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Thread: Meta Infos necessary in links?

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Number of posts in this thread: 6 (In chronological order)

From: Wolfgang Berndorfer
Date: Tue, Feb 19 2019 8:49AM
Subject: Meta Infos necessary in links?
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SC 2.4.4 and 2.4.9 want link text to be meaningful in context or even alone.
Now, does link text need meta infos to be meaningful and pass the SCs like:

a) Linked document on external website ("Understanding SC 2.4.4 . [W3C]")

b) Linked documents in foreign languages ("[German] Gesetze barrierefrei")

c) Format of the linked document (PDF / Excel / .)

d) Link to an element on the same side. (screen readers announce that
technically, but no visual indicator)



H30 says no in example 6:

https://www.w3.org/TR/2016/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20161007/H30#H30-ex6



But what is common or your opinion to this question?

Thanks,

Wolfgang

From: glen walker
Date: Tue, Feb 19 2019 9:47AM
Subject: Re: Meta Infos necessary in links?
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From a strict checklist of AA conformance, you don't have to indicate the
extra information.

For AAA conformance, 3.2.5 Change on Request might apply. (You mentioned
2.4.9 Link Purpose (Link Only), which is AAA, so thought you might be
interested in other AA requirements). However, your list of meta info
examples didn't include links that open in a new window. That would fall
under 3.2.5 but your other examples wouldn't.

From a user experience perspective, your first three examples would be
great to always indicate, just make sure that if you have some indicator,
that you do it for all links on all pages, otherwise 3.2.4 Consistent
Identification would apply.

I always encourage 2.4.9 Link Purpose (Link Only) as well, even though it's
AAA

Your last example, I'm not sure if you meant in-page links or links to
other pages on the same site, but I wouldn't put an indicator on either.

Glen

From: Wolfgang Berndorfer
Date: Tue, Feb 19 2019 1:32PM
Subject: Re: Meta Infos necessary in links?
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So, meta info for a link is just a matter of usability?
The philosophy of WCAG is somehow: If everybody is made confused, it’s no
discrimination, when AT-users get confused too.

Glen,
You’d agree that extra information would be helpful?
Fear that 3.2.5 won’t apply. A click on a link is a strong request for
change already.
I thought about including “links that open in a new window” in my list of
meta infos. But target=_blank seems to be technically reflected in JAWS
already. And visually a change of websites might be comprehended intuitively
anyway.
Well, I meant “in-page links”. Didn’t know the exact expression in English.
JAWS technically announces this link type already. But wouldn’t it be fine
for non-AT users to get the information that they got or will get some
resources on the *same* side?
Wolfgang


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] Im Auftrag
von glen walker
Gesendet: Dienstag, 19. Februar 2019 17:47
An: WebAIM Discussion List
Betreff: Re: [WebAIM] Meta Infos necessary in links?

From a strict checklist of AA conformance, you don't have to indicate the
extra information.

For AAA conformance, 3.2.5 Change on Request might apply. (You mentioned
2.4.9 Link Purpose (Link Only), which is AAA, so thought you might be
interested in other AA requirements). However, your list of meta info
examples didn't include links that open in a new window. That would fall
under 3.2.5 but your other examples wouldn't.

From a user experience perspective, your first three examples would be
great to always indicate, just make sure that if you have some indicator,
that you do it for all links on all pages, otherwise 3.2.4 Consistent
Identification would apply.

I always encourage 2.4.9 Link Purpose (Link Only) as well, even though it's
AAA

Your last example, I'm not sure if you meant in-page links or links to
other pages on the same site, but I wouldn't put an indicator on either.

Glen

From: glen walker
Date: Tue, Feb 19 2019 1:53PM
Subject: Re: Meta Infos necessary in links?
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Yes, meta info is more about usability and user experience.

And you are correct that if something is inaccessible to everyone, then
it's not an accessibility issue, ironically. If no one can get to the
information, then it's a bad experience for everyone. That doesn't mean it
shouldn't be fixed, but it would be under the umbrella of usability rather
than specifically about accessibility.

For links that open a new window or new tab, that would fall under 3.2.5
(AAA). While a click on a link is a strong request for change, if that
change also includes opening a new tab, that's an unexpected change. When
a new tab opens, my "back" button won't work. If I'm not aware that a new
tab opened, then it could be very confusing why I can't go back.

Whether JAWS or another screen reader announces that a link goes to another
location on the same page is somewhat irrelevant. Sometimes screen reader
users get more information than sighted users. For example, when
navigating to a combobox (<select> element), jaws will tell you how many
items are in the dropdown list. Sighted users don't have that benefit.
They have to open the list and count the items. But that doesn't mean we
should display the number of items in the list in the combobox's label just
because a screen reader provides that information. I feel the same about
links. If a screen reader tells you it's an in-page link, that's fine, but
it doesn't mean there needs to be a visual indicator that you have an
in-page link.

Now, I should have caveated all my comments that they are just my opinion.
There are a lot of smart people on this list that might have a
contradictory opinion. But your original question did ask for "opinions".

Glen

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Tue, Feb 19 2019 2:17PM
Subject: Re: Meta Infos necessary in links?
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If you use an icon to visually indicate any of the things you
mentioned,i.e. that a link opens in a new tab, it becomes a WCAG 1.1.1
(alt text) issue to indicate the same to users who can't see the
icons.
Ditto if you have a file icon, video icon or same page link icon.
In the absence of visual cues you don't need to indicate any of these
things to a screen reader user for AA conformance, whether you choose
to do so is a UX (or ratherAX, accessible experience) decision.

Screen readers can interpret target="_blank" and links whose targets
are an id on the same page and provide that info to the user, but if
the tab is opened or focus is moved with JavaScript a screen reader
could not provide this info.

There was a massive discussion a year or two ago about whether opening
in anew window constitutes a change of context, the majority opinion
was that it was not.

Having the privilege to specify my own standards for accessibility in
some situations I have made it a standard requirement to add screen
reader indication to links tat open in a new window, and to have
people follow WCAG 2.4.9 over 2.4.4, with the only exception being
links in a table (if the links with identical text have header cells
that make them unique that is sufficient).
But if you are operating under restrictions such as minimal WCAG
conformance you often do not have that decision power.



On 2/19/19, glen walker < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Yes, meta info is more about usability and user experience.
>
> And you are correct that if something is inaccessible to everyone, then
> it's not an accessibility issue, ironically. If no one can get to the
> information, then it's a bad experience for everyone. That doesn't mean it
> shouldn't be fixed, but it would be under the umbrella of usability rather
> than specifically about accessibility.
>
> For links that open a new window or new tab, that would fall under 3.2.5
> (AAA). While a click on a link is a strong request for change, if that
> change also includes opening a new tab, that's an unexpected change. When
> a new tab opens, my "back" button won't work. If I'm not aware that a new
> tab opened, then it could be very confusing why I can't go back.
>
> Whether JAWS or another screen reader announces that a link goes to another
> location on the same page is somewhat irrelevant. Sometimes screen reader
> users get more information than sighted users. For example, when
> navigating to a combobox (<select> element), jaws will tell you how many
> items are in the dropdown list. Sighted users don't have that benefit.
> They have to open the list and count the items. But that doesn't mean we
> should display the number of items in the list in the combobox's label just
> because a screen reader provides that information. I feel the same about
> links. If a screen reader tells you it's an in-page link, that's fine, but
> it doesn't mean there needs to be a visual indicator that you have an
> in-page link.
>
> Now, I should have caveated all my comments that they are just my opinion.
> There are a lot of smart people on this list that might have a
> contradictory opinion. But your original question did ask for "opinions".
>
> Glen
> > > > >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: Wolfgang Berndorfer
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2019 12:04PM
Subject: Re: Meta Infos necessary in links?
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Seems, everything is said, so I try to sum up. Thanks to Glen and Birkir for
input.

1) Link-types to consider for meta info indication
a) Link to external website.
b) Linked document is in foreign language.
c) Format of the linked document (PDF / Excel / .)
d) In-side link (Link to an ID on the same side.)
e) Link opens new window (target="_blank")

2) Requirements according to WCAG

Meta info for a link is an issue of usability, not accessibility according
to WCAG. SC 2.4.4 (and AAA-conformance 2.4.9) ask for link text to be
meaningful in context or even alone. But this doesn't imply meta info
necessarily.

Tech H30 says in example 6 that no meta info is necessary:

https://www.w3.org/TR/2016/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20161007/H30#H30-ex6

If an icon is used to visually indicate meta info, it becomes a WCAG SC
1.1.1 (alt text) issue to indicate the same to users who can't see the
icons.

If an indicator for meta info is used, it should be used consistently among
the website according to SC 3.2.4 Consistent Identification (Conformance
AAA).

For AAA conformance, 3.2.5 Change on Request might apply, especially for
links that open in a new window.

3) Usability considerations concerning meta info on links

Extra meta info on each link would be helpful for user experience (UX) and
further more for acceessiblity experience (AX).

An exception would be a table with links in a column, which is provided with
meta info from the column heading (th) already.

4) Open questions

The philosophy of WCAG is somehow: If everybody is made confused, it's no
discrimination, when AT-users get confused too. Should this philosophy be
discussed?

Would visual indicators for in-side-links be helpful? JAWS provides the
information technically already.

Wolfgang