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Thread: How does a Screen Reader work?
Number of posts in this thread: 16 (In chronological order)
From: tedd
Date: Sat, Mar 03 2007 12:10PM
Subject: How does a Screen Reader work?
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Hi:
This is my first post to this forum, so if what I'm asking is not
appropriate, please let me know.
Here goes, I am trying to understand how a screen reader works. Not
so much as to the technology surrounding character recognition, but
how the user interacts and uses buttons, links, edit fields and such
web events.
Can anyone provide personal experience as to how all this works?
Please don't tell me to go to a site like Jaws' web site and read,
because I don't have Jaws and the tutorials and such there don't help
much.
My reason for asking is that I'm a web programmer who is trying to
understand disability issues.
You may contact me off-list, if you wish.
Thanks for your attention and time.
Cheers,
tedd
--
-------
http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com
From: Karl Groves
Date: Sat, Mar 03 2007 12:50PM
Subject: Re: How does a Screen Reader work?
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Tedd -
Unfortunately, this really is the kind of thing you must experience to
understand.
On a most basic level, the answer is obvious: It reads the page.
But the experience - for the user of the software - is much more than just
hearing text being read aloud. Things like navigating, following links, and
support for event handlers & dynamic content is also at issue as well.
I wholeheartedly recommend downloading a trial version of Jaws:
http://www.freedomscientific.com/fs_downloads/jaws.asp
There are far too many features (such as shortcut keys) for you to be able
to learn it during the demo period, but actually using a screen reader for a
while will be much more beneficial to you than almost anything.
Karl L. Groves
User-Centered Design, Inc.
Office: 703-729-0998
Mobile: 443-889-8763
E-Mail: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Web: http://www.user-centereddesign.com
>
From: tedd
Date: Sat, Mar 03 2007 4:50PM
Subject: Re: How does a Screen Reader work?
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At 2:41 PM -0500 3/3/07, Karl Groves wrote:
>Tedd -
>
>Unfortunately, this really is the kind of thing you must experience to
>understand.
>On a most basic level, the answer is obvious: It reads the page.
>But the experience - for the user of the software - is much more than just
>hearing text being read aloud. Things like navigating, following links, and
>support for event handlers & dynamic content is also at issue as well.
>
>I wholeheartedly recommend downloading a trial version of Jaws:
>http://www.freedomscientific.com/fs_downloads/jaws.asp
>There are far too many features (such as shortcut keys) for you to be able
>to learn it during the demo period, but actually using a screen reader for a
>while will be much more beneficial to you than almost anything.
>
>Karl L. Groves
Karl:
I thank you for your recommendation. However, my machine is a Mac and
Jaws isn't available to me.
In any event, let me present my question another way, I use the
"Fangs" extension of FireFox to display web pages to me that are
supposed to be representative of what the blind user hears.
Okay, I get the idea behind that "read and speak" thing. However, I
don't know how a blind user accesses buttons and edit fields. It's
one thing to say "button", it's another to have access and be able to
activate it.
For example, I have an experiment I've been working on, which is an
audio CAPTCHA. A sighted user can immediately recognize what it is
and cab use it, but I don't know if a blind or visually impaired user
can -- and that's the point of the exercise.
So, if it's not too much trouble, can the following link be tested by
a visually impaired user?
http://sperling.com/examples/captcha/
I think the site is well documented so there is little need for me to
explain the experiment here.
I am open to receiving comment from all.
Thanks again for your time.
Cheers,
tedd
--- previous email ----
>User-Centered Design, Inc.
>Office: 703-729-0998
>Mobile: 443-889-8763
>E-Mail: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>Web: http://www.user-centereddesign.com
>
>>
From: Travis Roth
Date: Sat, Mar 03 2007 9:20PM
Subject: Re: How does a Screen Reader work?
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Hi Tedd,
Mac has a screen reader as well. It is called VoiceOver, and ships as part
of OS 10.4 and later. I understand that it is not as far along developed as
its Windows counterparts at this time.
Observation on your captcha demo:
* It is similar to Google's, and the audio quality seems similar.
* The page refreshes twice when the "Speak Captcha" button is pressed. When
a page refreshes the screen reader will read the new page. Thus presently
the audio and the screen reader both are speaking at the same time; which is
a rather difficult situation. The user can silence the screen reader, but
needs to be quick about it.
* Again, the page is refreshed when the "Speak Captcha" button is pressed.
While the audio is playing, the edit field is not present for the user to
type. This causes the user to have to remember the sequence of keystrokes
until after the page refreshes, and the edit field is navigated to and
typing can begin. The longer the captcha the more problemmatic this will be.
* Would be better if user could type as the characters are heard. To do
this, do not refresh the page, use some JavaScrit / Ajax techniques here.
* This technique of using sound will work for those who can hear and
understand reasonably well. However, deaf-blind users, and certain other
hard of hearing users will still be locked out.
Travis Roth
Production Manager
TecAccess, LLC
(804) 749-8646 (office)
(402) 466-0907 (direct)
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
www.TecAccess.net
Experts in Section 508 Compliance & Accessibility
NOTICE: This communication may contain privileged or other confidential
information. If you are not the intended recipient or believe that you may
have
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From: Phil Teare
Date: Sun, Mar 04 2007 5:10AM
Subject: Re: How does a Screen Reader work?
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>* Would be better if user could type as the characters are heard.
Should this be near the top of my list for things to add to Talklets
for low-to-no vision users? i.e. Is it a very popular feature for screen
reader users in this demografic? I'm trying to keep it 'lite', and thus only
add the feature most used by blind users on web pages. JAWS et al are great
coz they are so fully featured. But like I say, I'd like to keep talklets as
lite as poss... (never easy).
Many thanks
Phil
--
Phil Teare,
Technical Director & Lead Developer,
http://www.talklets.com from Textic Ltd.
(44) [0] 77 68479904
From: Alastair Campbell
Date: Mon, Mar 05 2007 2:40AM
Subject: Re: How does a Screen Reader work?
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Tedd wrote:
> I thank you for your recommendation. However, my machine is a Mac and
> Jaws isn't available to me.
Press cmd-F5 are read this with Safari for the basics:
http://alastairc.ac/notes/osx/voiceover/voiceover-basics/
(NB: I would have pointed to the MacPedia wiki
http://blindtechs.net/wiki/, but it seems to be down at the moment.)
Voiceover doesn't have great application support (Safari is fine
though), but it does have a very 'solid' feel compared to Windows based
screen readers.
I do have to add the usual caveat: Using a screen reader on a demo basis
when you aren't someone that needs to, means that you could easily make
changes that negatively impact other groups, or even other screen reader
users.
The best approach all round is to follow the best practices, based on
the W3C guidelines (WebAIM is a good source).
Kind regards,
-Alastair
--
Alastair Campbell | Director of User Experience
Nomensa Email Disclaimer:
http://www.nomensa.com/email-disclaimer.html
From: Joshue O Connor
Date: Mon, Mar 05 2007 3:30AM
Subject: Re: How does a Screen Reader work?
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Hi Tedd,
I recommend tracking down some blind users in your area and actually
hanging out with them for a bit and observing them use the screen
reader. This could be a powerful experience for you, especially if they
are power users with great speed and efficiency, and are fluent with the
application. As far as downloading JAWS et al yourself and having a go -
I daresay that at this point you will find it a more frustrating
experience than anything else. If you are not familiar with the modality
of screen reader interaction at all, I actually would not recommend it
_until_ you have a better idea of what is going on.
That may get some peoples hackles up on the list - but I say this
because screen readers are complex applications and going in to test
your websites could be a disaster as you may not know if you are doing
something wrong with the screen reader, or is it your code, you may not
even know how to recognise what is right or wrong (??)
So it may be a more existential experience than a practical evidence
gathering one.
Josh
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From: tedd
Date: Mon, Mar 05 2007 6:40AM
Subject: Re: How does a Screen Reader work?
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>Hi Tedd,
>
>I recommend tracking down some blind users in your area and actually
>hanging out with them for a bit and observing them use the screen
>reader. This could be a powerful experience for you, especially if they
>are power users with great speed and efficiency, and are fluent with the
>application. As far as downloading JAWS et al yourself and having a go -
>I daresay that at this point you will find it a more frustrating
>experience than anything else. If you are not familiar with the modality
>of screen reader interaction at all, I actually would not recommend it
>_until_ you have a better idea of what is going on.
Great idea. I wonder if there is a way to do this via the net. Are
there any blind readers on this list?
>That may get some peoples hackles up on the list - but I say this
>because screen readers are complex applications and going in to test
>your websites could be a disaster as you may not know if you are doing
>something wrong with the screen reader, or is it your code, you may not
>even know how to recognise what is right or wrong (??)
It's good to exercise one's hackles every once in a while.
>So it may be a more existential experience than a practical evidence
>gathering one.
I agree, one can write better accounting software if you know
something about accounting.
Thanks,
tedd
--
-------
http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com
From: tedd
Date: Mon, Mar 05 2007 8:10AM
Subject: Re: How does a Screen Reader work?
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Hi Travis:
It appears that top posting is preferable here, so I'll continue the practice.
You said:
>* The page refreshes twice when the "Speak Captcha" button is pressed. When
>a page refreshes the screen reader will read the new page. Thus presently
>the audio and the screen reader both are speaking at the same time; which is
>a rather difficult situation. The user can silence the screen reader, but
>needs to be quick about it.
I understand -- I'll work on that. This is the type of feedback I need.
You said:
>* Again, the page is refreshed when the "Speak Captcha" button is pressed.
>While the audio is playing, the edit field is not present for the user to
>type. This causes the user to have to remember the sequence of keystrokes
>until after the page refreshes, and the edit field is navigated to and
>typing can begin.
The spoken word in the previous link is delivered by use of html
background sound via <BGSOUND> or <EMBED> tags. Unfortunately, those
tags cannot be written after the document loads. Even if I were to
use ajax, browsers require a refresh for those tags.
However, what I can do is to use FLASH to deliver the sound without
refreshing. It works for sighted users who can find the icon, but I
don't know how a blind user could "click the icon" as provided here:
http://sperling.com/examples/captcha1/
I'm so close to getting this to work, but can't seem to connect. All
I need to find is a way for a blind user to activate the Flash icon
-- any suggestions?
Also, this second example uses different type sound files, so that
might be a problem, but I don't know.
you said:
> The longer the captcha the more problemmatic this will be.
I agree that the longer the captcha the more problematic this will
be. However, studies have shown that three character retention for
sighted users is not a problem.
http://symboldomains.com/sperling.html
I am assuming, and I may be wrong, that remembering three characters
sounds for blind users won't be a problem either.
As for the those who may want to employ my technique, it will be hard
coded to just three characters. The reason for its use is to deter
spam bots and such. I think that one in a thousand chance should be
sufficient protection for most blogs and other such places of concern.
As for other disabilities being locked out -- I'll work on that when
I complete this task.
As for VoiceOver, I'm aware of it, but have not worked with it. You
see, I was developing a "blind" browser for the Mac that would parse
text from web pages and speak it to the user. However, when I heard
of VoiceOver being developed, I stopped development.
As I said, any help will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
tedd
--- previous correspondences
At 10:12 PM -0600 3/3/07, Travis Roth wrote:
>Hi Tedd,
>
>Mac has a screen reader as well. It is called VoiceOver, and ships as part
>of OS 10.4 and later. I understand that it is not as far along developed as
>its Windows counterparts at this time.
>
>Observation on your captcha demo:
>* It is similar to Google's, and the audio quality seems similar.
>* The page refreshes twice when the "Speak Captcha" button is pressed. When
>a page refreshes the screen reader will read the new page. Thus presently
>the audio and the screen reader both are speaking at the same time; which is
>a rather difficult situation. The user can silence the screen reader, but
>needs to be quick about it.
>* Again, the page is refreshed when the "Speak Captcha" button is pressed.
>While the audio is playing, the edit field is not present for the user to
>type. This causes the user to have to remember the sequence of keystrokes
>until after the page refreshes, and the edit field is navigated to and
>typing can begin. The longer the captcha the more problemmatic this will be.
>
>* Would be better if user could type as the characters are heard. To do
>this, do not refresh the page, use some JavaScrit / Ajax techniques here.
>* This technique of using sound will work for those who can hear and
>understand reasonably well. However, deaf-blind users, and certain other
>hard of hearing users will still be locked out.
>
>Travis Roth
>Production Manager
>TecAccess, LLC
>(804) 749-8646 (office)
>(402) 466-0907 (direct)
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>www.TecAccess.net
>Experts in Section 508 Compliance & Accessibility
>
>NOTICE: This communication may contain privileged or other confidential
>information. If you are not the intended recipient or believe that you may
>have
>received this communication in error, please reply to the sender indicating
>that fact and delete the copy you received. Thank you.
>
>
From: Roberto Modica
Date: Mon, Mar 05 2007 8:50AM
Subject: Re: How does a Screen Reader work?
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Hi Again Ted,
Just found the book, there is an accessibility panel in flash for movies,
you should be able to set the label and make your movie accessible by using
that panel.
Rob
From: Roberto Modica
Date: Mon, Mar 05 2007 9:00AM
Subject: Re: How does a Screen Reader work?
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Hi Tedd,
There are ways to make flash accessible to screen readers. I personally
don't use any flash but I have read about making your flash accessible to
screen readers. One way would be to provide a label to your button
describing its purpose. You should also make sure that you provide keyboard
access to the button as well. I can't help you on a technical aspect, as I
currently don't know much about flash in that way.
Hope this helps a bit.
Rob
From: tedd
Date: Mon, Mar 05 2007 11:00AM
Subject: Re: How does a Screen Reader work?
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Hi Travis:
You said:
>* The page refreshes twice when the "Speak Captcha" button is pressed. When
>a page refreshes the screen reader will read the new page. Thus presently
>the audio and the screen reader both are speaking at the same time; which is
>a rather difficult situation. The user can silence the screen reader, but
>needs to be quick about it.
I think I fixed your concerns, please review:
http://sperling.com/examples/captcha
Is this better?
Thanks for your review
tedd
--
-------
http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com
From: Mark Magennis
Date: Tue, Mar 06 2007 5:40AM
Subject: Re: How does a Screen Reader work?
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> (NB: I would have pointed to the MacPedia wiki
> http://blindtechs.net/wiki/, but it seems to be down at the moment.)
It's been down for a long time Alastair. Couple of months at least.
Mark
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From: Tim Beadle
Date: Wed, Mar 07 2007 2:10AM
Subject: Re: How does a Screen Reader work?
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On 05/03/07, tedd < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> It appears that top posting is preferable here, so I'll continue the practice.
A quick point: I don't personally think top-posting is preferable,
here or anywhere else :)
As Joe Clark had it in his e-mail signature:
--This.
--What's wrong with top-posting?
Lots of people do it, though, and we had a discussion about quoting
style a while ago.
The quoting style you used (interleaved) is fine, though.
Regards,
Tim
From: Travis Roth
Date: Wed, Mar 07 2007 11:00AM
Subject: Re: How does a Screen Reader work?
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Tedd wrote:
"However, what I can do is to use FLASH to deliver the sound without
refreshing. It works for sighted users who can find the icon, but I
don't know how a blind user could "click the icon" as provided here:
http://sperling.com/examples/captcha1/
"
Yes, this Flash is not accessible. It is possible to make buttons in Flash
that are acessible. I am not a Flash developer though so I cannot help you
with specifics.
Also it may be possible to use HTML links that use JavaScript to control the
Flash.
Travis Roth
Production Manager
TecAccess, LLC
(804) 749-8646 (office)
(402) 466-0907 (direct)
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
www.TecAccess.net
Experts in Section 508 Compliance & Accessibility
NOTICE: This communication may contain privileged or other confidential
information. If you are not the intended recipient or believe that you may
have
received this communication in error, please reply to the sender indicating
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From: Travis Roth
Date: Wed, Mar 07 2007 11:10AM
Subject: Re: How does a Screen Reader work?
← Previous message | No next message
Hi Tedd,
"I think I fixed your concerns, please review:
http://sperling.com/examples/captcha
"
It is an interesting approach. However, since a new window is created, it
still causes focus to change.
I tested this with the JAWS screen reader, and it reread the main page after
activating the "speak captcha" link.
I believe this is due to it thinking that a new page/window opened, then it
was returned to a third page (even though it was the first page) so it
wanted to read the new page.
I do like that you have eliminated the original intermediating page, which
saves some reading and a page load.
Travis Roth
Production Manager
TecAccess, LLC
(804) 749-8646 (office)
(402) 466-0907 (direct)
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
www.TecAccess.net
Experts in Section 508 Compliance & Accessibility
NOTICE: This communication may contain privileged or other confidential
information. If you are not the intended recipient or believe that you may
have
received this communication in error, please reply to the sender indicating
that fact and delete the copy you received. Thank you.