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From: Sarah Ferguson
Date: Tue, Nov 07 2017 8:54AM
Subject: transcript links
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Hi everyone,

A quick question about transcript links...

Normally, when we have a thumbnail for a video embedded on a page, we have
a link to the transcript immediately following it. We have a few pages that
are entirely videos, so imagine an H1 followed by dozen tiles of embedded
video thumbnails, each with a title of the video.

Obviously, we can't have the link "video transcript" under each, because
then the links would not be unique or descriptive enough. We could put
"[Title of video] transcript" underneath. the problem is, some of the
titles are quite long and it does not look good in the tiled layout. Is
there any reason we couldn't add a heading "Video Transcripts" to the page
and then list each video title as a link?

Trying to think outside the box to make the higher-ups happy :)

thanks,

Sarah

From: Wolfgang Berndorfer
Date: Tue, Nov 07 2017 12:26PM
Subject: Re: transcript links
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Hi Sarah,
Seems, your proposed headings are here a navigational and usability issue:
Semantic headings: As Screen Reader user, I nearly can't have enough of
them.
Usability: The length of the texting is no problem when I can guess the
content after a few words.
Hope, I caught Your question!
Wolfgang

http://www.zweiterblick.at

From: Sarah Ferguson
Date: Tue, Nov 07 2017 12:42PM
Subject: Re: transcript links
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Hi Wolfgang,

Are you saying each link has to say it is a transcript?

For example,

(H2) Video Transcripts

(link) "[Film name] transcript"
(link) "[Film name 2] transcript"
(link) "[Film name 3] transcript"


Sarah


On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 2:26 PM, Wolfgang Berndorfer <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hi Sarah,
> Seems, your proposed headings are here a navigational and usability issue:
> Semantic headings: As Screen Reader user, I nearly can't have enough of
> them.
> Usability: The length of the texting is no problem when I can guess the
> content after a few words.
> Hope, I caught Your question!
> Wolfgang
>
> http://www.zweiterblick.at
>
> > > > >

From: Wolfgang Berndorfer
Date: Tue, Nov 07 2017 12:52PM
Subject: Re: transcript links
← Previous message | Next message →

In your example it seems, each link should be an element of a list (UL).

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] Im Auftrag
von Sarah Ferguson
Gesendet: Dienstag, 07. November 2017 20:43
An: WebAIM Discussion List
Betreff: Re: [WebAIM] transcript links

Hi Wolfgang,

Are you saying each link has to say it is a transcript?

For example,

(H2) Video Transcripts

(link) "[Film name] transcript"
(link) "[Film name 2] transcript"
(link) "[Film name 3] transcript"


Sarah


On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 2:26 PM, Wolfgang Berndorfer <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hi Sarah,
> Seems, your proposed headings are here a navigational and usability issue:
> Semantic headings: As Screen Reader user, I nearly can't have enough of
> them.
> Usability: The length of the texting is no problem when I can guess the
> content after a few words.
> Hope, I caught Your question!
> Wolfgang
>
> http://www.zweiterblick.at
>
> > > > >

From: Sarah Ferguson
Date: Tue, Nov 07 2017 2:25PM
Subject: Re: transcript links
← Previous message | Next message →

yes, sorry, that's not actual coding, my email won't do headings either, it
was all written plainly.

on the web it would be coded as a list

Sarah Ferguson
Web Accessibility Specialist
Department of Digital Communications
Brandeis University *|* 781.736.4259
www.brandeis.edu/web-accessibility
*Web Accessibility Help Desk: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >*


On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 2:52 PM, Wolfgang Berndorfer <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> In your example it seems, each link should be an element of a list (UL).
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] Im Auftrag
> von Sarah Ferguson
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 07. November 2017 20:43
> An: WebAIM Discussion List
> Betreff: Re: [WebAIM] transcript links
>
> Hi Wolfgang,
>
> Are you saying each link has to say it is a transcript?
>
> For example,
>
> (H2) Video Transcripts
>
> (link) "[Film name] transcript"
> (link) "[Film name 2] transcript"
> (link) "[Film name 3] transcript"
>
>
> Sarah
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 2:26 PM, Wolfgang Berndorfer <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Hi Sarah,
> > Seems, your proposed headings are here a navigational and usability
> issue:
> > Semantic headings: As Screen Reader user, I nearly can't have enough of
> > them.
> > Usability: The length of the texting is no problem when I can guess the
> > content after a few words.
> > Hope, I caught Your question!
> > Wolfgang
> >
> > http://www.zweiterblick.at
> >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >

From: Jared Smith
Date: Tue, Nov 07 2017 2:36PM
Subject: Re: transcript links
← Previous message | Next message →

On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 8:54 AM, Sarah Ferguson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Obviously, we can't have the link "video transcript" under each, because
> then the links would not be unique or descriptive enough.

I think you're over-thinking this. The links *would* be descriptive
within the context of the video they follow. This is allowable under
WCAG 2.0 at level AA (at level AAA the links would have to be
descriptive by themselves). The overhead of significantly lengthy
links with lots of repetition would likely be worse than short links
that make sense in a programmatic context.

A very usable approach would be:

<h2>Video title</h2>
{video goes here}
<p><a href="transcript.htm">Transcript</a></p>

... for each video. There's context there to readily differentiate
each video and transcript link.

Jared

From: Sarah Ferguson
Date: Tue, Nov 07 2017 2:40PM
Subject: Re: transcript links
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Thanks, Jared. that would be ideal.

Sarah Ferguson
Web Accessibility Specialist
Department of Digital Communications
Brandeis University *|* 781.736.4259
www.brandeis.edu/web-accessibility
*Web Accessibility Help Desk: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >*


On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 4:36 PM, Jared Smith < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 8:54 AM, Sarah Ferguson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Obviously, we can't have the link "video transcript" under each, because
> > then the links would not be unique or descriptive enough.
>
> I think you're over-thinking this. The links *would* be descriptive
> within the context of the video they follow. This is allowable under
> WCAG 2.0 at level AA (at level AAA the links would have to be
> descriptive by themselves). The overhead of significantly lengthy
> links with lots of repetition would likely be worse than short links
> that make sense in a programmatic context.
>
> A very usable approach would be:
>
> <h2>Video title</h2>
> {video goes here}
> <p><a href="transcript.htm">Transcript</a></p>
>
> ... for each video. There's context there to readily differentiate
> each video and transcript link.
>
> Jared
> > > > >

From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Wed, Nov 08 2017 12:28AM
Subject: Re: transcript links
← Previous message | Next message →

> A very usable approach would be:
<h2>Video title</h2>
{video goes here}
<p><a href="transcript.htm">Transcript</a></p>
... for each video. There's context there to readily differentiate each video and transcript link.


I would note that the understanding documents for SC 2.4.4 no longer note headings as a way to meet SC 2.4.4. It Identifies options for link context within a sentence, paragraph, list item, or table cell/header, or link text. Preceeding heading is listed as advisory and not as a sufficient technique.
https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/navigation-mechanisms-refs.html

Jonathan


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Jared Smith
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2017 4:37 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] transcript links

On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 8:54 AM, Sarah Ferguson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Obviously, we can't have the link "video transcript" under each,
> because then the links would not be unique or descriptive enough.

I think you're over-thinking this. The links *would* be descriptive within the context of the video they follow. This is allowable under WCAG 2.0 at level AA (at level AAA the links would have to be descriptive by themselves). The overhead of significantly lengthy links with lots of repetition would likely be worse than short links that make sense in a programmatic context.

A very usable approach would be:

<h2>Video title</h2>
{video goes here}
<p><a href="transcript.htm">Transcript</a></p>

... for each video. There's context there to readily differentiate each video and transcript link.

Jared

From: Jared Smith
Date: Wed, Nov 08 2017 11:28AM
Subject: Re: transcript links
← Previous message | Next message →

Jonathan Avila wrote:

> I would note that the understanding documents for SC 2.4.4 no longer note headings as a way to meet SC 2.4.4.

It's a good thing this is entirely non-normative. If the pattern I
outlined is not sufficient to meet the SC, but...
<p>Video title <a href="transcript.htm">transcript</a></p>
... is, then this is certainly a notable disconnect between best
practice and WCAG.

Jared

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Wed, Nov 08 2017 3:13PM
Subject: Re: transcript links
← Previous message | Next message →

You can actualy go all CS content on this, use a visually hidden
content attribute with the word "Transcript" or "video transcript" and
use a CSS selector to add it to every link with a certain class name,
like class="video"
Then the text of the link can be the name of the video.
I don't understand why a preceeding heading Is not considered
sufficient programmatic context by WCAG, while a paragraph or sentence
is.




On 11/8/17, Jared Smith < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Jonathan Avila wrote:
>
>> I would note that the understanding documents for SC 2.4.4 no longer note
>> headings as a way to meet SC 2.4.4.
>
> It's a good thing this is entirely non-normative. If the pattern I
> outlined is not sufficient to meet the SC, but...
> <p>Video title <a href="transcript.htm">transcript</a></p>
> ... is, then this is certainly a notable disconnect between best
> practice and WCAG.
>
> Jared
> > > > >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Wed, Nov 08 2017 3:46PM
Subject: Re: transcript links
← Previous message | Next message →

> I don't understand why a preceeding heading Is not considered sufficient programmatic context by WCAG, while a paragraph or sentence is.

The idea is that the user should be able to hear the context without having to move focus from the link. There are screen reader commands for those other things which don't require you move focus. Only JAWS supported announcing the preceding heading with the insert+t command -- so that technique was not assistive technology supported.

Jonathan

Jonathan Avila
Chief Accessibility Officer
Level Access, inc. (formerly SSB BART Group, inc.)
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
703.637.8957 (Office)
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-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2017 5:13 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] transcript links

You can actualy go all CS content on this, use a visually hidden content attribute with the word "Transcript" or "video transcript" and use a CSS selector to add it to every link with a certain class name, like class="video"
Then the text of the link can be the name of the video.
I don't understand why a preceeding heading Is not considered sufficient programmatic context by WCAG, while a paragraph or sentence is.




On 11/8/17, Jared Smith < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Jonathan Avila wrote:
>
>> I would note that the understanding documents for SC 2.4.4 no longer
>> note headings as a way to meet SC 2.4.4.
>
> It's a good thing this is entirely non-normative. If the pattern I
> outlined is not sufficient to meet the SC, but...
> <p>Video title <a href="transcript.htm">transcript</a></p>
> ... is, then this is certainly a notable disconnect between best
> practice and WCAG.
>
> Jared
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: Bourne, Sarah (MASSIT)
Date: Thu, Nov 09 2017 9:26AM
Subject: Re: transcript links
← Previous message | Next message →

Well, this doesn't seem quite right to me.
> " The idea is that the user should be able to hear the context without having to move focus from the link"
That's a fine idea, but it's not stated as a requirement for 2.4.4. Under Intent of this Success Criterion it says, " In some situations, authors may want to provide part of the description of the link in logically related text that provides the context for the link. In this case the user should be able to identify the purpose of the link without moving focus from the link." "Should" is not the same as "must". And the Failure Criterion "F63: Failure of Success Criterion 2.4.4 due to providing link context only in content that is not related to the link" says that it fails " If the context for the link is not provided in one of the following ways:" and then gives "in the preceding heading" in the list.

That being said, I usually encourage meeting 2.4.9 Link Purpose (Link Only) whenever possible, by using visually-hidden text. I'm tempted to move to using ARIA-LABELLEDBY in situations like this, but there are still some glitches in browser/AT support [1]. And sometimes the link text can get overly long.

[1] https://www.powermapper.com/tests/screen-readers/labelling/a-aria-labelledby/


Sarah E. Bourne
Director of IT Accessibility
Executive Office of Technology Services and Security (EOTSS)
1 Ashburton Place, 8th Floor, Boston, MA 02108
Office: (617) 626-4502
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = | www.mass.gov/eotss

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Thu, Nov 09 2017 12:32PM
Subject: Re: transcript links
← Previous message | No next message

Jon, I see your point, but I don't necessarily agree with it.
To look at the same sentence or paragraph, the user does need to
navigate outside the link, if only with the arrow keys. And we should
let screen reader implementation affect authoring techniques. If
announcing the preceeding heading is useful for users, there is no
reason (as far as I know) why screen readers can't implement a
shortcut key for it.

Headings are logical section labels (e.g. marking the start of a news
story), and thus are the most logical context for links with otherwise
identical text (e.g. the dreaded "read more").
I recommend 2.4.9 practices too, using either hidden text or, title,
or aria-describedby, but I still think that removing the heading from
sufficient context is not fair on authors, especially since it was
part of the WCAG specification and parts of it still linger in the
text. I thought the idea behind WCAG was that updates to the standard
were not supposed not cause change of conformance, though I admit I am
not sure.

But in the conformance section I have never seen that authors must
specify conformance with WCAG 2.0 as-of a specific date (which, if the
requirements of WCAG change, is essential).




On 11/9/17, Bourne, Sarah (MASSIT) < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Well, this doesn't seem quite right to me.
>> " The idea is that the user should be able to hear the context without
>> having to move focus from the link"
> That's a fine idea, but it's not stated as a requirement for 2.4.4. Under
> Intent of this Success Criterion it says, " In some situations, authors may
> want to provide part of the description of the link in logically related
> text that provides the context for the link. In this case the user should be
> able to identify the purpose of the link without moving focus from the
> link." "Should" is not the same as "must". And the Failure Criterion "F63:
> Failure of Success Criterion 2.4.4 due to providing link context only in
> content that is not related to the link" says that it fails " If the context
> for the link is not provided in one of the following ways:" and then gives
> "in the preceding heading" in the list.
>
> That being said, I usually encourage meeting 2.4.9 Link Purpose (Link Only)
> whenever possible, by using visually-hidden text. I'm tempted to move to
> using ARIA-LABELLEDBY in situations like this, but there are still some
> glitches in browser/AT support [1]. And sometimes the link text can get
> overly long.
>
> [1]
> https://www.powermapper.com/tests/screen-readers/labelling/a-aria-labelledby/
>
>
> Sarah E. Bourne
> Director of IT Accessibility
> Executive Office of Technology Services and Security (EOTSS)
> 1 Ashburton Place, 8th Floor, Boston, MA 02108
> Office: (617) 626-4502
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = | www.mass.gov/eotss
>
> > > > >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.