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Thread: JAWS cannot handle complex table

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Number of posts in this thread: 11 (In chronological order)

From: Alan Zaitchik
Date: Wed, Mar 28 2018 5:58AM
Subject: JAWS cannot handle complex table
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I have some "irregular" tables in a PDF, of a rather simple nature, which JAWS is not reading correctly.
Each table has 4 columns and 5 rows. (In this email let's call each cell r1c1, r1c2,..., r2c1, r2c2,..., etc. for row 1-col 1, row 1-col 2, ..., row 2-col 1, row 2-col 2,..., and so on.)
The first row is the header row, and each TH has scope=column. The next 4 rows contain just data cells, but (here's the catch) there is only one data cell in column 3 and one data cell in column 4 because each of these TD cells spans all the remaining 4 rows of data cells in columns 1 and 2. That is, r2c3 has a row span of 4, and r2c4 has a row span of 4.
No matter what I do, JAWS (v16) does not read the data cell r2c3 nor the cell r2c4 when it reads rows 3,4, and 5 of the table. It does, however, correctly read the cells r2c3 and r2c4 when it reads row 2.
I have tried fixing this in Acrobat-- both using scope as well as indexed headers-- to no avail. I have also tried setting this up in CommonLook PDF Global Access using their table tools, again trying both using scope as well as indexed headers, also to no avail. NVDA was able to handle the table without a problem, but I need it to work well in JAWS.
Any suggestions?
Alan

From: Guerra Access Technology LLC | Stephen Guerra
Date: Wed, Mar 28 2018 6:51AM
Subject: Re: JAWS cannot handle complex table
← Previous message | Next message →

Have you experimented with JAWS2018?


Respectfully,
Stephen Guerra, President
Guerra Access Technology Training LLC
Blind, Low-Vision and Deaf-Blind Authorized State of Minnesota Vendor for Technology Training

Contact by phone, Guerra Access Technology Training LLC, 507.722.2864
Email Guerra Access Technology Training LLC
Visit Guerra Access Technology Training on the Web

Disclaimer:
The Information contained within this correspondence is solely the property of Guerra Access Technology Training LLC (GATT).
This message may contain confidential information and should not be distributed without the written consent of Guerra access Technology Training LLC.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Alan Zaitchik
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2018 6:58 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] JAWS cannot handle complex table

I have some "irregular" tables in a PDF, of a rather simple nature, which JAWS is not reading correctly.
Each table has 4 columns and 5 rows. (In this email let's call each cell r1c1, r1c2,..., r2c1, r2c2,..., etc. for row 1-col 1, row 1-col 2, ..., row 2-col 1, row 2-col 2,..., and so on.) The first row is the header row, and each TH has scope=column. The next 4 rows contain just data cells, but (here's the catch) there is only one data cell in column 3 and one data cell in column 4 because each of these TD cells spans all the remaining 4 rows of data cells in columns 1 and 2. That is, r2c3 has a row span of 4, and r2c4 has a row span of 4.
No matter what I do, JAWS (v16) does not read the data cell r2c3 nor the cell r2c4 when it reads rows 3,4, and 5 of the table. It does, however, correctly read the cells r2c3 and r2c4 when it reads row 2.
I have tried fixing this in Acrobat-- both using scope as well as indexed headers-- to no avail. I have also tried setting this up in CommonLook PDF Global Access using their table tools, again trying both using scope as well as indexed headers, also to no avail. NVDA was able to handle the table without a problem, but I need it to work well in JAWS.
Any suggestions?
Alan

From: Duff Johnson
Date: Wed, Mar 28 2018 7:04AM
Subject: Re: JAWS cannot handle complex table
← Previous message | Next message →

Whatever else you do… if the table is tagged correctly and works as expected in NVDA... file a bug with Freedom Scientific!

I understand that everyone's got a job to do, but hacking files to suit this-or-that version of x or y software is the sure route to keeping accessibility as the exception rather than the rule.

Duff.

> On Mar 28, 2018, at 07:58, Alan Zaitchik < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> I have some "irregular" tables in a PDF, of a rather simple nature, which JAWS is not reading correctly.
> Each table has 4 columns and 5 rows. (In this email let's call each cell r1c1, r1c2,..., r2c1, r2c2,..., etc. for row 1-col 1, row 1-col 2, ..., row 2-col 1, row 2-col 2,..., and so on.)
> The first row is the header row, and each TH has scope=column. The next 4 rows contain just data cells, but (here's the catch) there is only one data cell in column 3 and one data cell in column 4 because each of these TD cells spans all the remaining 4 rows of data cells in columns 1 and 2. That is, r2c3 has a row span of 4, and r2c4 has a row span of 4.
> No matter what I do, JAWS (v16) does not read the data cell r2c3 nor the cell r2c4 when it reads rows 3,4, and 5 of the table. It does, however, correctly read the cells r2c3 and r2c4 when it reads row 2.
> I have tried fixing this in Acrobat-- both using scope as well as indexed headers-- to no avail. I have also tried setting this up in CommonLook PDF Global Access using their table tools, again trying both using scope as well as indexed headers, also to no avail. NVDA was able to handle the table without a problem, but I need it to work well in JAWS.
> Any suggestions?
> Alan
>
>
> > > >

From: glen walker
Date: Wed, Mar 28 2018 10:29AM
Subject: Re: JAWS cannot handle complex table
← Previous message | Next message →

I'm not sure there's really a problem. I duplicated your layout with an
html table, assuming I understand the layout correctly. I'm attaching an
html file, although I'm not sure if attachments come through on the
archives. The table should be as you described, but I also have a button
before and after the table because I like to tab into my test page to a
focusable object first, and then use T to navigate to the table, strictly
for testing purposes.

NVDA allows you to navigate to all cells in the table but JAWS (2018) does
not. There is an argument that JAWS is doing the right thing. Row 2
contains data for all four columns, with the last two cells spanning
multiple rows. Row 3 only contains two data cells, in the first two
columns. The last two data cells aren't really there because the cells
belong to row 2. So you hit the right edge of the table after the second
data cell.

I'm not saying I agree with how JAWS is interpreting it, but I can
understand why they would do it.

NVDA isn't completely great either. While NVDA will let me navigate across
row 3 and access the last two data cells as if they were on row 3, if I try
to navigate back to the left, I end up in row 2. So NVDA also interprets
the spanned rows as belonging to row 2.

I also tried the table with VoiceOver and it behaves like JAWS. As I swipe
right through the table, I can navigate across all of row 2. The VO focus
then moves to row 3 and only lets me access the first two cells and then
the focus moves to row 4. So like JAWS, VoiceOver thinks the spanned cells
belong to row 2 and that there are only two data cells in row 3. The nice
thing about VO is that it told me the last two cells in row 2 spanned four
rows. I don't know if JAWS or NVDA tell you that. I didn't try tracking
that down.

The end result is that it sounds like your PDF table is marked up correctly
because you're hearing the same behavior as an html table.

Glen

From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Wed, Mar 28 2018 11:39AM
Subject: Re: JAWS cannot handle complex table
← Previous message | Next message →

> I'm not saying I agree with how JAWS is interpreting it, but I can understand why they would do it.

Glenn, I was thinking the same exact thing. JAWS treats the span rows as only applicable to the first row they appear in-- this is how JAWS works. Maybe it should work differently? Maybe not? But it's likely not a problem with the table and depending on who you talk to it may or may not be a bug.

Jonathan

Jonathan Avila
Chief Accessibility Officer
Level Access
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
703.637.8957 office

Visit us online:
Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog

Looking to boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free webinars!


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of glen walker
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2018 12:30 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] JAWS cannot handle complex table

I'm not sure there's really a problem. I duplicated your layout with an html table, assuming I understand the layout correctly. I'm attaching an html file, although I'm not sure if attachments come through on the archives. The table should be as you described, but I also have a button before and after the table because I like to tab into my test page to a focusable object first, and then use T to navigate to the table, strictly for testing purposes.

NVDA allows you to navigate to all cells in the table but JAWS (2018) does not. There is an argument that JAWS is doing the right thing. Row 2 contains data for all four columns, with the last two cells spanning multiple rows. Row 3 only contains two data cells, in the first two columns. The last two data cells aren't really there because the cells belong to row 2. So you hit the right edge of the table after the second data cell.

I'm not saying I agree with how JAWS is interpreting it, but I can understand why they would do it.

NVDA isn't completely great either. While NVDA will let me navigate across row 3 and access the last two data cells as if they were on row 3, if I try to navigate back to the left, I end up in row 2. So NVDA also interprets the spanned rows as belonging to row 2.

I also tried the table with VoiceOver and it behaves like JAWS. As I swipe right through the table, I can navigate across all of row 2. The VO focus then moves to row 3 and only lets me access the first two cells and then the focus moves to row 4. So like JAWS, VoiceOver thinks the spanned cells belong to row 2 and that there are only two data cells in row 3. The nice thing about VO is that it told me the last two cells in row 2 spanned four rows. I don't know if JAWS or NVDA tell you that. I didn't try tracking that down.

The end result is that it sounds like your PDF table is marked up correctly because you're hearing the same behavior as an html table.

Glen

From: mhysnm1964@gmail.com
Date: Wed, Mar 28 2018 10:40PM
Subject: Re: JAWS cannot handle complex table
← Previous message | Next message →

On this topic, does any screen reader handle nested tables correctly?

Sean
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Jonathan Avila
Sent: Thursday, 29 March 2018 4:39 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] JAWS cannot handle complex table

> I'm not saying I agree with how JAWS is interpreting it, but I can understand why they would do it.

Glenn, I was thinking the same exact thing. JAWS treats the span rows as only applicable to the first row they appear in-- this is how JAWS works. Maybe it should work differently? Maybe not? But it's likely not a problem with the table and depending on who you talk to it may or may not be a bug.

Jonathan

Jonathan Avila
Chief Accessibility Officer
Level Access
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
703.637.8957 office

Visit us online:
Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog

Looking to boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free webinars!


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of glen walker
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2018 12:30 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] JAWS cannot handle complex table

I'm not sure there's really a problem. I duplicated your layout with an html table, assuming I understand the layout correctly. I'm attaching an html file, although I'm not sure if attachments come through on the archives. The table should be as you described, but I also have a button before and after the table because I like to tab into my test page to a focusable object first, and then use T to navigate to the table, strictly for testing purposes.

NVDA allows you to navigate to all cells in the table but JAWS (2018) does not. There is an argument that JAWS is doing the right thing. Row 2 contains data for all four columns, with the last two cells spanning multiple rows. Row 3 only contains two data cells, in the first two columns. The last two data cells aren't really there because the cells belong to row 2. So you hit the right edge of the table after the second data cell.

I'm not saying I agree with how JAWS is interpreting it, but I can understand why they would do it.

NVDA isn't completely great either. While NVDA will let me navigate across row 3 and access the last two data cells as if they were on row 3, if I try to navigate back to the left, I end up in row 2. So NVDA also interprets the spanned rows as belonging to row 2.

I also tried the table with VoiceOver and it behaves like JAWS. As I swipe right through the table, I can navigate across all of row 2. The VO focus then moves to row 3 and only lets me access the first two cells and then the focus moves to row 4. So like JAWS, VoiceOver thinks the spanned cells belong to row 2 and that there are only two data cells in row 3. The nice thing about VO is that it told me the last two cells in row 2 spanned four rows. I don't know if JAWS or NVDA tell you that. I didn't try tracking that down.

The end result is that it sounds like your PDF table is marked up correctly because you're hearing the same behavior as an html table.

Glen

From: glen walker
Date: Thu, Mar 29 2018 11:17AM
Subject: Re: JAWS cannot handle complex table
← Previous message | Next message →

Kind of. Assuming the tables are defined correctly, then nested tables
sort of work. JAWS will tell you a table is nested but NVDA and VoiceOver
will not.

And you can kind of get into a "tab trap" when navigating within the table.
If you use ctrl+alt+arrowkeys to navigate through the outer table and you
get to a cell that is a nested table, the ctrl+alt+arrowkeys start
navigating through the cells in the inner table but once you reach a table
boundary in the inner table, the key won't move you out of the table, just
like it works for a normal (non-nested) table. If you stick with
ctrl+alt+arrowkeys, you are stuck in the inner table. You have to use a
simple up or down arrow to get out of the inner table when you're on the
boundary.

So it's doable, but it might be cognitive challenging.

On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 10:40 PM, < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> On this topic, does any screen reader handle nested tables correctly?
>
> Sean
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> Jonathan Avila
> Sent: Thursday, 29 March 2018 4:39 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] JAWS cannot handle complex table
>
> > I'm not saying I agree with how JAWS is interpreting it, but I can
> understand why they would do it.
>
> Glenn, I was thinking the same exact thing. JAWS treats the span rows as
> only applicable to the first row they appear in-- this is how JAWS works.
> Maybe it should work differently? Maybe not? But it's likely not a
> problem with the table and depending on who you talk to it may or may not
> be a bug.
>
> Jonathan
>
> Jonathan Avila
> Chief Accessibility Officer
> Level Access
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> 703.637.8957 office
>
> Visit us online:
> Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog
>
> Looking to boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free webinars!
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of glen walker
> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2018 12:30 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] JAWS cannot handle complex table
>
> I'm not sure there's really a problem. I duplicated your layout with an
> html table, assuming I understand the layout correctly. I'm attaching an
> html file, although I'm not sure if attachments come through on the
> archives. The table should be as you described, but I also have a button
> before and after the table because I like to tab into my test page to a
> focusable object first, and then use T to navigate to the table, strictly
> for testing purposes.
>
> NVDA allows you to navigate to all cells in the table but JAWS (2018) does
> not. There is an argument that JAWS is doing the right thing. Row 2
> contains data for all four columns, with the last two cells spanning
> multiple rows. Row 3 only contains two data cells, in the first two
> columns. The last two data cells aren't really there because the cells
> belong to row 2. So you hit the right edge of the table after the second
> data cell.
>
> I'm not saying I agree with how JAWS is interpreting it, but I can
> understand why they would do it.
>
> NVDA isn't completely great either. While NVDA will let me navigate
> across row 3 and access the last two data cells as if they were on row 3,
> if I try to navigate back to the left, I end up in row 2. So NVDA also
> interprets the spanned rows as belonging to row 2.
>
> I also tried the table with VoiceOver and it behaves like JAWS. As I
> swipe right through the table, I can navigate across all of row 2. The VO
> focus then moves to row 3 and only lets me access the first two cells and
> then the focus moves to row 4. So like JAWS, VoiceOver thinks the spanned
> cells belong to row 2 and that there are only two data cells in row 3. The
> nice thing about VO is that it told me the last two cells in row 2 spanned
> four rows. I don't know if JAWS or NVDA tell you that. I didn't try
> tracking that down.
>
> The end result is that it sounds like your PDF table is marked up
> correctly because you're hearing the same behavior as an html table.
>
> Glen
> > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >
> > > > >

From: Don Mauck
Date: Thu, Mar 29 2018 11:51AM
Subject: Re: JAWS cannot handle complex table
← Previous message | Next message →

I've seen JAWS handle some nested tables, although there was a time where JAWS17 certainly didn't. I have a simple nested table example that both NVDA and JAWS do ok with in the current versions.
I seem to remember that at one time there were articles that suggested that nested tables be avoided, however, I'm not finding those articles, so, might have dreamt it.

-----Original Message-----
From: glen walker [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2018 11:17 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] JAWS cannot handle complex table

Kind of. Assuming the tables are defined correctly, then nested tables sort of work. JAWS will tell you a table is nested but NVDA and VoiceOver will not.

And you can kind of get into a "tab trap" when navigating within the table.
If you use ctrl+alt+arrowkeys to navigate through the outer table and you get to a cell that is a nested table, the ctrl+alt+arrowkeys start navigating through the cells in the inner table but once you reach a table boundary in the inner table, the key won't move you out of the table, just like it works for a normal (non-nested) table. If you stick with
ctrl+alt+arrowkeys, you are stuck in the inner table. You have to use a
simple up or down arrow to get out of the inner table when you're on the boundary.

So it's doable, but it might be cognitive challenging.

On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 10:40 PM, < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> On this topic, does any screen reader handle nested tables correctly?
>
> Sean
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> Jonathan Avila
> Sent: Thursday, 29 March 2018 4:39 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] JAWS cannot handle complex table
>
> > I'm not saying I agree with how JAWS is interpreting it, but I can
> understand why they would do it.
>
> Glenn, I was thinking the same exact thing. JAWS treats the span rows
> as only applicable to the first row they appear in-- this is how JAWS works.
> Maybe it should work differently? Maybe not? But it's likely not a
> problem with the table and depending on who you talk to it may or may
> not be a bug.
>
> Jonathan
>
> Jonathan Avila
> Chief Accessibility Officer
> Level Access
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> 703.637.8957 office
>
> Visit us online:
> Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog
>
> Looking to boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free webinars!
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of glen walker
> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2018 12:30 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] JAWS cannot handle complex table
>
> I'm not sure there's really a problem. I duplicated your layout with
> an html table, assuming I understand the layout correctly. I'm
> attaching an html file, although I'm not sure if attachments come
> through on the archives. The table should be as you described, but I
> also have a button before and after the table because I like to tab
> into my test page to a focusable object first, and then use T to
> navigate to the table, strictly for testing purposes.
>
> NVDA allows you to navigate to all cells in the table but JAWS (2018)
> does not. There is an argument that JAWS is doing the right thing.
> Row 2 contains data for all four columns, with the last two cells
> spanning multiple rows. Row 3 only contains two data cells, in the
> first two columns. The last two data cells aren't really there
> because the cells belong to row 2. So you hit the right edge of the
> table after the second data cell.
>
> I'm not saying I agree with how JAWS is interpreting it, but I can
> understand why they would do it.
>
> NVDA isn't completely great either. While NVDA will let me navigate
> across row 3 and access the last two data cells as if they were on row
> 3, if I try to navigate back to the left, I end up in row 2. So NVDA
> also interprets the spanned rows as belonging to row 2.
>
> I also tried the table with VoiceOver and it behaves like JAWS. As I
> swipe right through the table, I can navigate across all of row 2.
> The VO focus then moves to row 3 and only lets me access the first two
> cells and then the focus moves to row 4. So like JAWS, VoiceOver
> thinks the spanned cells belong to row 2 and that there are only two
> data cells in row 3. The nice thing about VO is that it told me the
> last two cells in row 2 spanned four rows. I don't know if JAWS or
> NVDA tell you that. I didn't try tracking that down.
>
> The end result is that it sounds like your PDF table is marked up
> correctly because you're hearing the same behavior as an html table.
>
> Glen
> > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.webaim.org_&d
> =DwIGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=EQ0xAgqxGediPF
> S2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=op2J6RGdrwkkIjpSy0Z6GvbNNoyo8mujb8BjwE
> pwCAs&s=hP0OktiJTtLm0tGzXHfEZahvxx73Da9e2zwsVuZGBaY&e= List archives
> at
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__webaim.org_discuss
> ion_archives&d=DwIGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r> EQ0xAgqxGediPFS2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=op2J6RGdrwkkIjpSy0Z6GvbN
> Noyo8mujb8BjwEpwCAs&s=fOFq9Z-W372ifvbylA-cxV12SFrIsztJW3QWtuHK6kE&e> >
> > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.webaim.org_&d
> =DwIGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=EQ0xAgqxGediPF
> S2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=op2J6RGdrwkkIjpSy0Z6GvbNNoyo8mujb8BjwE
> pwCAs&s=hP0OktiJTtLm0tGzXHfEZahvxx73Da9e2zwsVuZGBaY&e> List archives at
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__webaim.org_discuss
> ion_archives&d=DwIGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r> EQ0xAgqxGediPFS2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=op2J6RGdrwkkIjpSy0Z6GvbN
> Noyo8mujb8BjwEpwCAs&s=fOFq9Z-W372ifvbylA-cxV12SFrIsztJW3QWtuHK6kE&e> >

From: Walker, Michael E
Date: Thu, Mar 29 2018 11:53AM
Subject: Re: JAWS cannot handle complex table
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Don, have you looked at Freedom Scientific's Surfs Up guides for nested tables? I do not recall if they present examples on nested tables, but do remember that there is a section on dealing with difficult web pages.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Don Mauck
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2018 12:52 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] JAWS cannot handle complex table

I've seen JAWS handle some nested tables, although there was a time where JAWS17 certainly didn't. I have a simple nested table example that both NVDA and JAWS do ok with in the current versions.
I seem to remember that at one time there were articles that suggested that nested tables be avoided, however, I'm not finding those articles, so, might have dreamt it.

-----Original Message-----
From: glen walker [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2018 11:17 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] JAWS cannot handle complex table

Kind of. Assuming the tables are defined correctly, then nested tables sort of work. JAWS will tell you a table is nested but NVDA and VoiceOver will not.

And you can kind of get into a "tab trap" when navigating within the table.
If you use ctrl+alt+arrowkeys to navigate through the outer table and you get to a cell that is a nested table, the ctrl+alt+arrowkeys start navigating through the cells in the inner table but once you reach a table boundary in the inner table, the key won't move you out of the table, just like it works for a normal (non-nested) table. If you stick with
ctrl+alt+arrowkeys, you are stuck in the inner table. You have to use a
simple up or down arrow to get out of the inner table when you're on the boundary.

So it's doable, but it might be cognitive challenging.

On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 10:40 PM, < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> On this topic, does any screen reader handle nested tables correctly?
>
> Sean
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> Jonathan Avila
> Sent: Thursday, 29 March 2018 4:39 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] JAWS cannot handle complex table
>
> > I'm not saying I agree with how JAWS is interpreting it, but I can
> understand why they would do it.
>
> Glenn, I was thinking the same exact thing. JAWS treats the span rows
> as only applicable to the first row they appear in-- this is how JAWS works.
> Maybe it should work differently? Maybe not? But it's likely not a
> problem with the table and depending on who you talk to it may or may
> not be a bug.
>
> Jonathan
>
> Jonathan Avila
> Chief Accessibility Officer
> Level Access
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> 703.637.8957 office
>
> Visit us online:
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>
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of glen walker
> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2018 12:30 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] JAWS cannot handle complex table
>
> I'm not sure there's really a problem. I duplicated your layout with
> an html table, assuming I understand the layout correctly. I'm
> attaching an html file, although I'm not sure if attachments come
> through on the archives. The table should be as you described, but I
> also have a button before and after the table because I like to tab
> into my test page to a focusable object first, and then use T to
> navigate to the table, strictly for testing purposes.
>
> NVDA allows you to navigate to all cells in the table but JAWS (2018)
> does not. There is an argument that JAWS is doing the right thing.
> Row 2 contains data for all four columns, with the last two cells
> spanning multiple rows. Row 3 only contains two data cells, in the
> first two columns. The last two data cells aren't really there
> because the cells belong to row 2. So you hit the right edge of the
> table after the second data cell.
>
> I'm not saying I agree with how JAWS is interpreting it, but I can
> understand why they would do it.
>
> NVDA isn't completely great either. While NVDA will let me navigate
> across row 3 and access the last two data cells as if they were on row
> 3, if I try to navigate back to the left, I end up in row 2. So NVDA
> also interprets the spanned rows as belonging to row 2.
>
> I also tried the table with VoiceOver and it behaves like JAWS. As I
> swipe right through the table, I can navigate across all of row 2.
> The VO focus then moves to row 3 and only lets me access the first two
> cells and then the focus moves to row 4. So like JAWS, VoiceOver
> thinks the spanned cells belong to row 2 and that there are only two
> data cells in row 3. The nice thing about VO is that it told me the
> last two cells in row 2 spanned four rows. I don't know if JAWS or
> NVDA tell you that. I didn't try tracking that down.
>
> The end result is that it sounds like your PDF table is marked up
> correctly because you're hearing the same behavior as an html table.
>
> Glen
> > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.webaim.org_&d
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> pwCAs&s=hP0OktiJTtLm0tGzXHfEZahvxx73Da9e2zwsVuZGBaY&e= List archives
> at
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__webaim.org_discuss
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> =DwIGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=EQ0xAgqxGediPF
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From: Don Mauck
Date: Thu, Mar 29 2018 3:15PM
Subject: Re: JAWS cannot handle complex table
← Previous message | Next message →

There is, however, they really don't address nested tables.

-----Original Message-----
From: Walker, Michael E [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2018 11:54 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] JAWS cannot handle complex table

Hi Don, have you looked at Freedom Scientific's Surfs Up guides for nested tables? I do not recall if they present examples on nested tables, but do remember that there is a section on dealing with difficult web pages.-----Original Message-----From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Don MauckSent: Thursday, March 29, 2018 12:52 PMTo: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >Subject: Re: [WebAIM] JAWS cannot handle complex tableI've seen JAWS handle some nested tables, although there was a time where JAWS17 certainly didn't. I have a simple nested table example that both NVDA and JAWS do ok with in the current versions. I seem to remember that at one time there were articles that suggested that nested tables be avoided, however, I'm not finding those articles, so, might have dreamt it. -----Original Message-----From: glen walker [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2018 11:17 AMTo: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >Subject: Re: [WebAIM] JAWS cannot handle complex tableKind of. Assuming the tables are defined correctly, then nested tables sort of work. JAWS will tell you a table is nested but NVDA and VoiceOver will not.And you can kind of get into a "tab trap" when navigating within the table.If you use ctrl+alt+arrowkeys to navigate through the outer table and you get to a cell that is a nested table, the ctrl+alt+arrowkeys start navigating through the cells in the inner table but once you reach a table boundary in the inner table, the key won't move you out of the table, just like it works for a normal (non-nested) table. If you stick withctrl+alt+arrowkeys, you are stuck in the inner table. You have to use asimple up or down arrow to get out of the inner table when you're on the boundary.So it's doable, but it might be cognitive challenging.On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 10:40 PM, < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:> On this topic, does any screen reader handle nested tables correctly?>> Sean> -----Original Message-----> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of > Jonathan Avila> Sent: Thursday, 29 March 2018 4:39 AM> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] JAWS cannot handle complex table>> > I'm not saying I agree with how JAWS is interpreting it, but I can> understand why they would do it.>> Glenn, I was thinking the same exact thing. JAWS treats the span rows > as only applicable to the first row they appear in-- this is how JAWS works.> Maybe it should work differently? Maybe not? But it's likely not a > problem with the table and depending on who you talk to it may or may > not be a bug.>> Jonathan>> Jonathan Avila> Chief Accessibility Officer> Level Access> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > 703.637.8957 office>> Visit us online:> Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog>> Looking to boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free webinars!>>> -----Original Message-----> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On > Behalf Of glen walker> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2018 12:30 PM> To: WebAIM Discussion List> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] JAWS cannot handle complex table>> I'm not sure there's really a problem. I duplicated your layout with > an html table, assuming I understand the layout correctly. I'm > attaching an html file, although I'm not sure if attachments come > through on the archives. The table should be as you described, but I > also have a button before and after the table because I like to tab > into my test page to a focusable object first, and then use T to > navigate to the table, strictly for testing purposes.>> NVDA allows you to navigate to all cells in the table but JAWS (2018) > does not. There is an argument that JAWS is doing the right thing.> Row 2 contains data for all four columns, with the last two cells > spanning multiple rows. Row 3 only contains two data cells, in the > first two columns. The last two data cells aren't really there > because the cells belong to row 2. So you hit the right edge of the > table after the second data cell.>> I'm not saying I agree with how JAWS is interpreting it, but I can > understand why they would do it.>> NVDA isn't completely great either. While NVDA will let me navigate > across row 3 and access the last two data cells as if they were on row > 3, if I try to navigate back to the left, I end up in row 2. So NVDA > also interprets the spanned rows as belonging to row 2.>> I also tried the table with VoiceOver and it behaves like JAWS. As I > swipe right through the table, I can navigate across all of row 2.> The VO focus then moves to row 3 and only lets me access the first two > cells and then the focus moves to row 4. So like JAWS, VoiceOver > thinks the spanned cells belong to row 2 and that there are only two > data cells in row 3. The nice thing about VO is that it told me the > last two cells in row 2 spanned four rows. I don't know if JAWS or > NVDA tell you that. I didn't try tracking that down.>> The end result is that it sounds like your PDF table is marked up > correctly because you're hearing the same behavior as an html table.>> Glen>

From: Alan Zaitchik
Date: Fri, Mar 30 2018 12:48PM
Subject: Re: JAWS cannot handle complex table
← Previous message | No next message

Thank you, all, for your insights.
I guess I am surprised that JAWS does not repeat the data cell when reading the subsequent "spanned" rows after the first, in the original case I described. Seems like this could have been addressed ages ago — and really shouldn't depend on what JAWS does with nested tables in the strict sense.
Anyway, if this is its behavior then we will tell the client (if they even notice) that JAWS users will probably expect it as a possibility, if JAWS announces that there are, say, four columns, but the user hears "end of row" after the second column. Of course it might also be that those cells are empty...
Alan