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Thread: ISO-HTML
Number of posts in this thread: 18 (In chronological order)
From: James Pickering
Date: Sun, Jun 26 2005 8:50PM
Subject: ISO-HTML
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The ISO -- International Organization for Standardization -- consists of the national standards institutes of 151 countries, on the basis of one member per country, with a Central Secretariat in Geneva, Switzerland. It promulgates, develops and maintains world wide technical standards.
Note that the W3C (World Wide Web Consortium) only makes recommendations -- it is the ISO that publishes standards.
The International standard for HTML is prescribed by the Document https://www.cs.tcd.ie/15445/15445.html and the Users Guide for ISO/IEC 15445:2000 (ISO-HTML) is at https://www.cs.tcd.ie/15445/UG.HTML
Features of ISO-HTML .....
1. The hierarchy of the header elements (H1, H2, H3, H4, H5 H6) is rigidly enforced. For example, H2 is not allowed to precede H1 at any place in a document.
2. HEIGHT and WIDTH parameters for IMG must be designated in style sheets.
3. Numerous W3C HTML 4.01 elements are refined in ISO-HTML.
4. Numerous W3C HTML 4.01 attributes are omitted from the standard or their use is restricted as outlined in the following quote from the Users Guide ..... "The W3C Recommendation for HTML 4.01 provides a number of attributes that are not supported by the International Standard. They have been omitted because they are used to describe appearance rather than structure, or because the feature is considered to be still too unstable or immature for an International Standard."
5. The Standard separates content from presentation as delineated in the following quote from the Users Guide ....... "The International Standard is based on the well established principle that it is good document design to separate the content of a document from the intended style in which it is to be presented to a reader ..... "
6. The methodology for accomplishing presentation is outlined in the following quote from the Users Guide ..... "Although the International Standard does not specify a style sheet language, this User's Guide recommends that authors of ISO-HTML documents use Cascading Style Sheets as specified by the World Wide Web Consortium."
7. Style sheets must be linked -- embedded style constructs are not allowed.
James Pickering
Pickering Pages
http://www.jp29.org/
From: Cheryl D Wise
Date: Mon, Jun 27 2005 8:10AM
Subject: RE: ISO-HTML
← Previous message | Next message →
Well, I guess I will not be writing "ISO-HTML" any time in the near future.
IMHO, image height and width belong in the HTML not in the stylesheet
otherwise you need an ID for every image and a stylesheet that is either
very bloated OR can only be applied on a page by page basis. For that same
reason No. 6 is is a bit silly. They will defer to the W3C for CSS without
making it a "standard' but will not accept HTML from the W3C.
I will continue to use the W3C XHTML doctypes.
Cheryl D. Wise
MS FrontPage MVP
http://mvp.wiserways.com <http://mvp.wiserways.com/>;
http://starttoweb.com <http://starttoweb.com/>; - Online instructor led web
design training in FrontPage, Dreamweaver and more!
_____
From: James Pickering
ML
The ISO -- International Organization for Standardization -- consists of the
national standards institutes of 151 countries, on the basis of one member
per country, with a Central Secretariat in Geneva, Switzerland. It
promulgates, develops and maintains world wide technical standards.
Note that the W3C (World Wide Web Consortium) only makes recommendations --
it is the ISO that publishes standards.
The International standard for HTML is prescribed by the Document
https://www.cs.tcd.ie/15445/15445.html and the Users Guide for ISO/IEC
15445:2000 (ISO-HTML) is at <https://www.cs.tcd.ie/15445/UG.HTML>
https://www.cs.tcd.ie/15445/UG.HTML
Features of ISO-HTML .....
1. The hierarchy of the header elements (H1, H2, H3, H4, H5 H6) is rigidly
enforced. For example, H2 is not allowed to precede H1 at any place in a
document.
2. HEIGHT and WIDTH parameters for IMG must be designated in style sheets.
3. Numerous W3C HTML 4.01 elements are refined in ISO-HTML.
4. Numerous W3C HTML 4.01 attributes are omitted from the standard or their
use is restricted as outlined in the following quote from the Users Guide
..... "The W3C Recommendation for HTML 4.01 provides a number of attributes
that are not supported by the International Standard. They have been omitted
because they are used to describe appearance rather than structure, or
because the feature is considered to be still too unstable or immature for
an International Standard."
5. The Standard separates content from presentation as delineated in the
following quote from the Users Guide ....... "The International Standard is
based on the well established principle that it is good document design to
separate the content of a document from the intended style in which it is to
be presented to a reader ..... "
6. The methodology for accomplishing presentation is outlined in the
following quote from the Users Guide ..... "Although the International
Standard does not specify a style sheet language, this User's Guide
recommends that authors of ISO-HTML documents use Cascading Style Sheets as
specified by the World Wide Web Consortium."
7. Style sheets must be linked -- embedded style constructs are not allowed.
James Pickering
Pickering Pages
http://www.jp29.org/
From: Pat Richard
Date: Mon, Jun 27 2005 10:34AM
Subject: RE: ISO-HTML
← Previous message | Next message →
I agree. And putting the height & width in the style sheet will
immediately break validation from the W3C validator. Most of the other
items make sense, to some point, but for other reasons.
I think if you code to XHTML 1.0 Transitional or higher, you're doing
good. Add your accessibility and other needs after that, and you'll end
up with a very stable site that should work in most modern browsers.
________________________________
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Cheryl D Wise
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 10:13 AM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
Subject: RE: [WebAIM] ISO-HTML
Well, I guess I will not be writing "ISO-HTML" any time in the near
future. IMHO, image height and width belong in the HTML not in the
stylesheet otherwise you need an ID for every image and a stylesheet
that is either very bloated OR can only be applied on a page by page
basis. For that same reason No. 6 is is a bit silly. They will defer to
the W3C for CSS without making it a "standard' but will not accept HTML
from the W3C.
I will continue to use the W3C XHTML doctypes.
Cheryl D. Wise
MS FrontPage MVP
http://mvp.wiserways.com <http://mvp.wiserways.com/>;
http://starttoweb.com <http://starttoweb.com/>; - Online instructor led
web design training in FrontPage, Dreamweaver and more!
________________________________
From: James Pickering
ML
The ISO -- International Organization for Standardization -- consists of
the national standards institutes of 151 countries, on the basis of one
member per country, with a Central Secretariat in Geneva, Switzerland.
It promulgates, develops and maintains world wide technical standards.
Note that the W3C (World Wide Web Consortium) only makes recommendations
-- it is the ISO that publishes standards.
The International standard for HTML is prescribed by the Document
https://www.cs.tcd.ie/15445/15445.html and the Users Guide for ISO/IEC
15445:2000 (ISO-HTML) is at https://www.cs.tcd.ie/15445/UG.HTML
<https://www.cs.tcd.ie/15445/UG.HTML>
Features of ISO-HTML .....
1. The hierarchy of the header elements (H1, H2, H3, H4, H5 H6) is
rigidly enforced. For example, H2 is not allowed to precede H1 at any
place in a document.
2. HEIGHT and WIDTH parameters for IMG must be designated in style
sheets.
3. Numerous W3C HTML 4.01 elements are refined in ISO-HTML.
4. Numerous W3C HTML 4.01 attributes are omitted from the standard or
their use is restricted as outlined in the following quote from the
Users Guide ..... "The W3C Recommendation for HTML 4.01 provides a
number of attributes that are not supported by the International
Standard. They have been omitted because they are used to describe
appearance rather than structure, or because the feature is considered
to be still too unstable or immature for an International Standard."
5. The Standard separates content from presentation as delineated in the
following quote from the Users Guide ....... "The International Standard
is based on the well established principle that it is good document
design to separate the content of a document from the intended style in
which it is to be presented to a reader ..... "
6. The methodology for accomplishing presentation is outlined in the
following quote from the Users Guide ..... "Although the International
Standard does not specify a style sheet language, this User's Guide
recommends that authors of ISO-HTML documents use Cascading Style Sheets
as specified by the World Wide Web Consortium."
7. Style sheets must be linked -- embedded style constructs are not
allowed.
James Pickering
Pickering Pages
http://www.jp29.org/
From: Thomas Jedenfelt
Date: Mon, Jun 27 2005 11:40AM
Subject: Re: ISO-HTML
← Previous message | Next message →
Are there any accessibility advantages using the ISO doctype, rather than e.g. [W3C HTML 4.01 Strict] or [W3C XHTML 1.0 Strict]?
Thanks to James for the summary of the ISO/IEC 15445:2000 DTD.
Regards,
Thomas Jedenfelt
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Pickering"
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 19:52:06 -0700
>
> The ISO -- International Organization for Standardization --
> consists of the national standards institutes of 151 countries, on
> the basis of one member per country, with a Central Secretariat in
> Geneva, Switzerland. It promulgates, develops and maintains world
> wide technical standards.
>
> Note that the W3C (World Wide Web Consortium) only makes
> recommendations -- it is the ISO that publishes standards.
>
> The International standard for HTML is prescribed by the Document
> https://www.cs.tcd.ie/15445/15445.html and the Users Guide for
> ISO/IEC 15445:2000 (ISO-HTML) is at
> https://www.cs.tcd.ie/15445/UG.HTML
>
> Features of ISO-HTML .....
>
> 1. The hierarchy of the header elements (H1, H2, H3, H4, H5 H6) is
> rigidly enforced. For example, H2 is not allowed to precede H1 at
> any place in a document.
>
> 2. HEIGHT and WIDTH parameters for IMG must be designated in style sheets.
>
> 3. Numerous W3C HTML 4.01 elements are refined in ISO-HTML.
>
> 4. Numerous W3C HTML 4.01 attributes are omitted from the standard
> or their use is restricted as outlined in the following quote from
> the Users Guide ..... "The W3C Recommendation for HTML 4.01
> provides a number of attributes that are not supported by the
> International Standard. They have been omitted because they are
> used to describe appearance rather than structure, or because the
> feature is considered to be still too unstable or immature for an
> International Standard."
>
> 5. The Standard separates content from presentation as delineated
> in the following quote from the Users Guide ....... "The
> International Standard is based on the well established principle
> that it is good document design to separate the content of a
> document from the intended style in which it is to be presented to
> a reader ..... "
>
> 6. The methodology for accomplishing presentation is outlined in
> the following quote from the Users Guide ..... "Although the
> International Standard does not specify a style sheet language,
> this User's Guide recommends that authors of ISO-HTML documents use
> Cascading Style Sheets as specified by the World Wide Web
> Consortium."
>
> 7. Style sheets must be linked -- embedded style constructs are not allowed.
>
> James Pickering
> Pickering Pages
> http://www.jp29.org/
--
Surf the Web in a faster, safer and easier way:
Download Opera 8 at http://www.opera.com
From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Mon, Jun 27 2005 12:00PM
Subject: Re: ISO-HTML
← Previous message | Next message →
> And putting the height & width in the style sheet will immediately
> break validation from the W3C validator.
This isn't true. Height and width are optional attributes, so putting
these in the CSS won't make the HTML not validate. Height and width in
the CSS aren't a validation problem either.
In fact, if you are using ems for sizing, there is benefit to sizing
the images in the CSS since you can get the image to resize along with
the text when the user increases the font size (if that is desirable on
the particular site or for a particular image).
For a working example:
http://www.htmldog.com/articles/elasticdesign/demo/ (example cited in
Patrick Griffith's alistapart.com article, "Elastic Design".
AWK
--
Andrew Kirkpatrick
WGBH National Center for Accessible Media
125 Western Ave.
Boston, MA 02134
E-mail: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
617.300.4420
From: Cheryl D Wise
Date: Mon, Jun 27 2005 12:19PM
Subject: RE: ISO-HTML
← Previous message | Next message →
You can still size the height and width of an image in percents or ems in
the HTML, so why would it be better to put in the CSS?
Unless you use a very limited number of image sizes as generic classes it
would still bloat your CSS considerably without providing any benefit over
having the height of width of an image in the html whether it is specified
in ems or pixels is immaterial.
If you know of a tool that will allow one to take a pixel measurement and
convert it into ems without a lot of trial and error I for one would be
happy to know of it.
Cheryl D. Wise
MS FrontPage MVP
http://mvp.wiserways.com
http://starttoweb.com - Online instructor led web design training in
FrontPage, Dreamweaver and more!
From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Mon, Jun 27 2005 12:27PM
Subject: Re: ISO-HTML
← Previous message | Next message →
> You can still size the height and width of an image in percents or ems
> in
> the HTML, so why would it be better to put in the CSS?
Percents, yes. Ems, no.
If you are using a lot of images I agree that this could bloat the
code, but if you are not using images of text and you are following a
template for the pages in a site so that you know where the images go
on the page and can reference them by id or tree position you won't
have that much extra CSS. The CSS might be larger, but the HTML will
be a little smaller and the CSS is usually cached.
AWK
> Unless you use a very limited number of image sizes as generic classes
> it
> would still bloat your CSS considerably without providing any benefit
> over
> having the height of width of an image in the html whether it is
> specified
> in ems or pixels is immaterial.
>
> If you know of a tool that will allow one to take a pixel measurement
> and
> convert it into ems without a lot of trial and error I for one would be
> happy to know of it.
>
> Cheryl D. Wise
> MS FrontPage MVP
> http://mvp.wiserways.com
> http://starttoweb.com - Online instructor led web design training in
> FrontPage, Dreamweaver and more!
>
>
>
From: John Foliot - WATS.ca
Date: Mon, Jun 27 2005 1:10PM
Subject: RE: ISO-HTML
← Previous message | Next message →
Andrew Kirkpatrick wrote:
>
> For a working example:
> http://www.htmldog.com/articles/elasticdesign/demo/ (example cited in
> Patrick Griffith's alistapart.com article, "Elastic Design".
>
...and previously written about 6 months earlier (2003-05-08) at:
http://wats.ca/resources/relativesizing/20 <wink>
Cheers!
JF
--
John Foliot = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Web Accessibility Specialist / Co-founder of WATS.ca
Web Accessibility Testing and Services
http://www.wats.ca
Phone: 1-613-482-7053
From: James Pickering
Date: Mon, Jun 27 2005 2:57PM
Subject: Re: ISO-HTML
← Previous message | Next message →
Pat Richard wrote:
..... putting the height & width in the style sheet will immediately break validation from the W3C validator .....
Not so, check the HTML & CSS validation for my index page below.
James Pickering
Pickering Pages
http://www.jp29.org/
----- Original Message -----
From: Pat Richard
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; WebAIM Discussion List
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 9:35 AM
Subject: RE: [WebAIM] ISO-HTML
I agree. And putting the height & width in the style sheet will immediately break validation from the W3C validator. Most of the other items make sense, to some point, but for other reasons.
I think if you code to XHTML 1.0 Transitional or higher, you're doing good. Add your accessibility and other needs after that, and you'll end up with a very stable site that should work in most modern browsers.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Cheryl D Wise
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 10:13 AM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
Subject: RE: [WebAIM] ISO-HTML
Well, I guess I will not be writing "ISO-HTML" any time in the near future. IMHO, image height and width belong in the HTML not in the stylesheet otherwise you need an ID for every image and a stylesheet that is either very bloated OR can only be applied on a page by page basis. For that same reason No. 6 is is a bit silly. They will defer to the W3C for CSS without making it a "standard' but will not accept HTML from the W3C.
I will continue to use the W3C XHTML doctypes.
Cheryl D. Wise
MS FrontPage MVP
http://mvp.wiserways.com
http://starttoweb.com - Online instructor led web design training in FrontPage, Dreamweaver and more!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: James Pickering
ML
The ISO -- International Organization for Standardization -- consists of the national standards institutes of 151 countries, on the basis of one member per country, with a Central Secretariat in Geneva, Switzerland. It promulgates, develops and maintains world wide technical standards.
Note that the W3C (World Wide Web Consortium) only makes recommendations -- it is the ISO that publishes standards.
The International standard for HTML is prescribed by the Document https://www.cs.tcd.ie/15445/15445.html and the Users Guide for ISO/IEC 15445:2000 (ISO-HTML) is at https://www.cs.tcd.ie/15445/UG.HTML
Features of ISO-HTML .....
1. The hierarchy of the header elements (H1, H2, H3, H4, H5 H6) is rigidly enforced. For example, H2 is not allowed to precede H1 at any place in a document.
2. HEIGHT and WIDTH parameters for IMG must be designated in style sheets.
3. Numerous W3C HTML 4.01 elements are refined in ISO-HTML.
4. Numerous W3C HTML 4.01 attributes are omitted from the standard or their use is restricted as outlined in the following quote from the Users Guide ..... "The W3C Recommendation for HTML 4.01 provides a number of attributes that are not supported by the International Standard. They have been omitted because they are used to describe appearance rather than structure, or because the feature is considered to be still too unstable or immature for an International Standard."
5. The Standard separates content from presentation as delineated in the following quote from the Users Guide ....... "The International Standard is based on the well established principle that it is good document design to separate the content of a document from the intended style in which it is to be presented to a reader ..... "
6. The methodology for accomplishing presentation is outlined in the following quote from the Users Guide ..... "Although the International Standard does not specify a style sheet language, this User's Guide recommends that authors of ISO-HTML documents use Cascading Style Sheets as specified by the World Wide Web Consortium."
7. Style sheets must be linked -- embedded style constructs are not allowed.
James Pickering
Pickering Pages
http://www.jp29.org/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: James Pickering
Date: Mon, Jun 27 2005 3:22PM
Subject: Re: ISO-HTML
← Previous message | Next message →
Cheryl, you wrote:
..... image height and width belong in the HTML not in the stylesheet otherwise you need an ID for every image and a stylesheet that is either very bloated OR can only be applied on a page by page basis .....
Of course, you don't have to specify height and width attributes for any image -- unless you want to. I don't do so on my web pages except for my index page where I do so to illustrate the HTML/CSS interaction.
I will continue to use the W3C XHTML doctypes.
And so you should, IMO, if the pages you produce validate and are therefor interoperable. BTW, because of its "strictness", valid ISO-HTML markup produces pages that can be easily modified to validate as W3C HTML 4.01 (strict), XHTML Basic, XHTML 1.0 (strict) or XHTML 1.1. All that is needed is to substitute the appropriate DOCTYPE Declaration and, in the case of XHTML versions, adjust the empty element tags -- I write all of my markup in lowercase as a matter of course. Dave Raggett's excellent utility "Tidy" is a valuable resource here. It will not necessarily work the other way around, however.
James Pickering
Pickering Pages
http://www.jp29.org/
----- Original Message -----
From: Cheryl D Wise
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 7:13 AM
Subject: RE: [WebAIM] ISO-HTML
Well, I guess I will not be writing "ISO-HTML" any time in the near future. IMHO, image height and width belong in the HTML not in the stylesheet otherwise you need an ID for every image and a stylesheet that is either very bloated OR can only be applied on a page by page basis. For that same reason No. 6 is is a bit silly. They will defer to the W3C for CSS without making it a "standard' but will not accept HTML from the W3C.
I will continue to use the W3C XHTML doctypes.
Cheryl D. Wise
MS FrontPage MVP
http://mvp.wiserways.com
http://starttoweb.com - Online instructor led web design training in FrontPage, Dreamweaver and more!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: James Pickering
ML
The ISO -- International Organization for Standardization -- consists of the national standards institutes of 151 countries, on the basis of one member per country, with a Central Secretariat in Geneva, Switzerland. It promulgates, develops and maintains world wide technical standards.
Note that the W3C (World Wide Web Consortium) only makes recommendations -- it is the ISO that publishes standards.
The International standard for HTML is prescribed by the Document https://www.cs.tcd.ie/15445/15445.html and the Users Guide for ISO/IEC 15445:2000 (ISO-HTML) is at https://www.cs.tcd.ie/15445/UG.HTML
Features of ISO-HTML .....
1. The hierarchy of the header elements (H1, H2, H3, H4, H5 H6) is rigidly enforced. For example, H2 is not allowed to precede H1 at any place in a document.
2. HEIGHT and WIDTH parameters for IMG must be designated in style sheets.
3. Numerous W3C HTML 4.01 elements are refined in ISO-HTML.
4. Numerous W3C HTML 4.01 attributes are omitted from the standard or their use is restricted as outlined in the following quote from the Users Guide ..... "The W3C Recommendation for HTML 4.01 provides a number of attributes that are not supported by the International Standard. They have been omitted because they are used to describe appearance rather than structure, or because the feature is considered to be still too unstable or immature for an International Standard."
5. The Standard separates content from presentation as delineated in the following quote from the Users Guide ....... "The International Standard is based on the well established principle that it is good document design to separate the content of a document from the intended style in which it is to be presented to a reader ..... "
6. The methodology for accomplishing presentation is outlined in the following quote from the Users Guide ..... "Although the International Standard does not specify a style sheet language, this User's Guide recommends that authors of ISO-HTML documents use Cascading Style Sheets as specified by the World Wide Web Consortium."
7. Style sheets must be linked -- embedded style constructs are not allowed.
James Pickering
Pickering Pages
http://www.jp29.org/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael D. Roush
Date: Mon, Jun 27 2005 4:00PM
Subject: Re: ISO-HTML
← Previous message | Next message →
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* James Pickering
> ML
>
> The ISO -- International Organization for Standardization --
> consists of the national standards institutes of 151 countries, on
> the basis of one member per country, with a Central Secretariat in
> Geneva, Switzerland. It promulgates, develops and maintains world
> wide technical standards.
>
> Note that the W3C (World Wide Web Consortium) only makes
> recommendations -- it is the ISO that publishes standards.
>
>
I think my biggest reservation with giving a significant amount of
attention to designing for the ISO-HTML standard instead of / as well as
W3C's recommendations has to do with functionality. ISO standards are
the result of discussions of the presentatives of member countries. Not
one of those countries produces a web browser. The W3C, on the other
hand, has a much more open membership organization. If ISO wants to
issue a standard of its own devising on HTML, that's perfectly fine.
They can issue standards on anything they want, including how many
chocolate chips are standard in a half-kilogram bag of chocolate-chip
cookies. However, I think this 'standard' being revered as anything
more than just a renamed recommendation goes against the open nature of
the World Wide Web - only allowing government(s) to have control over
what is and is not "standard" html. I think browser developers should
not be left out of the discussions in what should be "standard" html -
and whatever way you spin ISO by saying that they can still ask the
browser developers in a non-member kind of way, or that the browser
developers can make their thoughts known to the various national
representatives, I don't like the idea of the developers and other
technology fields being left out of direct discussion of and
contribution to 'standard' html (which should never be enforced as some
standards are anyway) independent of a national affiliation.
If ISO-html goes beyond W3C recommendations, it goes too far. If
ISO-html stops short of W3C recommendations, it doesn't go far enough.
If ISO-html matches W3C recommendations specifically, why bother?
<acronym title="In my humble opinion">imho</acronym>.
From: Terence de Giere
Date: Mon, Jun 27 2005 7:13PM
Subject: ISO-HTML
← Previous message | Next message →
Thomas Jedenfelt < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote
Are there any accessibility advantages using the
ISO doctype, rather than e.g.
[W3C HTML 4.01 Strict] or
[W3C XHTML 1.0 Strict]?
ISO HTML is an accessible document type, but depending on the software
you are using to edit it, it might be difficult or impossible to use.
Graphical editing software tends to add things that ISO HTML does not
support. ISO HTML does not support scripting, for example. Many software
packages will automatically add image sizing information when the page
is loaded etc. ISO HTML works fine in an Standard Generalized Markup
Language editor where you can load the Document Type Definition, but I
am not sure it is really practical for most HTML editing programs. I
have used ISO HTML. This international standard, edited by Roger Price
and David Abrahamson represents a very conservative but very accessible
subset of HTML 4.01 strict, and emphasizes the use of stable and mature
features of HTML that have been around the longest.
If you have the means to edit it efficiently by all means use it if it
fits your requirements. But note many new kinds of devices, like cell
phones that support web pages are using XHTML as their basic page
language. The shift is toward the use of XML rather than SGML, and you
can easily emulate the features of ISO HTML with HTML 4.01 strict or
XHTML 1.0 strict. Very few people seem to be using ISO HTML, probably
because of the lack of easy-to-use-software for editing. You can
validate ISO HTML using the W3C's HTML validator.
If graphical sophistication is a requirement, the limitations of ISO
HTML might be a hindrance. For example, one cannot place headings inside
DIV elements, so some of the tricks for creating CSS format boxes to
replace table format in other versions of HTML cannot be done with this
version. ISO HTML is best for one-column, well-structured, documents
such as an academic report. A one-column format is of course, the most
accessible format.
Terence de Giere
From: Austin, Darrel
Date: Tue, Jun 28 2005 9:42AM
Subject: RE: ISO-HTML
← Previous message | Next message →
> They can issue standards on anything they want, including how
> many chocolate chips are standard in a half-kilogram bag of
> chocolate-chip cookies. However, I think this 'standard'
> being revered as anything more than just a renamed
> recommendation goes against the open nature of the World Wide
> Web
Reading this discussion, I'm struggling with 'what's the point of ISO HTML?'
Was there a problem out there that they were trying to resolve with an ISO
standard?
Seems more like a 'hey...here's something we haven't put together an
arbitrary standard for yet...get on that!' thing.
> If ISO-html goes beyond W3C recommendations, it goes too far.
> If ISO-html stops short of W3C recommendations, it doesn't
> go far enough.
> If ISO-html matches W3C recommendations specifically, why bother?
I completely agree.
-Darrel
From: Thomas Jedenfelt
Date: Wed, Jun 29 2005 12:21AM
Subject: Re: ISO-HTML
← Previous message | Next message →
Hello Terence,
Thanks for your detailed reply.
Then, ISO HTML has not any accessibility advantages over W3C HTML 4 or XHTML.
The decisive drawbacks, for me, are:
1) Headings are not allowed in a DIV container;
2) Cell phones (always?, most often?) use XHTML.
Other drawbacks:
1) Few editors support ISO HTML;
2) No support for scripting.
I did not know that ISO HTML is a subset of HTML 4.01 Strict. I thought it was the other way around.
Regards,
Thomas Jedenfelt
(non-professional Web developer since 1997)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Terence de Giere"
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:13:55 -0400
>
> Thomas Jedenfelt < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote
>
> > Are there any accessibility advantages using the
> > ISO doctype, rather than e.g.
> > [W3C HTML 4.01 Strict] or
> > [W3C XHTML 1.0 Strict]?
>
>
> ISO HTML is an accessible document type, but depending on the
> software you are using to edit it, it might be difficult or
> impossible to use. Graphical editing software tends to add things
> that ISO HTML does not support. ISO HTML does not support
> scripting, for example. Many software packages will automatically
> add image sizing information when the page is loaded etc. ISO HTML
> works fine in an Standard Generalized Markup Language editor where
> you can load the Document Type Definition, but I am not sure it is
> really practical for most HTML editing programs. I have used ISO
> HTML. This international standard, edited by Roger Price and David
> Abrahamson represents a very conservative but very accessible
> subset of HTML 4.01 strict, and emphasizes the use of stable and
> mature features of HTML that have been around the longest.
>
> If you have the means to edit it efficiently by all means use it if
> it fits your requirements. But note many new kinds of devices, like
> cell phones that support web pages are using XHTML as their basic
> page language. The shift is toward the use of XML rather than SGML,
> and you can easily emulate the features of ISO HTML with HTML 4.01
> strict or XHTML 1.0 strict. Very few people seem to be using ISO
> HTML, probably because of the lack of easy-to-use-software for
> editing. You can validate ISO HTML using the W3C's HTML validator.
>
> If graphical sophistication is a requirement, the limitations of
> ISO HTML might be a hindrance. For example, one cannot place
> headings inside DIV elements, so some of the tricks for creating
> CSS format boxes to replace table format in other versions of HTML
> cannot be done with this version. ISO HTML is best for one-column,
> well-structured, documents such as an academic report. A one-column
> format is of course, the most accessible format.
>
> Terence de Giere
--
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From: James Pickering
Date: Wed, Jun 29 2005 11:38AM
Subject: ISO-HTML follow up
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There have been some excellent responses to my posting relating to ISO-HTML.
Following are my personal observations and comments:
Thomas Jedenfelt wrote:
Thanks to James for the summary of the ISO/IEC 15445:2000 DTD.
Thank you, in turn, Thomas. Let me take this opportunity to point out that I am no ISO-HTML zealot. I do find it interesting, however, that ISO-HTML is the only implemention of HTML that can claim to be a true standard. I am currently using ISO-HTML for my private active Website who's pages are, by preference, of simple single column structure -- forty two pages incorporating several hundred graphical images. ISO-HTML -- which is actually a core of mature HTML elements and attributes -- works very well for these pages. Actually, in this instance I am composing and validating these pages using ISO-HTML so that I can publish them in any HTML/XHTML "flavor" of my choice -- when they validate as ISO-HTML they will also validate as HTML 4.x (strict), XHTML 1.0 (strict), XHTML 1.1 and XHTML Basic by substituting the appropriate DocType/DTD/Namespace data (and running XHTML pages through "Tidy" to close open tags). Inasmuch as I have implemented my own CMS system (built around HTML-Kit, my Editor) which provides batch DocType/DTD/Namespace data substitution, Markup Validation and "Tidy" processing it is a relatively quick and easy task. I have installed a link to an XHTML 1.0 (strict) version of my index page (link in my
signature block below) if you would like to check it out. I actually will soon convert my pages to HTML 4.01 (Strict) -- my implementation of choice -- using my CMS. BTW, I will also great rid of the "Icon clutter " on my Home page pretty soon.
Michael D. Roush wrote:
..... I don't like the idea of the developers and other technology fields being left out of direct discussion of and contribution to 'standard' html .....
In all fairness, Michael, they had considerable input during the development of the ISO-HTML Standard. Dave Raggett of the
W3C -- one of the most respected and influential contributors to W3C HTML Development and implementation -- worked very closely with the ISO throughout.
Terence de Giere wrote:
ISO HTML is an accessible document type, but depending on the software you are using to edit it, it might be difficult or impossible to use. Graphical editing software tends to add things that ISO HTML does not support. ISO HTML does not support scripting, for example. Many software packages will automatically add image sizing information when the page is loaded etc. ISO HTML works fine in an Standard Generalized Markup Language editor where you can load the Document Type Definition, but I am not sure it is really practical for most HTML editing programs .....
A very good assessment, IMO.
If you have the means to edit it efficiently by all means use it if it fits your requirements ..... Very few people seem to be using ISO HTML, probably because of the lack of easy-to-use-software for editing. You can validate ISO HTML using the W3C's HTML validator .....if graphical sophistication is a requirement, the limitations of ISO HTML might be a hindrance. For example, one cannot place headings inside DIV elements, so some of the tricks for creating CSS format boxes to replace table format in other versions of HTML cannot be done with this version. ISO HTML is best for one-column, well-structured, documents such as an academic report .....
Excellent points -- BTW, all the Markup Validators I use (W3C, WDG, Nick Kew, Spirit) process ISO-HTML.
Cheryl D. Wise wrote:
..... I will continue to use the W3C XHTML doctypes.
I think you should, Cheryl -- IMO, the important thing is to compose Web pages in a way that is the most comfortable for you and that are Interoperable as defined by the W3C.
James
Pickering Pages: http://www.jp29.org/
From: Terence de Giere
Date: Wed, Jun 29 2005 8:43PM
Subject: ISO-HTML
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"Thomas Jedenfelt" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
2) Cell phones (always?, most often?) use XHTML.
Cell phones may not support XHTML at all, and some with full function browsers like the Opera browser, can fully support HTML. In between there are phones with 'microbrowsers' that support XHTML or a subset of XHTML. XHTML has fewer complexities than HTML for rendering software because a number of space-saving routines in SGML (from which HTML is derived) are removed, making rendering software simpler. For example in HTML you can omit the ending </p> tag but it is required in XHTML. The parser for HTML has to scan ahead and figure out where the paragraph ended to correctly render a page, but in XHTML the end of the paragraph is strictly defined, so the renderer doesn't have to solve any ambiguities. At the most limited bandwidth end of phones that support Internet connectivity is the use of WML (wireless markup language).
A number of cell phone manufacturers voiced support for XHTML a couple of years back as being the best solution for a small device. XHTML is a considerable improvement over the more limited WML. XHTML offers extensibility which HTML does not provide. While WML is in theory extensible, XHTML offers the advantage of being able to use the same code, or almost the same code for all devices. Some services provide reformatting of HTML pages (on an intermediate server) to a form usable by particular cell phones. XHTML seems to be where everything is headed.
Another thing to consider is in the current environment of security threats - using old browsers is a liability, and the trend is constant patches of current versions of browsers to stay ahead of intruders. This can be a strain for the disabled, as they often have fewer resources to update technology, but staying current is the only way to go online and not be wide open to attack. This goes for cell phone users as well. XHTML offers the simplest path for development because it is forward compatible and is garnering wide support.
ISO HTML is backward compatible and accessible to a great degree; XHTML is forward compatible to a great degree, and depending on which features you use, XHTML can also be backward compatible and very accessible.
Terence de Giere
From: James Pickering
Date: Thu, Jun 30 2005 10:49PM
Subject: Re: ISO-HTML
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Darrel, you wrote:
.......... Reading this discussion, I'm struggling with 'what's the point of
ISO HTML?' ..........
It represents a stable and reliable "core" of mature HTML 4.01 elements and
attributes. Others have pointed out its shortcomings as a practical,
everyday implementation -- I use it as a tool for producing my own "core"
valid Markup -- I can use such documents/fragments/modules in various
"flavors" of HTML/XHTML with the sure knowledge that they will work
correctly.
I am currently presenting my Web pages as ISO-HTML only to illustrate its
"strictness" -- I will soon revert them to HTML 4.01 (strict) -- my current
implementation of choice.
In order to present my pages as XHTML -- 1.0 (soon to be 2.0) and/or basic
and 1.1 -- they would have to be correctly served as Content-type:
application/xhtml+xml (as previously discussed) and such pages break to
various degrees in MSIE 5x/6x Browsers -- currently the most used/popular
rendering agents (in most instances they serve a downloadable file). XHTML
1.0 documents served as Content-type text/html are mostly rendered as HTML
and are treated as "tag soup" by compliant Browsers.
There is a link to an exemplar XHTML 1.0 (Strict) version of my Home page
served as Content-type: application/xhtml+xml which can be examined via the
URL link in my signature block below.
BTW, the W3C Markup Validator Extended Interface displays the Document
Content-type -- a quick way to see how it is actually being served.
James Pickering
Pickering Pages
http://www.jp29.org/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Austin, Darrel" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "'WebAIM Discussion List'" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 8:43 AM
Subject: RE: [WebAIM] ISO-HTML
>
>> They can issue standards on anything they want, including how
>> many chocolate chips are standard in a half-kilogram bag of
>> chocolate-chip cookies. However, I think this 'standard'
>> being revered as anything more than just a renamed
>> recommendation goes against the open nature of the World Wide
>> Web
>
> Reading this discussion, I'm struggling with 'what's the point of ISO
> HTML?'
>
> Was there a problem out there that they were trying to resolve with an ISO
> standard?
>
> Seems more like a 'hey...here's something we haven't put together an
> arbitrary standard for yet...get on that!' thing.
>
>> If ISO-html goes beyond W3C recommendations, it goes too far.
>> If ISO-html stops short of W3C recommendations, it doesn't
>> go far enough.
>> If ISO-html matches W3C recommendations specifically, why bother?
>
> I completely agree.
>
> -Darrel
>
>
>
>
From: Thomas Jedenfelt
Date: Fri, Jul 01 2005 1:18AM
Subject: Re: ISO-HTML
← Previous message | No next message
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Pickering"
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:50:03 -0700
>
> XHTML 1.0 documents served as Content-type text/html
> are mostly rendered as HTML and are treated as
> "tag soup" by compliant Browsers.
>
Regarding the browser Microsoft Internet Explorer (MSIE),
the article 'Serving XHTML 1.0' [1] suggests omitting the XML declaration to avoid 'tag soup':
QUOTE
Here are the options. Obviously, if your document contains no constructs that are affected by the difference between standards vs. quirks mode this is a non-issue. If, on the other hand, that is not the case, you will have to add workarounds to your CSS to overcome the differences, or omit the XML declaration.
UNQUOTE
[1]
http://www.w3.org/International/articles/serving-xhtml/
Regards,
Thomas Jedenfelt
--
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