 5 required
>
> On 03/08/2017 22:45, Angela French wrote:
> Hello,
>
> We are trying to use the html 5 required attribute on required form
> fields. In testing, I am finding that each browser I test with (with
> NVDA) handles it differently. The problem is that in most browsers I
> hear the message that a field is required, but it doesn't tell me
> WHICH field it is referring to even though the cursor goes to the
> first empty field.
> The only browser that played very nicely on this was Chrome.
> Curiously, even Chrome didn't read the required field message ("Please
> fill out this field."). Rather it said "Last Name invalid entry
> required."
>
> Is there a way to make this behavior consistent?
>
> In short: don't use required attribute at this stage, but instead
> aria-required="true" and traditional custom error messages/bubbles.
>
> Regarding the "Please fill out this field", I assume you're referring
> to the default browser error tooltip bubble? If so, last time I
> checked (2 years ago), none of the browsers exposed the text they
> visually present
> -
> http://developer.telerik.com/featured/building-html5-form-validation-b
> ubble-replacements/#comment-2381878676
>
> So once again, better to use old custom-made bubbles to show error
> messages (and then tie them to the relevant form field with
> aria-describedby or similar).
>
> P
> --
> Patrick H. Lauke
>
> www.splintered.co.uk<;http://www.splintered.co.uk>; |
> https://github.com/ patrickhlauke http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ |
> http://redux.deviantart.com
> twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>
>
>
> --
> Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > > _________________ > http://list.webaim.org/ List archives at
> http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> >
> The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and/or
> proprietary to Capital One and/or its affiliates and may only be used
> solely in performance of work or services for Capital One. The
> information transmitted herewith is intended only for use by the
> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If the reader of this
> message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that
> any review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, copying or
> other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this
> information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
> communication in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from your computer.
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >