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From: Alan Zaitchik
Date: Fri, Nov 17 2017 12:14PM
Subject: PDF structures
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Is it advisable to organize tags so that they reflect structures like a "list inside a paragraph"? I'm reordering tags anyway so it's not a heavy lift, but is it actually useful in any way, e.g. to screen reader users? Until now I would just order the tags serially, a P then an L then a P, for example--but often a list is semantically inside the paragraph, not just after one piece of text and before another: something like an "outer"-P consisting of P then L then P.
Thanks,
A

From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Fri, Nov 17 2017 12:28PM
Subject: Re: PDF structures
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No, don't nest list <L> and its sub-tags inside a paragraph <P> tag.
Provides no benefit to the user, and might also throw off A T.

This is not XML, so don't over-engineer the tags in a PDF.

Sequential tags work fine.

--Bevi Chagnon

PS: Don't have access to my copy of the full PDF / PDF/UA specifications, but nesting of <L> might not be allowed. But that's from memory at this point.

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Bevi Chagnon | www.PubCom.com
Technologists for Accessible Design and Publishing
print – digital – web – documents – pdfs – epubs
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-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Alan Zaitchik
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2017 12:14 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] PDF structures

Is it advisable to organize tags so that they reflect structures like a "list inside a paragraph"? I'm reordering tags anyway so it's not a heavy lift, but is it actually useful in any way, e.g. to screen reader users? Until now I would just order the tags serially, a P then an L then a P, for example--but often a list is semantically inside the paragraph, not just after one piece of text and before another: something like an "outer"-P consisting of P then L then P.
Thanks,
A

From: Metzessible
Date: Sat, Nov 18 2017 10:00PM
Subject: Re: PDF structures
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To expand on what Bevi said (because I do have my copy handy *smile*):

According to 32000-1, lists are considered Block Level Structure Elements
(BLSE) in PDF, so nesting one inside the other would be a bit weird. A
Paragraph is considered a "low-level division of text". If you nest a list
inside a Paragraph, it will probably be flagged as incorrect usage in
something like CommonLook Validator (if you're doing QA with that tool),
but not sure how PAC 2.0 would look at it. For nested lists, you should
place them inside the <LBody> tag, which can also contain the <P> tag, or
other BLSE (per Table 336 in 32000-1).

Hope this helps,
Jon

On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Chagnon | PubCom < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> No, don't nest list <L> and its sub-tags inside a paragraph <P> tag.
> Provides no benefit to the user, and might also throw off A T.
>
> This is not XML, so don't over-engineer the tags in a PDF.
>
> Sequential tags work fine.
>
> --Bevi Chagnon
>
> PS: Don't have access to my copy of the full PDF / PDF/UA specifications,
> but nesting of <L> might not be allowed. But that's from memory at this
> point.
>
> — — —
> Bevi Chagnon | www.PubCom.com
> Technologists for Accessible Design and Publishing
> print – digital – web – documents – pdfs – epubs
> consulting – training – development – design – sec. 508 services
> — — —
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Alan Zaitchik
> Sent: Friday, November 17, 2017 12:14 PM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: [WebAIM] PDF structures
>
> Is it advisable to organize tags so that they reflect structures like a
> "list inside a paragraph"? I'm reordering tags anyway so it's not a heavy
> lift, but is it actually useful in any way, e.g. to screen reader users?
> Until now I would just order the tags serially, a P then an L then a P, for
> example--but often a list is semantically inside the paragraph, not just
> after one piece of text and before another: something like an "outer"-P
> consisting of P then L then P.
> Thanks,
> A
> > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >
> > > > >